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Bix
April 25th, 2009, 01:09 PM
Okay guys, I thought I'd go ahead and get this started. In the next couple of days lets read Psalms 1-10 and have a discussion about it. I would like each section that we read to stay up for a week to give everyone a chance to comment before going on to the next section. While you're reading, make mental notes about what seems interesting, strange, thought-provoking, etc. and post them here for discussion. After that, we'll just see where this leads. Thanks, guys!

Bix
April 28th, 2009, 09:13 PM
Just a discussion starter: throughout the Psalms mentioned, there is evidence of God pushing away the psalmists "enemies." Psalm 1 especially speaks of staying away from wicked people and sinner.

What is everyone's thoughts on this? Does your particular path speak of people being "wicked"? How are you taught to respond to these people.?

Lahmi
April 28th, 2009, 11:47 PM
Just a discussion starter: throughout the Psalms mentioned, there is evidence of God pushing away the psalmists "enemies." Psalm 1 especially speaks of staying away from wicked people and sinner.

What is everyone's thoughts on this? Does your particular path speak of people being "wicked"? How are you taught to respond to these people.?

hmmm
Lets look at Psalm 1 for a moment.

Psalm 1

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Looking at this Psalm, what I see is an admonition for the followers
of God to follow His way, rather than the ways of those who do not
follow Him.
Also, it seems that God does not want those who do ungodly things
to be put in charge of His things.
So I don't see it as being so much ~stay away from the wicked~
as it is ~don't do as they do, follow God instead~

mark

Lahmi
April 29th, 2009, 12:02 AM
I'm seriously strapped for time right now, so will come back and
post about a couple more later in the week. Probably not all ten though. :)

Cunae
April 29th, 2009, 09:37 AM
I need a little more time to make a meaningful response, too. Good start, though!

BearDancing
April 30th, 2009, 01:50 AM
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

I hear that man who does not choose to associate with the ungodly, or with sinners, or be scornfull....these are the men *who are Blessed*
Blessed meaning in a relationship with God...ungodly meaning *not in relationship with God*

2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Meditation has the potential to bring us closer to the LORD, day or night

3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
When we trust the flow of spirit within us and follow his guidance we are fruitful in our life, All trees, rivers, plants *just* trust and allow spirit to flow through them...thus allowing the LORDS gifts of life to blossom...they are just a tree, they are not trying to be a peanut, they are *just* trusting Spirit to flow freely and Wow they are a mighty tree just for trusting

4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
I beilve that *ungodly* are those that do not have a connection to God...throught Jesus our savior...and basically if you are not connected you are not allowing the flow of Love to move through you and you are just * dust in the wind* wondering aimlessly...and most people do not even know....

5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

I am not sure on this one.... the people who are not connected to God and on a learning path towards enllightenment, their judgment of us is of no importance....The Lord is our only shepard


6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish. The Lord and Only The Lord is our Shepard, and we take our guidance only from Him....those who do not have a connection with Spirit will wither and die from lack of love and nourishment..as Love and Nourisment can only be recieved by God through Jesus Christ our Savior

that is my story and I am sticking to it...naw...I am here to learn and grow by us all sharing our own understanding of truth

Lahmi
May 1st, 2009, 09:40 PM
Looking at this Psalm, what I see is an admonition for the followers
of God to follow His way, rather than the ways of those who do not
follow Him.
Also, it seems that God does not want those who do ungodly things
to be put in charge of His things.
So I don't see it as being so much ~stay away from the wicked~
as it is ~don't do as they do, follow God instead~

markThe principle of following God while in the presence of
those who don't is reiterated elsewhere, like here in the Gospel of
Matthew chapter 9.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=9&version=9

9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus' viewpoint on the subject is pointed out in many places as
He routinely gave us an example to follow in showing love and
kindness to those who did not follow God's path, while staying
true to His way at the same time.
There are also various passages about christians being a light
to the rest of the world.

Lahmi
May 1st, 2009, 09:43 PM
In Psalm 8, I see our charge as given there to be stewards of the
earth. God has given that responsibility to mankind. we've messed
it up, naturally, but there it is in black and white.
Fortunately, some christians are starting to understand that part
of the Psalm as well. It goes along nicely with the part about God
being mindful of us. :)

Bix
May 2nd, 2009, 10:36 AM
See, in the Psalms we are reading, I get the impression more that God's people -should- stay away from the wicked and ungodly people. The Gospel of Matthew seem to be the opposite of this in that Jesus is going and fraternizing with sinners and supposedly ungodly people.

zombi
May 2nd, 2009, 03:11 PM
I need some time to formulate my thoughts but rest assured -- I will be back!!

