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Glowingsun
April 9th, 2009, 02:47 AM
I alsways misprounce teh sabbats. I say it the way I see it. Like Samhain ( I say it like Sam-hane). And I say Beltaine as Belt-ain. Imbolc as Im-bulk. Lammas as Lamaze. and so forth. And your all probably thinking I'm some sort of pagan dunce, right?

Calli
April 9th, 2009, 03:45 AM
Don't worry about it. So what? Who do you need to impress? If they are more concerned about how you pronounce things than what you have to say, they don't matter anyway.

My sister, who is a very spiritual person, and the first person I call with spiritual stuff, says "Sam-hain." It doesn't diminish her one bit in my eyes.

Sionnach le Fey
April 9th, 2009, 05:30 AM
You can pronounce the sabbats however you want. There's no 'rule' within Paganism that states you have to say them a certain way. If you feel more comfortable saying them how they're written, then do it :)

Nuadu
April 9th, 2009, 06:09 AM
You can pronounce the sabbats however you want. There's no 'rule' within Paganism that states you have to say them a certain way. If you feel more comfortable saying them how they're written, then do it :)

Thats true to an extent. I would extend the statement to include 'unless you are calling the Sabbts traditional celebrations from a specific culture'. In General Wicca, Druidry, Shamanism and Hermetacism are not traditional to the cultures that those words originate in. So you can pronounce them the way you like if your path falls under those headings.

Its not a simple thing to pronounce those words 'correctly' anyway. They are Irish in origin and there are aknowleged dialects of contemporary Irish with varying pronouciations. For example Samhain could be Sawun, Sawan, Sawane, Savain or Savan. Our language like our culture and our religion is heavily regionalised. The older the language is the more regionalised it would have been and Scottish and Manx are different again.

I would think its a waste of time trying to be 'Correct'

of black birds
April 9th, 2009, 10:00 AM
Maybe I'm the minority, but I feel that once you learn the correct spelling I'd make sure I'd say it correctly, otherwise you're just being lazy. I'd say Sam-hain if I'm referring to the punk band, otherwise I use the correct pronunciation.

I generally have trouble pronouncing words due to English being my second language, but I'm a stickler for doing things as they should. Example, if a band I listen to wants a specific pronounciation for their name, I pronounce it how they want it, not how I feel I think it is. Same with everything else. When I mispronounced "saLmon" I was corrected. The same for "Hegemon." The same would apply with pronouncing the name of a deity, spirit or runes.

monsnoleedra
April 9th, 2009, 10:18 AM
I personaly think it's up to the person speaking the word at the time. To many words have one sound in English, another in Latin, another in Greek, etc, etc, etc. That in itself does not even take into consideration the regional or sub-regional ascents and such that further color the words sound.

Sort of like the sound of Potato (strong O), Patato (strong Ah), Putato (strong UGH), Patatter, Tatter yet all refer to the same thing. Or like the usge of the word Creek. It could be Crick, Creak, Crook or some other variant.

Nuadu wrote:


In General Wicca, Druidry, Shamanism and Hermetacism are not traditional to the cultures that those words originate in. So you can pronounce them the way you like if your path falls under those headings.

I would further add that with the exception of Wicca the other's may not, to probally will not, use them at all.



Its not a simple thing to pronounce those words 'correctly' anyway. They are Irish in origin


I would say some are more likely a variant of Celtic more so than Irish. Granted Irish kicks my butt as it is without even considering the P or Q (think that is right been a while) variants of Celtic.

Louisvillian
April 10th, 2009, 11:58 AM
I alsways misprounce teh sabbats. I say it the way I see it. Like Samhain ( I say it like Sam-hane). And I say Beltaine as Belt-ain. Imbolc as Im-bulk. Lammas as Lamaze. and so forth. And your all probably thinking I'm some sort of pagan dunce, right?
I don't think it really matters, generally. Unless you are specifically trying to be historically correct with names.
Like, me, I'm a history geek; so I'd feel bad if I didn't try for correct name pronunciation. But not everyone is like that; it's up to you.

Besides, only a few neopagan religions follow the eight well-known Sabbats as a single wheel of the year, because they're borrowed from several cultural backgrounds while most neopagan religions centre on a specific culture.
And even so, those eight holidays are celebrated very differently from how they were historically, for various reasons. So, it's not a really big deal.

