Beliefs About Hexes

[Penny Dreadful]

Hi there! I'm new to the board, but I've been practicing witchcraft a little over a dozen years now.

I'm interested to know what ya'll think about hexes/curses, negative spells in general. I've noticed on other forums that when someone posts saying something like, "I think I've been hexed" or "How can I tell if someone is sending me negative energy?" their question is often dismissed. In fact, the answer I see most often is, "Hexes can't work unless you believe in them," and it's repeated often enough in similar terms, to the point where it looks to me like a belief that gets handed around often, but not really examined.

It seems a little odd to me: beginning Wiccans in particular are frequently admonished not to engage in "manipulative" magic, e.g. love spells and the like, as they interfere with free will. That implies that others, whether they practice/believe in magic or not, are susceptible to this kind of influence. Why, then, is the concept of hexing so frequently dismissed as not being a serious issue? I've seen this all over the place.

What do you guys think?

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Just something to look over , if you choose...:thumbsup:

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=208896&page=10


Hi there! I'm new to the board, but I've been practicing witchcraft a little over a dozen years now.

I'm interested to know what ya'll think about hexes/curses, negative spells in general. I've noticed on other forums that when someone posts saying something like, "I think I've been hexed" or "How can I tell if someone is sending me negative energy?" their question is often dismissed. In fact, the answer I see most often is, "Hexes can't work unless you believe in them," and it's repeated often enough in similar terms, to the point where it looks to me like a belief that gets handed around often, but not really examined.

It seems a little odd to me: beginning Wiccans in particular are frequently admonished not to engage in "manipulative" magic, e.g. love spells and the like, as they interfere with free will. That implies that others, whether they practice/believe in magic or not, are susceptible to this kind of influence. Why, then, is the concept of hexing so frequently dismissed as not being a serious issue? I've seen this all over the place.

What do you guys think?

[Penny Dreadful]

Ooh, thanks! You know, I did a search and that thread didn't come up!

[Shawn Blackwolf]

My pleasure...:bigredgri

And yes , I know...

I had to go to my subscribed threads , to access it...:uhhuhuh:


Ooh, thanks! You know, I did a search and that thread didn't come up!

[Darth Brooks]

Hello Penny Dreadful! (I really dig that screen name! If you see Varney the Vampyre, tell him I said howdy! :bigredgri)

These other threads do not necessarily center around beliefs about hexes, but they do tie in with that subject a bit, and they may also be helpful to you:

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=214141

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=201862&highlight=light%2Fdark


I'm interested to know what ya'll think about hexes/curses, negative spells in general. I've noticed on other forums that when someone posts saying something like, "I think I've been hexed" or "How can I tell if someone is sending me negative energy?" their question is often dismissed. In fact, the answer I see most often is, "Hexes can't work unless you believe in them," and it's repeated often enough in similar terms, to the point where it looks to me like a belief that gets handed around often, but not really examined.Well, somebody else may disagree with me, and they would have every right to. But in my opinion, that's a load of crap. A hex can work just fine, even on somebody who doesn't believe in them. But in my opinion, hexes only work on people who really deserve them. I do not recognize any "Threefold Law" but I do believe there can be potentially disastrous consequences for the person who throws a hex on somebody who doesn't really deserve it. However, this is just IMO and your mileage may vary.


It seems a little odd to me: beginning Wiccans in particular are frequently admonished not to engage in "manipulative" magic, e.g. love spells and the like, as they interfere with free will.I've always had to wonder about that. I mean, I respect the notion of trying not to interfere with anyone else's destiny in life or whatever. But I have trouble reconciling this with the idea of magic, because when it comes right down to it, any kind of magic is a form of manipulation, no matter if we're talking about hexes or fertility spells. I think to a certain degree, even prayer may be a form of manipulation, albeit in a different way.


That implies that others, whether they practice/believe in magic or not, are susceptible to this kind of influence. Why, then, is the concept of hexing so frequently dismissed as not being a serious issue? I've seen this all over the place.Because it scares people. Yeah I know, seems too simple to be the real answer, but that's my honest opinion at any rate.

[Nesta]

It seems a little odd to me: beginning Wiccans in particular are frequently admonished not to engage in "manipulative" magic, e.g. love spells and the like, as they interfere with free will. That implies that others, whether they practice/believe in magic or not, are susceptible to this kind of influence. Why, then, is the concept of hexing so frequently dismissed as not being a serious issue? I've seen this all over the place.

What do you guys think?

I think it's due to the nature of Paganism. As an umbrella term it covers so many types of concepts that the differences and possibilities are potentially endless.

Wiccans, like every one else, have their own particular views on curses but as you know not everyone has the same opinion. Therefore we all see it in a different light. I have to say I'm uncomfortable of people being 'admonished' in that way. As I'm not Wiccan I don't base any of my believes on the Wiccan path and although I am very interested in other paths I don't regard them in regard to my own path, that just wouldn't make any sense to me. So it may not be that other Pagans don't take cursing as a serious issue, just that they see it from a different perspective. That would sum up how I feel anyway.

I think it's really important for people to discover their own person ethics/morals, whatever you want to call it.

I don't make comments on other people who curse because I don't know anything about their situation. I am a solitary witch so I don't discuss things like that, its just my personal preference.

So maybe curses are too personal. Curses are a strong form of energy use and any situations where they arise may tend to be personal and so people don't want to discuss them in public. I know that many people believe that talking about certain things can diminish or affect the energy in some way.

It's an interesting question!

[Darth Brooks]

So maybe curses are too personal. Curses are a strong form of energy use and any situations where they arise may tend to be personal and so people don't want to discuss them in public. I know that many people believe that talking about certain things can diminish or affect the energy in some way.

That's a good point, Nesta. Hearkens back to that old saying: "Don't tell anybody what you wished for, or it won't come true!"

[MonSno_LeeDra]

My own personal opinion but I think the major issue is that curses / hexes tend to backfire or are unresponsive initially from poor construction.

I was taught they are like a balloon filled with water. If you have them worded correctly, formatted properly then the balloon is solid and ready to be thrown. Yet if you are careless or the construction faulty then the balloon leaks and part of the leakage will spill back on the caster or creator. Part of the content is slipping away and the focus and intent of the curse / hex becomes unstable and splashes onto anything in its pathway. Yes, much of that portion of my practice still goes back to initial teachings from a little Old Italian lady.