LostSheep
May 2nd, 2009, 03:36 PM
See, in the Psalms we are reading, I get the impression more that God's people -should- stay away from the wicked and ungodly people. The Gospel of Matthew seem to be the opposite of this in that Jesus is going and fraternizing with sinners and supposedly ungodly people.

Hello :wave: . I'm not sure there's much I can contribute to this, as this isn't one of the areas I'm most familiar with, but I do think this is an interesting illustration of the way that the intention of the different writers and the way that God was seen changed over time between the Old and New Testament. How the God of the OT was the Chosen People's own God, how He looked after them, and how Jesus changed that outlook, and, as he saw, God (in whatever way he may have thought of Him) was inclusive of all.

Just an observation, at least.

Lahmi
May 2nd, 2009, 04:21 PM
See, in the Psalms we are reading, I get the impression more that God's people -should- stay away from the wicked and ungodly people. The Gospel of Matthew seem to be the opposite of this in that Jesus is going and fraternizing with sinners and supposedly ungodly people.
and yet, that's not what I'm reading here, Bix.
What I am seeing is that God's people should stay away from
behaving wickedly and in ungodly ways.
:)

Bix
May 2nd, 2009, 10:38 PM
Well I guess that then begs the question of what makes a person wicked and ungodly?

Agaliha
May 3rd, 2009, 03:56 PM
I'll come back later and post my comments :)

Though, just to get some other questions in the mix--
What Psalm (of these 10) is your favorite or that you connect with the most? Why?
What Psalm don't you like or connect with? Why?


(and should a thread for the next 10 be posted soon? Or 15, at way the famous Psalm 23 is in there :lol:)

Bix
May 3rd, 2009, 06:32 PM
I thought I'd let the discussion trickle on a bit more before going to the next 10 Psalms.

I'll have an answer to your questions later.

Cunae
May 5th, 2009, 07:17 PM
and yet, that's not what I'm reading here, Bix.
What I am seeing is that God's people should stay away from
behaving wickedly and in ungodly ways.
:)

Walking in a particular way is a traditional metaphor for pursuing a set of moral choices in life, so I agree, but then the writer turns the idea into an elegant narrative on the sequence in the triadic sense: first walking, then standing, and finally sitting with the wicked--by which a close companionship, perhaps a kind of intimacy, is implied.

Who are the wicked? Those who lie, cheat, steal, abuse, deny, seduce, etc. Whatever is intended to hurt another human being physically, mentally, spiritually. Something like that.

Cunae
May 5th, 2009, 07:52 PM
Psalm 8:4 is one of my favorites "Who is man that You are mindful of him?" but how about verse 5? What do you make of the "heavenly beings"? Angels? Others? This harkens back to Genesis 1:26 "Then God said 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule..."

So who are they?

Bix
May 5th, 2009, 10:29 PM
The Bible mentioned evidence of angels. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, aren't the communion of saints also supposed to be heavenly beings?

I'm really not sure if I believe in angels or not...so right now they're just nicely poetic pieces for me. :P

Darth Brooks
May 6th, 2009, 05:20 PM
This is the version of Psalm 1 that I have in my copy of the Tanakh. There are some minor differences in translation:


1 Happy is the man who has not followed the counsel of the wicked,
or taken the path of sinners,
or joined the company of the insolent;
2 Rather, the teaching of the LORD is his delight,
and he studies that teaching day and night.
3 He is like a tree planted beside streams of water,
which yields its fruits in season,
whose foliage never fades,
and whatever it produces thrives.

4 Not so the wicked;
rather, they are like chaff that wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not survive judgment,
nor will sinners, in the assembly of the righteous.
6 For the LORD cherishes the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked is doomed.The meaning of the psalm, according to the translations which are available to me, seems pretty clear-cut. It is not unusual for the followers of a specific religious teaching to be compared to trees or some other kind of plant life, which is said to be nourished by the religious teaching to the point of growing strong, being replenished in times of need, and bearing bountiful fruits. It is also not unusual for those who go against said religious teaching to be compared with symbols of infertility, or some other failed attempt at growth. This hearkens back to what I remember of Jesus saying "By their fruits ye shall know them." Those who bear healthy "fruits" follow the right path, while those who do not are in error. I think the psalm is essentially saying that if we follow the teachings of the Lord, we will be fruitful; if we do not, we will be desolate. Of course, "the teachings of the Lord" may mean different things depending on who is speaking.


What is everyone's thoughts on this? Does your particular path speak of people being "wicked"? How are you taught to respond to these people.?

