I don't hate christians

[Sekushi Cho]

As a pagan, I've found that there is a rather large stigma in the pagan community revolving around christians. More often than not, they are considered the enemy. They are the group we keep our secrets from and try to deceive into believing we are something we are not when they ask too many questions. I'm going to come clean... that this makes me very sad. I don't believe that there should be so much hatred in our community against a specific group. There are many Christians I know who are very welcoming and accepting of different lifestyles, who aren't pushy about their path and who simply don't deserve to be marginalized.

Am I wrong in my view? Is there not as much hate in pagans as I think? I know that christians can be... well... irksome at times. But I just don't believe they are worthy of group specific disdain. Is there anyone here who is willing to back me up on this?

Edit: Ok, I've come to understand more clearly how people really think and it seems, to a certain degree, that I was mistaken. Things are a bit deeper than full hatred or anything of the sort. But keep conversing, if you feel the need to. :thumbsup:

[TheWomanMonster]

I think there are a lot of people that feel they have been wronged by a christian but I wouldn't call it 'hate'. There will always be those people who feel they have to attack others out of fear of being attacked themselves...

[Darth Brooks]

Am I wrong in my view?

Not by any means.


Is there not as much hate in pagans as I think?

Pagans are human like anyone else, and like all other humans, many cannot resist the temptation to see "the other side" as inferior, bad, or evil in some way.


I know that christians can be... well... irksome at times.

Many can be, but not all.


But I just don't believe they are worthy of group specific disdain. Is there anyone here who is willing to back me up on this?

If you run a search in this subforum alone, I think you will find this subject is discussed on an almost regular basis. There are many people here who agree with you, including myself.

[Cassie]

If you run a search in this subforum alone, I think you will find this subject is discussed on an almost regular basis. There are many people here who agree with you, including myself.
Exactly.
There are some Christians who do cause Pagans real problems and it can be very difficult for pagans who live in particularly narrow minded Christian communities. (Not that Pagans are immune from being narrow minded themselves sometimes). But in the end, there are good and bad in both communities.

[Invidosa]

As a pagan, I've found that there is a rather large stigma in the pagan community revolving around christians. More often than not, they are considered the enemy. They are the group we keep our secrets from and try to deceive into believing we are something we are not when they ask too many questions. I'm going to come clean... that this makes me very sad. I don't believe that there should be so much hatred in our community against a specific group. There are many Christians I know who are very welcoming and accepting of different lifestyles, who aren't pushy about their path and who simply don't deserve to be marginalized.

Am I wrong in my view? Is there not as much hate in pagans as I think? I know that christians can be... well... irksome at times. But I just don't believe they are worthy of group specific disdain. Is there anyone here who is willing to back me up on this?

what exactly do you mean by the bolded statement?

and i don't hate "Christians" i do have a real problem with dogmatic nazis of all makes models and faiths.

I guess i think alot of pagans get really tired of being preached at (actually, i had someone throw a bible at me once) and constantly told that we are damnned. Personally, i just walk away, which is sad to me because i would love to understand these people, but i digress.

oh the other hand, i have found there are alot of Christians who will have a thoughtful conversation with me about faith without bashing me over the head with it.

i guess what i'm trying to say is we have to look at people (Christian or otherwise) on a one by one basis, everything else is bigotry.

[Cunae]

"Hate" is a strong word. Do you mean generally dislike or actually scorn?

In either case, I see a lot more dislike/scorn between Christian denominations than I've ever experienced among pagans. Maybe it depends on the Christian, but I find it hard to believe any pagans would be hateful toward a Christian for any reason. That doesn't seem to be what their faiths teach.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

many cannot resist the temptation to see
"the other side" as inferior, bad, or evil in some way.


Ummm...Darth...

"Resisting temptation" , is a very Christian concept...:smileroll

I am Pagan...I love temptation , and relish the experience ,
in whatever way , when applicable...

Yet , on this subject , I generally agree with Invidosa's post...

Especially this :

"and i don't hate "Christians" i do have a real problem
with dogmatic nazis of all makes models and faiths."

I do believe that covers it...:bigredgri

[Lunacie]

"Hate" is a strong word. Do you mean generally dislike or actually scorn?

In either case, I see a lot more dislike/scorn between Christian denominations than I've ever experienced among pagans. Maybe it depends on the Christian, but I find it hard to believe any pagans would be hateful toward a Christian for any reason. That doesn't seem to be what their faiths teach.

Because it was worth repeating.

Why are Pagans the bad guys for having a hate on against Christians, when many of them are busy hating each other? Such infighting seems to be more accepted, eh?

[Against The Tide]

I'm cool with Christians. I even used to go to some of the religious camps just even though I was not one of them. I've had some rough treatment in the past, but no different that when I was a RC going to RC school :S
Pagans and Christians share alot of core values. Everyone knows that there are bad Christians who think that their ethics only apply to the treatment of OTHER Christians, who tend to give them a bad name, there are also those who don't understand alternative spirituality and try to convert - but they have the good intentions, thinking they will save our souls. So I don't take it too personally :)
I think both faiths can get along very well. Yes we see many things differently, but I feel that tolerance and understanding of other faiths strengthens your own.

[aluokaloo]

As a pagan, I've found that there is a rather large stigma in the pagan community revolving around christians. More often than not, they are considered the enemy. They are the group we keep our secrets from and try to deceive into believing we are something we are not when they ask too many questions. I'm going to come clean... that this makes me very sad. I don't believe that there should be so much hatred in our community against a specific group. There are many Christians I know who are very welcoming and accepting of different lifestyles, who aren't pushy about their path and who simply don't deserve to be marginalized.

Am I wrong in my view? Is there not as much hate in pagans as I think? I know that christians can be... well... irksome at times. But I just don't believe they are worthy of group specific disdain. Is there anyone here who is willing to back me up on this?

no your pretty right. pagans are human too which means that like all humans we as a community are prone to bigotry and bigots

[Meadhbh]

I agree I don't hate christians. I dislike it when any one of any faith feels like they know the right way to be and feel like they can force that view on every one else christian or no.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

There are more than values in common between pagan and christian, they share most holiday dates (and mythology), the core of christian belief is base on mithraism (sp) Zoroastrianism and Egyptian mystery religions.

I don't think it's the differences that piss people off. I think it's what they have in common that hits too close to home.

[Darth Brooks]

Ummm...Darth...

"Resisting temptation" , is a very Christian concept...:smileroll

Oh I'm sorry, I forgot. All Christian concepts come from some unidentified black hole in the middle of nowhere. They have absolutely no ties to earlier beliefs whatsoever, and they must be strictly quarantined for fear of infection. Shame on me, what was I thinking, daring to break quarantine like that? [/sarcasm] :crown:

[Clair de la Lune]

Exactly.
There are some Christians who do cause Pagans real problems and it can be very difficult for pagans who live in particularly narrow minded Christian communities. (Not that Pagans are immune from being narrow minded themselves sometimes). But in the end, there are good and bad in both communities.

Thank you. I would truly hate to be hated.:cutie: It would hurt my feelings. Especially around here. I expect better from you guys, than from say, the general public.

I see that there are people who are absolutely wonderful in every religion and non-religion (atheists). There are also people that once you meet them, you would like to run in the other direction...and that goes for every religion and non-religion too.

I am glad that other people see this and are not afraid to say so. That is what I love about our community here! We can say what is on our minds and be adults about it...and we don't have to hurt each other with it or fight about who is right or wrong...we can just co-exist.

[Calli]

I have so many thoughts on this. I hope I can express them all clearly.

First, in the United States, Christianity is the dominant religion. It follows that some of the minority religions might feel persecuted, particularly when they try to violate our Constitution and put their religion into our government and schools. There are Christian groups who are trying to do just that.

Secondly, I don't dislike people based on what religion they are, but I do have a strong doctrinal dislike for the religion itself. Many Christians take it very personally when told that I reject their god's "sacrifice," preferring to be responsible for my own behavior. If they have trouble understanding that dislike of their religion doesn't mean dislike of them personally, it's no wonder I may have trouble occasionally. I wonder how typical my feelings are?

And then there is my history of 20 years of feeling like a square peg in a round hole, trying to fit into a religion that wasn't right for me. That has left scars that may never heal. At the time, I couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. Now, I know it wasn't anything wrong with me, just that I was trying to be something I was never meant to be. Still, over the years, I was told many things that conflicted with what my spirit knew and felt, and it was a very confusing and painful time. I know, I know, it wasn't the religion itself, but people representing the religion telling me those things. Again, the lines blur sometimes.

I don't know many Christians who are accepting of my path, but if they are, I have no issue with them. In my experience, it's far more typical for them to tell me one version or another of "My way is the only way." Like I said on another thread, that behavior is unacceptable to me, and my issue is with the behavior. Still, when 90% of the Christians I've talked to have this behavior, it's a challenge not to label and group them all together, you know?

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I'll probally get smacked here for this but in my experience it is the "Playgans" that have the hatred of Christanity and it's followers. Most "Pagans" "Heathens" I know seperate the person from the religion. They maybe irratated with the individual(s) and thier actions but seperate the action from the religion.

Even then I don't think we hate them, we more so have no use for them nor tolerance of them. It's imply not worth our time or energy to remain focused upon them or utilize our energy worrying about what they think.

[Clair de la Lune]

I know. I myself can not stand to be around many Christians myself. Do I believe that Christ is MY personal savior? Yes. Does he have to be yours? No. Are you going to "hell" if you don't believe? (How the hell do I know?) If I had to take a guess...NO! I believe that...who knows? We could ALL be wrong. Who knows if you or I really exists NOW? I have a theory...but it would take a LONG time to explain...and could be more science fiction than fact. Not at all "Christian".

I guess that is why I really don't fit in with most Christians anyway. I THINK too much OUTSIDE THE BOOK!:bigredgri

[Lunacie]

I'll probally get smacked here for this but in my experience it is the "Playgans" that have the hatred of Christanity and it's followers. Most "Pagans" "Heathens" I know seperate the person from the religion. They maybe irratated with the individual(s) and thier actions but seperate the action from the religion.

Even then I don't think we hate them, we more so have no use for them nor tolerance of them. It's imply not worth our time or energy to remain focused upon them or utilize our energy worrying about what they think.

Hm, maybe it's the ones who feel guilt over leaving Christianity that hate Christians now? You know, the ones who are having trouble leaving the past behind and embracing something new and different.

[Raven Reed]

I don't hate christians. I don't even dislike christians. Some of my favorite people have been christian. I hate some behaviors that are exhibited in the name of christianity. Also, fundies of any flavor make me run screaming in the other direction. Doesn't matter what religion.

I am also a Unitarian Universalist, and one of the joys is that pagans and christians, and others, can rub elbows in church or the community without hard feelings.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Yeah...hope you got my joke too...:bigredgri

Although I am very serious , as far as my form of
pagan tradition...

Faery Tradition does not believe in the idea of temptation...

Totally alien to us...just as human laws , and morals...

Does not compute...

( no sarcasm )


Oh I'm sorry, I forgot. All Christian concepts come from some unidentified black hole in the middle of nowhere. They have absolutely no ties to earlier beliefs whatsoever, and they must be strictly quarantined for fear of infection. Shame on me, what was I thinking, daring to break quarantine like that? [/sarcasm] :crown:

[Clair de la Lune]

I don't hate christians. I don't even dislike christians. Some of my favorite people have been christian. I hate some behaviors that are exhibited in the name of christianity. Also, fundies of any flavor make me run screaming in the other direction. Doesn't matter what religion.

I am also a Unitarian Universalist, and one of the joys is that pagans and christians, and others, can rub elbows in church or the community without hard feelings.

I saw "fundies" and for a second I thought you were talking about something of the edible kind:giggle:..especially when you mentioned flavor. Oh, my. Where is my head at?

I do like what you said anyway, once I realized WHAT it was you were saying. :)

[Phoenix Blue]

Maybe it depends on the Christian, but I find it hard to believe any pagans would be hateful toward a Christian for any reason. That doesn't seem to be what their faiths teach.
It does happen, though ... some Pagans carried baggage with them from Christianity to their current religion. *Shrugs*

[Against The Tide]

Not every pagan path is a lovey dovey peaceful one, some branches (I shall mention no names) can be pretty intolerant to other faiths (and races grrr).

[Clair de la Lune]

Not every pagan path is a lovey dovey peaceful one, some branches (I shall mention no names) can be pretty intolerant to other faiths (and races grrr).

I guess that is the same no matter what race or religion (or non) that someone is. I am glad you brought it up though.

The only thing I am intolerant of is when people are deliberately hurting others, especially when the others are unable to defend themselves because they are too young, or are defenseless in some other way, or are animals. (Child abusers, rapists, elder abusers, animal abusers, etc. I will NOT tolerate!) I am not afraid to take a stand to protect others if they can't usually, or myself if I have to. I will not hesitate to protect those I love, but I prefer non-violent means when possible. (If I have to I will fight to the death.) I would never do it over something as simple as: I am a different color or ethnicity than you, or I am a different religion than you because to me, I see no reason why we can't get along or at least be polite to one another no matter our differences. If you leave me alone I will leave you alone. If you are nice to me, I will be nice to you back. I generally treat everyone as if they are going to be nice unless or until they prove to me that they should be on my avoid list in life. That's how I roll.:bigredgri

[Sekushi Cho]

Umm. Wow. I didn't expect as large a response as this. Well, first, let me say sorry if I've made a repeat thread. I guess I failed to use the search, which I usually do. I guess I was just lazy this morning. x3

Second, I appreciate seeing all kinds of different opinions. It's really changed my view of things. I suppose there is good and bad in all forms of religious belief. Still, in my personal opinion, it's never a good thing to assume anything about anyone.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

Second, I appreciate seeing all kinds of different opinions. It's really changed my view of things. I suppose there is good and bad in all forms of religious belief. Still, in my personal opinion, it's never a good thing to assume anything about anyone.

Definitely a good idea.

[David19]

As a pagan, I've found that there is a rather large stigma in the pagan community revolving around christians. More often than not, they are considered the enemy. They are the group we keep our secrets from and try to deceive into believing we are something we are not when they ask too many questions. I'm going to come clean... that this makes me very sad. I don't believe that there should be so much hatred in our community against a specific group. There are many Christians I know who are very welcoming and accepting of different lifestyles, who aren't pushy about their path and who simply don't deserve to be marginalized.

Am I wrong in my view? Is there not as much hate in pagans as I think? I know that christians can be... well... irksome at times. But I just don't believe they are worthy of group specific disdain. Is there anyone here who is willing to back me up on this?


Not by any means.



Pagans are human like anyone else, and like all other humans, many cannot resist the temptation to see "the other side" as inferior, bad, or evil in some way.



Many can be, but not all.



If you run a search in this subforum alone, I think you will find this subject is discussed on an almost regular basis. There are many people here who agree with you, including myself.

Like DB said, Pagans are human like everyone else, and you will get Pagan jerks and assholes and bigots, I know it's annoying, I've complained about them enough, but, it's just a fact of life. There are also Pagan homophobes. I think some Pagans just need a good psychotherapist and deal with their issues, 'cause, they clearly have some kind of repressed issues with the amount of time they spend criticizing Christians and Christianity (or Judaism, or Islam, etc). IMO, if you were really strong in your faith, you wouldn't feel the need to criticize other religions or paths, you would just keep your own religion to yourself, in your head, where it belongs, IMO. Unfortunately, some Pagans can't do that.


Exactly.
There are some Christians who do cause Pagans real problems and it can be very difficult for pagans who live in particularly narrow minded Christian communities. (Not that Pagans are immune from being narrow minded themselves sometimes). But in the end, there are good and bad in both communities.

QFT, especially the last part :) :thumbsup:.


"Hate" is a strong word. Do you mean generally dislike or actually scorn?

In either case, I see a lot more dislike/scorn between Christian denominations than I've ever experienced among pagans. Maybe it depends on the Christian, but I find it hard to believe any pagans would be hateful toward a Christian for any reason. That doesn't seem to be what their faiths teach.

I've seen it, not so much on this forum, but, elsewhere on Pagan forums.


Because it was worth repeating.

Why are Pagans the bad guys for having a hate on against Christians, when many of them are busy hating each other? Such infighting seems to be more accepted, eh?

For myself, I think the anti-Christian bias is more noticable, but, you're right some Pagans also love to complain about other Pagans (I think they just love to complain), like, they'll complain about Christians, Wiccans, eclectic Pagans, etc.


I'm cool with Christians. I even used to go to some of the religious camps just even though I was not one of them. I've had some rough treatment in the past, but no different that when I was a RC going to RC school :S
Pagans and Christians share alot of core values. Everyone knows that there are bad Christians who think that their ethics only apply to the treatment of OTHER Christians, who tend to give them a bad name, there are also those who don't understand alternative spirituality and try to convert - but they have the good intentions, thinking they will save our souls. So I don't take it too personally :)
I think both faiths can get along very well. Yes we see many things differently, but I feel that tolerance and understanding of other faiths strengthens your own.

QFT, and great points :) :thumbsup:.


no your pretty right. pagans are human too which means that like all humans we as a community are prone to bigotry and bigots

Again, definitely agreed :).

[Thunder]

I don't hate Christians .....

Me neither, they are delicious.:bigredgri

[Caitlin.ann]

Do you want a cookie? I mean really? A pat on the back? Simply because we're pagans doesn't make us hate Christians nor does it make us need to particularly like them either! We are all different and we all have our reasons for thinking the way we do. I don't hate Christians, many of them irritate me but I don't hate them. This just seems like another person getting on a pedestal saying "look at me I'm so tolerant and better than thou"!

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I don't care , and am under no requirement to care what someone's
intentions are...as soon as they attempt any type of coercion , or
conversion , they have crossed the line , and shall suffer my retribution...And yes , I feel GOOD about that...:bigredgri

"but they have the good intentions, thinking they will save our souls. So I don't take it too personally :)"

[Avalanche]

I hate some Christians. But it's the person, not the religion. It just so happens that they are Christian. Although, to tell the truth, there's only two people I really, really hate... don't know (or care) what, if any, religion they follow. Everyone else, it's more of a strong dislike that's more easily explained by saying I hate them. And I may strongly dislike some of these people because they are assholes about religion, but I'm pretty sure that even if we took that away, I'd still end up disliking them for other reasons.

I also love some Christians. Because they're awesome. I can even have religious discussions with my mother, who is Catholic. And she doesn't try to convert me or anything... I think she tries to understand, if anything. Same goes for my best friend. And my two roommates, although Gnostics really don't seem like they fit in the same boat as other Christians.

[Sekushi Cho]

Do you want a cookie? I mean really? A pat on the back? Simply because we're pagans doesn't make us hate Christians nor does it make us need to particularly like them either! We are all different and we all have our reasons for thinking the way we do. I don't hate Christians, many of them irritate me but I don't hate them. This just seems like another person getting on a pedestal saying "look at me I'm so tolerant and better than thou"!Yes, I love cookies. I'm sorry that you need to react with such hostility to my asking a simple question. And if you had even bothered to read any of the conversation that had followed, you would see that I've come to understand how things are, as well as you personal opinion. I don't see anything preachy about what I was asking, primarily because it was a question and secondly because I was leaving room open for debate. Please, don't be so caustic.

[Avalanche]

Yes, I love cookies. I'm sorry that you need to react with such hostility to my asking a simple question. And if you had even bothered to read any of the conversation that had followed, you would see that I've come to understand how things are, as well as you personal opinion. I don't see anything preachy about what I was asking, primarily because it was a question and secondly because I was leaving room open for debate. Please, don't be so caustic.

Can I have a cookie too? I like oatmeal raisin, but anything is good!

[Sekushi Cho]

Can I have a cookie too? I like oatmeal raisin, but anything is good!Lulz. You're asking the wrong person. I'm not handing out cookies. :hahugh:

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

Do you want a cookie? I mean really? A pat on the back? Simply because we're pagans doesn't make us hate Christians nor does it make us need to particularly like them either! We are all different and we all have our reasons for thinking the way we do. I don't hate Christians, many of them irritate me but I don't hate them. This just seems like another person getting on a pedestal saying "look at me I'm so tolerant and better than thou"!

Mmmmm cookies! Where do we pick them up? Is there a choice in what kind of cookie we get? I don't like shortbread.

[Cloaked Raven]

I know. I myself can not stand to be around many Christians myself. Do I believe that Christ is MY personal savior? Yes. Does he have to be yours? No. Are you going to "hell" if you don't believe? (How the hell do I know?) If I had to take a guess...NO! I believe that...who knows? We could ALL be wrong. Who knows if you or I really exists NOW? I have a theory...but it would take a LONG time to explain...and could be more science fiction than fact. Not at all "Christian".