There was the second facet of it. When releasing or throwing the curse one also had to have a planned and focused point of delivery. If you tossed it into a spider web then the web by nature captured parts of the energy. Catch any number of webs and the energy and focus is further dissipated. That was where the notion of a personal affect from the person came into play for focus and directing.

I think the developing trend of shake and bake quick results has further eroded the notion. Like I said it takes time and focus to properly construct and those are two items greatly missing in many 100-intro level practices.

Though I suppose some might be better suited for another analogy I heard. Cursing and hexing are like taking a pee without dropping your pants. Some of the content will make it to the toilet but much of it is simply splashed all over the caster. The caster who did not take the time to prepare themselves for what was to be done.

[Meadhbh]

I agree if you do them right they work. But you have to put work into them. Just like any spell hex or not. If you throw it together and and don't focus on it your going to get a lesser result than if you take your time. As for they can't hurt you if you don't believe in them. No offense to any one but I don't buy that line of thinking. Its like if you don't believe the car hit you it still did. And no amount of belief is going to stop it from hurting.

[Nox_Mortus]

Its like if you don't believe the car hit you it still did. And no amount of belief is going to stop it from hurting.


I agree with this to a point, however it should be stated that active disbelief can be a powerful way to counter a curse or hex.

[Morgaine_cla]

Greetings,

At the risk of offending nearly everyone, here is my take on this question...

In every other aspect of daily life, when inquiring about the nature of reality we assess it according to observable causes and effects. For some reason, when it comes to magic we assume it is a matter of opinion. This is unfortunate -- for us all.

In my own observation, people who perform magic in accordance with metaphysical/natural laws, with the blessings of spirits of place, who have disciplined focus, vividly visualize the desired results, improvise around the structure imposed by the Laws*, set a specific time-line for their magic to manifest, and who reinforce their efforts through actions on the physical plane, always achieve powerful results (i.e. their results clearly arise from their efforts, and not as the result of "happy accidents").

This is because the metaphysical/natural laws are universal. They are not "path specific". They are not 'optional'. Whether we like the idea or not, whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, the Laws govern how reality works. They are the basis for all ancient metaphysical and magical philosophies and systems and they are impervious to opinion... So the most powerful practitioners are those who understand the cause-and-effect of the Laws, both singly and in combination (for their effect changes depending upon how they are combined).

Simply because some people fail to produce reliable results does not make getting consistent results unattainable. :hahugh: It simply means that to succeed we may have to buckle down to a more disciplined practice than some people would prefer. Even now, the metaphysical/natural laws of the ancient cultures are being daily proven by "the New Physics". So I would say that hexes work -- when they are performed according to the Laws. :smileroll

So that's my two cents. Nice topic! Thanks for posting!

* I refer here to the laws of metaphysics or natural laws, which were known to all ancient cultures, the Hermetics being but one example.

[Nox_Mortus]

In my own observation, people who perform magic in accordance with metaphysical/natural laws, with the blessings of spirits of place, who have disciplined focus, vividly visualize the desired results, improvise around the structure imposed by the Laws, set a specific time-line for their magic to manifest, and who reinforce their efforts through actions on the physical plane, always achieve powerful results. By powerful, I mean that their results clearly arise from their efforts, and not as the result of "happy accidents".

This is because the metaphysical/natural laws are universal. They are not "path specific". They are not 'optional'. Whether we like the idea or not, whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, the Laws govern how reality works. They are the basis for all ancient metaphysical and magical philosophies and systems and they are impervious to opinion... So the most powerful practitioners are those who understand how the cause-and-effect of the Laws, both singly and in combination (for their effect changes depending upon how they are combined).




I don't know many people that would disagree with that, the problem though, is in defining what those laws are, especially when it comes to occult workings where the results tend to not be readily quantifiable or reproducible.

[Morgaine_cla]

There are many examples of the Laws. The same concepts appear in Huna and Hermetics, for instance. Some cultures express them simply, others break them down into smaller and smaller parts. They look different on the surface, but the core ideas are the same. It's a matter of reaching to the bone to understand the essence of what's being conveyed. Every culture expresses these same concepts somewhat differently. They all work, though, if one truly understands them. My own experience tells me that most of us think we understand them long before we actually do.

I think you can replicate occult workings. If you couldn't, what would be the point of invocation or evocation? You'd never know who was coming. Quantifiable results are also possible. It's a matter of finding the will to apply a method for measuring our success.

Thanks for responding!

[Nox_Mortus]

I think you can replicate occult workings. If you couldn't, what would be the point of invocation or evocation? You'd never know who was coming. Quantifiable results are also possible. It's a matter of finding the will to apply a method for measuring our success.

Thanks for responding!


what I meant was that they are generally not replicable or quantifiable in a way that would convince most people that x laws are correct and y laws aren't, you have a good point about many things being present in most cultures in different forms, the problem still remains of how those things are interpreted and used, and there are varying cotradictory ways of using said "laws" in order to achieve great results.

[Fiamma]

Hi there! I'm new to the board, but I've been practicing witchcraft a little over a dozen years now.

I'm interested to know what ya'll think about hexes/curses, negative spells in general. I've noticed on other forums that when someone posts saying something like, "I think I've been hexed" or "How can I tell if someone is sending me negative energy?" their question is often dismissed. In fact, the answer I see most often is, "Hexes can't work unless you believe in them," and it's repeated often enough in similar terms, to the point where it looks to me like a belief that gets handed around often, but not really examined.

Well, here's my thing...

Regarding the idea that hexes/curses etc can't work if you don't believe in them: I don't believe that, BUT I very much believe that the more you believe in them, the more power you give them, the more they work. So...I might throw a hex at you that is all of strong enough to cause a paper cut or a stubbed toe...but if you don't realize how weak it really is, or you just believe I've generally cursed you, and start feeding beliefs into it, it becomes self-perpetuating even though anything I did to cause it is really long gone. So...stop believing in the curse and break, or strongly diminish its influence.

When it comes to things like ongoing rashes of bad luck, things that go wrong for months or years at a time, anyhting extended like that, I have a hard to believing that it's anything more than a self-perpetuating curse because the attention and focus that it takes to continue to curse someone for months or years at a time, or the knowledge to construct one that lasts that long- most people just don't have that, especially when you consider that most of the peope coming on these forums and claiming to be cursed (at least that I've seen) are teenagers who are just becoming introduced to the world of magic, maybe had their toe in the pool for a year or so, not much more, and are usually being supposedly cursed or hexed by one of their peers, who problably have similar levels of experience.


It seems a little odd to me: beginning Wiccans in particular are frequently admonished not to engage in "manipulative" magic, e.g. love spells and the like, as they interfere with free will.