Since there are no standard definitions for words like "goodness" or "wickedness" in Setianity, I can't really answer the above question in those terms. I can only speak for myself as an individual Setian. Two things are most good in my system of belief: the Secret of the Two Partners, and khepher. A person who recognizes or is otherwise sensitive to the Secret will do their best to reconcile with those who are different from themselves, rather than persecute them for being different. And a person who khephers continually changes and evolves according to their higher Will, which in my case at least is identified with the Will of Set. A person who is knowledgeable in the ways of khepher does not restrict themselves to living and/or thinking in any specific way forever, because they know that reality is always changing and they must adapt with those changes to survive. This is a bit similar to Thomas Paine's statement in The Age of Reason that a man who refuses to accept another man's right to his opinion is not only infringing upon the other man's freedom, but upon his own as well, for he is in fact chaining himself to his own opinion and not allowing himself the freedom to change his mind if necessary.

To turn it around, what is most "wicked" in my view is anything which opposes the Secret and which attempts to prevent khepher. For instance, a Jihadist goes against the Secret because they believe they must kill the Christians or the Americans or whomever, because it is "Allah's will." The same would be equally true of anyone else who wishes to destroy whomever is not like themselves. As for the second part, a person who worked to prevent the Civil Rights Movement would have been going against khepher, for they would have been attempting to prevent American blacks from having the same freedoms and opportunities to grow as American whites. Yet this second example can also be taken as going against the Secret as well, since the root of the problem was a prejudice against the other - in this case, American blacks.

So in short, the people I consider most wicked are those who persecute and try to destroy those who are different from themselves, and who either work to resist their own growth, or to prevent other people from growing. I am guessing this is probably quite different from what the Psalmist had in mind, but I nevertheless agree that wicked people (by my definition) are heading toward a destruction of their own making, while those who are good (by my definition) will survive longer. Though it is true that even the most fruitful tree must eventually disintegrate back into the earth, and a good person will be humbled by this, IMO, and not be quick to judge others, for he or she will realize that we are all equal before the powers of death and decay.


Well I guess that then begs the question of what makes a person wicked and ungodly?

My translation doesn't use the word "ungodly" in this case. I don't really see "ungodly" as being synonymous with "wicked," because I think it is possible to be a good person without worshiping any god. This too would most likely be inconsistent with what the Psalmist had in mind.

Bix
May 8th, 2009, 12:57 PM
Darth, in your path, what determines what khepher is? Is it an outside force of pushing people to do what's right? I've never heard of khepher and I know next to nothing about Setians. Could you expound more on that?

BearDancing
May 8th, 2009, 04:31 PM
Okay...you said there are no stupid questions..:hairred:

I do not understand psalms 2.4 to the end...why is there so much harshness and ridicule...The enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. Then he rebuckes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,.....
is it just the *humanness of David* that is writing this and making God sound so.......not loving kind and gentle????
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
I understand the underlying message, yet I *rolls eyes* at the wording and making the Lord sound so harsh...What I beleive is that people who are *not in relationship with God* uses language like rule them with an iron scepter you will dash them to pieces like pottery.
I have been walking/learning with God for 20 yrs. and yes I have never read the bible...Yet I have never felt anything but Love and Understanding and Patience from Jesus or God?????
I really am puzzled and confused that David would see/write about our Lord this way

Bix
May 8th, 2009, 05:13 PM
FS, I've also had issues with passage like the one you described. I'm still trying to think them out. From reading the first part of the Psalm, David mentioned that the nations God spurned Him and the kingdom David who was God's chosen kingdom. God apparently didn't like that and was angry towards them.

Cunae
May 8th, 2009, 05:26 PM
Okay...you said there are no stupid questions..:hairred:

I do not understand psalms 2.4 to the end...why is there so much harshness and ridicule...The enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. Then he rebuckes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,.....
is it just the *humanness of David* that is writing this and making God sound so.......not loving kind and gentle????
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
I understand the underlying message, yet I *rolls eyes* at the wording and making the Lord sound so harsh...What I beleive is that people who are *not in relationship with God* uses language like rule them with an iron scepter you will dash them to pieces like pottery.
I have been walking/learning with God for 20 yrs. and yes I have never read the bible...Yet I have never felt anything but Love and Understanding and Patience from Jesus or God?????
I really am puzzled and confused that David would see/write about our Lord this way



Although we don't know the historical situation the Psalm is responding to, it's likely it's referring to an alliance of nations intending to attack Judea or merely an intention to rebel against a condition of subjugation to someone. It might be something local or a grand confrontation; in either case, the author sees Zion (though a modest mountain-top town) as God's chosen city surrounded by threatening empires.