I guess that is why I really don't fit in with most Christians anyway. I THINK too much OUTSIDE THE BOOK!:bigredgri
Clair, you and I think alike!! I'm on a Christian path myself, and you said pretty much what I think!! *high five*

I'm to the point where if I see anyone post a Christian prayer anywhere in a forum or something, I get upset and nauseated. That's why I generally avoid the Faith Forum in one music forum I belong to, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many Christian prayers posted in there for my taste..... :ugh:

[Caitlin.ann]

Yes, I love cookies. I'm sorry that you need to react with such hostility to my asking a simple question. And if you had even bothered to read any of the conversation that had followed, you would see that I've come to understand how things are, as well as you personal opinion. I don't see anything preachy about what I was asking, primarily because it was a question and secondly because I was leaving room open for debate. Please, don't be so caustic.

I'm sorry being blunt has been confused with hostility. Maybe a thicker skin is required? I have read the conversation, by the way.

Now being perfectly honest and blunt as I am, I am tired of this "all pagans must be this or that way". Paganism encompasses such a broad spectrum of religions that not all of us are going to think a like. I don't care if you love or hate them, but putting yourself on a pedestal originally was really unbecoming.

[Lunacie]

I'm sorry being blunt has been confused with hostility. Maybe a thicker skin is required? I have read the conversation, by the way.

Now being perfectly honest and blunt as I am, I am tired of this "all pagans must be this or that way". Paganism encompasses such a broad spectrum of religions that not all of us are going to think a like. I don't care if you love or hate them, but putting yourself on a pedestal originally was really unbecoming.

The majority of your post was blunt but honest. Being sarcastic and asking the OP if she wanted a cookie was totally unnecessary to make your point.

[spiral]

I'm sorry being blunt has been confused with hostility. Maybe a thicker skin is required? I have read the conversation, by the way.

Now being perfectly honest and blunt as I am, I am tired of this "all pagans must be this or that way". Paganism encompasses such a broad spectrum of religions that not all of us are going to think a like. I don't care if you love or hate them, but putting yourself on a pedestal originally was really unbecoming.

I think you might be confusing arrogance with a genuine question... People who put themselves on a pedestal don't usually welcome being proved wrong:



Am I wrong in my view?


On MysticWicks we're lucky enough to not see much Christian-focused hatred, but that doesn't mean Sekushi Cho hasn't experienced it elsewhere, and she's perfectly entitled to raise the topic if it concerns her.

[Caitlin.ann]

The majority of your post was blunt but honest. Being sarcastic and asking the OP if she wanted a cookie was totally unnecessary to make your point.

Sometimes I can't help it. :(

[Caitlin.ann]

I think you might be confusing arrogance with a genuine question... People who put themselves on a pedestal don't usually welcome being proved wrong:



On MysticWicks we're lucky enough to not see much Christian-focused hatred, but that doesn't mean Sekushi Cho hasn't experienced it elsewhere, and she's perfectly entitled to raise the topic if it concerns her.
But confusing every christian with those she knows from other messageboards is her own issue and not mine. I have seen all sides in my life and I don't view all Christians alike and nor do I judge all pagans a like.

[Lunacie]

Sometimes I can't help it. :(

Me either. :lol:

But that doesn't mean the other person needs to develop a thicker skin (sometimes it does, but not always).

[Athena-Nadine]

I'm sorry being blunt has been confused with hostility. Maybe a thicker skin is required? I have read the conversation, by the way.

Now being perfectly honest and blunt as I am, I am tired of this "all pagans must be this or that way". Paganism encompasses such a broad spectrum of religions that not all of us are going to think a like. I don't care if you love or hate them, but putting yourself on a pedestal originally was really unbecoming.
Where in this entire thread has anyone said "all pagans must be this or that way?" She asked a question based on her own personal observations, nothing more.

I've seen the hypocrisy of pagans preaching tolerance out of one side of their mouths and spewing insults toward those of the Abrahamic religions out the other time and time again over the years, even on this site. It is an issue, but it is no more an issue for pagans than it is for anyone else. We all have our own prejudices regardless of how we try to hide them, even from ourselves.

Why are Pagans the bad guys for having a hate on against Christians, when many of them are busy hating each other? Such infighting seems to be more accepted, eh?

I don't see anyone calling pagans the "bad guys" either.

Why can't a specific issue ever be addressed without trying to cloud it with what others do? What Christians do or don't do has nothing to do with this discussion.

[Caitlin.ann]

Where in this entire thread has anyone said "all pagans must be this or that way?" She asked a question based on her own personal observations, nothing more.

I've seen the hypocrisy of pagans preaching tolerance out of one side of their mouths and spewing insults toward those of the Abrahamic religions out the other time and time again over the years, even on this site. It is an issue, but it is no more an issue for pagans than it is for anyone else. We all have our own prejudices regardless of how we try to hide them, even from ourselves.


I don't see anyone calling pagans the "bad guys" either.

Why can't a specific issue ever be addressed without trying to cloud it with what others do? What Christians do or don't do has nothing to do with this discussion.

I didn't say they said that but it tends to be everywhere that people assume pagans should be all the same. You have seen it before if not here.

[Lunacie]

Where in this entire thread has anyone said "all pagans must be this or that way?" She asked a question based on her own personal observations, nothing more.

I've seen the hypocrisy of pagans preaching tolerance out of one side of their mouths and spewing insults toward those of the Abrahamic religions out the other time and time again over the years, even on this site. It is an issue, but it is no more an issue for pagans than it is for anyone else. We all have our own prejudices regardless of how we try to hide them, even from ourselves.


I don't see anyone calling pagans the "bad guys" either.

Why can't a specific issue ever be addressed without trying to cloud it with what others do? What Christians do or don't do has nothing to do with this discussion.

This is the second time this week I've seen a similar topic posted - and it's not the first time by far I've seen this discussion about how Pagans are supposed to be so tolerant that we can't ever have a personal opinion about how foolish we think another religion or another person is being. Like someone else here asked, where is it written that all Pagans are supposed to have this totally tolerant attitude and never ever say anything negative about another religion?

I do believe that everyone has the right to believe whatever they believe, and practice whatever they practice, and have whatever opinion they have - but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it or never say anything against it. Seems like other religions get a free pass to criticize and condemn that Pagans don't get. Since Christianity is the religion being discussed in this thread, that's the religion I made reference to. Probably should have explained it more like this the first time instead of making it look like I was only comparing Pagans to Christians.

[Sekushi Cho]

Thanks for all the insight, you guys. If I ever came off as preachy, it was most certainly unintended. Sometimes it just seems to me that few pagans have anything positive to say about the christian community, but I was mistaken, as there seems to be more of a mixed view amongst pagans. I'd also like to add... that I'm a boy. Not a she.... x3

[Sekushi Cho]

I didn't say they said that but it tends to be everywhere that people assume pagans should be all the same. You have seen it before if not here.I believe in my OP, I was asking if any pagans were different, not implying that all of us should act the same. A little hostility is bound to happen if someone is violating your personal boundaries with conversion tactics, but widespread disdain shouldn't be the way, which is my personal opinion. You're free to dislike whoever you want.

[Lunacie]

I believe in my OP, I was asking if any pagans were different, not implying that all of us should act the same. A little hostility is bound to happen if someone is violating your personal boundaries with conversion tactics, but widespread disdain shouldn't be the way, which is my personal opinion. You're free to dislike whoever you want.

You did generalize in your OP a bit, threw a dirty blanket over the whole Pagan community by saying "... a rather large stigma..." and "... more often than not ...". That likely made some of the responses a little defensive.

[Sekushi Cho]

You did generalize in your OP a bit, threw a dirty blanket over the whole Pagan community by saying "... a rather large stigma..." and "... more often than not ...". That likely made some of the responses a little defensive.Ok, well, that wasn't my intention, and I apologize for it. However, in my experience, that is the way things are, and I was hoping that other people could prove me wrong, which happened. Perhaps my wording could have been a little more forgiving. :weirdsmil

[Darth Brooks]

I'm sorry being blunt has been confused with hostility. Maybe a thicker skin is required? I have read the conversation, by the way.

Now being perfectly honest and blunt as I am, I am tired of this "all pagans must be this or that way". Paganism encompasses such a broad spectrum of religions that not all of us are going to think a like. I don't care if you love or hate them, but putting yourself on a pedestal originally was really unbecoming.

Maybe they could have phrased themselves better.

[Darth Brooks]

But confusing every christian with those she knows from other messageboards is her own issue and not mine. I have seen all sides in my life and I don't view all Christians alike and nor do I judge all pagans a like.

Actually I think that was the entire point of the OP.

[Darth Brooks]

I didn't say they said that but it tends to be everywhere that people assume pagans should be all the same. You have seen it before if not here.

I don't see anyone saying that we all need to be the same. I see somebody saying they think pagans can be prejudicial like everyone else. Which is true.

[Darth Brooks]

This is the second time this week I've seen a similar topic posted - and it's not the first time by far I've seen this discussion about how Pagans are supposed to be so tolerant that we can't ever have a personal opinion about how foolish we think another religion or another person is being. Like someone else here asked, where is it written that all Pagans are supposed to have this totally tolerant attitude and never ever say anything negative about another religion?

Well if we go by everything that Oberon Zell-Ravenheart, Margot Adler, Isaac Bonewits, and various other big names in Neopaganism have said, Neopaganism is supposed to thrive on diversity and tolerance. Though it is interesting to note that each of these people have exhibited their own forms of intolerance every now and again. It would be nice if they could make up their damn minds.


I do believe that everyone has the right to believe whatever they believe, and practice whatever they practice, and have whatever opinion they have - but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it or never say anything against it. Seems like other religions get a free pass to criticize and condemn that Pagans don't get.What makes you think that? If somebody was handing out "free passes," pagans apparently got one just like everybody else. Of course you don't have to agree with other religions or opinions, and I don't think anybody here has said otherwise. Nevertheless, there are many pagans who go too far in criticizing Christianity, just like there are many Christians who go too far in criticizing paganism. Criticism can be a good thing when it is constructive, but not when it is hateful.

And people will keep talking about this issue until it isn't an issue anymore, so we all might better get used to hearing about it.

[David19]

I don't hate Christians .....

Me neither, they are delicious.:bigredgri

:lol:.


Do you want a cookie? I mean really? A pat on the back? Simply because we're pagans doesn't make us hate Christians nor does it make us need to particularly like them either! We are all different and we all have our reasons for thinking the way we do. I don't hate Christians, many of them irritate me but I don't hate them. This just seems like another person getting on a pedestal saying "look at me I'm so tolerant and better than thou"!

I didn't think the OP was trying to say that, I just thought he may have been venting his frustrations, or making an observation about what he's seen in the Pagan community. It may not be noticable on MW, but, there are quite a few pockets of Pagans that just seem to get together and bash Christians, Muslims and Jews, and, some chuck in Atheists too.

[David19]

I hate some Christians. But it's the person, not the religion. It just so happens that they are Christian. Although, to tell the truth, there's only two people I really, really hate... don't know (or care) what, if any, religion they follow. Everyone else, it's more of a strong dislike that's more easily explained by saying I hate them. And I may strongly dislike some of these people because they are assholes about religion, but I'm pretty sure that even if we took that away, I'd still end up disliking them for other reasons.

I also love some Christians. Because they're awesome. I can even have religious discussions with my mother, who is Catholic. And she doesn't try to convert me or anything... I think she tries to understand, if anything. Same goes for my best friend. And my two roommates, although Gnostics really don't seem like they fit in the same boat as other Christians.

Really good points and post, I hate some people who happen to be Christian, I also hate some people who happen to be Pagan, and other religions and paths too. However, that has nothing to do with their religion, but, their character, personality, etc (for example, if they're homophobic, racist, jerks, etc). No one will get on with everybody, but, any dislike of a person shouldn't be related to their religion. For example, most of us would, hopefully, say we hate Hitler, that has nothing to do with his nationality, religion (whatever it was), culture, etc, but, his murderous evil character/personality.


Yes, I love cookies.


Can I have a cookie too? I like oatmeal raisin, but anything is good!


Mmmmm cookies! Where do we pick them up? Is there a choice in what kind of cookie we get? I don't like shortbread.

I want some cookies, especially chocolate chip, or double chocolate chip, or triple chocolate chip. Anything with chocolate chip in please :mmm: :boing:.

[David19]

You did generalize in your OP a bit, threw a dirty blanket over the whole Pagan community by saying "... a rather large stigma..." and "... more often than not ...". That likely made some of the responses a little defensive.

I agree generalising the entire Pagan community shouldn't be done, but, I can understand the OPs point, the more vocal Pagans do tend to, IMO, spend a lot of time saying "the Christians did this" or "the Christians did that". I've seen it quite a bit on other places on the internet, sometimes, I wouldn't be surprised if I saw some Pagans saying "I stepped in dog shit today, it's the big bad Christians fault".

[David19]

I don't see anyone saying that we all need to be the same. I see somebody saying they think pagans can be prejudicial like everyone else. Which is true.

QFT :thumbsup:.

[Lunacie]

I agree generalising the entire Pagan community shouldn't be done, but, I can understand the OPs point, the more vocal Pagans do tend to, IMO, spend a lot of time saying "the Christians did this" or "the Christians did that". I've seen it quite a bit on other places on the internet, sometimes, I wouldn't be surprised if I saw some Pagans saying "I stepped in dog shit today, it's the big bad Christians fault".

I understood the OP's point as well, I was just pointing out one reason why some of the responses may have been a little defensive or agumentative.

Granted, I don't hang out at big Pagan events like week long camping events, but I've been to some smaller discussion groups and several Pagan/Metaphysical events... and that really isn't a perspective I've seen a lot of. Some do have that viewpoint, one person in my own coven made several of us unhappy with doing exactly that, and eventually we decided to vote her out of the group (for that and other reasons). So, not only are there many of us who don't do that - condemn all Christians - but we don't put up with others doing it either.

There are many topics that are so much better to talk about, in my opinion, than how we've been oppressed by the Christian fundies. Having a discussion about how to respond to those who are fundies (and maybe even push their envelope a little bit) is a better subject than simply whining about how terrible they are. Unless someone in the group is actually under attack by Christian fundamentalists, why is it worth talking about them at all?

[Calli]

I do believe that everyone has the right to believe whatever they believe, and practice whatever they practice, and have whatever opinion they have - but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it or never say anything against it. Seems like other religions get a free pass to criticize and condemn that Pagans don't get.

My feelings exactly! :thumbsup:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Some would like that...

Pagan Hot Pockets !

If you can't beat them , eat them...:bigredgri

Now that's no can 'o bull...:uhhuhuh:



It may not be noticable on MW, but, there are quite a few pockets of Pagans that just seem to get together and bash Christians, Muslims and Jews, and, some chuck in Atheists too.

[Darth Brooks]

Some would like that...

Pagan Hot Pockets !

If you can't beat them , eat them...:bigredgri

Now that's no can 'o bull...:uhhuhuh:

:hehehehe:

[Sekushi Cho]

Some would like that...

Pagan Hot Pockets !

If you can't beat them , eat them...:bigredgri

Now that's no can 'o bull...:uhhuhuh:lulz :alol:

[PhoenixRose]

I think hate is definatly the wrong word. I know that I have no problems with Christians its the need of some to try and 'save my soul' that gets a little irksome after awhile. That and when they make fun of my religion. {I follow the Rede, but harm none is hard when I have to suffer through 30+ Harry Potter jokes a day} I don't really think its fair when I respect their religion and they refuse to respect mine. I actually enjoy when people ask me about my beliefs because it gives me a chance to show I'm not some crazy evil person sacrificing Fluffy to Xaaoindaf in the backyard.

I think that the major reason people in general are unease about Wicca is because they don't understand it and people are naturally weary of the unknown.

[Caitlin.ann]

:lol:.



I didn't think the OP was trying to say that, I just thought he may have been venting his frustrations, or making an observation about what he's seen in the Pagan community. It may not be noticable on MW, but, there are quite a few pockets of Pagans that just seem to get together and bash Christians, Muslims and Jews, and, some chuck in Atheists too.

Meh..maybe I'm a cynic. I interpreted it as "I'm a pagan who doesn't loathe Christians so I'm special and better than thou"..*shrugs*

[spiral]

I'd also like to add... that I'm a boy. Not a she.... x3

Oops, sorry :weirdsmil

[Sekushi Cho]

Oops, sorry :weirdsmilDon't worry yourself about it. I'm all about gender bending, so it's more of a compliment than anything. :cutie:

[Bettie]

I don't hate christians at all - in fact, in my time, I've actually had more grief from pagans than christians. The sort of pagans that think we should all follow the Rede, and believe in karma and the whole threefold thing. Not to mention the wiccans who use *my* belief system as a way of proving to non-pagans what they are NOT. Many times I have seen people using the "I'm a wiccan, it's not like we're satanists or anything LOL!!!!" argument, which makes me get a bit stabby.

So, no, I don't have a problem with christians, in the main, as long as they don't attempt to convert me, I shan't attempt to convert them, and we'll all be cool.

:)

[Lahmi]

I don't care , and am under no requirement to care what someone's
intentions are...as soon as they attempt any type of coercion , or
conversion , they have crossed the line , and shall suffer my retribution...And yes , I feel GOOD about that...:bigredgri

"but they have the good intentions, thinking they will save our souls. So I don't take it too personally :)"

*raspberry*
:halohead:

[Louisvillian]

I don't care , and am under no requirement to care what someone's
intentions are...as soon as they attempt any type of coercion , or
conversion , they have crossed the line
Hmm. You ever think they might only be trying to make you use proper English once in a while? :p


I don't hate christians at all - in fact, in my time, I've actually had more grief from pagans than christians.
I have to admit that's quite true for me as well. I've known some really goofy, and IMO just plain retarded, people who claim to be neopagans.
It's sad and embarrassing, really.

There are even some people on this site who I honestly think are just plain nuts. Every once in a while, I read bizarre things that really do merit one of these:
http://apublicdefender.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/facepalm.jpg

[Lunacie]

I don't hate christians at all - in fact, in my time, I've actually had more grief from pagans than christians. The sort of pagans that think we should all follow the Rede, and believe in karma and the whole threefold thing. Not to mention the wiccans who use *my* belief system as a way of proving to non-pagans what they are NOT. Many times I have seen people using the "I'm a wiccan, it's not like we're satanists or anything LOL!!!!" argument, which makes me get a bit stabby.

So, no, I don't have a problem with christians, in the main, as long as they don't attempt to convert me, I shan't attempt to convert them, and we'll all be cool.

:)

I used to say that, when I first began following the Wiccan path, before I knew anything at all about the Satanic path. Yeah, it was dumb, I didn't know any better then. I'm glad I had a chance to read posts on forums like this from Satanists explaining their religion a bit better.

So I'm glad I have the chance myself to post around forums like this one, and when I read posts by people who don't know any better what Wicca really is, I have the chance to explain the Wiccan religion a bit better. No point being upset at the person who hasn't had a chance to learn anything yet. Better to channel those energies into dealing with the people who have learned a bit about Wicca and still buy into the nonsense.

(Not saying you're upset with all Wiccans... just building on your point.)

[Calli]

I'll be honest. I still don't know anything about the Satanic path. I had one person share with me what they believed one time, and took it as truth. I was so underwhelmed, I never tried again to understand. I think it's time to read a bit...

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Hm, maybe it's the ones who feel guilt over leaving Christianity that hate Christians now? You know, the ones who are having trouble leaving the past behind and embracing something new and different.

That's normally my take on it. Almost as if their is a resentment against the religion and against themselves.

[Imeera]

Where ever there is conflict there will be hard feelings. Chirstianity "kicked out" many Pagan beliefs from countries hundrads of years ago. They have caused alot of suffering. But so has many other religions, even Paganism. So I do not hate Christians. I hate Christianity and the people that use it to control others. The fundalmentalists. I know many Christians. I like most, but I hate some because of who they are, not because they are Christian. Just like I dislike many Pagans with ridged beliefs. For example, when I was first interested about Paganism I was asking about different paths, but I got told I could never be a real Wiccan because I wasn't born into it. I also dislike Muslims that are so bound in relgion like Saudi Arabia. Religion is a tool. It just depends how you use it. And Pagans these days, most Pagans use it for good. Not control. Though thats not always true for other religions like Christianity.

[Phoenix Blue]

Where ever there is conflict there will be hard feelings. Chirstianity "kicked out" many Pagan beliefs from countries hundrads of years ago. They have cause alot of suffering.
Really? Ever wonder where Christmas trees came from? :) As for suffering -- people used religion as an excuse to inflict suffering upon others, yes. But they were still responsible, as individuals, for their actions.


I like most, but I hate some because of who they are, not because they are Christian.
Why would you waste your energy "hating" anyone?


