Ben Gruagach
November 6th, 2002, 03:38 PM
I just had to get this off my chest in a place where I knew people would understand me.
Let me explain a bit...
I've been active in the pagan community for quite a while now. I started buying pagan books (like the Farrar's "Witches Bible" and Starhawk's "The Spiral Dance") back when I was fourteen. I told my friends at high school I considered myself Wiccan. It wasn't until I was at university back in the 1980s that I met up with others and did anything in a group. So all told, I think I can honestly say I've been a Wiccan now for around twenty years.
I've read a lot. I mean a LOT. There are books everywhere in my house. Everyone who knows me knows I'm a "bibliophile" - I just LOVE books. My personal collection of books on Wicca, magick, and the occult is rather extensive. I probably should go back to school and become a librarian, as I love books and information so much. I'm also an eclectic Wiccan, and mostly self-taught. But it's not like I've just read a couple books and then decided I'm an expert. I've read an awful lot, and have things to share, but I know I'm not an expert, whatever that is.
Anyway, being the infohound I am, I love searching out information on the internet and reading (and often also participating) in discussions on occult and magickal topics. I've participated in discussions that were really focussed mostly on community and fellowship (i.e. getting along and socializing rather than exchanging information or debating issues), as well as information-exchange and debate forums. Some places, like MysticWicks, are great because there is a mixture of the different types - some people come mostly for the community feeling, others share information, and some get involved in debates (like in the Politics sections, or sometimes in the History or Theology sections.) Most people are polite, though, and the heated debates don't often get out of hand.
One of the other places I go, which I'll not name, touts itself as being a place for scholarly debate on Wiccan and modern Pagan topics. I'm all for debate, which in my mind must be scholarly and respectful or else it's really just flame wars. There is a difference between debating different sides of an issue and insulting other participants.
In this other forum I've seen some interesting debates that were actual debates, with interesting details brought out which I've appreciated. I don't think that a debate means people have to come to an agreement on the topic - life would be pretty boring if we all agreed on absolutely everything! Unfortunately, despite the presence of moderators who are supposed to help keep things going smoothly, debates often transform into insult and what in other forums would be called "trolling." You know, purposefully misunderstanding someone's posts and replying in a way to antagonize.
What really got me though was that the people who were often doing the insulting and "trolling" were people who were identified as moderators.
I saw it happen in one debate, and a poster who I had come to admire (she posted all sorts of interesting experiences, and was always respectful even when she disagreed) became the target of this clique of "more witchy than thou" posters who included a few moderators, and ended up getting the woman to leave the forum altogether.
My big mistake, I guess, was what I did next. I posted a private message to one of the moderators and expressed my concern that people were bashing other participants, and that this was what I thought was supposed to be against the forum rules.
Well, the moderator wrote back to me a few days later to say he'd shared my concerns with the other moderators and they decided I was wrong, and if I didn't like their forum I could leave too.
I've lain pretty low there since then. But being the optimistic person I am, I ventured back yesterday and saw an interesting thread. People were discussing a historical point about Wicca, so I posted a message summarizing (and I thought clarifying) the issue. Big mistake! I should have just kept my fingers from typing at all.
Two responses to my post came into the thread - both of them insulting to me. Both of them from moderators. Neither of the posts addressed any of the issues of the thread - they were just one or two sentences each, rather thinly veiled insults.
It's clear to me that in that forum there is a strong "clique" ruled by the moderators, with their own idea of what is "politically correct" within their realm. I understand that rules are necessary, as they help to keep us organized. But it's annoying to me when the stated rules that participants are presented when they go to this site are not followed by the dominant clique - it's really just their playground, where they feel free to insult others and play "witchier than thou" as some sort of ego trip.
MysticWicks seems to me to be mostly above that sort of thing. There seems to be enough diversity in the moderators here that the "political correctness" forcing others to conform isn't allowed to get out of hand. People are allowed to disagree here - and if you do disagree, you aren't insulted or encouraged to leave.
What have others experienced? Does anyone have some suggestions for how we can make the Pagan community in general more healthy by overcoming these sorts of infantile ego trips? How do you respond when these sorts of things happen? Has anyone seen an ugly discussion turn around - and what made the difference?
I personally think that problems like these weaken our community. Especially when a forum touts itself as "scholarly," it makes us look like a laughingstock when insults and trolling are permitted to pass for scholarly debate.