Well...I'm not a Wiccan, don't follow the rede. I'm also familiar with the fact that the rede is not a law or rule, it's a piece of advice- so there is really no "violating" the rede, there is only advice not taken...and considering the fact that the rede does not address what one should or should not do in the case of action that may cause harm/interfere with free will, I wouldn't even consider it advice given in such a case.

My take on magic is this: Don't employ magical means where you're not willing to do it by non-magical means; if you're willing to use non-magical means, why shouldn't you be willing to use magical means? As far as I see it, ethics are ethics, magical and non-magical actions get treated the same.



That implies that others, whether they practice/believe in magic or not, are susceptible to this kind of influence. Why, then, is the concept of hexing so frequently dismissed as not being a serious issue? I've seen this all over the place.

Good question. I think, for some people at least it's a matter of 1. It's wrong to try even if you don't believe it will work because by trying, the intent is there (I recently read an erm, LOVELY piece of advice once telling people that you should never envision yourself in a situation that you wouldn't want to come true because even thinking about something is like casting a spell and therefore dooming it to happen. So, um, acting, writing, daydreaming, trying to understand other people, problem solving, being prepared for unwanted situations, taking self defense classes...those things and many many others are all out of the question because you have to imagine yourself in situations that may be undesireable and then they'll come true!)

and 2. OMG what if it works!!!? (OMG! I got mugged because I took a self defense class!!!!!one!1eleven)

Yeah. Sorry, hope that wasn't too rambly.

[töbi]

My beliefs on this topic come from my own experiences, so they're not intended to necessarily apply to others. I do not intend what I have to write next to be a blanket statement about the true nature of reality.

In my experience, curses work when the one who is cursed agrees that they are cursed. When the energy of a curse arrives and some part of the target agrees that they should be cursed, and so that energy is permitted entry. In my experience, you cannot be deceived. Ultimately, you are without ignorance. I'm not saying everyone gets what they deserve but I am suggesting that if you try to look at your present situation and take full responsibility for it (whether or not you think you should), you quickly see just how aware you really are of what's going on around you and how much power you really have over your reality.

[watersprite]

Hi there! I'm new to the board, but I've been practicing witchcraft a little over a dozen years now.

I'm interested to know what ya'll think about hexes/curses, negative spells in general. I've noticed on other forums that when someone posts saying something like, "I think I've been hexed" or "How can I tell if someone is sending me negative energy?" their question is often dismissed. In fact, the answer I see most often is, "Hexes can't work unless you believe in them," and it's repeated often enough in similar terms, to the point where it looks to me like a belief that gets handed around often, but not really examined.

It seems a little odd to me: beginning Wiccans in particular are frequently admonished not to engage in "manipulative" magic, e.g. love spells and the like, as they interfere with free will. That implies that others, whether they practice/believe in magic or not, are susceptible to this kind of influence. Why, then, is the concept of hexing so frequently dismissed as not being a serious issue? I've seen this all over the place.

What do you guys think?

I am not Wiccan. Haven't been for a while. Hexes, curses, bindings are real and work with intent, just like sending out positive energy.
Some folks have a healthy fear of the gray shades, and live in denial. They make themselves more vulnerable. They do not protect themselves, and wonder why bad things keep happening.
There is not enough talk about paths and beliefs here. It's pretty superficial and sometimes downright hostile. Which is why there are several people are on my ignore list. :hairred:
Healing, protection, paths and tolerance, or at least tolerance of other people's paths is possible without hostility. It makes for healthy discussion. Flaming and over talking someone just puts out negative energy and helps no one.
Sometimes it is hard to come here.

[Nesta]

Greetings,

At the risk of offending nearly everyone, here is my take on this question...

In every other aspect of daily life, when inquiring about the nature of reality we assess it according to observable causes and effects. For some reason, when it comes to magic we assume it is a matter of opinion. This is unfortunate -- for us all.

In my own observation, people who perform magic in accordance with metaphysical/natural laws, with the blessings of spirits of place, who have disciplined focus, vividly visualize the desired results, improvise around the structure imposed by the Laws*, set a specific time-line for their magic to manifest, and who reinforce their efforts through actions on the physical plane, always achieve powerful results (i.e. their results clearly arise from their efforts, and not as the result of "happy accidents").

This is because the metaphysical/natural laws are universal. They are not "path specific". They are not 'optional'. Whether we like the idea or not, whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, the Laws govern how reality works. They are the basis for all ancient metaphysical and magical philosophies and systems and they are impervious to opinion... So the most powerful practitioners are those who understand the cause-and-effect of the Laws, both singly and in combination (for their effect changes depending upon how they are combined).

Simply because some people fail to produce reliable results does not make getting consistent results unattainable. :hahugh: It simply means that to succeed we may have to buckle down to a more disciplined practice than some people would prefer. Even now, the metaphysical/natural laws of the ancient cultures are being daily proven by "the New Physics". So I would say that hexes work -- when they are performed according to the Laws. :smileroll

So that's my two cents. Nice topic! Thanks for posting!

* I refer here to the laws of metaphysics or natural laws, which were known to all ancient cultures, the Hermetics being but one example.


I don't think your post is offensive in any way, I agree with you. However I would say that although the natural laws are not path specific, our ideas and opinions often are path specific and that's where our differing methods come from. I think this will always be the case because we all have to work out our own ways of working with those natural laws. Some of it works, some doesn't, but we have to learn for ourselves. Who knows what we may discover?

[Lunacie]

Hi there! I'm new to the board, but I've been practicing witchcraft a little over a dozen years now.

I'm interested to know what ya'll think about hexes/curses, negative spells in general. I've noticed on other forums that when someone posts saying something like, "I think I've been hexed" or "How can I tell if someone is sending me negative energy?" their question is often dismissed. In fact, the answer I see most often is, "Hexes can't work unless you believe in them," and it's repeated often enough in similar terms, to the point where it looks to me like a belief that gets handed around often, but not really examined.

It seems a little odd to me: beginning Wiccans in particular are frequently admonished not to engage in "manipulative" magic, e.g. love spells and the like, as they interfere with free will. That implies that others, whether they practice/believe in magic or not, are susceptible to this kind of influence. Why, then, is the concept of hexing so frequently dismissed as not being a serious issue? I've seen this all over the place.

What do you guys think?

I've always been puzzled by the attitude I see from some that disbelief can completely negate a hex or a curse. There was another thread about this subject recently that had some very thoughtful responses - but I don't feel like doing a search right now.