Religion is a tool. It just depends how you use it. And Pagans these days, most Pagans use it for good. Not control. Though thats not always true for other religions like Christianity.
Step one on your search for your own spiritual path should be to release the baggage you carried with you from any previous religion. Religion isn't perfect because people aren't perfect -- judge religion based on its texts and your interpretations thereof, and you're more likely to find something that suits you.

[Imeera]

Really? Ever wonder where Christmas trees came from? :) As for suffering -- people used religion as an excuse to inflict suffering upon others, yes. But they were still responsible, as individuals, for their actions.
I know where Christmas trees come from. And that it is an excuse. That was the point I was making!



Why would you waste your energy "hating" anyone? I hate people when I think they deserve it. I am human I can't help it.



Step one on your search for your own spiritual path should be to release the baggage you carried with you from any previous religion. Religion isn't perfect because people aren't perfect -- judge religion based on its texts and your interpretations thereof, and you're more likely to find something that suits you.
I haven't had any religious input from anyone my entier life. So I have no "religious baggage". I make a habbit of looking up religions to better unnderstand them. So I do make my mind up about them with no bias. Everything about religion is man made. I have no problem with that. I do not understand what your trying to say. You have agreed with me in a conflicting way.

[sleepycat]

I don't hate Christians.
I do strongly object to:
Strangers knocking on my door, wanting to come in and tell me about God.
Bible tracts left in occult books in a bookstore.
Strangers asking me in public places if I've "BEEN SAAAAVED"
Anyone of any belief system that is arrogant enough to claim that they know the mind/intent of any deity, and/or that they are the followers of the one true path.
etc, etc, etc

[Cunae]

I don't hate anyone... well, child molesters. And liver. I really hate those two things. If I could, I would remove both from the planet.

[Imeera]

I don't hate Christians.
I do strongly object to:
Strangers knocking on my door, wanting to come in and tell me about God.
Bible tracts left in occult books in a bookstore.
Strangers asking me in public places if I've "BEEN SAAAAVED"
Anyone of any belief system that is arrogant enough to claim that they know the mind/intent of any deity, and/or that they are the followers of the one true path.
etc, etc, etc
Exactly!

[Phoenix Blue]

I hate people when I think they deserve it. I am human I can't help it.
Oh, bollocks. If you don't control your emotions, who does? Do you really fancy the idea of allowing people you want nothing to do with to have that much power over you?


Strangers asking me in public places if I've "BEEN SAAAAVED"
Remind me to tell you sometime about the time I poked a kid who was spouting off about pseudo-religious tripe at the top of his lungs. If I didn't know better, I'd think he was drunk at the time.

[sleepycat]

Remind me to tell you sometime about the time I poked a kid who was spouting off about pseudo-religious tripe at the top of his lungs. If I didn't know better, I'd think he was drunk at the time.

PSSST! Phoenix Blue!

...tell me about poking the drunk kid.

[Lunacie]

I don't hate anyone... well, child molesters. And liver. I really hate those two things. If I could, I would remove both from the planet.

Well, child molestors can be banished, no problem, but don't try to take away my fried liver 'n' onions. :meanhead:

[Cunae]

Well, child molestors can be banished, no problem, but don't try to take away my fried liver 'n' onions. :meanhead:


Don't be frying it around me and we're fine... I can live with that one! :smile:

[Phoenix Blue]

PSSST! Phoenix Blue!

...tell me about poking the drunk kid.
:lol: You asked for it.

Actually, it was fairly innocuous. My wife and I were walking back to our car from a night out at a local pub, and the kid was on a street corner, bellowing the "good news" to anyone who walked by. In passing, I shot back, "He's your savior, not mine." He didn't move from his spot, but he kept yelling -- ever louder as we kept walking -- until we were a good block away.

He may not have actually been drunk, but he carried the same general demeanor ... so maybe drunk, maybe mentally imbalanced. The people I know who genuinely reflect Christianity don't shout it from the sidewalks -- they live it, silently and secretly, as Jesus commanded them to do in Matthew. And they, like the street yodelers, are known by their fruits.

[Sage Rainsong]

:lol: You asked for it.

Actually, it was fairly innocuous. My wife and I were walking back to our car from a night out at a local pub, and the kid was on a street corner, bellowing the "good news" to anyone who walked by. In passing, I shot back, "He's your savior, not mine." He didn't move from his spot, but he kept yelling -- ever louder as we kept walking -- until we were a good block away.

He may not have actually been drunk, but he carried the same general demeanor ... so maybe drunk, maybe mentally imbalanced. The people I know who genuinely reflect Christianity don't shout it from the sidewalks -- they live it, silently and secretly, as Jesus commanded them to do in Matthew. And they, like the street yodelers, are known by their fruits.

Those kinds of people can be so funny, huh? Once when I was out walking at Boston Commons a guy on a portable loud speaker said, "homosexual act will not get you into heaven." I didn't even say anything to him nor did I think that I was that flamboyant lol! I simply responded, "then why the hell would I want to go there?"

[Imeera]

Oh, bollocks. If you don't control your emotions, who does? Do you really fancy the idea of allowing people you want nothing to do with to have that much power over you?
Oh really? Though I have good reasons why I hate the people I do. But there are only a few of them. If I don't like someone I don't hate them imediatly. I grow to hate them if they deserve it. And they do not control me. I like ranting and I am pretty sure many people do too. But I can stop myself ranting, I am aware of what I am doing. But its also better to rant than to supress the whole time. I know when to rant, and when not to. Therefore they have no power over me. So yes. Your right. I do control my emotions. Look. You think I really hate people. I want to do them harm? Well I do not. I was using it as in "I hate washing the dishes". The same as dislike. Or strongly dislike. I do not want to kill fundamentalists. Or Christians, I just don't like how they do things. I don't truely hate anyone who personally has not done me, or those I care about serious harm. Therefore I say again. I have good reason to hate the people I do.

[David19]

Where ever there is conflict there will be hard feelings. Chirstianity "kicked out" many Pagan beliefs from countries hundrads of years ago. They have caused alot of suffering. But so has many other religions, even Paganism. So I do not hate Christians. I hate Christianity and the people that use it to control others. The fundalmentalists. I know many Christians. I like most, but I hate some because of who they are, not because they are Christian. Just like I dislike many Pagans with ridged beliefs. For example, when I was first interested about Paganism I was asking about different paths, but I got told I could never be a real Wiccan because I wasn't born into it. I also dislike Muslims that are so bound in relgion like Saudi Arabia. Religion is a tool. It just depends how you use it. And Pagans these days, most Pagans use it for good. Not control. Though thats not always true for other religions like Christianity.

Why would you hate Christianity?, yes, religion can be used as a tool for great harm, but, it can also be used for great good, why not just hate the people who twist religion?. Also, you judge an entire people (the Saudi's) just 'cause of their religion?.

[Imeera]

Why would you hate Christianity?, yes, religion can be used as a tool for great harm, but, it can also be used for great good, why not just hate the people who twist religion?. Also, you judge an entire people (the Saudi's) just 'cause of their religion?.

I dislike it because its only about control. Control of the masses. Control of women. Control of everything. It isn't so much now. But it still is some times. For example. Birth control and abortion. What I am saying is that I do not like Chirstianity for my own reasons, and you can't tell me otherwise. I have formed my own opinion about it after looking at it closely. Something you told me to do. As for Saudi Arabia, I do not hate the people. I don't judge them. I dislike how they do things, I dislike Islam. Just like I do not like the fundalmentalists in America. In Saudi Arabia it was said women should cover one eye instead of keeping two because it looked aluring to men. This is after they are wearing the abaya and sheila. They don't even let women from outside the country show their hair, if I went there I would have to wear a sheila. Do you think this isn't control? Religion is man made. People wrote its holy texts. Therefore people put into it what I do not like about it. Yes religion is used as a tool. But the tool was made by humans to be used as it is being used. "Do not do this, do not do that. You can't have this..." ect. Religion can't really be twisted. Either you use the good parts of it. Or the bad. And I do not like the people who use it for the bad.

[Philosophia]

Nope, don't hate anybody, even religions.

[Nesta]

I'm ashamed to admit that I do have some anti-Christian feelings. I am very quick to stamp them out when they pop into my head because I think these feelings are wrong.

I was raised Christian but I can't honestly say that I had any negative experiences. On the contrary I have very fond recollections, it just didn't feel right to me. I have a very warm-hearted and open-minded family who don't care what my religious preference is, they just want me to be true to myself. I was a round peg trying to fit into a square hole.

So why do I have the negative thoughts? I'll admit it's a puzzler.

Some of it is more about the people I've met than their religion so it's no reason at all but I get annoyed when I'm told 'once a Christian, always a Christian'. How dare anyone tell me who or what I am?

Of course I do meet people who are idiots and are Pagan too and this has a different effect on me, it makes me cringe.

I have met several people who have tried in vain to convert me back to Christianity. To be honest I can't stand having someone tell me that their way is superior or that I'm wrong in my beliefs. This is my main gripe because I've only ever experienced this from Christians and it really bugs me.

I'm kinda cringing for even writing this :weirdsmil.

Somebody come and enlighten me quick! I have to state that I don't hate anybody, it's too strong and destructive an emotion, very difficult to control.

[Phoenix Blue]

Birth control and abortion. What I am saying is that I do not like Chirstianity for my own reasons, and you can't tell me otherwise.
I think you're confusing religion with political views. There are plenty of Christians who are okay with abortion and birth control -- the Vatican doesn't dictate everyone's position on things, and Christians are not some sort of hive mind.

As for whether we can tell you otherwise ... well, of course we can say otherwise. It's just up to you whether you choose to listen. If you don't, that paints you in pretty much the same corner as the fundamentalists with whom you have so many problems.

In short, you become what you hate.


In Saudi Arabia it was said women should cover one eye instead of keeping two because it looked aluring to men. This is after they are wearing the abaya and sheila. They don't even let women from outside the country show their hair, if I went there I would have to wear a sheila.
A "shiela"? Do you mean an abaya? Also, Saudi Arabia is not representative of all nations in the Middle East. For example, women in Qatar, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates are largely allowed to dress as they please.

You say you've looked into these religions, but your words seem to prove otherwise.

[Imeera]

I think you're confusing religion with political views. There are plenty of Christians who are okay with abortion and birth control -- the Vatican doesn't dictate everyone's position on things, and Christians are not some sort of hive mind.

As for whether we can tell you otherwise ... well, of course we can say otherwise. It's just up to you whether you choose to listen. If you don't, that paints you in pretty much the same corner as the fundamentalists with whom you have so many problems.

In short, you become what you hate.
I wasn't talking about people! I know there are people who are okay with it. I am saying the religion isn't. And religion is alot about politics now.



A "shiela"? Do you mean an abaya? Also, Saudi Arabia is not representative of all nations in the Middle East. For example, women in Qatar, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates are largely allowed to dress as they please.

You say you've looked into these religions, but your words seem to prove otherwise. I lived in the UAE for 7 years. I know what they are like. Some of my closest friends are Muslim. And I do not care. They are good people. But there were some I didn't like because of who they are. I did not say Saudi was the reprisentitive I was just explaining what I ment about that perticular country. There is only one person who I hate in this world, and I mean truly hate. Everyone else I dislike, whether strongly or otherwise. Are you looking for a fight? Why are you arguing with me? I have said that I don't hate Christians I hate the person themselves, and what Christianity can be. Just like other religions. I have looked into it. Your not really listening to what I have been saying. And yes you may be right about the sheila.

[joykristel]

As for the topic of Christianity (as the first post), religions differ from each other (one way or another) because if they are the same, there would be only one religion. It's just that Christians have different beliefs when it comes to Wicca and witchcraft. They are actually against it (though not all but the religion itself does). Anyway, regarding the Abaya and stuff. I have lived in Saudi Arabia for 2 1/2 years. I am not a Saudi citizen. It's not true that women from other countries are not allowed to show their hair. They just have to wear veil just like all the women in the country. The citizens there actually do not show their face or any flesh at all (for families who have strong hold of their tradition). This is the reason for the nail art so that they can still have fashion in their body. Covering an eye is also not true, they cover both eyes (depending on their hold). Women from other countries should also follow the dress code as respect to the country's tradition.

[David19]

I dislike it because its only about control. Control of the masses. Control of women. Control of everything. It isn't so much now. But it still is some times. For example. Birth control and abortion. What I am saying is that I do not like Chirstianity for my own reasons, and you can't tell me otherwise. I have formed my own opinion about it after looking at it closely. Something you told me to do. As for Saudi Arabia, I do not hate the people. I don't judge them. I dislike how they do things, I dislike Islam. Just like I do not like the fundalmentalists in America. In Saudi Arabia it was said women should cover one eye instead of keeping two because it looked aluring to men. This is after they are wearing the abaya and sheila. They don't even let women from outside the country show their hair, if I went there I would have to wear a sheila. Do you think this isn't control? Religion is man made. People wrote its holy texts. Therefore people put into it what I do not like about it. Yes religion is used as a tool. But the tool was made by humans to be used as it is being used. "Do not do this, do not do that. You can't have this..." ect. Religion can't really be twisted. Either you use the good parts of it. Or the bad. And I do not like the people who use it for the bad.

Do you have a religion then?, 'cause, that can also be used for control purposes, and, yes, Christianity was used to control various groups, but, it was also used to liberate various groups and people, from the African slaves, even early feminists used it to fight for equal rights, same for some LGBT Christians, etc. So, I just don't see why it's necessary to hate the entire religion, for the actions of individuals and groups within that religion.

[Calli]

Due to this thread and some others, I have come to realize that I am still recovering from the hurts of the past, where religion is concerned. I have also come to realize that there are doctrinal concepts in Christianity that I completely disagree with. I'm okay with both of these facts. I am where I belong for today on my path of healing. As long as I am healing, and moving forward, I no longer have to pretend that I'm "there" and all resentment is gone. I'm okay just the way I am. For today. Maybe tomorrow I'll be healed even more. Someday, I may even be resentment free. That day is not today, however.

Having said that, I also want to say that I don't appreciate being judged by what others may or may not have done. I try very hard not to do that to others. Just because someone is Christian, that doesn't cause me to think badly of them. If they try to impose their beliefs on me, that's another matter. Then it's a behavioral issue, not a religious one at all.

[Cunae]

<snip>
Having said that, I also want to say that I don't appreciate being judged by what others may or may not have done. I try very hard not to do that to others. Just because someone is Christian, that doesn't cause me to think badly of them. If they try to impose their beliefs on me, that's another matter. Then it's a behavioral issue, not a religious one at all.

You know, that's a great way to put it. Exactly!

[Caitlin.ann]

I don't see what the big deal is..if someone doesn't like Christians that is their right..

[Lunacie]

I don't see what the big deal is..if someone doesn't like Christians that is their right..

Yeah, it's not like we're walking up to them and screaming about how they aren't going to get reincarnated, eh?

But seriously, I think people just get tired of hearing/reading all the bashing and complaints. I just skim over them myself. Meh.

I have blocked an old friend who wouldn't stop sending me tons of forwarded messages about how the country is going to ruin because of the "attacks on Christianity." But I didn't spend days bitching about her on a discussion forum.

[Caitlin.ann]

Yeah, it's not like we're walking up to them and screaming about how they aren't going to get reincarnated, eh?

But seriously, I think people just get tired of hearing/reading all the bashing and complaints. I just skim over them myself. Meh.

I have blocked an old friend who wouldn't stop sending me tons of forwarded messages about how the country is going to ruin because of the "attacks on Christianity." But I didn't spend days bitching about her on a discussion forum.

Yeah I know what you mean. I don't try to get anyone to like anyone they don't want to and really as members of alternative religions shouldn't we be more open minded and less worried about others personal thoughts and opinions which don't harm anyone? I just don't get why others, and here isn't the only place I've seen it mind you, try to get every pagan to like Christians or why people on other sites absolutely loathe Christians.

Personally I have many Christian family and friends who I love and I am not against buying religious stuff for them or encouraging them in their faith. That being said I have a huge hatred for anything remotely reeking of fundamentalism and when I hear "Christian" I have to check myself because I automatically feel a tinge of dislike. I'm working through it though and thats just me.

[Twinkle]

It's a touchy kind of subject. I know a lot of times it depends on what kind of "Christian" we're talking about.

Personally, I don't hate Christians - or I'd have to hate most of my family. I do detest the doctrine. I detest that people use their religion to try to make law...and yes, it's the Religious Right that does it.

The other day I was on a Christian Forum Board and the members were nine levels of pissed that they took prayer out of schools....apparently the degradation of society is occuring because the kids aren't praying to Jesus at 8:15 every morning.

We are all guilty of our little knee jerk reactions - based on a number of different factors -

A lot of us have been rejected by friends and family merely because we changed belief systems.

There are many Christians that claim to be loving and understanding, yet they cannot argue the doctrine - and that doctrine is that there is no salvation without Christ.

If you want to walk around the big elephant in the room you can certainly get along with Christians, even love them - but there is a divide between Pagans and Christians - and I feel worse for the poor Christopagans - that's a tough gig. It could be a bridge - but I don't see many Christians accepting it, and a lot of pagans look a little cross eyed at it too.

Of course, if everyone was secure in their beliefs and had no need to be validated by someone from a different faith - we wouldn't have this issue in the first place.

[Calli]

I do detest the doctrine. I detest that people use their religion to try to make law...and yes, it's the Religious Right that does it.

I completely agree with this. And that's opening a whole new can of worms. Personally, I support the Constitution of the United States, which separates church and state. Our Founding Fathers did a hell of a job, and I stand behind their work. Believe what you want, but keep it out of my government!

[David19]

It's a touchy kind of subject. I know a lot of times it depends on what kind of "Christian" we're talking about.

Personally, I don't hate Christians - or I'd have to hate most of my family. I do detest the doctrine. I detest that people use their religion to try to make law...and yes, it's the Religious Right that does it.

The other day I was on a Christian Forum Board and the members were nine levels of pissed that they took prayer out of schools....apparently the degradation of society is occuring because the kids aren't praying to Jesus at 8:15 every morning.

We are all guilty of our little knee jerk reactions - based on a number of different factors -

A lot of us have been rejected by friends and family merely because we changed belief systems.

There are many Christians that claim to be loving and understanding, yet they cannot argue the doctrine - and that doctrine is that there is no salvation without Christ.

If you want to walk around the big elephant in the room you can certainly get along with Christians, even love them - but there is a divide between Pagans and Christians - and I feel worse for the poor Christopagans - that's a tough gig. It could be a bridge - but I don't see many Christians accepting it, and a lot of pagans look a little cross eyed at it too.

Of course, if everyone was secure in their beliefs and had no need to be validated by someone from a different faith - we wouldn't have this issue in the first place.

Personally, I can understand why some people who have been rejected by their family 'cause they're following a different belief system, but, to be honest, some families may not understand Paganism, and not just 'cause they think it's "evil" or "Satanic", but, the common stereotype of a Pagan isn't someone "evil" or a "Satanist", but, of a New Age flake, who's perfectly harmless, but, just too New Age (in other words, someone who loves crystals, and spends all their time imagining/visualizing things in their head, and calling it magic). Maybe if there was a better image of Pagans out there, there might be less misconceptions (and its Pagans who need to put a new image out there, the normal Pagans have to show we aren't all freaks, we don't all dress like hippies, we don't all love heavy metal or Pagan-Celtic music, we don't all love Fairies, some of us love shopping at GAP, like I know you fit the category of a normal Pagan, as I've seen your pics).

Personally, I think a lot of the reasons why some Pagans have an issue with Christianity and Christians is due to the society they grew up in - America. I'm not insulting the U.S. or trying to be rude to Americans, but, it's just I've noticed there's more anti-Christian bias from American Pagans than anywhere else, so, maybe, the issue lies with that society than anything inate in any religion ('cause, again not trying to be rude, but, even other Christians over here think a lot of American Christians are just wierd or a joke (the religious right mainly)).

[David19]

But seriously, I think people just get tired of hearing/reading all the bashing and complaints. I just skim over them myself. Meh.

I know I do, personally, even though I'm a Pagan, sometimes I don't think I fit in with many Pagans, 'cause, one, I don't have a problem with Christianity, Judaism or Islam, and actually want to learn more about them, 2, I don't dress like a New Age hippy, or like someone obsessed with Renaissance fairs (I just heard about those), 3, I fit in with mainstream society (meaning I'd rather shop at GAP, Topman and Topshop (not sure if you have those in the U.S.?), etc, than dress like a "typical Pagan", I don't like Pagan music (like the "Celtic music" you see paraded around by Pagans), I'm not obsessed with Fairies), and I don't see the need to parade my religion/path (whenever I figure it out) to others, my path wouldn't define who I was, etc.