This Psalm seems more boldly political than theological, a fierce belief that God will use His power to pulverize Judea's enemies. It reminds these enemies to keep in mind God's overwhelming power, which is a guarantee of Zion's victory over her foes.

In other words, I think the author is as scared shitless as anybody in that situation would be, but is praising God for His might over all threatening forces. A calling to arms, really. Wouldn't you want that kind of power on your side?

That's my take, anyway! Good questions, 'Spirit!

BearDancing
May 8th, 2009, 05:50 PM
that makes sense to me...that the harshness is to maybe wake up or scare the enemies...I guess meek mild language is not quite as striking as those that were chosen and wrote...sounds logical, as in most of the next psalms there is much praise and glory and not much of the wrath ...
Psalms 3 is soooo good...It really hits home for me....as the Lord is my only shield...and even when I pray and pray in the depths of despair at time.....and feel that I am so far from God..* that I am not allowing the Lords light to shine through me*
psalms 3.7 puzzles me also
Arise O Lord Deliver me O my God, Strike all my enemies on the jaw break the teeth of the wicked. I have never been physically prosecuted for my beleif so maybe he is saying that because of his dire feeliings to be freed from the chaos/ pain of those who prosecute him...Yet for me when I am in dispare I do not beleive it is someone elses fault.......*whether they be classed as evil or enemies*...... I feel that it is always that somehow I have not listened to Gods direction.......that I have fallen off the path that he has laid out for me...when I do not listen or question the Lords direction *possibly to satisfy my own needs* it is then that I am so desparate and feel consummed with chaos...then it is my job to lift myself back up...realise where I have made a wrong turn and ask God for direction to get me back on the path he has chosen for me....

Darth Brooks
May 8th, 2009, 09:12 PM
Darth, in your path, what determines what khepher is? Is it an outside force of pushing people to do what's right? I've never heard of khepher and I know next to nothing about Setians. Could you expound more on that?


Khepher = "to come into being" in Egyptian; on the internet it is usually spelled "Xeper," which is the Hellenization, but I spell it phonetically to avoid confusion about the pronunciation. (In the Greek the "x" sounds like a "kh.") It is also translated to mean "to become" or "to be transformed." As a noun it is often translated "creation." The plural is khepheru, and in Egyptian belief, all life is a series of khepheru, or processes of coming into being, which is a dual process: it is destructive in that it disrupts the stasis or equilibrium of a previous state of being, but also creative in that it establishes space for new states of being to occur. For instance, when a larva becomes a beetle, the larva "dies" to "beget" the beetle; the larva khephers into a beetle. But at the same time, the larva and the beetle are both khepheru of the same individual organism, the idealized Essence of that being. The same thing is reflected in human life. Any life-altering experience, anything which causes an individual to become, in some ways, a new person, is khepher. In some ways we might even say that we khepher every day, since even the cells of our bodies continually die and regenerate.

In Egyptian hieroglyphs the word is written as a stylized scarab; in fact, khepher ultimately became the Egyptian word for scarab as well (much as the word ba, which means soul, also means "ram," and the word ka, which means the spiritual double of a person, also means "bull"). In Setianity we believe Set is the aspect of Divinity which enabled the original khepher - the First Cause, the Supreme Being's divine moment of self-realization and self-distinction from the primordial Void - to happen in the first place. He is also the part of Divinity which enables khepher to occur again and again, which is why His chaos is often described as "creative destruction." By causing Time to pass and causing all stasis and order to be disrupted, He ensures that life will always move forward into new modes of being, which is how evolution - both biological and spiritual - is made possible.

On an individual level, Setians are devoted to the pursuit of khepher in the sense that we understand things must always change, and that we actively seek change in ourselves most of all, by seeking life-altering experiences. We are always in a state of moving forward; there can be no "This is it." With each new transformation in a person's life, the new mode of existence immediately becomes part of the matrix of the past, and Set, as God of the future, works in opposition toward the past; therefore we are always yearning to "get over the next hill." In other words, we are always working to evolve ourselves beyond whatever we happen to be in the present.

In this view, things like the Protestant Reformation, the Renaissance, the American Revolution, the women's rights movement, the Civil Rights movement, and even the current movement toward same-sex marriage are all manifestations of human khepher on a species-wide scale. It is humanity moving upward from the abyss and toward heaven. This is also called the Ladder of Set, which is simultaneously the Ladder of Horus, since Horus and Set are Secretly One. As mortals we are like Osiris, being continually slain by Set that we might rise again, for only by the ongoing process of death-and-resurrection can we ascend the Ladder. Khepher is inevitable, and immanent in all things. Every snake must shed its skin.