Wicca has a very strong ethical base, and beginners are certainly cautioned to be careful in their workings until they understand the physical laws of cause and effect. Once they understand that their actions will all have some kind of consequence, they can do what they will. I think it's the folks who have picked up Wicca and magic from reading a book or two, or joining an online forum, and they really don't have a solid knowledge base - those are the ones who are most mixed up about how magic works and think they can turn away any negativity just by willing it so.

[Toki Wartooth]

Well, here's my thing...

Regarding the idea that hexes/curses etc can't work if you don't believe in them: I don't believe that, BUT I very much believe that the more you believe in them, the more power you give them, the more they work. So...I might throw a hex at you that is all of strong enough to cause a paper cut or a stubbed toe...but if you don't realize how weak it really is, or you just believe I've generally cursed you, and start feeding beliefs into it, it becomes self-perpetuating even though anything I did to cause it is really long gone. So...stop believing in the curse and break, or strongly diminish its influence.

When it comes to things like ongoing rashes of bad luck, things that go wrong for months or years at a time, anyhting extended like that, I have a hard to believing that it's anything more than a self-perpetuating curse because the attention and focus that it takes to continue to curse someone for months or years at a time, or the knowledge to construct one that lasts that long- most people just don't have that, especially when you consider that most of the peope coming on these forums and claiming to be cursed (at least that I've seen) are teenagers who are just becoming introduced to the world of magic, maybe had their toe in the pool for a year or so, not much more, and are usually being supposedly cursed or hexed by one of their peers, who problably have similar levels of experience.



Well...I'm not a Wiccan, don't follow the rede. I'm also familiar with the fact that the rede is not a law or rule, it's a piece of advice- so there is really no "violating" the rede, there is only advice not taken...and considering the fact that the rede does not address what one should or should not do in the case of action that may cause harm/interfere with free will, I wouldn't even consider it advice given in such a case.

My take on magic is this: Don't employ magical means where you're not willing to do it by non-magical means; if you're willing to use non-magical means, why shouldn't you be willing to use magical means? As far as I see it, ethics are ethics, magical and non-magical actions get treated the same.




Good question. I think, for some people at least it's a matter of 1. It's wrong to try even if you don't believe it will work because by trying, the intent is there (I recently read an erm, LOVELY piece of advice once telling people that you should never envision yourself in a situation that you wouldn't want to come true because even thinking about something is like casting a spell and therefore dooming it to happen. So, um, acting, writing, daydreaming, trying to understand other people, problem solving, being prepared for unwanted situations, taking self defense classes...those things and many many others are all out of the question because you have to imagine yourself in situations that may be undesireable and then they'll come true!)

and 2. OMG what if it works!!!? (OMG! I got mugged because I took a self defense class!!!!!one!1eleven)

Yeah. Sorry, hope that wasn't too rambly.

I second Fiamma on ... pretty much all counts.


I'm interested to know what ya'll think about hexes/curses, negative spells in general. I've noticed on other forums that when someone posts saying something like, "I think I've been hexed" or "How can I tell if someone is sending me negative energy?" their question is often dismissed. In fact, the answer I see most often is, "Hexes can't work unless you believe in them," and it's repeated often enough in similar terms, to the point where it looks to me like a belief that gets handed around often, but not really examined.

It seems a little odd to me: beginning Wiccans in particular are frequently admonished not to engage in "manipulative" magic, e.g. love spells and the like, as they interfere with free will. That implies that others, whether they practice/believe in magic or not, are susceptible to this kind of influence. Why, then, is the concept of hexing so frequently dismissed as not being a serious issue? I've seen this all over the place.

What do you guys think?

I'll add this: I've been reading Christopher Penczak's The Witch's Shield, and I've already gotten past the "ways to tell you MIGHT have been hexed/cursed/attacked/whatever," as well as parts describing how many people have a tendency to blame others entirely or blame themselves entirely, how some are too quick to blame non-mundane things, and blah blah. Having mentioned that, I believe such "omg I've been cursed!!" bits aren't taken too seriously because ... well, it's very possible the person hasn't been cursed, and a lot of the time, the person seems to be totally new to the whole realm and/or an attention-seeker. It would do everyone well to do plenty of studying and self-knowing before pointing at things like curses to explain misfortunes.

I don't believe that disbelief makes you immune from any form of psychic attack, but this is my opinion and from my personal experience. Others may (and do) disagree. (But, as Fiamma put it, people's belief that they're cursed -- if they are -- can help empower it. Or, even if they do believe it, when they're not, can create something negative for themselves out of the fear or stress.)

Beginning anyone, IMHO, shouldn't try doing those sorts of things. And, ironically (because of my age *points to top right corner*), I tend to think that young people should be advised against it. Both groups -- which can easily overlap -- must do a good share of studying, and I don't even necessarily mean "textbook" studies either. One must have a good grip on knowledge of the self, as well as knowledge of situations and the people they deal with on a day-to-day basis. If people don't know -- with a true knowledge, not clouded by things like self-defense mechanisms (e.g. rationalization) or emotions -- what's going on, then IMO they can't know when it's "okay" to use things like "negative" magic, or even things like "counter" magic. It may end up not being too fun if the person had misunderstood the entire situation.

On that note, some traditions aren't entirely anti-"love spell" or the like. Having read the Adkins' books on Religio Romana (the ancient Roman religion, which encompasses much), some ancient Romans did do such "love spells." I've no idea of the good or bad consequences that may have results from them, though. Should anyone, Wiccan or not, study enough about various paths, they'll see differing opinions on any sort of work that seems to impede or hurt people's free will.

[watersprite]

I've always been puzzled by the attitude I see from some that disbelief can completely negate a hex or a curse. There was another thread about this subject recently that had some very thoughtful responses - but I don't feel like doing a search right now.

Wicca has a very strong ethical base, and beginners are certainly cautioned to be careful in their workings until they understand the physical laws of cause and effect. Once they understand that their actions will all have some kind of consequence, they can do what they will. I think it's the folks who have picked up Wicca and magic from reading a book or two, or joining an online forum, and they really don't have a solid knowledge base - those are the ones who are most mixed up about how magic works and think they can turn away any negativity just by willing it so.
I have been around for a while now. Studied hard and taken my work seriously. I left Wicca when it became, IMO, a bit dogmatic and preachy for me. Like some evangelistic xtian churches. But that is only one opinion.
Hexes and curses work just as well as blessings do. People throw them at will without thinking of the consequences, just like they do negative and hurtful energies. Even around here, supposedly a predominately "Wiccan" site, knowing their intention is to wound or try and make one feel inferior. It is done regularly, and with malice and forethought.
That is what my answer has to do with the question.