[Lunacie]

I know I do, personally, even though I'm a Pagan, sometimes I don't think I fit in with many Pagans, 'cause, one, I don't have a problem with Christianity, Judaism or Islam, and actually want to learn more about them, 2, I don't dress like a New Age hippy, or like someone obsessed with Renaissance fairs (I just heard about those), 3, I fit in with mainstream society (meaning I'd rather shop at GAP, Topman and Topshop (not sure if you have those in the U.S.?), etc, than dress like a "typical Pagan", I don't like Pagan music (like the "Celtic music" you see paraded around by Pagans), I'm not obsessed with Fairies), and I don't see the need to parade my religion/path (whenever I figure it out) to others, my path wouldn't define who I was, etc.

Whoa, way to lump everyone together and then point out the differences. :smileroll

1 - I don't think that all Pagans have a problem with the mainstream religions. Many of us came from that kind of background or childhood and already know as much or more than many Christians, for instance, about their own religion.

2 - Sure, there is a large group of Pagans who dress "new age" or "rennie", but the vast majority dress just like anyone else in their demographic. The ones I know wear jeans and t-shirts for the most part.

3 - Nope, don't think we have Topman or Topshop, but we do have GAP. Might be interesting to do a poll of shoppers at GAP to find out whether the majority of them are Pagans. Somehow I doubt it.

I do like Celtic music, but generally listen to BOB FM which plays a wide range of music, mostly rock'n'roll, some goldie-oldie, some new.

I don't think all Pagans are crazy about Fairies either. Or Dragons. We're a very eclectic bunch all huddled together under one very large umbrella.

And we don't all wear giant pentagrams and say "Goddess bless!" all the time. Many of us are still "in the broom closet" and only a couple of other people know about our secret inner spirituality.

So I'd hazard a guess that you fit in just fine with most Pagans, you wouldn't stand out like a sore thumb because I don't think is any such critter as "a typical Pagan." :smile:

[Caitlin.ann]

So I'd hazard a guess that you fit in just fine with most Pagans, you wouldn't stand out like a sore thumb because I don't think is any such critter as "a typical Pagan." :smile:

Agreed. I don't stick out either unless you notice my necklace.

[Imeera]

Do you have a religion then?, 'cause, that can also be used for control purposes, and, yes, Christianity was used to control various groups, but, it was also used to liberate various groups and people, from the African slaves, even early feminists used it to fight for equal rights, same for some LGBT Christians, etc. So, I just don't see why it's necessary to hate the entire religion, for the actions of individuals and groups within that religion.
No. I have no religion. And if you read what I have been saying you would find that I admited I did not hate, I dislike. You see they can be interchanged if you look at the lower end of the "Hate spectrum". And I don't hate an intier group of people becuase of their religion. I dislike the people that use it for bad things. Like thoes famous terrorists, or thoes trying to force anti abortion laws. That is what I have been saying for post after post! I have an idea. Why don't you read my last post. Wait. Even better yet, read all of the ones between myself and Phoenix Blue. Then you can tell me if I hate an intier group of people or not. And you will probably find, to your dismay, that I do not -shock face-

[Twinkle]

David - I think you're right.

In my online discussions I've found that people from Europe, especially Sweden, don't seem to have the venom we have in America for Christians.

Of course, from what I understand, they don't seem to have the same kind of feral Christians running around trying to create law based on their Bible....no bumper stickers saying "Vote the Bible" there.

The Asatru worship openly, and there is a sort of tolerance that I personally haven't seen much of here in the great State of Texas.

[David19]

Whoa, way to lump everyone together and then point out the differences. :smileroll

Sorry, it was just a more general observation, I know not all Pagans are like that ;)!.


1 - I don't think that all Pagans have a problem with the mainstream religions. Many of us came from that kind of background or childhood and already know as much or more than many Christians, for instance, about their own religion.

True, I was just generalising about some of the elements we find in the Pagan community.


2 - Sure, there is a large group of Pagans who dress "new age" or "rennie", but the vast majority dress just like anyone else in their demographic. The ones I know wear jeans and t-shirts for the most part.

I guess, I'd have a more balanced view, if I knew more Pagans, unfortunately, the ones I've seen dressed like I've described (mind you it was a large environmental Green fair which attracts loads of Pagan and Paganish types, and they didn't know I was Pagan, but, I wouldn't be seen with them in public).



3 - Nope, don't think we have Topman or Topshop, but we do have GAP. Might be interesting to do a poll of shoppers at GAP to find out whether the majority of them are Pagans. Somehow I doubt it.

Probably not the majority, as we are a minority, but, again, just a generalisation, based on the Pagans I've seen.


I do like Celtic music, but generally listen to BOB FM which plays a wide range of music, mostly rock'n'roll, some goldie-oldie, some new.

I haven't actually listened to Celtic music, but, I don't think it would be my fave, on my iPod, you'll mostly find Katy Perry, Rihanna, Beyonce, Pink, The Killers, and many others, so, a pretty eclectic taste of Indie, R&B, rock, etc.


I don't think all Pagans are crazy about Fairies either. Or Dragons. We're a very eclectic bunch all huddled together under one very large umbrella.

And we don't all wear giant pentagrams and say "Goddess bless!" all the time. Many of us are still "in the broom closet" and only a couple of other people know about our secret inner spirituality.

Under the idea of dragons, I'd be under that umbrella too!, and I guess I'd still be in the "broom closet" too, although voluntarily.


So I'd hazard a guess that you fit in just fine with most Pagans, you wouldn't stand out like a sore thumb because I don't think is any such critter as "a typical Pagan." :smile:

True, I guess I shouldn't generalise so much!.



No. I have no religion. And if you read what I have been saying you would find that I admited I did not hate, I dislike. You see they can be interchanged if you look at the lower end of the "Hate spectrum". And I don't hate an intier group of people becuase of their religion. I dislike the people that use it for bad things. Like thoes famous terrorists, or thoes trying to force anti abortion laws. That is what I have been saying for post after post! I have an idea. Why don't you read my last post. Wait. Even better yet, read all of the ones between myself and Phoenix Blue. Then you can tell me if I hate an intier group of people or not. And you will probably find, to your dismay, that I do not -shock face-

I did read your posts, and it just seems like you mentioned you didn't like Christianity or Christians, so, it seems like your quite hostile to them, for some reason.

[David19]

David - I think you're right.

In my online discussions I've found that people from Europe, especially Sweden, don't seem to have the venom we have in America for Christians.

Of course, from what I understand, they don't seem to have the same kind of feral Christians running around trying to create law based on their Bible....no bumper stickers saying "Vote the Bible" there.

The Asatru worship openly, and there is a sort of tolerance that I personally haven't seen much of here in the great State of Texas.

I think that is the problem, for some reason American Christians (not all, but, a lot) do seem to be more, how can I say it, crazier than other Christians in the world (granted there are some African Churches which could be included in that list), in Iceland, Asatru is a legal religion, people follow it openly, or whatever religion they want, over here in the UK, even though, officially, we're a Church of England country, we're very, very secular, and we put up Christmas decorations for Christmas, and Diwali decorations at Diwali (the Hindu festival of Lights for those that don't know), you can be Wiccan, Heathen, Hellenic recon, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Atheist, whatever, etc, and most people won't care, it's also completely legal for a Satanist to hold their rituals in the Royal Navy (there are still some idiots and jerks around, but, they are definitely the minority, although you'd probably be thought a bit wierd for holding any religious beliefs at all), as far as I know, it's the same in Australia. BTW, I'm not trying to put down America, there are a lot of great things that I like about it, and the admire, I just mean, that, it seems to be, mostly, the American Christians who the more wierd (to put it nicely) out of all Christians, so, I don't think Christianity, per-se, should be blamed.

[Lunacie]

I think that is the problem, for some reason American Christians (not all, but, a lot) do seem to be more, how can I say it, crazier than other Christians in the world (granted there are some African Churches which could be included in that list), in Iceland, Asatru is a legal religion, people follow it openly, or whatever religion they want, over here in the UK, even though, officially, we're a Church of England country, we're very, very secular, and we put up Christmas decorations for Christmas, and Diwali decorations at Diwali (the Hindu festival of Lights for those that don't know), you can be Wiccan, Heathen, Hellenic recon, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Atheist, whatever, etc, and most people won't care, it's also completely legal for a Satanist to hold their rituals in the Royal Navy (there are still some idiots and jerks around, but, they are definitely the minority, although you'd probably be thought a bit wierd for holding any religious beliefs at all), as far as I know, it's the same in Australia. BTW, I'm not trying to put down America, there are a lot of great things that I like about it, and the admire, I just mean, that, it seems to be, mostly, the American Christians who the more wierd (to put it nicely) out of all Christians, so, I don't think Christianity, per-se, should be blamed.

Well, I was thinking about this, and I suspect that the kind of Christians who are more likely to insist that the country be run on their religious values tried to do the same thing in Great Britain and ended up leaving because they couldn't get by with it there. So they came here where they do as they wished, and for a long time that's what they did. But then other immigrants came along who had different religious values and they're back where they were 200+ years ago, trying to make everyone accept their values. And it still doesn't work. And they still keep on trying. Gives new meaning to stubborn, eh?

[Calli]

I think that is the problem, for some reason American Christians (not all, but, a lot) do seem to be more, how can I say it, crazier than other Christians in the world

Actually, I don't think it's as many as you may think. It's just that they make a lot of noise, and seem to be a majority, when I don't believe they actually are. They are mostly concentrated in the Southern States. Out West here, we don't deal with them as much. I wish we didn't deal with them at all. ~sigh~

Edit - I just realized that you didn't mean the political ones, but generally badly behaved ones. Yes, sadly, those are everywhere.

[David19]

Well, I was thinking about this, and I suspect that the kind of Christians who are more likely to insist that the country be run on their religious values tried to do the same thing in Great Britain and ended up leaving because they couldn't get by with it there. So they came here where they do as they wished, and for a long time that's what they did. But then other immigrants came along who had different religious values and they're back where they were 200+ years ago, trying to make everyone accept their values. And it still doesn't work. And they still keep on trying. Gives new meaning to stubborn, eh?

That's probably very true, I don't know much about the Puritans (there the ones that left Britain for the U.S. right when it was first discovered?), but, that's probably very true, they couldn't get what they wanted over here, so, they left for a "new world", where they could start over, luckily, they can't get complete power, although they do have more power than any other radicals in other countries (for example, while we might have similar people to the Religious Right, they have no power at all, from what I've heard, the U.S. Religious Right do have quite a bit of influence on certain politicians, particularly Republican ones, I think anyway, I'm not trying to demonize Republicans or anything, it's just, from what I've gathered, Republican politicians are the ones the Religious Right get more sympathy from, compared to the more liberal Democrats, if I've gotten that really wrong, please correct me, I'd like to know).

Maybe if another planet is discovered, and people depart for that, your Religious Right will depart for the deserted planet, and the rest of the U.S. can finally have some peace!, I'd recommend you sending the Phelps family with them ;)!.

[David19]

Actually, I don't think it's as many as you may think. It's just that they make a lot of noise, and seem to be a majority, when I don't believe they actually are. They are mostly concentrated in the Southern States. Out West here, we don't deal with them as much. I wish we didn't deal with them at all. ~sigh~

Edit - I just realized that you didn't mean the political ones, but generally badly behaved ones. Yes, sadly, those are everywhere.

They probably are a minority and, unfortunately, give the majority of Christians a bad name, kind of like how the minority of SRW-worshipping Pagans give Pagans a bad name. It's good you don't deal with them much, from what I've heard, the Bible Belt is mainly concentrated around the South, isn't it?, is Arizona, California and similar places more liberal (I'm guessing San Francisco, the gay capital of the U.S. and one of the gay capitals of the world, is quite liberal!), I've also heard NY is quite liberal, and that it's quite a lot like London (maybe that's why I've always felt connected with it, and I'd love to maybe live there one day).

[Lunacie]

They probably are a minority and, unfortunately, give the majority of Christians a bad name, kind of like how the minority of SRW-worshipping Pagans give Pagans a bad name. It's good you don't deal with them much, from what I've heard, the Bible Belt is mainly concentrated around the South, isn't it?, is Arizona, California and similar places more liberal (I'm guessing San Francisco, the gay capital of the U.S. and one of the gay capitals of the world, is quite liberal!), I've also heard NY is quite liberal, and that it's quite a lot like London (maybe that's why I've always felt connected with it, and I'd love to maybe live there one day).

Rural areas are also pretty strongly Bible Belt, so states like Kansas which are mainly rural also experience the Bible Belt mentality. We bumped heads with some folks like that a couple of times while living in the teeny-tiny town (aka village).

[Darth Brooks]

Sure, there is a large group of Pagans who dress "new age" or "rennie", but the vast majority dress just like anyone else in their demographic. The ones I know wear jeans and t-shirts for the most part.I like dress shirts and ties personally. And whenever possible, clown suits.


I don't think all Pagans are crazy about Fairies either. Or Dragons. We're a very eclectic bunch all huddled together under one very large umbrella.I prefer succubi and kaiju, like Godzilla. :thumbsup:


The Asatru worship openly, and there is a sort of tolerance that I personally haven't seen much of here in the great State of Texas.

Well, that's Texas for you. Sometimes I think Texas still wants to be its own country.


That's probably very true, I don't know much about the Puritans (there the ones that left Britain for the U.S. right when it was first discovered?), but, that's probably very true, they couldn't get what they wanted over here, so, they left for a "new world", where they could start over, luckily, they can't get complete power, although they do have more power than any other radicals in other countries (for example, while we might have similar people to the Religious Right, they have no power at all, from what I've heard, the U.S. Religious Right do have quite a bit of influence on certain politicians, particularly Republican ones, I think anyway, I'm not trying to demonize Republicans or anything, it's just, from what I've gathered, Republican politicians are the ones the Religious Right get more sympathy from, compared to the more liberal Democrats, if I've gotten that really wrong, please correct me, I'd like to know).

Maybe if another planet is discovered, and people depart for that, your Religious Right will depart for the deserted planet, and the rest of the U.S. can finally have some peace!, I'd recommend you sending the Phelps family with them ;)!.

David you might find this thread interesting:

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=213827

[Calli]

David, you sure know a lot about our country. You were pretty accurate in what you said.

Lunacie, I didn't realize that about rural areas outside the Bible Belt. I live out West, where carrying a gun is quite legal. lol People tend to be a bit less pushy here, I think. But then, I also live in the Meth capital of the world, so maybe that's why.....

[Calli]

Boy, when I'm wrong, am I wrong! They're everywhere! The country's just crawling with them. Sorta like ants and other pests! lol

I can't believe what happened today. I hope he doesn't mind me telling what is really his story, but I'm shocked. My boyfriend's best friend (someone I used to like and respect) told him today that the Holy Spirit was leading him (the friend) to tell him (my boyfriend) that he is a sinner. That Jesus was unhappy with his choices. WTF!?!?!?! This might be considered a flame, and, if so, I'm sorry, but I think there's something really, really wrong with a religion that encourages its' members to insult and disrespect their loved ones.

Knowing me, I'd have probably responded with "That's okay. Ares isn't too happy with you at the moment, and he's a lot more likely to actually do something about it" and then walked out.

[Darth Brooks]

Boy, when I'm wrong, am I wrong! They're everywhere! The country's just crawling with them. Sorta like ants and other pests! lol

I can't believe what happened today. I hope he doesn't mind me telling what is really his story, but I'm shocked. My boyfriend's best friend (someone I used to like and respect) told him today that the Holy Spirit was leading him (the friend) to tell him (my boyfriend) that he is a sinner. That Jesus was unhappy with his choices. WTF!?!?!?! This might be considered a flame, and, if so, I'm sorry, but I think there's something really, really wrong with a religion that encourages its' members to insult and disrespect their loved ones.

Knowing me, I'd have probably responded with "That's okay. Ares isn't too happy with you at the moment, and he's a lot more likely to actually do something about it" and then walked out.

I'd have said, "Really? Well Jesus didn't mention that to me!" Then I'd have run off, clicking my heels and going, "Ah-gug-gug-gug-gug-gug!" just like Popeye.

http://www.geocities.com/%7Eshovalfilm/images/popeye-yam-spin.gif

[Avalanche]

Boy, when I'm wrong, am I wrong! They're everywhere! The country's just crawling with them. Sorta like ants and other pests! lol

I can't believe what happened today. I hope he doesn't mind me telling what is really his story, but I'm shocked. My boyfriend's best friend (someone I used to like and respect) told him today that the Holy Spirit was leading him (the friend) to tell him (my boyfriend) that he is a sinner. That Jesus was unhappy with his choices. WTF!?!?!?! This might be considered a flame, and, if so, I'm sorry, but I think there's something really, really wrong with a religion that encourages its' members to insult and disrespect their loved ones.

Knowing me, I'd have probably responded with "That's okay. Ares isn't too happy with you at the moment, and he's a lot more likely to actually do something about it" and then walked out.

I'd probably respond the same way. Replacing Ares with Loki. Or Giant Moose.

I really don't get why people think doing that crap is going to make people go, "Of course you're right and I'm wrong and now must live my life exactly like you do!" I can sort of get the reasons they want to convert people, but I still can not get the in your face types. I even tried talking to one of them about it, but they just went off about me going to hell and blah, blah, blah. Me and a bunch of other people then planned a "Hell party" because we decided it's one big party. Seems like all the cool people go there anyway.

[Calli]

All I can say to that is "Well, then I'll finally be warm. Yay!"

[David19]

Rural areas are also pretty strongly Bible Belt, so states like Kansas which are mainly rural also experience the Bible Belt mentality. We bumped heads with some folks like that a couple of times while living in the teeny-tiny town (aka village).

I always thought Kansas, and other rural areas, were part of the Bible Belt _inabox_. It, probanly, has a lot to do with the lack of diversity, if you don't grow up with a lot of other cultures (e.g. in rural areas, Jews would probably be seen as "suspicious" or "exotic", etc), it tends to give you an isolated perspective on the world. You tend to grow suspicious of "outside" or "foreign" influences. It also happened in the ancient world (the ancient Greeks didn't like foreigners, etc).


Well, that's Texas for you. Sometimes I think Texas still wants to be its own country.

With Bush as President!.


David you might find this thread interesting:

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=213827

Thanks, I remember seeing it, it was quite interesting.


David, you sure know a lot about our country. You were pretty accurate in what you said.

Thanks :).


Lunacie, I didn't realize that about rural areas outside the Bible Belt. I live out West, where carrying a gun is quite legal. lol People tend to be a bit less pushy here, I think. But then, I also live in the Meth capital of the world, so maybe that's why.....

I tended to assume all Southern States were part of the Bible Belt (going back in the box _inthebox_).


Boy, when I'm wrong, am I wrong! They're everywhere! The country's just crawling with them. Sorta like ants and other pests! lol

I can't believe what happened today. I hope he doesn't mind me telling what is really his story, but I'm shocked. My boyfriend's best friend (someone I used to like and respect) told him today that the Holy Spirit was leading him (the friend) to tell him (my boyfriend) that he is a sinner. That Jesus was unhappy with his choices. WTF!?!?!?! This might be considered a flame, and, if so, I'm sorry, but I think there's something really, really wrong with a religion that encourages its' members to insult and disrespect their loved ones.

Knowing me, I'd have probably responded with "That's okay. Ares isn't too happy with you at the moment, and he's a lot more likely to actually do something about it" and then walked out.

I'd have probably said, that's nice that Jesus talked to you, excuse me, I need to go communicate with him!.

[Lunacie]

Boy, when I'm wrong, am I wrong! They're everywhere! The country's just crawling with them. Sorta like ants and other pests! lol

I can't believe what happened today. I hope he doesn't mind me telling what is really his story, but I'm shocked. My boyfriend's best friend (someone I used to like and respect) told him today that the Holy Spirit was leading him (the friend) to tell him (my boyfriend) that he is a sinner. That Jesus was unhappy with his choices. WTF!?!?!?! This might be considered a flame, and, if so, I'm sorry, but I think there's something really, really wrong with a religion that encourages its' members to insult and disrespect their loved ones.

Knowing me, I'd have probably responded with "That's okay. Ares isn't too happy with you at the moment, and he's a lot more likely to actually do something about it" and then walked out.

I'd need a little time to think of a good come-back, but I think I might say something, "That's too bad that Jesus is so unhappy with me, but I'm trying to please my god/dess ~ not yours."

[Shaedema]

Boy, when I'm wrong, am I wrong! They're everywhere! The country's just crawling with them. Sorta like ants and other pests! lol

I can't believe what happened today. I hope he doesn't mind me telling what is really his story, but I'm shocked. My boyfriend's best friend (someone I used to like and respect) told him today that the Holy Spirit was leading him (the friend) to tell him (my boyfriend) that he is a sinner. That Jesus was unhappy with his choices. WTF!?!?!?! This might be considered a flame, and, if so, I'm sorry, but I think there's something really, really wrong with a religion that encourages its' members to insult and disrespect their loved ones.