I feel much better now!
Let me explain a bit...
I've been active in the pagan community for quite a while now. I started buying pagan books (like the Farrar's "Witches Bible" and Starhawk's "The Spiral Dance") back when I was fourteen. I told my friends at high school I considered myself Wiccan. It wasn't until I was at university back in the 1980s that I met up with others and did anything in a group. So all told, I think I can honestly say I've been a Wiccan now for around twenty years.
I've read a lot. I mean a LOT. There are books everywhere in my house. Everyone who knows me knows I'm a "bibliophile" - I just LOVE books. My personal collection of books on Wicca, magick, and the occult is rather extensive. I probably should go back to school and become a librarian, as I love books and information so much. I'm also an eclectic Wiccan, and mostly self-taught. But it's not like I've just read a couple books and then decided I'm an expert. I've read an awful lot, and have things to share, but I know I'm not an expert, whatever that is.
Anyway, being the infohound I am, I love searching out information on the internet and reading (and often also participating) in discussions on occult and magickal topics. I've participated in discussions that were really focussed mostly on community and fellowship (i.e. getting along and socializing rather than exchanging information or debating issues), as well as information-exchange and debate forums. Some places, like MysticWicks, are great because there is a mixture of the different types - some people come mostly for the community feeling, others share information, and some get involved in debates (like in the Politics sections, or sometimes in the History or Theology sections.) Most people are polite, though, and the heated debates don't often get out of hand.
One of the other places I go, which I'll not name, touts itself as being a place for scholarly debate on Wiccan and modern Pagan topics. I'm all for debate, which in my mind must be scholarly and respectful or else it's really just flame wars. There is a difference between debating different sides of an issue and insulting other participants.
In this other forum I've seen some interesting debates that were actual debates, with interesting details brought out which I've appreciated. I don't think that a debate means people have to come to an agreement on the topic - life would be pretty boring if we all agreed on absolutely everything! Unfortunately, despite the presence of moderators who are supposed to help keep things going smoothly, debates often transform into insult and what in other forums would be called "trolling." You know, purposefully misunderstanding someone's posts and replying in a way to antagonize.
What really got me though was that the people who were often doing the insulting and "trolling" were people who were identified as moderators.
I saw it happen in one debate, and a poster who I had come to admire (she posted all sorts of interesting experiences, and was always respectful even when she disagreed) became the target of this clique of "more witchy than thou" posters who included a few moderators, and ended up getting the woman to leave the forum altogether.
My big mistake, I guess, was what I did next. I posted a private message to one of the moderators and expressed my concern that people were bashing other participants, and that this was what I thought was supposed to be against the forum rules.
Well, the moderator wrote back to me a few days later to say he'd shared my concerns with the other moderators and they decided I was wrong, and if I didn't like their forum I could leave too.
I've lain pretty low there since then. But being the optimistic person I am, I ventured back yesterday and saw an interesting thread. People were discussing a historical point about Wicca, so I posted a message summarizing (and I thought clarifying) the issue. Big mistake! I should have just kept my fingers from typing at all.
Two responses to my post came into the thread - both of them insulting to me. Both of them from moderators. Neither of the posts addressed any of the issues of the thread - they were just one or two sentences each, rather thinly veiled insults.
It's clear to me that in that forum there is a strong "clique" ruled by the moderators, with their own idea of what is "politically correct" within their realm. I understand that rules are necessary, as they help to keep us organized. But it's annoying to me when the stated rules that participants are presented when they go to this site are not followed by the dominant clique - it's really just their playground, where they feel free to insult others and play "witchier than thou" as some sort of ego trip.
MysticWicks seems to me to be mostly above that sort of thing. There seems to be enough diversity in the moderators here that the "political correctness" forcing others to conform isn't allowed to get out of hand. People are allowed to disagree here - and if you do disagree, you aren't insulted or encouraged to leave.
What have others experienced? Does anyone have some suggestions for how we can make the Pagan community in general more healthy by overcoming these sorts of infantile ego trips? How do you respond when these sorts of things happen? Has anyone seen an ugly discussion turn around - and what made the difference?
I personally think that problems like these weaken our community. Especially when a forum touts itself as "scholarly," it makes us look like a laughingstock when insults and trolling are permitted to pass for scholarly debate.
I feel much better now!