[Lunacie]

I have been around for a while now. Studied hard and taken my work seriously. I left Wicca when it became, IMO, a bit dogmatic and preachy for me. Like some evangelistic xtian churches. But that is only one opinion.
Hexes and curses work just as well as blessings do. People throw them at will without thinking of the consequences, just like they do negative and hurtful energies. Even around here, supposedly a predominately "Wiccan" site, knowing their intention is to wound or try and make one feel inferior. It is done regularly, and with malice and forethought.
That is what my answer has to do with the question.

Sadly some groups and some individuals who follow Wicca are more "fundy", but I don't think they are a majority by any means. Any more than the "fluffies" are a majority. It's just that both of those extremes draw more attention than your run-of-the-mill middle-of-the-road Wiccan.

The understanding of having whatever kind of energy we put out into the world returning to us is something that some of the newer groups and sadly the solitiaries may not fully appreciate the way those who work with a more traditional group have the chance to learn.

By "around here" I'm guessing that you mean Mystic Wicks, but I don't know where you have gotten the idea that this is a predominately Wiccan site, or that the majority of members have anything to do with Wicca. BenG and I (my forum co-host) and often quite busy correcting misinformation about Wicca. But I don't assume any intention or malice unless the poster is quite open about their agenda. I've taken part in a couple of really interesting discussions recently about how some people take so much pride in being "blunt and honest" that they just don't care whether their words are hurtful or intended as put-downs. And if I think that they really are being deliberatly bullying - I usually ask them for clarification, and occasionally use the Report button.

I've looked around and it's hard to find a discussion forum that is better run and has such a great variety of beliefs. It's very rare, in my experience, to see someone here at MW who is actively doing anything like hexes and curses, and those folks usually get themselves banned just as quickly as the prostelytizers who are trying to convert us heathens and aren't interested in an actual discussion.

[Deerwoman]

I'm interested to know what ya'll think about hexes/curses, negative spells in general. I've noticed on other forums that when someone posts saying something like, "I think I've been hexed" or "How can I tell if someone is sending me negative energy?" their question is often dismissed. In fact, the answer I see most often is, "Hexes can't work unless you believe in them," and it's repeated often enough in similar terms, to the point where it looks to me like a belief that gets handed around often, but not really examined.

It seems a little odd to me: beginning Wiccans in particular are frequently admonished not to engage in "manipulative" magic, e.g. love spells and the like, as they interfere with free will. That implies that others, whether they practice/believe in magic or not, are susceptible to this kind of influence. Why, then, is the concept of hexing so frequently dismissed as not being a serious issue? I've seen this all over the place.

What do you guys think?
Some really good answers here, but I'll throw in my 2 cents. I think it is mainly because North American culture today likes to sweep everything we deem "bad" or "shameful" under the rug. Society likes to think in terms of black and white, but the world is truely full of shades of grey. It is easier to say "I don't believe in curses so they can't affect me" - then it is to take the proper protective and preventative measures and acknowledge that this could happen to you. Even the kindest of people can be subjected to the evil eye brought on by envy or jealousy. If someone throws a rock at you, it's still going to hit you whether you believe they threw it or not!

There seems to a be a class of witch and pagan who is always in a state of paranoia, worrying that curses are being directed at them from all sides. The best way to allay these fears is to do a simple divination to find out if they are actually cursed or not. If they aren't then that is the end of that, I would get them to take a cleansing bath, but otherwise send them on their way. If by chance they were right and have been cursed, then I would do another divination to find out more about the curse and how to reverse it as different curses must be reversed with different methods. There are many simple ways to protect oneself from "negative energies" and luckily many books on the subject. My favourite related author is Draja Mickaharic, his Spiritual Cleansing: A Handbook for Psychic Protection (http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Cleansing-Handbook-Psychic-Protection/dp/1578632781/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242235966&sr=8-1) is a must have for the professional practitioner and the paranoid.

I do not think you can practice as a witch without a balance of left and right hand magic - as the proverb goes "a witch that cannot curse, cannot cure". A doctor cannot heal an illness without first knowing all about diseases as the witch cannot heal a person cursed or harmed without knowing the maladies which caused it.

[Nesta]

Great post Deerwoman! :thumbsup:

[MankyCat]

One thing I learned, if you throw a ball at someone and it hits them, they will feel it even if they don't believe or know that ball existed. I view workings the same way (whether "negative" and "positive").


Added Note: Also, if you are strong enough, then you don't have to worry about whether or not someone is trying send bad stuffs your way. I focus less on that then being secure in my ability to take whatever is thrown at me if I deem it as necessary.

[Calli]

I agree with this to a point, however it should be stated that active disbelief can be a powerful way to counter a curse or hex.

I think maybe that active disbelief is actually creating a stronger energy that counteracts anything thrown at the person. I hope that made sense. Some people's wills are so strong they don't even realize they are projecting energy.


One thing I learned, if you throw a ball at someone and it hits them, they will feel it even if they don't believe or know that ball existed. I view workings the same way (whether "negative" and "positive").


Added Note: Also, if you are strong enough, then you don't have to worry about whether or not someone is trying send bad stuffs your way. I focus less on that then being secure in my ability to take whatever is thrown at me if I deem it as necessary.

I really agree with this. I have dealt with some curses and negative crap thrown my way, and I don't know "prescribed" ways to counteract them. I just do. I've always felt that staying strong magically is key.

The last time someone sent me some negative energy, she didn't mean to. She was just really, really mad at me, and her emotion attached itself to a PM she sent me. Once I realized why bad things were happening, I sent it back to her, gently, and with the wish that the energy would disappate before it got to her. (It only had about a mile to travel, so hopefully some did.) I wouldn't have done that, if it had been on purpose, by the way, but we all make mistakes, right? I sent it back because, the way I see it, it was her trash, and she needed to deal with her own trash, not dump it on me. Unfortunately, what she got from it isn't something I would wish on anyone, but it was her trash and it originated from her. She's been pagan for lots longer than I have, although she doesn't work magic. Maybe she'll figure it out. ~shrug~ I only teach those who come to me actively seeking. She didn't, and wouldn't, so she'll have to deal with her own stuff herself, I guess.