Knowing me, I'd have probably responded with "That's okay. Ares isn't too happy with you at the moment, and he's a lot more likely to actually do something about it" and then walked out.

I'll never forget the time that my Sunday School teacher (yes I did have to go) set up a practice round of 'convert the unbelieving'. I got to play the 'going to hell' heathen again the Christian.

He kept pointing out that I would be in hell and in torment. Or that I wouldn't have family around (that so supposed to be bad?) I'd have all sorts of bad things going happening to me.

I just kept saying "So?" He couldn't come up with one reason why I should convert if I didn't care about where I might end up if I didn't. :bigredgri

It was one of the better hours that day.:uhhuhuh:

[Calli]

I tended to assume all Southern States were part of the Bible Belt (going back in the box _inthebox_).
We're not South, we're Southwest, and proud of it. Here's an anecdote for you, that you might find amusing. In the South, they pride themselves on colorful language (not naughty-colorful, amusing-colorful.) In the West, we tend to pride ourselves on being grammatically correct (well, correct for America, but let's not go there....) except Southern California, which is a different culture of its' own. My boyfriend is from the South, or at least a lot of his language is. I can't tell you how many times something comes out of his mouth that I understand absolutely not one word of!



I'll never forget the time that my Sunday School teacher (yes I did have to go) set up a practice round of 'convert the unbelieving'. I got to play the 'going to hell' heathen again the Christian.

He kept pointing out that I would be in hell and in torment. Or that I wouldn't have family around (that so supposed to be bad?) I'd have all sorts of bad things going happening to me.

I just kept saying "So?" He couldn't come up with one reason why I should convert if I didn't care about where I might end up if I didn't. :bigredgri

It was one of the better hours that day.:uhhuhuh:
What a wonderful story! Thanks for sharing it. I feel the same way. I have no desire to spend eternity with the very people I don't want around me now, which includes many members of my family of origin. And, I can't stand being cold. Where's the bad? And after some of my abusive ex's, I already know how to live with torment. So what?

[Shaedema]

What a wonderful story! Thanks for sharing it. I feel the same way. I have no desire to spend eternity with the very people I don't want around me now, which includes many members of my family of origin. And, I can't stand being cold. Where's the bad? And after some of my abusive ex's, I already know how to live with torment. So what?

:uhhuhuh: My answers got the kid (okay I was a kid too, but still) so frustrated that at the end he finally said, 'fine have it your way' and I said "thankyou" :bigredgri

[David19]

We're not South, we're Southwest, and proud of it. Here's an anecdote for you, that you might find amusing. In the South, they pride themselves on colorful language (not naughty-colorful, amusing-colorful.) In the West, we tend to pride ourselves on being grammatically correct (well, correct for America, but let's not go there....) except Southern California, which is a different culture of its' own. My boyfriend is from the South, or at least a lot of his language is. I can't tell you how many times something comes out of his mouth that I understand absolutely not one word of!

Thanks for correcting me, I didn't know that, I actually thought Arizona was in the west in, or near, California. I can understand the thing about accents, it's kind of like people from Newcastle, Liverpool, and Manchester, if they have really strong, think northern (that is, northern England) accents, I find it hard to understand what they're saying (that said, I find Manchester accents quite hot!).

[Calli]

Thanks for correcting me, I didn't know that, I actually thought Arizona was in the west in, or near, California. I can understand the thing about accents, it's kind of like people from Newcastle, Liverpool, and Manchester, if they have really strong, think northern (that is, northern England) accents, I find it hard to understand what they're saying (that said, I find Manchester accents quite hot!).

David, sweetie, methinks you need to look at a map to understand this. Yes, we are next to California. California, Arizona, New Mexico, and part of Texas are considered the Southwestern region. The rest of Texas, Oklahoma, and East from there are considered the South. There are about six geographical regions in our country, not counting Alaska and Hawaii. That number might not be accurate. Geography isn't my strongest suit.

My little anecdote wasn't so much about accent as word usage. He actually doesn't have an accent, but his word choices are sometimes meant to be amusing, but end up confusing. lol Apparently what I've always thought was my ice cream scoop is actually a "dipper," but my spatula isn't a "flipper." It's a spatula. I could almost understand if there was some consistency there.

And, David, I think you think any accent is hot, if spoken in a deep, male voice! ;)

[Thunder]

David, sweetie, methinks you need to look at a map to understand this. Yes, we are next to California. California, Arizona, New Mexico, and part of Texas are considered the Southwestern region. The rest of Texas, Oklahoma, and East from there are considered the South. There are about six geographical regions in our country, not counting Alaska and Hawaii. That number might not be accurate. Geography isn't my strongest suit.

My little anecdote wasn't so much about accent as word usage. He actually doesn't have an accent, but his word choices are sometimes meant to be amusing, but end up confusing. lol Apparently what I've always thought was my ice cream scoop is actually a "dipper," but my spatula isn't a "flipper." It's a spatula. I could almost understand if there was some consistency there.

And, David, I think you think any accent is hot, if spoken in a deep, male voice! ;)My wife is from the "South"... born in Tenn and raised outside of Roanoke, VA. While her accent absolutely melted me... her use of the language was... let's just say, creative. Here in the "The North" (NY).. we at least know when we are butchering the language. Many of my friends from Virginia honestly do not even realize that the things that they say are colloquialisms and not proper english.

[Calli]

Many of my friends from Virginia honestly do not even realize that the things that they say are colloquialisms and not proper english.

I've found that, too. When he said something about the "dipper" I thought "Huh? The only dippers I know are the Big and Little ones." So, I asked him what he meant. He said something like "The dipper. You used it for ice cream." First of all, repeating the words I didn't understand doesn't make me understand them, yet that's what he always does, because that's the word for the thing, right? (And, oddly, telling him that it, in fact, isn't the word for the thing doesn't cause him to have any inclination to make a mental note. I've told him I have no desire to be bilingual, but that apparently isn't a factor, either.) And secondly, I still don't know if he meant the scoop, the bowl, the spoon, or the microwave where I warmed the hot fudge sauce. Okay, I'm stretching here. In this case, logic dictated that scooping and dipping are similar activities. But, I'm telling you, logic doesn't always apply. Sometimes, there is no way to determine which "thingie" he's referring to. And, here's the kicker - when I asked him if he meant the ice cream scoop, he did, in fact, know what I meant. Sometimes, if feels like he's speaking a secret language that is designed to confuse me (very easily done, I might add. I keep telling people it's not much of a sport - no challenge - but that never stops people from playing. ~sigh~) But he's not trying to. That's what's weird.

I think this one is partly generational, rather than geographical (there is a significant difference in our ages.) He often says things like "Are you trying to go all Yoda on me?" Okay, I know who Yoda is, so I can get this one, but I'm not anywhere near the movie buff he is. I've spent my life doing things, not watching things on a screen. (no judgment intended, just a difference in choices on how to spend time) If I said "You're going all Susie Maraschino on me" would you know what I meant? (That isn't a movie reference is it? lol) Yet, he constantly says stuff like that.

You know, I think maybe I know what it is. Maybe. Out here, we think in terms of words. Maybe Southerners think in terms of concepts and phrases. And maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Just in case it didn't come across, this was all done tongue-in-cheek, not bitch-in-the-house. Frustrating as it can be, it has its' funny side.

[Twinkle]

The easiest thing to do is listen politely and walk away. I mean really - does anyone who is not Christian really care what Jesus thinks?

[Caitlin.ann]

The easiest thing to do is listen politely and walk away. I mean really - does anyone who is not Christian really care what Jesus thinks?

Good point..and I agree. :)

[Lunacie]

The easiest thing to do is listen politely and walk away. I mean really - does anyone who is not Christian really care what Jesus thinks?

It should also be fine to say "Thanks but I'm not interested."
We don't have to listen politely to the same speil dozens of times.

[Cunae]

I've heard numerous people here talk about people hitting them up about religion, namely Christianity. Where are these things happening? In airports, on campuses, certain areas of town?

I've never been approached by anyone on the street, only by the JW's at home, and I've lived from here to the east coast. The only time I was actually approached was in college and that was by Moonies (do they still exist?) I did find a Mormon brochure in the doctor's office once, too.

[Caitlin.ann]

I've heard numerous people here talk about people hitting them up about religion, namely Christianity. Where are these things happening? In airports, on campuses, certain areas of town?

I've never been approached by anyone on the street, only by the JW's at home, and I've lived from here to the east coast. The only time I was actually approached was in college and that was by Moonies (do they still exist?) I did find a Mormon brochure in the doctor's office once, too.

Definitely on campuses. On the day I went into my university for my placement testing a group of fundies (very similar to WBC) were there preaching and yelling obscenities. My guy friend who was with me was called a faggot and I think I was called a whore. Another time people were handing out Bibles. I've had people come door to door and I've had others hand me, or rather have their children, hand me invitations to their church at the Home Depot (my work) of all places! Then fairs a few times and various other places. If I can avoid them I do.

[Lunacie]

I've been surprised that we don't get door-to-door pushers here, I had lots more of them knock on my door when I lived in a tiny little town. Don't know where they kept coming from but it wasn't the local churches.

I've seen them at faires as well. But I don't hang out on college campuses and haven't seen them in the stores or the malls.

The worst is friends and family who forward all those emails. I blocked one friend and one aunt and my sis-in-law finally took the hint and respects that I have a different religion.

[David19]

David, sweetie, methinks you need to look at a map to understand this. Yes, we are next to California. California, Arizona, New Mexico, and part of Texas are considered the Southwestern region. The rest of Texas, Oklahoma, and East from there are considered the South. There are about six geographical regions in our country, not counting Alaska and Hawaii. That number might not be accurate. Geography isn't my strongest suit.

My little anecdote wasn't so much about accent as word usage. He actually doesn't have an accent, but his word choices are sometimes meant to be amusing, but end up confusing. lol Apparently what I've always thought was my ice cream scoop is actually a "dipper," but my spatula isn't a "flipper." It's a spatula. I could almost understand if there was some consistency there.

And, David, I think you think any accent is hot, if spoken in a deep, male voice! ;)

Thanks, geography isn't my strongest point either, so, I actually have no idea about where the U.S. States are (I know NY is on the east, California is on the west, and Texas is in the south, the rest are somewhere in the middle, in my head!).

And, yes, you're probably very right, I do find any accent hot, if the guy has a good body ;)!.


The easiest thing to do is listen politely and walk away. I mean really - does anyone who is not Christian really care what Jesus thinks?

That would be the easiest thing. I don't mind learning about Christianity from my friends or, from my own research, but, I don't want any religion shoved on me (including Pagan ones).


It should also be fine to say "Thanks but I'm not interested."
We don't have to listen politely to the same speil dozens of times.

Very true :) :thumbsup:, you could also do what my dad and my mum do, anytime any JW's come to the door, they don't answer it (you can tell them, 'cause they are generally in suits, and just a genunite appearance about them). That or just let my dog run up and scare them away (he's not violent, except if he were protecting me, but, he's big, and barks a lot). Most people don't answer the doors or just slam it in their faces, I'm surprised more people here haven't, instead of complaining about them.


I've heard numerous people here talk about people hitting them up about religion, namely Christianity. Where are these things happening? In airports, on campuses, certain areas of town?

I've never been approached by anyone on the street, only by the JW's at home, and I've lived from here to the east coast. The only time I was actually approached was in college and that was by Moonies (do they still exist?) I did find a Mormon brochure in the doctor's office once, too.

I haven't, except once in the street, and when JW's come to the door. Like I said, I think if it's really common in the U.S., it's says more about the U.S..


Definitely on campuses. On the day I went into my university for my placement testing a group of fundies (very similar to WBC) were there preaching and yelling obscenities. My guy friend who was with me was called a faggot and I think I was called a whore. Another time people were handing out Bibles. I've had people come door to door and I've had others hand me, or rather have their children, hand me invitations to their church at the Home Depot (my work) of all places! Then fairs a few times and various other places. If I can avoid them I do.

That's really shit about what they called you and your friend, and doesn't sound very Christian to me (they weren't part of Fred Phelp's church, were they?!). I wouldn't be bothered about the invitations, it would just go into the recycle bin we have, but, the insults are too far.

[Caitlin.ann]

That's really shit about what they called you and your friend, and doesn't sound very Christian to me (they weren't part of Fred Phelp's church, were they?!). I wouldn't be bothered about the invitations, it would just go into the recycle bin we have, but, the insults are too far.

They were very similar I think. They were yelling obscenities and insults at everyone though what hit me worst was that they had young children there who they were indoctrinating.

[LacyRoze]

We have our church's van parked in our driveway,(people kept stealing the gas out of it at church), and I still get people from other churches coming to my door. :giggle:

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

I think that is the problem, for some reason American Christians (not all, but, a lot) do seem to be more, how can I say it, crazier than other Christians in the world (granted there are some African Churches which could be included in that list), in Iceland, Asatru is a legal religion, people follow it openly, or whatever religion they want, over here in the UK, even though, officially, we're a Church of England country, we're very, very secular, and we put up Christmas decorations for Christmas, and Diwali decorations at Diwali (the Hindu festival of Lights for those that don't know), you can be Wiccan, Heathen, Hellenic recon, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Atheist, whatever, etc, and most people won't care, it's also completely legal for a Satanist to hold their rituals in the Royal Navy (there are still some idiots and jerks around, but, they are definitely the minority, although you'd probably be thought a bit wierd for holding any religious beliefs at all), as far as I know, it's the same in Australia. BTW, I'm not trying to put down America, there are a lot of great things that I like about it, and the admire, I just mean, that, it seems to be, mostly, the American Christians who the more wierd (to put it nicely) out of all Christians, so, I don't think Christianity, per-se, should be blamed.

I think that America is very steeped in the media. Our media is very based in dichotomy. Us vs. them, good vs. evil, etc. This leads to a very competitive audience, generally a productive populous, but a sectarian one.

[David19]

They were very similar I think. They were yelling obscenities and insults at everyone though what hit me worst was that they had young children there who they were indoctrinating.

It sounds like they are very, very close, maybe it's run by Fred Phelp's brother!.


We have our church's van parked in our driveway,(people kept stealing the gas out of it at church), and I still get people from other churches coming to my door. :giggle:

It just shows some denominations want to convert other Christian denominations to them, even Christians aren't safe from the Evangelical Christians!.

[Darth Brooks]

I've heard numerous people here talk about people hitting them up about religion, namely Christianity. Where are these things happening? In airports, on campuses, certain areas of town?

I've never been approached by anyone on the street, only by the JW's at home, and I've lived from here to the east coast. The only time I was actually approached was in college and that was by Moonies (do they still exist?) I did find a Mormon brochure in the doctor's office once, too.

All I have to do is walk outside.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

I've heard numerous people here talk about people hitting them up about religion, namely Christianity. Where are these things happening? In airports, on campuses, certain areas of town?

I've never been approached by anyone on the street, only by the JW's at home, and I've lived from here to the east coast. The only time I was actually approached was in college and that was by Moonies (do they still exist?) I did find a Mormon brochure in the doctor's office once, too.

I ride the train and am usually accosted by an elderly gentleman wearing a sandwich board covered in pictures of people burning, being ripped apart by demons, as well as other religious slogans and pamphlets. He hands out pamphlets on trains and in the train stations. He's actually a really nice guy, the sign is a little off-putting though.

[Caitlin.ann]

All I have to do is walk outside.

Yeah same if you think about it. People don't have to go door to door anymore to profess their love for Christ or their faith. All they have to do is jump on the internet, or buy a t-shirt or bumper sticker, or put a jesus fish on their car, put up a billboard, etc. You're seeing less and less door to door prolestyzing and more and more personal decoration preaching.

[Calli]

I've heard numerous people here talk about people hitting them up about religion, namely Christianity. Where are these things happening? In airports, on campuses, certain areas of town?

I've never been approached by anyone on the street, only by the JW's at home, and I've lived from here to the east coast. The only time I was actually approached was in college and that was by Moonies (do they still exist?) I did find a Mormon brochure in the doctor's office once, too.

Well, there is the door-to-door, but I just tell them "We have a religious path we're happy with, and I'm not interested," then close the door. One time it was some guy in a bar. I was trying to do karaoke, and he originally approached me to talk about that, which is fine. At that point, I was trying to get a karaoke business off the ground, so I kinda needed to be friendly to anyone who expressed interest. That guy just wouldn't take no for an answer! The worst time when it happened to me was when I was people greeting at Wal-Mart. I kept telling the lady I was working, and didn't want to have this conversation, and she just wouldn't stop. I finally had to ignore her altogether. I don't know what the other customers thought.

The one that really pisses me off is a local church that hands out literature to and talks to kids who are outside playing, inviting them to their church. I guess they have a large kids program or something, and a bus. That is just wrong on so many levels. Nobody has any business approaching kids on the street! That could be a dangerous thing for the kids. And nobody has the right to talk to someone's kids about religion without the parents knowledge.

And then, of course, there's friends and family, like others have said.

[Vampiel]

I dont hate Christians either otherwise I would hate half my family. I met someone at drill recently probably one of the best people ive met in a while. Hes a very interesting person and a police officer that works for the sherrifs dept who has also been all around the world in the Navy. He used to work for internal affairs in the police dept to. Really good guy and smart to, made me think about some things about life in general. He's a Baptist.

I dont hate the concept of Christianity. Hate is such a strong word to me, there are very few groups of people or concepts that I would say that I hate, rapists being the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

I dislike a lot of things that Christianity can bring to the table. Such as the concept that human nature is a sin. The concept that there is only one true faith and god. The concept of hell.

Although I do hate it in the way that it has been used as motivation for many terrible things but I also know that many Christians hate that about it to.

[David19]

I think that America is very steeped in the media. Our media is very based in dichotomy. Us vs. them, good vs. evil, etc. This leads to a very competitive audience, generally a productive populous, but a sectarian one.

I didn't know that, maybe, that just leads to people thinking "we have to against those other people, who are different to each other", or, maybe, since most people no longer see people with a different skin colour as "the enemy", they've moved on to people with different beliefs.

[David19]

I ride the train and am usually accosted by an elderly gentleman wearing a sandwich board covered in pictures of people burning, being ripped apart by demons, as well as other religious slogans and pamphlets. He hands out pamphlets on trains and in the train stations. He's actually a really nice guy, the sign is a little off-putting though.

I'd probably think the demonic artwork was quite cool!.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

I didn't know that, maybe, that just leads to people thinking "we have to against those other people, who are different to each other", or, maybe, since most people no longer see people with a different skin colour as "the enemy", they've moved on to people with different beliefs.

From what I've observed, most people (not all by a long shot) need something to compete against, or something to push against to motivate them. Some people are motivated by hate, some by greed, even some by altruism. Each of those things has an opposite, and rather than seeing that opposite as something to learn from, or just another amplitude on the wave of existence it's seen as a challenge to their own belief.

[Thunder]

From what I've observed, most people (not all by a long shot) need something to compete against, or something to push against to motivate them. Some people are motivated by hate, some by greed, even some by altruism. Each of those things has an opposite, and rather than seeing that opposite as something to learn from, or just another amplitude on the wave of existence it's seen as a challenge to their own belief.I agree. For many, climbing up means reaching up and pulling yourself to new heights. Sadly, for others it means looking for something or someone to step on. Too many people actually need someone to hate.

[David19]

From what I've observed, most people (not all by a long shot) need something to compete against, or something to push against to motivate them. Some people are motivated by hate, some by greed, even some by altruism. Each of those things has an opposite, and rather than seeing that opposite as something to learn from, or just another amplitude on the wave of existence it's seen as a challenge to their own belief.


I agree. For many, climbing up means reaching up and pulling yourself to new heights. Sadly, for others it means looking for something or someone to step on. Too many people actually need someone to hate.

Unfortunately, that's very true.

[Calli]

I didn't know that, maybe, that just leads to people thinking "we have to against those other people, who are different to each other", or, maybe, since most people no longer see people with a different skin colour as "the enemy", they've moved on to people with different beliefs.

Sadly, a lot of people still see those of different ethnic origins as the enemy. We pat ourselves on the back for being so progressive, especially after electing our new President, but many people still are not. We've made tremendous progress in the last 50 years, but we still have a long way to go.


From what I've observed, most people (not all by a long shot) need something to compete against, or something to push against to motivate them. Some people are motivated by hate, some by greed, even some by altruism. Each of those things has an opposite, and rather than seeing that opposite as something to learn from, or just another amplitude on the wave of existence it's seen as a challenge to their own belief.

I agree with this, too. If we, as a species, could move beyond the them vs. us mentality, it would improve things so much.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

Sadly, a lot of people still see those of different ethnic origins as the enemy. We pat ourselves on the back for being so progressive, especially after electing our new President, but many people still are not. We've made tremendous progress in the last 50 years, but we still have a long way to go.