Deerwoman
April 10th, 2009, 01:27 PM
As a pagan active in my local community, when someone comes to an event and mispronounces the name of the sabbat or a deity, the rest of us know they are newbies - either to the path, or to real life interaction with the community. Doesn't mean we think less of that person - just that we know they're new. However, the more you know the more likely you are to impress community members and possibly get invited to all the non-public events - it's worth it.

Luckily a lovely pagan woman who created a Wiccan site for beginners also created a pronunciation page:

http://www.glasstemple.com/basics/index.php?conjure=pronoun

Nox_Mortus
April 10th, 2009, 06:25 PM
I would say some are more likely a variant of Celtic more so than Irish. Granted Irish kicks my butt as it is without even considering the P or Q (think that is right been a while) variants of Celtic.

Well if you want to talk about languages Irish is member of the Celtic language family (as are Scotish Gaelic, Welsh, Manx and Cornish)


IMO, you really should learn and use the correct pronunciations.

monsnoleedra
April 10th, 2009, 06:42 PM
Well if you want to talk about languages Irish is member of the Celtic language family

Understood but in the context of the statement that the terms are Irish I was simply pointing out that they fell under the broader notion of Celtic but not specifically of Irish origin.

Nuadu
April 10th, 2009, 07:39 PM
Understood but in the context of the statement that the terms are Irish I was simply pointing out that they fell under the broader notion of Celtic but not specifically of Irish origin.

Really its all perspective.
An aquaintence of mine has a sharp as blades saying "Call me a Celt call me a Gael just dont call me early in the morning". I consider myself Irish, my ancestry and the entire history of my culture Irish as do most people in Ireland but that doesnt matter to anyone but me so call me what you like if it helps.

On the subject of pronunciation I was thinking about the importance of rythm in chanting vis a vis spell work. Sometimes the comprehension of the word isnt as important as the way they are intoned. Ive met people who dont even use words just the set rythm to the chant and in that sense how a word is pronounced might be relevant. Though just saying the name of a festival the right way would still be unimportant to me.


*negative rant bit about pronunciation guides*
Its just my opinion but I believe pronunciation guides are wrong and damaging to languages. There is no universal High version or state sanctioned version of languages to refer to and those guides arent accounting natural regional variation. They are misrepresenting the language and in essence doing away with portions of it that they as outsiders to the culture do not have a use for.

Another important point is where Irish pronunciation is concerned the version of the language guides give would be considered the least culturally correct versions possible. I live in Leinster so it should compliment me that my version of the language is the one on all the pronunciation guides but its worth remembering that Leinster is considered the least culturally Irish of all the provinces and Dublin where the highest concetration of the population of Leinster exists is considered the least culturally Irish county.

I think its pure pretention to give pronunciation guides and Ive never met an Irish author thats given one in a book even though they are native speakers and could offer definative guides. I suppose its the newbie idea recycled. People new to Wicca 'misprounounce' words and people new to Irish Culture think they are pronouncing things 'correctly'.

Darth Brooks
April 11th, 2009, 12:35 AM
I prefer to spell the word sabbath as sabbath, the Judaic way. And in my particular tradition we always treated the sabbath as a weekly thing, not just a four-time-of-year thing. Since it's supposed to be on the seventh day and Saturday is the seventh day, makes sense to me it should be on Saturday, except I agree with Judaism that it begins at sundown on Friday nights, so technically it spans from Friday evening to Saturday evening, or at least that's my way of thinking. Of course, Christians are not required to celebrate the sabbath the same way, and neither is anyone else. It's fascinating to me how the idea of the sabbath has become important to so many of these different traditions, pagan and Abrahamic alike.

When it comes to the big festivals of the year, which I typically just call festivals, I generally refer to them by Egyptian equivalents, except that since nobody seems to be exactly sure just what dates were when on the Egyptian calendar, I make the best possible approximations I can. What most people think of as Halloween, I think of as the night when Set slays Osiris, and what most pagans think of as Beltaine, I think of as the night when Osiris comes back to sleep with Isis, etc. (For me it's not so much a matter of "holy days" as it is one of "holy nights.") But that's really a bit long-winded for most people (who don't have any idea what I'm going on about) so I typically just refer to the holidays by their most commonly-accepted names in everyday discussion.

ETA: Oh yeah, and I consider Friday the Thirteenth a big deal, since (for me) it falls on the sabbath and thirteen is an important number in my tradition, being the number of pieces that were left of Osiris' body after Set stole His...well, you know.

Incendia
April 11th, 2009, 12:55 AM
For what it's worth... http://www.thestonepentacle.com/project/dictionary.html#sabbat