[MsMollimizz]

If someone believes they're cursed, it doesn't bring a curse on them but brings the negative energies to them and they'll have
a "run of bad luck" do to that.
You get what you put out, that is true.
However I know some who don't believe in the law of three...
Stating if a person TRULY deserves it and you don't feel guilty
then...
If someone jumps in front of me and takes my parking space, they don't deserve cursing; if someone jumps in front of me and hits my car they don't deserve it either. If someone, hits my car and renders it undrivable and LEAVES ! I might consider cursing their car !
If someone beats up on my friend, they don't deserve it, I'll just make a phone call. If they beat up on my friend and I find
out they're coming after me for making that phone call I'd really consider it !
I ordered Dorothy Morrison's Utterly Wicked: Hexes, Curses and Other Unsavory Notions, because I don't intend to be unable to defend myself.
Mainly it sits on my bookshelf as an unconscious message to my
sometimes not-so-nice hubby ! If it makes him think twice than
it's worth the $10 !
Gentle Indigo Light
MsMollimizz

[Toki Wartooth]

The last time someone sent me some negative energy, she didn't mean to. She was just really, really mad at me, and her emotion attached itself to a PM she sent me. Once I realized why bad things were happening, I sent it back to her, gently, and with the wish that the energy would disappate before it got to her. (It only had about a mile to travel, so hopefully some did.) I wouldn't have done that, if it had been on purpose, by the way, but we all make mistakes, right? I sent it back because, the way I see it, it was her trash, and she needed to deal with her own trash, not dump it on me. Unfortunately, what she got from it isn't something I would wish on anyone, but it was her trash and it originated from her. She's been pagan for lots longer than I have, although she doesn't work magic. Maybe she'll figure it out. ~shrug~ I only teach those who come to me actively seeking. She didn't, and wouldn't, so she'll have to deal with her own stuff herself, I guess.

Coincidentally, in The Witch's Shield, Christopher Penczak discusses at least twice a couple of things you mentioned here.

1. He told a story about how one of his friends was accidentally sending him negative energy. He didn't know it for a while but eventually figured it out. He called the friend up, discussed the whole thing, and just that by itself cleared it up. Communication saved the day.

2. He had a friend that went to some sort of pagan, ecological farming thing, and one exercise the students there had to do was use and recite the mantra, "That's not my stuff. That's your stuff, and you need to deal with it."

Both things, I believe, have important lessons people ought to learn, whether specifically in the realm of things like curses or not.

[Calli]

Hmm...... interesting. I'm always glad to know that what I do instinctively concurs with what others have written in books. Thanks for sharing that, Toki. :)

I should clear up one thing about that story. This woman is not a friend of mine. She's actually the only person I truly hate, and I'm trying to work through those feelings. I hate hating someone. It doesn't hurt them in the least. It only hurts me. Even though I hate her, I still didn't feel it gave me the right to do something such as add to the negative energy, so that it slammed her good, or something. I only did what I would do if it was anyone else. For me, it's a matter of practicing my craft responsibly.

[~Belladonna~]

Like any Spell, they work if done properly and the intent, focus and energy is there.

So yes, I believe in Hexes/Curses. I also cast them when the need arises :devil: :brew:

[Cunae]

Curious... is a prayer for a pagan really casting a spell or perhaps a hex, even if it is meant benevolently?

[Nox_Mortus]

Curious... is a prayer for a pagan really casting a spell or perhaps a hex, even if it is meant benevolently?

A prayer isn't really the same thing as a spell but to answer your question it would depend on what exactly you where praying for.

[Calli]

Curious... is a prayer for a pagan really casting a spell or perhaps a hex, even if it is meant benevolently?

I was Christian for 25 years, and know how it feels to be in a state of prayer. The most spiritual thing I ever felt during the early years was in a Foursquare church when everyone was singing. The last 11 of those 25 years was as a Mormon, a religion that gives priesthood blessings, and I know how those feel. When I started doing magic, the feeling was pretty much the same. Energy is energy. You put energy into the Universe by casting, by praying, whatever. Energy doesn't know which religion you follow. It just exists.

So, no, our prayers aren't like your prayers, but your prayers, group singing, blessings, etc. are like our magic. At least that's how it feels to me.

I feel I should say this is my personal experience, and your mileage may vary....

[Nesta]

When I started doing magic, the feeling was pretty much the same. Energy is energy. You put energy into the Universe by casting, by praying, whatever. Energy doesn't know which religion you follow. It just exists.

So, no, our prayers aren't like your prayers, but your prayers, group singing, blessings, etc. are like our magic. At least that's how it feels to me.

I feel I should say this is my personal experience, and your mileage may vary....

I completely agree.
I always think of things in terms of energy rather than prayers/spells etc.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I don't mean to be rude , at all , Mystic Christian...

However , I could swear this same question has been
answered , a number of times , on this site...

And if memory serves me , it was in threads , where
you were an active participant...

However...I could be wrong...:uhhuhuh:

Regardless...I know I have posted this same answer ,
again , and again , on MW...here goes again...

YES...and this is why I do not want ANYONE to pray ,
or do spellwork for me , without my EXPLICIT permission...

Ever !


Curious... is a prayer for a pagan really casting a spell or perhaps a hex, even if it is meant benevolently?

[Terra Mater]

Active disbelief is only powerful against certain types of curses/hexes; namely those that required active belief to bring into being. _wiz_

During the early stages of learning magic, those with fast and fiery tempers can effect a curse/hex accidentally. Those accidental hexes are seldom deflected by disbelief since they are the magical equivalent of a punch in the mouth. What usually happens is that the new witch merely was jealous/angry/hurt and their aura was overlapping that of the person who they were jealous at/angry at/hurt by. Their energy latched on to the other person's and twisted it a bit causing the other person to draw more negativity towards them than was normal.:sfs:

Other curses/hexes that I have seen are usually just ancient poison recipes, thus they only require ingestion. Belief only goes so far against hemlock and nightshade. The same holds true for topical scarring agents (curses that are merely recipes for pepper sprays, etc.) and a whole host of curses that are ancestors of modern chemical agents used in warfare.:uzi:

One who is skilled in such areas can use primal symbols to effect a curse on your subconscious mind, bypassing conscious level beliefs. Smells, tastes, a chosen phrase, all of these can evoke powerful subconscious stressors than can make a person curse themselves. Usually requires someone you know well that you have really pissed off.:atantrum:

As to the question of whether spells and prayers are the same thing; yes they are. Both are methods by which different people connect to the erergy/spirit/divine/pick your term and attempt to affect it. Some people pack more of a punch than others, but no one method is better than any other. :dead:

Then again, my parents met in a mental hospital, maybe they need to up my meds again. :thumbsup:

[Cunae]

I don't mean to be rude , at all , Mystic Christian...