I agree with this, too. If we, as a species, could move beyond the them vs. us mentality, it would improve things so much.

The question that haunts me is: How do we move past it? How do we move out of a survival mind set that says "eliminated the weak the are competition for food, territory, and sex". For so long it's been the eat, *hug* and fight mentality, it's hardwired into us to look at what is different in others and see it as a weakness. How do we change something that is millions of years in the making?

[*oonagh*]

How do we change something that is millions of years in the making?

by using our evolved brains.

[Cunae]

The question that haunts me is: How do we move past it? How do we move out of a survival mind set that says "eliminated the weak the are competition for food, territory, and sex". For so long it's been the eat, *hug* and fight mentality, it's hardwired into us to look at what is different in others and see it as a weakness. How do we change something that is millions of years in the making?

But seeking out and nourishing the divine spark in each of us, the one that separates us from the animals (God bless 'em)

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

But seeking out and nourishing the divine spark in each of us, the one that separates us from the animals (God bless 'em)

So you would say that those that don't even believe in the divine spark have to seek it too? Sounds like escalating the issue rather than getting past it IMO.

[Calli]

The question that haunts me is: How do we move past it? How do we move out of a survival mind set that says "eliminated the weak the are competition for food, territory, and sex". For so long it's been the eat, *hug* and fight mentality, it's hardwired into us to look at what is different in others and see it as a weakness. How do we change something that is millions of years in the making?

Off the top of my head, I'd say the same way I raised my kids differently than I was raised - by making a conscious effort to do it differently. It's hard, and you can't change anyone but yourself, but maybe, just maybe, setting an example can influence someone else to change, too. At least, it's worth a shot.

[Twinkle]

Human nature is what it is - and while we may have the ability to intellectualize, we still have our baser instincts.

History can show us that we have never really changed. People have always hated, and they probably always will. We just change who we hate once it's been decided it's no longer politically correct to hate a specific group, culture, race, etc.

Conversely, there will always be those who see that this kind of behavior is not for the good - and so they will fight against it -

We cannot have one without the other.

To eradicate hate in order to have some sort of utopia is unrealistic and will ultimately fail.

It's been attempted before - and somewhere, some group, will always be considered "bad", "wrong", "immoral", etc.

It's the nature of humanity.

[Phoenix Blue]

Wow. That's really ... optimistic ... of you.

Me, I believe that reason can overcome instinct. Sure, those instincts are still buried in my hippocampus, but the decision of whether to act on them is mine to make.

[Nesta]

Wow. That's really ... optimistic ... of you.

Me, I believe that reason can overcome instinct. Sure, those instincts are still buried in my hippocampus, but the decision of whether to act on them is mine to make.

Totally agree. We all have choices to make.

[Cunae]

So you would say that those that don't even believe in the divine spark have to seek it too? Sounds like escalating the issue rather than getting past it IMO.


No one has to seek it. That's a choice. I believe it's inside all of us whether we seek it or not, put there with the soul, by a Creator. And I believe every atheist has that spark, too, which is what gives all humans being an "instinctive" sense of morality. Like not killing others or stealing or lying, though it doesn't prevent them from doing it because carnal desires can squelch the voice of that little spark. That's when depravity takes over.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Check these out , Kchoye...

Other methods , and possibility matrices...

http://www.geocities.com/arno_3/3/3-3.html


http://www.originalfalcon.com/b-undoing_yourself.php


http://www.paratheatrical.com/pages/books/angel.html


http://futurehi.net/docs/Metaprogramming.html


The question that haunts me is: How do we move past it? How do we move out of a survival mind set that says "eliminated the weak the are competition for food, territory, and sex". For so long it's been the eat, *hug* and fight mentality, it's hardwired into us to look at what is different in others and see it as a weakness. How do we change something that is millions of years in the making?

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

No one has to seek it. That's a choice. I believe it's inside all of us whether we seek it or not, put there with the soul, by a Creator. And I believe every atheist has that spark, too, which is what gives all humans being an "instinctive" sense of morality. Like not killing others or stealing or lying, though it doesn't prevent them from doing it because carnal desires can squelch the voice of that little spark. That's when depravity takes over.

I understand where you are coming from. I used to be a Christian, now I'm not so sure about anything much less the question of creation. My right and left brains have not reconciled that question yet. Even for someone who understands and empathizes with your statements, I have have a hard time really buying it.

Don't get me wrong, I've read some of what you have posted here. I can see that you are a sincere, strong, eloquent, and knowledgeable woman. I'm just not sure that's something that will fly as a universal truth. I understand it's your opinion and I respect that.

I stay up at nights wondering about how, our world culture will evolve. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Arabs, Shiites, Tribes, Americans, Native Americans, I'm talking the whole hugging nine hugging yards!! How will we, as a world culture, move to the next level. What is our Human Universal Truth? No offense meant ma'am but, hug God, what about us?

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

Check these out , Kchoye...

Other methods , and possibility matrices...

http://www.geocities.com/arno_3/3/3-3.html


http://www.originalfalcon.com/b-undoing_yourself.php


http://www.paratheatrical.com/pages/books/angel.html


http://futurehi.net/docs/Metaprogramming.html

The books may have to wait, due to finances, but copied the two essays and will read them and get back to you.

Thanks Mr Blackwolf!

[Darth Brooks]

Sadly, a lot of people still see those of different ethnic origins as the enemy. We pat ourselves on the back for being so progressive, especially after electing our new President, but many people still are not. We've made tremendous progress in the last 50 years, but we still have a long way to go.

True, but look at the bright side...At least there's always room for improvement.


I agree with this, too. If we, as a species, could move beyond the them vs. us mentality, it would improve things so much.None of us will see it in our own lifetimes, but I believe it is destined to happen eventually. Or, we will destroy ourselves before we reach that point - but either way, there will be an end to war.


But seeking out and nourishing the divine spark in each of us, the one that separates us from the animals (God bless 'em)

There is really nothing which separates us from the animals, except perhaps that the animals do not try to justify their savage behaviors with any ideology, neither religious nor political. In this way they are already closer to the Source than we are.


Human nature is what it is - and while we may have the ability to intellectualize, we still have our baser instincts.

History can show us that we have never really changed. People have always hated, and they probably always will. We just change who we hate once it's been decided it's no longer politically correct to hate a specific group, culture, race, etc.

Conversely, there will always be those who see that this kind of behavior is not for the good - and so they will fight against it -

We cannot have one without the other.

To eradicate hate in order to have some sort of utopia is unrealistic and will ultimately fail.

It's been attempted before - and somewhere, some group, will always be considered "bad", "wrong", "immoral", etc.

It's the nature of humanity.

It will not always be this way - nature is always changing, always in flux, and we will either khepher (http://www.aztriad.com/kheper.html) or we will go extinct. Personally I think working to promote the khepher of our species toward Reconciliation is definitely worthwhile, even if I will never actually see this development for myself.

[David19]

Sadly, a lot of people still see those of different ethnic origins as the enemy. We pat ourselves on the back for being so progressive, especially after electing our new President, but many people still are not. We've made tremendous progress in the last 50 years, but we still have a long way to go.

Very true, there are still bigots, and, unfortunately, right now, it looks like there always will be, at this stage of our evolution anyway.


Wow. That's really ... optimistic ... of you.

Me, I believe that reason can overcome instinct. Sure, those instincts are still buried in my hippocampus, but the decision of whether to act on them is mine to make.

I agree, while the darkness exists within us, we have our wills whether to act on it, and we can overcome it, unfortunately, there will always be those that let their darkness consume them, but, that isn't to say, it's not possible to overcome it.

[Twinkle]

Wow. That's really ... optimistic ... of you.

Me, I believe that reason can overcome instinct. Sure, those instincts are still buried in my hippocampus, but the decision of whether to act on them is mine to make.


I don't disagree - but you're looking at the choice only - not what influences that choice.

There are environmental factors to consider, internal thoughts and feelings, and subjective perception of a situation.

One generation alone cannot change how we as a society view things - you would have to have whole generations over a period of time make a change of this magnitude. And that would mean changing environmental factors and making everyone think the same. Which, will not happen - and quite frankly, I hope to the Gods that it *never* happens. A world of smiling, tolerant people in a utopian society sounds like something horrible to me. Diversity, discord, unrest - it's necessary for society to grow and even flourish.

Even if we did have a tolerant, utopian society - we would also have someone in control making sure that it stays that way - that everyone is following the status quo of "tolerance". Enter the thought police.

It was attempted in the late sixties and seventies - and while it's better, I daresay a number of people from different ethnicities and lifestyles would disagree with the statement that things have changed all that much.

I'm a realist. We must look at things as they are, not what we would like it to be.

Only then can we make change that is constructive and feasible.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

I don't disagree - but you're looking at the choice only - not what influences that choice.

There are environmental factors to consider, internal thoughts and feelings, and subjective perception of a situation.

One generation alone cannot change how we as a society view things - you would have to have whole generations over a period of time make a change of this magnitude. And that would mean changing environmental factors and making everyone think the same. Which, will not happen - and quite frankly, I hope to the Gods that it *never* happens. A world of smiling, tolerant people in a utopian society sounds like something horrible to me. Diversity, discord, unrest - it's necessary for society to grow and even flourish.

Even if we did have a tolerant, utopian society - we would also have someone in control making sure that it stays that way - that everyone is following the status quo of "tolerance". Enter the thought police.

It was attempted in the late sixties and seventies - and while it's better, I daresay a number of people from different ethnicities and lifestyles would disagree with the statement that things have changed all that much.

I'm a realist. We must look at things as they are, not what we would like it to be.

Only then can we make change that is constructive and feasible.

Yes but with each successive generation we can make the effort to thwart the animal instinct and use reason to make decisions. Anyone can change who they are, they just have to decide what's more important, clinging to their "personality" or suppressing the animal for the greater good.

[Calli]

I don't disagree - but you're looking at the choice only - not what influences that choice.

There are environmental factors to consider, internal thoughts and feelings, and subjective perception of a situation.

One generation alone cannot change how we as a society view things - you would have to have whole generations over a period of time make a change of this magnitude. And that would mean changing environmental factors and making everyone think the same. Which, will not happen - and quite frankly, I hope to the Gods that it *never* happens. A world of smiling, tolerant people in a utopian society sounds like something horrible to me. Diversity, discord, unrest - it's necessary for society to grow and even flourish.

Even if we did have a tolerant, utopian society - we would also have someone in control making sure that it stays that way - that everyone is following the status quo of "tolerance". Enter the thought police.

It was attempted in the late sixties and seventies - and while it's better, I daresay a number of people from different ethnicities and lifestyles would disagree with the statement that things have changed all that much.

I'm a realist. We must look at things as they are, not what we would like it to be.

Only then can we make change that is constructive and feasible.

I see what you're saying. I think change of that magnitude is an extremely time-consuming process. In my lifetime, I've seen some pretty big improvements. (I was born before the civil rights stuff in the 60's, although I don't remember any of it - too young, and now we have a black president.) There is still a great deal of racial unrest in the inner cities, even out West here. I have no idea how bad things are in the South, or on the East Coast. I think it's incredibly sad that some people still think that what a person has on the outside matters more than what they have on the inside, but at least it's not a majority way of thinking anymore.

[Twinkle]

Yes but with each successive generation we can make the effort to thwart the animal instinct and use reason to make decisions. Anyone can change who they are, they just have to decide what's more important, clinging to their "personality" or suppressing the animal for the greater good.


You're still dealing with (among other things), human psychology. We are still a product of our home environment, our peer groups, and so on. All of this together creates a "social norm."

The only way to get rid of "stinking thinking" is to start at the root. And that root goes back before Christ.

You also have to consider that "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

Look at George Orwell's 1984. A fictitious scenario, but nonetheless frightening when you try to get everyone to be the same.

Don't get me wrong - I despise prejudice. I am intolerant of intolerance - but this is a very slippery slope that may create the exact *opposite* of what it is we are trying to achieve.

[*oonagh*]

You're still dealing with (among other things), human psychology. We are still a product of our home environment, our peer groups, and so on. All of this together creates a "social norm."



which is ever-changing and can change in the direction of appreciating each others' differences instead of fearing them.

one day ethnicity, religion, non-religion, etc. just *won't* be a big deal.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

You're still dealing with (among other things), human psychology. We are still a product of our home environment, our peer groups, and so on. All of this together creates a "social norm."

The only way to get rid of "stinking thinking" is to start at the root. And that root goes back before Christ.

You also have to consider that "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

Look at George Orwell's 1984. A fictitious scenario, but nonetheless frightening when you try to get everyone to be the same.

Don't get me wrong - I despise prejudice. I am intolerant of intolerance - but this is a very slippery slope that may create the exact *opposite* of what it is we are trying to achieve.

Every day the social norm is changing. I can't help but feel good about that.

[Twinkle]

Tell that to the homosexuals in California.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

Tell that to the homosexuals in California.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

**edit** Oooohhh, I get what you're saying. I think it would be naive to assume that every change will stick. Regime changes happen, people have changes of heart, politics, etc. Sometimes change is two steps forward and one step back. We can't be discouraged by it. I am a firm proponent of continuing to try, I might get discouraged but I don't give up.

The choice that we have is to continue forward on our own paths, or to bite the hype and let the Orwellian vision that you spoke of take over. I'm not talking to the point of martyrdom, IMO that's actually counter productive. I mean, each day, each decision, each breath, is taken with the idea and though of changing *my* existence. If others want to take the same tip, rock and roll. If not, that's their bag, I can't hate on them. I can only hope that they continue to grow and change and *become* as it were.

[*oonagh*]

Every day the social norm is changing. I can't help but feel good about that.


Tell that to the homosexuals in California.

obviously, we aren't *there* yet...hence the word "changing" as opposed to "has changed"

[Twinkle]

Do I really need to? If you don't know what I'm referring to, then you obviously have no idea if the social norm is changing or not.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I am not gay...

Yet a number of friends are bisexual , or homosexual...

And I live in California...

And , yes , they believe it will change...of course , that
may entail the Republican , and / or , conservative ,
strongholds of Southern Ca. , such as Orange County ,
and a few other major centers , falling into the ocean ,
or being destroyed by earthquakes...:uhhuhuh:


Yet , even things such as the fires , in Santa Barbara ,
which destroy homes of the wealthy...( though not all are
wealthy ) , can , and often do , cause people to rethink their
concepts , and develop compassion , and tolerance of others...

Sadly , it is often disasters , and being brought to the brink
of inner , or outer annihilation , which produce change , on
a large societal level...

I would hope for gentler transformative processes , yet , if
need be...

Then long live rock and roll !


Tell that to the homosexuals in California.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

Do I really need to? If you don't know what I'm referring to, then you obviously have no idea if the social norm is changing or not.

Slow your roll kiddo, I edited the post. There's really no need to be snide or critical. I'm here to learn from other people and am more than willing to learn from you, unless you are going to make veiled attempts at poking fun at me.

[Cunae]

The marriage and gays in the military discrimination are maddening. Why are we so in the dark ages on this stuff? Well, I guess we really are in the dark ages compared to Europe. It's embarassing, too.

[Twinkle]

Slow your roll kiddo, I edited the post. There's really no need to be snide or critical. I'm here to learn from other people and am more than willing to learn from you, unless you are going to make veiled attempts at poking fun at me.

I'm not being snide, I'm being me. I'm sorry that you read tone where none was intended.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

The marriage and gays in the military discrimination are maddening. Why are we so in the dark ages on this stuff? Well, I guess we really are in the dark ages compared to Europe. It's embarassing, too.


Too true, our constitution may have been written by progressives, but is sure is run by fundies!

[Twinkle]

The marriage and gays in the military discrimination are maddening. Why are we so in the dark ages on this stuff? Well, I guess we really are in the dark ages compared to Europe. It's embarassing, too.

It's deeply ingrained. People fear what they don't understand and demonize it.

If you were raised in an environment where homosexual love is considered "gross", "perverted", an "abomination against God" - well...there you go.

It's going to take a good long while before those ingrained prejudices are gone.

[Cunae]

It's deeply ingrained. People fear what they don't understand and demonize it.

If you were raised in an environment where homosexual love is considered "gross", "perverted", an "abomination against God" - well...there you go.

It's going to take a good long while before those ingrained prejudices are gone.


I was. Being raised ignorant doesn't mean any person has to stay that way. With exposure, even "accidental" for those kept secluded, to more progressive ideas you'd think we'd break those prejudices. I guess in some cases it just enforces prejudice, but is it really so often? That's the embarassing part.

[Twinkle]

Like attracts like. People don't like moving out of their comfort zones, and naturally hang with people who think like they do.

The good news is that there are others who like to think beyond what they've been taught and see all sides of things.

It's not so much embarassing as it is human behavior. It's how we're wired - we're social animals.

I suppose this is why I don't want to see an accepting, utopian, "evolved" society.

I think without challenging the "status quo", no one will ever understand what it is they believe about things - and more importantly - *why* they believe it.

[Vampiel]

Like attracts like. People don't like moving out of their comfort zones, and naturally hang with people who think like they do.

The good news is that there are others who like to think beyond what they've been taught and see all sides of things.

It's not so much embarassing as it is human behavior. It's how we're wired - we're social animals.

I suppose this is why I don't want to see an accepting, utopian, "evolved" society.

I think without challenging the "status quo", no one will ever understand what it is they believe about things - and more importantly - *why* they believe it.

This is true but more on a macro level. As far as societies in general throughout the world you can have cultures evolve to points of being more accepting in general. Looking back through history I do think we are slowly becoming more "enlightened" and this is made possible by our communications and coming to know that different doesnt mean scary. Especially in the recent past with the invention of the internet and the free flow of so much information I think will have a large impact on our species in general.

Look at how much power the West has gained and influence on the world in general without even being on occupying force. It comes from better education, a greater understanding of the concept of equality and freedom, control over world markets and keeping suppresive governments in check, and being more aware of each others intentions. I think our biggest obstical at this point are the a few of the major religions that still cling to dogma. I think science also has a major role, being that these advances that enable us to learn more about each other are discovered through it as well as a better understanding of the human physcology and universe in general.

I dont see that there could ever be a society that doesnt have its criminals, but I do see that societies and cultures can change over time for the better and that will spread.

[David19]

I am not gay...

Yet a number of friends are bisexual , or homosexual...

And I live in California...

And , yes , they believe it will change...of course , that
may entail the Republican , and / or , conservative ,
strongholds of Southern Ca. , such as Orange County ,
and a few other major centers , falling into the ocean ,
or being destroyed by earthquakes...:uhhuhuh:

Anything you can do to speed along that? ;).


Too true, our constitution may have been written by progressives, but is sure is run by fundies!

Progressive for their time maybe, but, definitely not progressive by our standards, I don't know too much about the U.S. Founding Fathers, but, I doubt they really intended to give people like me (LGBT people) rights, and, if I'm not mistaken, I don't think they even intended to give people of darker skin colour rights (I may be wrong about that, I think I may have read something similar). Unfortunately, some people in the U.S., particularly the politicians haven't evolved with the times. The same is true for some people over here too, some people still have problems with us, thinking we're "perverts" (and not just religious people either), or that gay men are a "danger" to young boys (which is total BS, 'cause studies have shown that it's something like over 90% of pediphiles are hetrosexual in nature - meaning older men = young girls, older women = young boys), they also don't want to give us the same marriage rights (we have civil partnerships, but, that's not marriage, it gives us legal and financial benefits, but, it's not a marriage, and it won't be truly equal until we can get married).

[Thunder]

It's deeply ingrained. People fear what they don't understand and demonize it.

If you were raised in an environment where homosexual love is considered "gross", "perverted", an "abomination against God" - well...there you go.

It's going to take a good long while before those ingrained prejudices are gone.
First we have to get everyone past this silly notion that there is a god. :smile:

[David19]

It's deeply ingrained. People fear what they don't understand and demonize it.

If you were raised in an environment where homosexual love is considered "gross", "perverted", an "abomination against God" - well...there you go.

It's going to take a good long while before those ingrained prejudices are gone.

That is very true, although I'm not sure if it will ever be completely gone, as LGBT people have been spoken against since history began, or near enough anyway, I know there are some people, even within the LGBT community who like to say pre-Christianity (or pre-Judaism), things were "perfect" or "better" for us, but, that's not true, I know ancient Greece and Rome are often held up as the "poster children" for same-sex love, but, it really wasn't equality, yes, a upper-class male could have sex with a young boy, or a teenage boy, but, it wasn't seen as love, or a relationship, at least, not in our terms, and people were still expected to go out and get married to a woman, have kids, do the whole hetrosexual thing, in no ancient society, as far as I'm aware, would I be able to be openly in an equal relationship with a boyfriend, I also doubt we would be able to hold hands in public or whatever (although there were some positive aspects back then, like amongst the Mayans, if the sons of nobles wanted male lovers, the nobles would get them for their sons, from "lower" classes, it wasn't perfect, obvously, as it was still slavery, but, the Mayan's didn't seem to see a problem with a male wanting a male partner).