I apologize if this is confusing - I am not always so good at explaining Setian philosophy in ways that make sense, and I realize this probably sounds like a bunch of gobbledy-gook. But this is the main crux of our ontology. For further information, I recommend the following links:

http://www.freewebs.com/setianity/setite/25.html
http://www.xeper.org/pub/lib/lib_xeper.htm
http://www.aztriad.com/kheper.html

Also, my apologies for derailing your thread.

Agaliha
May 8th, 2009, 09:48 PM
I found a commentary/outline of Psalm 1:
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=514

Also here:
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1571
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1570

Might be of interest.

LostSheep
May 9th, 2009, 03:17 AM
Although we don't know the historical situation the Psalm is responding to, it's likely it's referring to an alliance of nations intending to attack Judea or merely an intention to rebel against a condition of subjugation to someone. It might be something local or a grand confrontation; in either case, the author sees Zion (though a modest mountain-top town) as God's chosen city surrounded by threatening empires.

This Psalm seems more boldly political than theological, a fierce belief that God will use His power to pulverize Judea's enemies. It reminds these enemies to keep in mind God's overwhelming power, which is a guarantee of Zion's victory over her foes.

In other words, I think the author is as scared shitless as anybody in that situation would be, but is praising God for His might over all threatening forces. A calling to arms, really. Wouldn't you want that kind of power on your side?

That's my take, anyway! Good questions, 'Spirit!

And I think that's what a lot of people who talk about the "angry, vengeful" God of the Old Testament, don't grasp; that the people of Israel were (as they saw it) His chosen people, and God was on their side, and that a lot of these kind of passages were seen by the people they were written by and for as just the opposite as they are now: they emphasised how much love God had for them, by defeating their enemies. It's more recently, thanks to the way that God was seen (not how He was, but how He was seen) changed thanks to Jesus' teachings, that the God of the OT seems different.

That, at least, is my humble interpretation, and i shall now go back to sitting quietly.

BearDancing
May 9th, 2009, 10:15 AM
I am starting to see a new picture...thanks all for sharing
the links from Agaliha yet another way of interpretting:boing:

Bix
May 9th, 2009, 01:14 PM
And I think that's what a lot of people who talk about the "angry, vengeful" God of the Old Testament, don't grasp; that the people of Israel were (as they saw it) His chosen people, and God was on their side, and that a lot of these kind of passages were seen by the people they were written by and for as just the opposite as they are now: they emphasised how much love God had for them, by defeating their enemies. It's more recently, thanks to the way that God was seen (not how He was, but how He was seen) changed thanks to Jesus' teachings, that the God of the OT seems different.

That, at least, is my humble interpretation, and i shall now go back to sitting quietly.

That's a really good point. The God of the OT was much more tribal and the God of the NT was more universal.

MoonBreath
May 9th, 2009, 01:56 PM
I agree with Mystic Christian and Sheep! :thumbsup: Very interesting discussion and enjoyable read by the way! :)

Darth Brooks
May 9th, 2009, 04:23 PM
And I think that's what a lot of people who talk about the "angry, vengeful" God of the Old Testament, don't grasp; that the people of Israel were (as they saw it) His chosen people, and God was on their side, and that a lot of these kind of passages were seen by the people they were written by and for as just the opposite as they are now: they emphasised how much love God had for them, by defeating their enemies. It's more recently, thanks to the way that God was seen (not how He was, but how He was seen) changed thanks to Jesus' teachings, that the God of the OT seems different.

This is a very excellent point LostSheep. I don't agree with people who dismiss the OT God as "evil" or "malevolent" because I am inclined to think that is more the result of how He was interpreted by whomever was writing whatever part of scripture at whatever point in time, for whatever purpose (or agenda) they might have had. Lots of people are uncomfortable with a book like Leviticus, for instance, and use it as evidence that the blblical God is really quite nasty. IMO, however, it's better to blame ideas like stoning rape victims on the human beings who put such ideas in YHWH's proverbial mouth, rather than YHWH Himself. I also agree the New Testament is intended to help clear that up a bit by presenting YHWH through the person of Jesus. Furthermore, it's not like the pagan deities aren't without their own capricious aspects. Whenever I hear a pagan complain about how "evil" YHWH seems it's hard for me to not point out how folks like Zeus and Ra and Odin were equally "nasty" at times in their own ways.