However , I could swear this same question has been
answered , a number of times , on this site...

And if memory serves me , it was in threads , where
you were an active participant...

However...I could be wrong...:uhhuhuh:

Regardless...I know I have posted this same answer ,
again , and again , on MW...here goes again...

YES...and this is why I do not want ANYONE to pray ,
or do spellwork for me , without my EXPLICIT permission...

Ever !

:achillpil

[Nox_Mortus]

Active disbelief is only powerful against certain types of curses/hexes; namely those that required active belief to bring into being. _wiz_



I disagree firmly with this, active disbelief is effectively attempting to will something out of existence, works pretty well against spells if your will is strong enough.

[Fiamma]

I disagree firmly with this, active disbelief is effectively attempting to will something out of existence, works pretty well against spells if your will is strong enough.


Oooooh, that's an interesting thought to add to my whole thing about lessening the power of supposed spells and whatnot on you- actively denying their existence is kinda like a counter-spell.

[Darth Brooks]

Curious... is a prayer for a pagan really casting a spell or perhaps a hex, even if it is meant benevolently?

As far as I'm concerned, prayer is different from magic in that it is a humble petition to Deity for a particular result, whereas magic is working to accomplish a particular result through the force of your own higher Will. However, the line between these two things can become blurred, particularly when the practitioner purposefully identifies their higher Will with the Will of the Deity in question, as I do.

For the record, I must respectfully disagree with Shawn that if someone were to pray for me without my permission, it would automatically qualify as an attack. Actually, I welcome any prayers that anyone might have for me, whether I actually request them or not. I see no reason to worry about prayers that are not benevolent, because if someone were to pray for me to come to Jesus, for example, their prayer would hit a brick wall for two very good reasons:

(1) Set Himself is my shield, and nothing can stand against Him. I can only be drawn to Jesus if it is His will.

(2) I have very good reason to believe there is no conflict between Set and Christ at all - therefore, such a prayer would be redundant at best.

Furthermore, I don't see the harm in Mystic Christian asking this question again, since this is an altogether different discussion and her question is relevant to the topic.

[Fiamma]

Curious... is a prayer for a pagan really casting a spell or perhaps a hex, even if it is meant benevolently?

No. Spellwork and prayers are not synonymous. Prayer is communication with deity/the divine/ancestors/spirits, which can be used along with spellwork but it is not spellwork in and of itself.

For this reason, I don't really give a flying rat's copulating posterior end- Joe Fundie can pray to his god to win my soul all he wants, but you know, I kinda honestly doubt that his god is going to do anything about it. I mean...if I couldn't be Christian after eight years of trying to be- you'd think if winning my soul was really a priority, he'd have snatched it up when I was actively offering it.

Now if Joe Fundie actually started flinging spells at me, I wouldn't be terribly appreciative of that...but I also wouldn't be particularly worried. I am of the belief that for a spell to work on another person, there has to be some sort degree of consent on some level. I do not consent to become Christian, no amount of spellwork is going to change that and if you really want to give it a shot, well...go ahead and try.

My views on stuff like love spells are similar- I really don't believe that a spell can make someone fall in love or appear to fall in love without some degree of exisiting attraction, even if it's on a subconscious level. I think that love spells, for the most part, may serve to make someone a bit more aware of an attraction, maybe a tad more open to the suggestion of acting on it, but in the end, if the desire isn't there, unless the person is so weak-willed that they're practically comatose, I don't believe that any of this can be truly forced to the degree that some people seem to think it can. I don't think that most people have that level of power to focus and maintain such a thing.

I believe that if the spell works, the couple falls in love and down the line there are problems blah blah blah, that very likely, it's because it would have happened anyway. If Susie and George fal in love, get married and a fewyears down the line, he turns out to be a drunken, abusive *!profanity*, I have a REALLY hard time believing that it happened because one day five years ago, Susie lit a candle, threw some flower petals and glitter around whilst writing George's name on lacy pink paper with some bad poetry.

George was probably going to become drunken and abusive even if Susie hadn't cast that spell, whether it was with Susie or not. Maybe that spell served to make George a tad bit more aware of his attraction for Susie. Maybe it made Susie a tad bit more attractive. Maybe it made George a bit more open to the vague attraction that he felt before, but sooner or later real feelings have to take over, whether love grows or as there to begin with, or whatever.

Magic may be a powerful thing, but I think a lot of people overestimate their abilities, underestimate other people and do a whole lot of overreacting.

That whole thing wasn't my most eloquent writing but I hope it makes sense.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Well , this is one of those times we can agree
to disagree , Darth...

As I have posted on this site before , I feel , and
experience , prayer , or spellwork , without my
permission , as interference waves , or static in
my field...which I view as an outright invasion
of my personal space...an attack...:thumbsup:


For the record, I must respectfully disagree with Shawn that if someone were to pray for me without my permission, it would automatically qualify as an attack.

Secondly , as I stated , I was not trying to be rude ,
nor was I rude to Mystic Christian , though I now
return the flavor of chill pill to her , and raise her one...:uhhuhuh:

Yet , after two years on MW , it does get wearying for
many of us , when the same question is asked , and
answered , again and again...so...yes , I said what I
said...I still believe what I said to be true...not rude...



Furthermore, I don't see the harm in Mystic Christian asking this question again, since this is an altogether different discussion and her question is relevant to the topic.

[Calli]

With all due respect, Shawn (and you know that's a great deal from me!) I'm fairly new here and haven't seen the other examples of the question in question. :smile: I couldn't possibly invest the time to read everything that's ever been written on this forum. Personally, I enjoyed the question, being that it was my first time seeing it.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I understand...please also understand...
I am not the first , nor will I be the last ,
to make a comment about this sort of thing
on MW...

I still answer , because I want to make sure
my point is also heard , as it is different...

Yet after years...it does feel like deja vu ,
many times...:smileroll

I know I been HERE before...:bigredgri


With all due respect, Shawn (and you know that's a great deal from me!) I'm fairly new here and haven't seen the other examples of the question in question. :smile: I couldn't possibly invest the time to read everything that's ever been written on this forum. Personally, I enjoyed the question, being that it was my first time seeing it.

[Terra Mater]

I disagree firmly with this, active disbelief is effectively attempting to will something out of existence, works pretty well against spells if your will is strong enough.
Well if you think active disbelief is all you need to counteract a hemlock or nightshade "hex", then more power to ya.