Like you said, there's a lot of work to get rid of all the ingrained prejudices, some good work is being made, but, there's a long, long way to go.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

Anything you can do to speed along that? ;).



Progressive for their time maybe, but, definitely not progressive by our standards, I don't know too much about the U.S. Founding Fathers, but, I doubt they really intended to give people like me (LGBT people) rights, and, if I'm not mistaken, I don't think they even intended to give people of darker skin colour rights (I may be wrong about that, I think I may have read something similar). Unfortunately, some people in the U.S., particularly the politicians haven't evolved with the times. The same is true for some people over here too, some people still have problems with us, thinking we're "perverts" (and not just religious people either), or that gay men are a "danger" to young boys (which is total BS, 'cause studies have shown that it's something like over 90% of pediphiles are hetrosexual in nature - meaning older men = young girls, older women = young boys), they also don't want to give us the same marriage rights (we have civil partnerships, but, that's not marriage, it gives us legal and financial benefits, but, it's not a marriage, and it won't be truly equal until we can get married).

I absolutely agree with you. The LGBT community deserves the exact same rights as everyone else. Restricting rights to people of a different sexual preferences is so Big Brother it's not even funny. I don't see how it's any different than saying that a black man has 3/5 of a vote. I certainly don't see it any differently than, blocking women from the poles.

[*oonagh*]

Like you said, there's a lot of work to get rid of all the ingrained prejudices, some good work is being made, but, there's a long, long way to go.

there *is* a long way to go. but, that *doesn't* mean we won't get there though it may take a thousand years (or longer). we should never give up on the notion that we *can* and *will* evolve into a more positive and accepting species.

[Twinkle]

there *is* a long way to go. but, that *doesn't* mean we won't get there though it may take a thousand years (or longer). we should never give up on the notion that we *can* and *will* evolve into a more positive and accepting species.


*positive* and *accepting* are subjective words that have different meanings for different people. What one person perceives as positive another may find completely negative - if only because they disagree.

This is what I'm talking about when we discuss creating a society that is so darn wonderful.

[ravenmyst]

My issue is with lack of respect. I was very respectful while visiting the Vatican and all the other churches but felt the group singing " give me that old time religion" in the pompei theater just a bit rude. But I may have just been over sensitive after seeing so much of pagan sacred things being taken over by early Christianity. As for the evolved conversation it seems that we are
Making progress in society but progress rarely happens overnight. Just teach those you can and hope reality weeds out those who can't feel powerful without standing on others backs.

[*oonagh*]

Just teach those you can and hope reality weeds out those who can't feel powerful without standing on others backs.

beautifully stated.

[Mors]

As a pagan, I've found that there is a rather large stigma in the pagan community revolving around christians. More often than not, they are considered the enemy. They are the group we keep our secrets from and try to deceive into believing we are something we are not when they ask too many questions. I'm going to come clean... that this makes me very sad. I don't believe that there should be so much hatred in our community against a specific group. There are many Christians I know who are very welcoming and accepting of different lifestyles, who aren't pushy about their path and who simply don't deserve to be marginalized.

Am I wrong in my view? Is there not as much hate in pagans as I think? I know that christians can be... well... irksome at times. But I just don't believe they are worthy of group specific disdain. Is there anyone here who is willing to back me up on this?

Edit: Ok, I've come to understand more clearly how people really think and it seems, to a certain degree, that I was mistaken. Things are a bit deeper than full hatred or anything of the sort. But keep conversing, if you feel the need to. :thumbsup:

Personally, I think you're right. I don't hate Christians. I don't hate Muslims. I don't hate Jews. I don't hate Satanists. I hate nobody, I think, not even fluffy bunnies (they would one day grew out of it), maybe except n00bs *grins*.

Yeah, the Monotheists (not just the Christians) could be irksome at times...but I think that's because they don't understand us, and sometimes they even don't want to try to understand us. Maybe there's no hatred...just no understanding.

My friend, who happens to know about my Paganism, was a Muslim, but she respected my religion; my choice. She even said that she doesn't care about people's religion, she respected them all. Remember that maybe, most people suck, but there are always diamonds in the rough. It's up to you how to find them :smile:

[kristadb]

felt the group singing " give me that old time religion" in the pompei theater just a bit rude.

8O

[~Nixie]

:)

[PrincessKLS]

I know, I've been guilty of it too but I've had a lot of negative experiences with fundamentalists but I've also had it rough with my pagan sister and few other pagans I've met (mostly online). It's funny how they are so against Christians but some of their mannerism mirror them.

[kristadb]

I had a "hate christians" moment this morning. We have a new director and I recieved a survey. It asked questions like "do you think we are meeting God's mission for us?" and "What changes have God told you we should make?"

For me, it's the assumption that they are the only right ones, that the rest of us are lost and in the dark. I wasn't happy as a christian, whereas I'm finding peace within the pagan realm. Pagan prayers don't bother me, but the public display of christianity does. I went out with the director for lunch at an asian restaurant where he loudly prayed for god to save souls and let us lead our lives in His way. I wanted to sink into the floor.

[kristadb]

...

I left out the part where three girls at work got engaged because they are virgins and can't have sex until they are married. So they've gotten engaged and are getting married by the end of the year.

So I'm hearing all day long is how great sex within marriage is about to be for them. Oh great god. :whistle:

[PrincessKLS]

...

I left out the part where three girls at work got engaged because they are virgins and can't have sex until they are married. So they've gotten engaged and are getting married by the end of the year.

So I'm hearing all day long is how great sex within marriage is about to be for them. Oh great god. :whistle:

OMG, I'm so over the purity issue, even people who claim not to be Christian or are bisexual are in support of purity. Drives me batty :smileroll

[Nicholas]

I don't Hate the purple people eater

[kristadb]

OMG, I'm so over the purity issue, even people who claim not to be Christian or are bisexual are in support of purity. Drives me batty :smileroll

I am surrounded by it. All day. Every day.

Please shoot me.

[Calli]

I am surrounded by it. All day. Every day.

Please shoot me.

I would, out of sympathy. Poor thing! :hugz:

[kristadb]

And when their marriages all end because the relationships were based on nothing more than the desire to make the two-backed beast, I'll have to listen to them whine about how discouraged they are in God's plan for them.

[Calli]

I'm glad someone else said that. :uhhuhuh: I think having the hots for each other, but refusing to act on it, is a stupid reason to get married. But then I also think refusing to gather some experience, so you know what you like and what you don't, is equally stupid. If someone won't take responsibility for their own body, who in the world do they think is supposed to? Just my opinion....

[kristadb]

That's what a husband is for. Shoosh and follow along.

:smileroll

[Calli]

Oh, that's how it works! Okay. Sorry. I be good now.... :smileroll

[kristadb]

The more you know :D

[Cunae]

I am surrounded by it. All day. Every day.

Please shoot me.

It's a fad. Unfortunately, it will affect these girls for a long, long time. Might work out; might not.

[Windsmith]

For a lot of people, I think it's a phase. They discover Paganism, or some deity claims them, and all of a sudden it's "ZOMGi'msoenlightenedandspecial." Then there's an instinctual movement away from everything we grew up with, which, for many of us, included Christianity. Most folks grow out of it eventually. They become secure in their own beliefs and practices and realize that we are all seekers on the same road, even if we take different scenic routes along the way. People who get stuck in the "Christians are teh ebil!" mode for extended periods of time strike me as suspect: to me, that says more about the individual's attitude towards themselves and their own religion than it does about Christianity or Christians.

[Caitlin.ann]

I had a "hate christians" moment this morning. We have a new director and I recieved a survey. It asked questions like "do you think we are meeting God's mission for us?" and "What changes have God told you we should make?"

For me, it's the assumption that they are the only right ones, that the rest of us are lost and in the dark. I wasn't happy as a christian, whereas I'm finding peace within the pagan realm. Pagan prayers don't bother me, but the public display of christianity does. I went out with the director for lunch at an asian restaurant where he loudly prayed for god to save souls and let us lead our lives in His way. I wanted to sink into the floor.
Where do you work? Thats more rhetorical for anything. Unless its a Christian based retail chain I'd complain to higher ups. I would not tolerate that well.

[kristadb]

Where do you work? Thats more rhetorical for anything. Unless its a Christian based retail chain I'd complain to higher ups. I would not tolerate that well.

It's a Christian-based non-profit :hahugh:

[kristadb]

It's a fad. Unfortunately, it will affect these girls for a long, long time. Might work out; might not.

It makes want to have children just so I can tell them that they are allowed to choose to have sex, or not, based on their own ideals, not someone else's.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

You could tell him his upper level CEO : Ie : God...

Told you to tell him :

"God said to quit using his name to promote your
personal , or business agendas"

...:smileroll...


I had a "hate christians" moment this morning. We have a new director and I recieved a survey. It asked questions like "do you think we are meeting God's mission for us?" and "What changes have God told you we should make?"

[Calli]

For a lot of people, I think it's a phase. They discover Paganism, or some deity claims them, and all of a sudden it's "ZOMGi'msoenlightenedandspecial." Then there's an instinctual movement away from everything we grew up with, which, for many of us, included Christianity. Most folks grow out of it eventually. They become secure in their own beliefs and practices and realize that we are all seekers on the same road, even if we take different scenic routes along the way. People who get stuck in the "Christians are teh ebil!" mode for extended periods of time strike me as suspect: to me, that says more about the individual's attitude towards themselves and their own religion than it does about Christianity or Christians.

I think you're absolutely right. It is a phase that many of us go through. Some of us get through it faster than others. I was one of the slow ones.

[kristadb]

You could tell him his upper level CEO : Ie : God...

Told you to tell him :

"God said to quit using his name to promote your
personal , or business agendas"

...:smileroll...

You should NEVER tell me things like this. Now it's all I'll think about in meetings :razz:

[Caitlin.ann]

It's a Christian-based non-profit :hahugh:

Oh then never mind. haha I'd keep my mouth shut then and simply state that you're "liberal in your beliefs" or not think of "God" as YHWH whenever someone mentions it.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Memo shall be faxed shortly...:bigredgri


You should NEVER tell me things like this. Now it's all I'll think about in meetings :razz:

[David19]

For a lot of people, I think it's a phase. They discover Paganism, or some deity claims them, and all of a sudden it's "ZOMGi'msoenlightenedandspecial." Then there's an instinctual movement away from everything we grew up with, which, for many of us, included Christianity. Most folks grow out of it eventually. They become secure in their own beliefs and practices and realize that we are all seekers on the same road, even if we take different scenic routes along the way. People who get stuck in the "Christians are teh ebil!" mode for extended periods of time strike me as suspect: to me, that says more about the individual's attitude towards themselves and their own religion than it does about Christianity or Christians.

I agree, I recently mentioned something similar to someone, some Pagans do seem to stuck in the anti-Christian mode, which, IMO, is just unhealthy. I mean, seriously, the amount of times some Pagans droan on and on about Christians or Christianity, I think they just need some serious psychotherapy, just get over it. I know some people might have real grievances with Christians or even the religion itself, and their the ones I'd feel for, but, I just don't feel bad for the majority of Pagans that indulge it, 'cause, in all honesty, they haven't suffered any persecution at all (like I remember reading this site awhile back that seemed to say Christians don't know what persecution is, and Pagans do, well, excuse me, I'd tell every Pagan who said that, to go live in Iraq, Afghanistan, Darfur, or even closer to home, in some places in South America (particularly, as an indigenious person), then, they can talk about persecution.

I think it's the ones that drone on about it that give Paganism a bad name.

[Louisvillian]

I don't really understand the animosity some neopagans hold towards Christians. I wasn't raised by Christians, so I don't understand the idea of gravitating away from what one grew up with. I never really had any bad experiences with Christians because of their religion.

It all seems like nonsense and immaturity to hold a grudge against people because of their religious beliefs.

[kristadb]

I was raised Christian and I was subjected to fair bit of mental abuse, manipulation, harassment and brainwashing by one of my own "kind." I can only imagine what some of those same people would do if they found out I've converted to paganism. In fact, many members of my family would disown me. Some would still accept me, even though I'm now going to hell. Others would exercise their right to only associate with Christians and never talk to me again, other than tell me that I'm going to burn in hell.

So, yeah, I can see why some people would harbour resentment :toofless:

[Louisvillian]

So, yeah, I can see why some people would harbour resentment :toofless:
Not really. I think it's quite stupid to generalise a group of well over a billion people based on a few bad examples.

[kristadb]

Then happy points for you.

[la tortuga]

I don't really understand the animosity some neopagans hold towards Christians. I wasn't raised by Christians, so I don't understand the idea of gravitating away from what one grew up with. I never really had any bad experiences with Christians because of their religion.

It all seems like nonsense and immaturity to hold a grudge against people because of their religious beliefs.

Yep. It boggles me. I grew up outside of Christianity in general, also. My grandfather took us to church when we were very little kids but my mother put a stop to it. I didn't get exposed to it until I was much older (middle school/high school) and had already been practicing Paganism for a while.

I had no reason to hate it, though it does confuse me more than somewhat. I've known some pretty awesome Christians and some pretty bad ones. I've known some awesome Pagans and some bad ones, too. I don't hate all Pagans or all Christians just because of what they believe in. I'd like to think of myself as an equal-opportunity hater. :P

[Cunae]

Yep. It boggles me. I grew up outside of Christianity in general, also. My grandfather took us to church when we were very little kids but my mother put a stop to it. I didn't get exposed to it until I was much older (middle school/high school) and had already been practicing Paganism for a while.

I had no reason to hate it, though it does confuse me more than somewhat. I've known some pretty awesome Christians and some pretty bad ones. I've known some awesome Pagans and some bad ones, too. I don't hate all Pagans or all Christians just because of what they believe in. I'd like to think of myself as an equal-opportunity hater. :P


Funny, I haven't met any "bad" pagans yet. I suppose they are out there but to date, none. I think they're more open-minded in general because their non-traditional paths make them so. Pretty cool.

[Caitlin.ann]

I don't really understand the animosity some neopagans hold towards Christians. I wasn't raised by Christians, so I don't understand the idea of gravitating away from what one grew up with. I never really had any bad experiences with Christians because of their religion.

It all seems like nonsense and immaturity to hold a grudge against people because of their religious beliefs.

It also screams nonsense and immaturity to put down every single one disagrees with and obsessing over certain topics such as Twilight.

[Louisvillian]

It also screams nonsense and immaturity to put down every single one disagrees with and obsessing over certain topics such as Twilight.

Completely different situation. One's a religion, the other's the fandom of a crap-ass book series.

[Mors]

Funny, I haven't met any "bad" pagans yet. I suppose they are out there but to date, none. I think they're more open-minded in general because their non-traditional paths make them so. Pretty cool.

I haven't meet one either...as for close-minded Muslims and Christians, there's a bunch over here. But no offense to them. I'm safe as long as I hide in my coffin...or is it a broom closet? :bigredgri

But sometimes though, I'm tired hearing them trying to brainwash anyone into believing that their religion is "the only true way".

Louisvillian, I agree with you.

[Lunacie]

Completely different situation. One's a religion, the other's the fandom of a crap-ass book series.

Ah, but those kind of folks have also obsessed over such works of pure fiction as "The Hobbit" by J.R.R. Tolkien and "Harry Potter" by J. K. Rowling, neither of whom are Pagan authors. We're talking a minority (thankfully) who feel the need to censor the whole world according to their own belief system. Just as nonsensical and immature as lumping all Christians in with those hate-mongers.

[David19]

I don't really understand the animosity some neopagans hold towards Christians. I wasn't raised by Christians, so I don't understand the idea of gravitating away from what one grew up with. I never really had any bad experiences with Christians because of their religion.

It all seems like nonsense and immaturity to hold a grudge against people because of their religious beliefs.

So, QFT, and I definitely agree with you, it's good to see others saying it, like I said before, I seriously think a lot of the Pagans who talk about how they've been treated by Christians or Christianity seriously need psychotherapy (but, then, I don't think they'd seek that, as if they got to the root of their problem, they could no longer complain about the "evil" Christians).


I was raised Christian and I was subjected to fair bit of mental abuse, manipulation, harassment and brainwashing by one of my own "kind." I can only imagine what some of those same people would do if they found out I've converted to paganism. In fact, many members of my family would disown me. Some would still accept me, even though I'm now going to hell. Others would exercise their right to only associate with Christians and never talk to me again, other than tell me that I'm going to burn in hell.

So, yeah, I can see why some people would harbour resentment :toofless:

I hope you don't take this as being offensive, but, IMO, those must be extreme examples and maybe you should consider some form of therapy to help you work out your childhood issues. I'm sorry your family feels like that, but, that's pretty extreme, most Christians that I know don't actually give a shit about what you believe (I've said it before, but, it seems to be an American thing, more specifically a Bible Belt thing).


Not really. I think it's quite stupid to generalise a group of well over a billion people based on a few bad examples.

Again, QFT :thumbsup: :).


Yep. It boggles me. I grew up outside of Christianity in general, also. My grandfather took us to church when we were very little kids but my mother put a stop to it. I didn't get exposed to it until I was much older (middle school/high school) and had already been practicing Paganism for a while.

I had no reason to hate it, though it does confuse me more than somewhat. I've known some pretty awesome Christians and some pretty bad ones. I've known some awesome Pagans and some bad ones, too. I don't hate all Pagans or all Christians just because of what they believe in. I'd like to think of myself as an equal-opportunity hater. :P

Again, I agree, personally, I think, offline, I get on with far more Christians, Atheists, Muslims, Jews, etc than with a lot of Pagans (I remember going to this Green Fair near my uni, where a lot of Hippies and hippy-ish people go, including a lot of Pagans and Pagan-ish people come, and, let's just say I wouldn't be seen out in public with them, they didn't know I was Pagan, they're not the type of people I'd go out clubbing with).




Funny, I haven't met any "bad" pagans yet. I suppose they are out there but to date, none. I think they're more open-minded in general because their non-traditional paths make them so. Pretty cool.

I'm sure you'd find them eventually!.

[Calli]

So, QFT, and I definitely agree with you, it's good to see others saying it, like I said before, I seriously think a lot of the Pagans who talk about how they've been treated by Christians or Christianity seriously need psychotherapy (but, then, I don't think they'd seek that, as if they got to the root of their problem, they could no longer complain about the "evil" Christians).

I think you have to experience it to fully understand. I have had therapy - lots of it. I know all the therapy tools, and now share them with others. I've had therapists tell me that having me in a group is like having another facilitator. It simply took me a long time to get past the scars. Sometimes it does take time.

(And, no, I'm not offended in any way. I know you love me, David. I'm just trying to share my stuff in the interests of promoting understanding.)

I still don't like the religion, but I have come to understand that it's a necessary alternative, and works for some kinds of people. Being who I am, I have to grant them the right, regardless of my personal feelings and resentments toward the religion itself.

[kristadb]

I don't need therapy. I don't hate Christians. I'm just annoyed by the ones I see every day.

[la tortuga]

Funny, I haven't met any "bad" pagans yet. I suppose they are out there but to date, none. I think they're more open-minded in general because their non-traditional paths make them so. Pretty cool.

Hah! People are judgmental, pig-headed, narrow-minded, and even sometimes downright cruel no matter what walk of life or path of spiritual enlightenment you examine. Many pagans get so obsessed with the fact that they've found their right way after essentially a lifetime of being told what to do that they tend to love to spout their new-found awesome beliefs all over other people because they deserve to be enlightened, too, you know.

... which, to me, speaks volumes about how some things will never change.

In my own faith, for example, there's a general rule that you're always doing it wrong, no matter who you are and how much or long you've studied. Someone else is always going to try to tell you that you ought to do it such and such way. What really gets to me is when they have these ideas that are not based soundly on the information we have available and they try to tell me how to lead my life because of a dream they had one night or a vision of some sort.

I'm a pretty good Heathen, even if I'm a "baby", at that, but I at least know that sometimes it's just not appropriate to give advice or tell others what they should do (though I do try to help out by giving a fresh perspective and perhaps give a few new ideas...), especially when it hasn't been requested. Simply put, I don't know enough about myself and figuring me out to justifiably tell someone else what they should/should not do, especially in their spiritual lives. It's something that took me a very long time and more than a few instances of making a total ass of myself to figure out and learn, being young and having a huge ego and all that. :thumbsup:


/snip

Again, QFT :thumbsup: :).



Again, I agree, personally, I think, offline, I get on with far more Christians, Atheists, Muslims, Jews, etc than with a lot of Pagans (I remember going to this Green Fair near my uni, where a lot of Hippies and hippy-ish people go, including a lot of Pagans and Pagan-ish people come, and, let's just say I wouldn't be seen out in public with them, they didn't know I was Pagan, they're not the type of people I'd go out clubbing with).



I'm sure you'd find them eventually!.

Ugh, yes, the Pagan population here where I live can be... disturbing... :fpatricks I dislike very much being around them and avoid it if I can help it, though I do like going to events like Pagan Pride Day, but I think it's all the interesting things to look at there, really, and not so much the people. I'm totally content to just not speak with anyone, though I'm not opposed to being approached by someone and having a conversation with them. More or less, though, I find these conversations to be quite vacuous, with very little, if any, of it being remembered by either party. That may just be the fact that I seem very quiet and boring in most IRL social situations. My propensity for formulating coherent thoughts and expressing them with words around other people decreases exponentially with every person within earshot, unfortunately.


Completely different situation. One's a religion, the other's the fandom of a crap-ass book series.

I didn't like them, either. I listened to a very small portion of the first one on book on tape driving down to Rockport once... I wasn't impressed and was quickly bored by the author's apparent ineptitude in using a thesaurus. The words "pale" and "white" can only go so far, you know.

Right, then, I think those walls of text ought to keep the Mongols at bay, for now. ;)

[Nicholas]

I don't hate gingerbread.

[lightdragon]

I am not gonna go through 23 pages. just the first few.

I can not say that I hate Christians. Was one briefly. in fact i borderlined on a fundie level. Although i wasn't a full pledged fundie.
Christianity just seemed dead to me and full of hate. most of the Christians i met were either fundies or racists. and they would let you rot after they felt you were converted. I don't think i got along well with Christians very well unless they abandoned it and became either atheists or something else. When I became pagan i had a few people try and convert me back to Christianity. And belieive it or not it was mostly other pagans. Very few Christians did so.

I found the pagans in my area extremely anti-social to borderline xenophobes. two pagans got chased out because they wanted to befriend me. But then again the area i live in is extremely anti-social reguardless of their religion. As some of them are extremely disturbed.

i usually keep to myself in my area. only outside the area do i mingle.

[kristadb]

I'm in a different position as I deal with 5000+ volunteers a year (directly) and the majority of them are Christians and the majority of those are evangelicals. Add on that they come to our facility to convert the homeless sinners. The majority of the volunteers I work with belong to evangelizing committes at their churches, etc.

Outside of this job, the only crazy Christians I ever met was my family and a handful of people I grew up with. I think it's because of the assumption that I automatically must be a Christian if I work at a Christian agency (not a outrageous assumption, for sure, and I had been one when I started). So I expect them to be a lot more open and truthful about their views and such because they feel 'safe'.

[la tortuga]

I'm in a different position as I deal with 5000+ volunteers a year (directly) and the majority of them are Christians and the majority of those are evangelicals. Add on that they come to our facility to convert the homeless sinners. The majority of the volunteers I work with belong to evangelizing committes at their churches, etc.

Outside of this job, the only crazy Christians I ever met was my family and a handful of people I grew up with. I think it's because of the assumption that I automatically must be a Christian if I work at a Christian agency (not a outrageous assumption, for sure, and I had been one when I started). So I expect them to be a lot more open and truthful about their views and such because they feel 'safe'.

This is interesting. I used to work for a company dealing in art supplies and Christian decor run by a Christian family and the vast majority of the people who worked there were not Christian. Every day we had people coming in and buying these intricate crosses for their walls and I had to set out the "Happy Birthday Jesus" cards before Christmas. It wasn't a big deal, really. I didn't talk to the customers too terribly much, they they always assumed I was Christian, which did not make me uncomfortable. It's a reasonable assumption, like you said.

Coolest part was having Sundays off, though, which I was grateful for because I either did some really intense homework before class on Monday or I spent it with my family. :thumbsup:

[Cunae]

Interesting... working for an employer/agency with different values/religious beliefs/motives than your own. I mean, a lot of us do that anyway, to some extent, but this is an organization with a religious agenda, I guess you'd say.

I applied for an administrative position with PETA when I was fresh out of college... I knew almost nothing about them other than I could bring my dog to work! I didn't get the position and, man, am I glad I didn't!! I can imagine how it would have affected my employment efforts later.

I wonder, however, if I would have "converted" to their insanity or looked, immediately, for another job. I was pretty young so I can't say.

[Burning Angel]

Hah! People are judgmental, pig-headed, narrow-minded, and even sometimes downright cruel no matter what walk of life or path of spiritual enlightenment you examine. Many pagans get so obsessed with the fact that they've found their right way after essentially a lifetime of being told what to do that they tend to love to spout their new-found awesome beliefs all over other people because they deserve to be enlightened, too, you know.

... which, to me, speaks volumes about how some things will never change.

I'm kinda like this...I don't care if people convert (frankly it's mostly my evangelical family I talk to about it lol...my mom has always listened to me but I think this is stretching her patience :bigredgri) but I'm kinda new, and it's all so damn exciting! I gotta tell everyone about my new discoveries...yes I'm an annoying little git, but I'm just hoping the new and awesome shininess wears off so I turn normal :P

Wait...I don't think I'll ever be normal again - if normal even existed ;)

~Jon :jon: :boing:

[LostSheep]

I must live in the wrong area. No one's ever tried to convert me, unless it's to a new phone network. Come to that, I don't really know if I know anyone overtly (let alone overly) religious from any angle. Consequently, I've never felt the need to dislike anyone based on whatever religion they may or may not be. There are plenty, of course, of people I dislike, but I don't know what religion they may or may not be. I suppose some might be Christian, but soem might be pagan, who knows.

[David19]

I think you have to experience it to fully understand. I have had therapy - lots of it. I know all the therapy tools, and now share them with others. I've had therapists tell me that having me in a group is like having another facilitator. It simply took me a long time to get past the scars. Sometimes it does take time.

(And, no, I'm not offended in any way. I know you love me, David. I'm just trying to share my stuff in the interests of promoting understanding.)

I still don't like the religion, but I have come to understand that it's a necessary alternative, and works for some kinds of people. Being who I am, I have to grant them the right, regardless of my personal feelings and resentments toward the religion itself.

I'm glad you're much better now, and the scars have healed/are healing :) :hugz:, I wasn't trying to be offensive, and I'm glad you saw that, for myself, I haven't been through the same type of experiences as you, so, maybe that's why I have a better opinion of Christianity, but, I'm glad you are healing :hugz:.


I don't need therapy. I don't hate Christians. I'm just annoyed by the ones I see every day.

I just meant, if you still have scars from your family and everything.


Ugh, yes, the Pagan population here where I live can be... disturbing... :fpatricks I dislike very much being around them and avoid it if I can help it, though I do like going to events like Pagan Pride Day, but I think it's all the interesting things to look at there, really, and not so much the people. I'm totally content to just not speak with anyone, though I'm not opposed to being approached by someone and having a conversation with them. More or less, though, I find these conversations to be quite vacuous, with very little, if any, of it being remembered by either party. That may just be the fact that I seem very quiet and boring in most IRL social situations. My propensity for formulating coherent thoughts and expressing them with words around other people decreases exponentially with every person within earshot, unfortunately.

I can understand your opinions of local Pagans, a lot of the more vocal ones aren't the best Pagans to know. For myself, I don't see any need to be take part in things like Pagan Pride Day, or campaign for Sabbats off, or whatever, etc (partly being 'cause I don't celebrate the Sabbats, and I don't actually have a religion right now). I'm sure you can get confident some day :).


I am not gonna go through 23 pages. just the first few.

I can not say that I hate Christians. Was one briefly. in fact i borderlined on a fundie level. Although i wasn't a full pledged fundie.
Christianity just seemed dead to me and full of hate. most of the Christians i met were either fundies or racists. and they would let you rot after they felt you were converted. I don't think i got along well with Christians very well unless they abandoned it and became either atheists or something else. When I became pagan i had a few people try and convert me back to Christianity. And belieive it or not it was mostly other pagans. Very few Christians did so.

I found the pagans in my area extremely anti-social to borderline xenophobes. two pagans got chased out because they wanted to befriend me. But then again the area i live in is extremely anti-social reguardless of their religion. As some of them are extremely disturbed.

i usually keep to myself in my area. only outside the area do i mingle.

That was probably in the Bible Belt, and, I think, those Christians need to change (actually, from my lurkings on Christian sites and forums, it seems some Christians, even Evangelical ones, have stated that as well). I hope you do find some cool Pagans to hang out with, though :).


I must live in the wrong area. No one's ever tried to convert me, unless it's to a new phone network. Come to that, I don't really know if I know anyone overtly (let alone overly) religious from any angle. Consequently, I've never felt the need to dislike anyone based on whatever religion they may or may not be. There are plenty, of course, of people I dislike, but I don't know what religion they may or may not be. I suppose some might be Christian, but soem might be pagan, who knows.

Very true, I know we probably live in different parts of the UK (not sure if you're in London?), but, the only Evangelical's we have to deal with are the phone companies and the insurance companies (my house just got a call from one today!).

[Lunacie]

I must live in the wrong area. No one's ever tried to convert me, unless it's to a new phone network. Come to that, I don't really know if I know anyone overtly (let alone overly) religious from any angle. Consequently, I've never felt the need to dislike anyone based on whatever religion they may or may not be. There are plenty, of course, of people I dislike, but I don't know what religion they may or may not be. I suppose some might be Christian, but soem might be pagan, who knows.

I have to admit, most of the annoying Christians that I've dealt with in the last 10 years have been online. I don't go looking for them, but now and then one will wander around trolling some of the Pagan forums. Even the one that I knew personally was an old friend that reconnected with me via Reunion.com and after asking her to leave me out of the mass forwards of preachy emails and being totally ignored, I blocked her.

We have one neighbor who invited my granddaughters to attend Vacation Bible School with her daughter last year. Only the oldest went along. This year she said she didn't want to go. When I told the mother that I think she found VBS boring she had the most hurt expression on her face. She simply didn't know what to say to the idea that her religion might be boring, or that I wasn't encouraging her to go along anyway. I haven't told her that I'm Wiccan, probably because she hasn't asked. She hasn't invited me to go to church with them. So no biggie there.

[Calli]

Do you think people are just more uptight about religion in the US than they are in Europe? Or just certain religions? I've never been to Europe, so I only know what I hear, but it seems more laid back about religion.

[kristadb]

In Canada, some evangelical sects are embracing the US conversion silliness.

But again, I've had more attempted conversions in the US than I've ever had in Canada. I guess I'm more of a sinner there lol

[la tortuga]

/snip
I can understand your opinions of local Pagans, a lot of the more vocal ones aren't the best Pagans to know. For myself, I don't see any need to be take part in things like Pagan Pride Day, or campaign for Sabbats off, or whatever, etc (partly being 'cause I don't celebrate the Sabbats, and I don't actually have a religion right now). I'm sure you can get confident some day :).
/snip

Well, the problem here is that the Pagan community here is very Wicca-centric. Not being Wiccan, I don't really have anyone to hang out with and discuss my beliefs with at these events, anyway. That, and when I tell people what I believe I get one of two responses: "zomg neo-Nazi!" or "lolwut?" So, yes, I can understand not really having any particular reason to go.

The stuff for sale at some of the events is just incredibly interesting, is all. That, and ours have live music by a local band :lol:

*sniffle* You mean... some day... I'll be something other than a wallflower? I'm touched! :lol:

[kristadb]

I also hear a lot of anti-christian stuff because I am a writer. Huh, you may ask. The truth of the matter is that I get several comments about me being a SciFi/fantasy writer (whic equals lies and devil worship) but, even worse, my writing friends who do erotica under pen names are still rooted out and publically condemned.

[WordFuzion]

I don't hate Christians. Alot of my friends and my very beloved Mother is one. I respect that they feel differently then me, and if anything I sometimes feel a little sorry for them when they dwell so much on sin and so little on joy and beauty at times. That being said, my Mother, while Christian, raised me with the fact that God is many things to many people. :)

My problem with Christians is when they start saying everyone who isn't doing things THEIR way is wrong an hellbound. I don't expect everyone to be Wiccan, so why do they get to expect everyone to be Christian? And why does it matter so much to them? I don't get that. Unless harm is being done, I don't see a reason to try to sway people out of their beliefs. *shrug*

[Shawn Blackwolf]

My friend David...

Please do me , if not all of us on MW a favor...

Stop assuming , and continually saying the negative
experiences with Christians must be in the Bible Belt...

For one...we both know you do not live in the U.S. ,
secondly , as I do , all my negative experiences , from
when I was a child to now , happened in New York ,
Arizona , California , and Oregon...

Nowhere near the Bible Belt...

And I am far from the only one...

I can gather 100 people together , in my area...any of
the areas I have lived in...and at least 10 of them , will
speak of negative experiences with Christians...

( if that is what is being discussed )

I have had positive experiences...some great conversations...

And have some very good friends who are "true" Christians ,
not "espousers"...

I have had many more negative experiences , and have my
reasons for disliking the religion , in general...

And many who proclaim it...

It is far from a few "bad apples" , in the bunch...:uhhuhuh:

I have no need , nor desire for therapy , concerning
my feelings...they stem from personal experience...

And I do find that slightly insulting...( if not more so )...

So...until you live in the states...travel across the states ,
as some of us have...please refrain from your continued
insistence this "negative" type of Christianity , exists
mainly , or solely , in the Bible Belt...

And I myself...after hitching , taking buses , walking ,
for over 35 years , and interacting with people during
that time...have definitely "paid my dues" , and have
many personal experiences with this...

I hitched back and forth , across the country , for years...

Everyone has different experiences...I am glad you have
had yours , and feel the way you do...

I have had different...as some others , who have spoken
on this thread...and our experiences , and feelings , are
just as valid...

I don't need healing...I need them to live their lives ,
and stay out of mine , unless they are willing to meet
me on terms conducive to mutual acceptance...:thumbsup:

( No insult , or disrespect , to my Christian friends on MW )





That was probably in the Bible Belt, and, I think, those Christians need to change (actually, from my lurkings on Christian sites and forums, it seems some Christians, even Evangelical ones, have stated that as well).

[Cunae]

My friend David...

Please do me , if not all of us on MW a favor...

Stop assuming , and continually saying the negative
experiences with Christians must be in the Bible Belt...

For one...we both know you do not live in the U.S. ,
secondly , as I do , all my negative experiences , from
when I was a child to now , happened in New York ,
Arizona , California , and Oregon...

Nowhere near the Bible Belt...

And I am far from the only one...

I can gather 100 people together , in my area...any of
the areas I have lived in...and at least 10 of them , will
speak of negative experiences with Christians...

( if that is what is being discussed )

I have had positive experiences...some great conversations...

And have some very good friends who are "true" Christians ,
not "espousers"...

I have had many more negative experiences , and have my
reasons for disliking the religion , in general...

And many who proclaim it...

It is far from a few "bad apples" , in the bunch...:uhhuhuh:

I have no need , nor desire for therapy , concerning
my feelings...they stem from personal experience...

And I do find that slightly insulting...( if not more so )...

So...until you live in the states...travel across the states ,
as some of us have...please refrain from your continued
insistence this "negative" type of Christianity , exists
mainly , or solely , in the Bible Belt...

And I myself...after hitching , taking buses , walking ,
for over 35 years , and interacting with people during
that time...have definitely "paid my dues" , and have
many personal experiences with this...

I hitched back and forth , across the country , for years...

Everyone has different experiences...I am glad you have
had yours , and feel the way you do...

I have had different...as some others , who have spoken
on this thread...and our experiences , and feelings , are
just as valid...

I don't need healing...I need them to live their lives ,
and stay out of mine , unless they are willing to meet
me on terms conducive to mutual acceptance...:thumbsup:

( No insult , or disrespect , to my Christian friends on MW )





That was probably in the Bible Belt, and, I think, those Christians need to change (actually, from my lurkings on Christian sites and forums, it seems some Christians, even Evangelical ones, have stated that as well).

Good post, friend! :smile:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Thank you , Mystic Christian...:thumbsup:


Good post, friend! :smile:

[LacyRoze]

My friend David...

Please do me , if not all of us on MW a favor...

Stop assuming , and continually saying the negative
experiences with Christians must be in the Bible Belt...

For one...we both know you do not live in the U.S. ,
secondly , as I do , all my negative experiences , from
when I was a child to now , happened in New York ,
Arizona , California , and Oregon...

Nowhere near the Bible Belt...

And I am far from the only one...

I can gather 100 people together , in my area...any of
the areas I have lived in...and at least 10 of them , will
speak of negative experiences with Christians...

( if that is what is being discussed )

I have had positive experiences...some great conversations...

And have some very good friends who are "true" Christians ,
not "espousers"...

I have had many more negative experiences , and have my
reasons for disliking the religion , in general...

And many who proclaim it...

It is far from a few "bad apples" , in the bunch...:uhhuhuh:

I have no need , nor desire for therapy , concerning
my feelings...they stem from personal experience...

And I do find that slightly insulting...( if not more so )...

So...until you live in the states...travel across the states ,
as some of us have...please refrain from your continued
insistence this "negative" type of Christianity , exists
mainly , or solely , in the Bible Belt...

And I myself...after hitching , taking buses , walking ,
for over 35 years , and interacting with people during
that time...have definitely "paid my dues" , and have
many personal experiences with this...

I hitched back and forth , across the country , for years...

Everyone has different experiences...I am glad you have
had yours , and feel the way you do...

I have had different...as some others , who have spoken
on this thread...and our experiences , and feelings , are
just as valid...

I don't need healing...I need them to live their lives ,
and stay out of mine , unless they are willing to meet
me on terms conducive to mutual acceptance...:thumbsup:

( No insult , or disrespect , to my Christian friends on MW )



Excellent post!! :thumbsup:

[lightdragon]

That was probably in the Bible Belt, and, I think, those Christians need to change (actually, from my lurkings on Christian sites and forums, it seems some Christians, even Evangelical ones, have stated that as well). I hope you do find some cool Pagans to hang out with, though :).

I live in New York City. There is just as much fanatical beliefs here in the northeast as in other parts of the US. Fortunately the more dangerous ones will reguard pagans as either idiots, sickos or naive individuals. and to be truthfully some of them are idiots and/or sickos. so they leave them alone.
The main bulk of their attacks are towards Jews ,Muslims , other Christian groups and to an extent New Agers as these groups are more common. and there is no central network. in fact some of the more open covens left Queens. These range in general harassment, possible job loss, a family member injured , raped or killed. and to rare extents a cross burning or other racially motivated attacks. and yes there are cross burnings in the northern areas of the U.S. and they are not only in the South. So in my area not only the police detectives are busy but the Feds as well. in fact a few years ago the feds busted two store owners who were fronts for money laundrying for Al Qaeda as well as chapters for the KKK. Now granted you don't hear of someone being beaten shot or killed everyday for a bias attack because of the person being pagan. One person in long island ,NY was fired from her job because she was suspected of being a witch. and that is one example. more violent stuff so far i never heard of but there is a possiblity that some people here could provide some examples.

To be honest with you. I had less problems with the Evangelicals and other fundies now that i am Pagan than before.


My friend David...

Please do me , if not all of us on MW a favor...

Stop assuming , and continually saying the negative
experiences with Christians must be in the Bible Belt...

For one...we both know you do not live in the U.S. ,
secondly , as I do , all my negative experiences , from
when I was a child to now , happened in New York ,
Arizona , California , and Oregon...

Nowhere near the Bible Belt...

And I am far from the only one...

I can gather 100 people together , in my area...any of
the areas I have lived in...and at least 10 of them , will
speak of negative experiences with Christians...

( if that is what is being discussed )

I have had positive experiences...some great conversations...

And have some very good friends who are "true" Christians ,
not "espousers"...

I have had many more negative experiences , and have my
reasons for disliking the religion , in general...

And many who proclaim it...

It is far from a few "bad apples" , in the bunch...:uhhuhuh:

I have no need , nor desire for therapy , concerning
my feelings...they stem from personal experience...

And I do find that slightly insulting...( if not more so )...

So...until you live in the states...travel across the states ,
as some of us have...please refrain from your continued
insistence this "negative" type of Christianity , exists
mainly , or solely , in the Bible Belt...

And I myself...after hitching , taking buses , walking ,
for over 35 years , and interacting with people during
that time...have definitely "paid my dues" , and have
many personal experiences with this...

I hitched back and forth , across the country , for years...

Everyone has different experiences...I am glad you have
had yours , and feel the way you do...

I have had different...as some others , who have spoken
on this thread...and our experiences , and feelings , are
just as valid...

I don't need healing...I need them to live their lives ,
and stay out of mine , unless they are willing to meet
me on terms conducive to mutual acceptance...:thumbsup:

( No insult , or disrespect , to my Christian friends on MW )



[

i agree with this statement.