As I mentioned in that post, several ancient "hexes" were just carefully prepared natural poisons. I don't know anyone powerful enough to "will" hemlock or nightshade out of existence after ingesting either one.

Now strong will coupled with an even stronger emetic administered promptly might do the trick, but I highly doubt willpower alone would be enough to counteract the effects.:smileroll

[Nesta]

I think it's natural for topics to come up again as new people join all the time. Like Calli I can't read over all the old posts and I'm enjoying all I read so far. Plus I don't want to be stressing about maybe starting a new thread just incase it's already been discussed. Fresh blood, fresh ideas on old topics. Can't be bad.

[Calli]

I understand...please also understand...
I am not the first , nor will I be the last ,
to make a comment about this sort of thing
on MW...



I believe it's also policy at MW to search for a topic before starting it. So, there's that to consider, too.

[Lunacie]

I believe it's also policy at MW to search for a topic before starting it. So, there's that to consider, too.

Really? I've been here for quite a few years and I don't remember reading that anywhere. Can't find it in the FAQ. :huh:

I think people are free to post new (old) topics as the spirit moves them.

People are also free to ignore threads if it sounds like they're going to rehash old topics.

Or they can share links to old threads if there was something revelant in them to the new thread.

Admins? Correct me if I'm wrong?

[Nox_Mortus]

Well if you think active disbelief is all you need to counteract a hemlock or nightshade "hex", then more power to ya.

As I mentioned in that post, several ancient "hexes" were just carefully prepared natural poisons. I don't know anyone powerful enough to "will" hemlock or nightshade out of existence after ingesting either one.

Now strong will coupled with an even stronger emetic administered promptly might do the trick, but I highly doubt willpower alone would be enough to counteract the effects.:smileroll

When most people talk about hexes that isn't what they mean, I believe the correct term in this case would be "poisoning" which yes, would be dealt with in a very different fashion, using the terms synonymously is an anachronism that in this context serves no other purpose than to confuse the topic.

[Fiamma]

Well if you think active disbelief is all you need to counteract a hemlock or nightshade "hex", then more power to ya.

As I mentioned in that post, several ancient "hexes" were just carefully prepared natural poisons. I don't know anyone powerful enough to "will" hemlock or nightshade out of existence after ingesting either one.

Now strong will coupled with an even stronger emetic administered promptly might do the trick, but I highly doubt willpower alone would be enough to counteract the effects.:smileroll

Um...I kinda don't think that most people these days think of hexes as physically poisoning someone though in that case, no...active disbelief isn't going to save you.

[Cunae]

Well, I was just curious and that's why I asked. Sometimes people ask for "energy" and I can offer my version of that, prayers. It's to a different god, though, so is it appropriate?

That was my concern, not to annoy anyone with my inquiry. Seems like a learned group of people here, hence my post.

[Lunacie]

Well, I was just curious and that's why I asked. Sometimes people ask for "energy" and I can offer my version of that, prayers. It's to a different god, though, so is it appropriate?

That was my concern, not to annoy anyone with my inquiry. Seems like a learned group of people here, hence my post.

I think when people ask for energy they are generally willing to accept energy from any source as long as it's well-meant. Unless they specifiy otherwise, such as saying "No prayers please" then send away.

I generally send energy with the stipulation that if the person truly wants it and can truly use it, then may it be accepted in the spirit in which it was offered. If the person doesn't want my "brand" of energy, or isn't ready for change to happen, then the stipulation is that the energy will return to the universe until a new need is presented.

[Cunae]

I think when people ask for energy they are generally willing to accept energy from any source as long as it's well-meant. Unless they specifiy otherwise, such as saying "No prayers please" then send away.

I generally send energy with the stipulation that if the person truly wants it and can truly use it, then may it be accepted in the spirit in which it was offered. If the person doesn't want my "brand" of energy, or isn't ready for change to happen, then the stipulation is that the energy will return to the universe until a new need is presented.


:thumbsup: Gotcha!

[Shawn Blackwolf]

No need there , Lunacie...

I believe you are right...

And I was not trying at all to insult Mystic Christian...

It just was the third time in a month or two , I answered
the same question in a thread...so , I mentioned it...no big deal...

As I said...Deja Vu...


Really? I've been here for quite a few years and I don't remember reading that anywhere. Can't find it in the FAQ. :huh:

I think people are free to post new (old) topics as the spirit moves them.

People are also free to ignore threads if it sounds like they're going to rehash old topics.

Or they can share links to old threads if there was something revelant in them to the new thread.

Admins? Correct me if I'm wrong?

_____________________________________________________________

Well, I was just curious and that's why I asked. Sometimes people ask for "energy" and I can offer my version of that, prayers. It's to a different god, though, so is it appropriate?

That was my concern, not to annoy anyone with my inquiry. Seems like a learned group of people here, hence my post.

Understood , Mystic Christian...

Sorry if my response offended you...not my real intent...

And now that you phrased the question that way...

If I asked for it...such as in my thread , asking for help
to acquire my house , right now...

I lower my wards , to a degree , and open myself to the
help as sent , from whatever tradition , or God / Goddess ,
Spirit Helpers , etc...

Otherwise , I have both shields , and wards , and servitors ,
in place , to deflect such energy , and / or attack anyone who
does so without my permission...

That is part of why I highly recommend to someone not to do
so , without permission...you never know who does not like
it , or want it , or will retaliate , due to their beliefs...:thumbsup:

[töbi]

I disagree firmly with this, active disbelief is effectively attempting to will something out of existence, works pretty well against spells if your will is strong enough.
You don't even need a strong will to accomplish this, you simply need to have realized the ephemeral nature of causal and conditional phenomena. You need will, yes, but it just needs to be sharp rather than strong. (Though I'm sure strong works, too.)

The moment you agree the curse exists, that it has power, that it affects you - you give it license to worm its way into your patterns of body, speech and mind. You agree to the reality of the curse. This is also why some people believe they're cursed, show all the symptoms of it, but have never actually been cursed by anyone.

[Calli]

Really? I've been here for quite a few years and I don't remember reading that anywhere. Can't find it in the FAQ. :huh:

I think people are free to post new (old) topics as the spirit moves them.

People are also free to ignore threads if it sounds like they're going to rehash old topics.

Or they can share links to old threads if there was something revelant in them to the new thread.

Admins? Correct me if I'm wrong?

I could be wrong. I checked into several forums within a few days, and I could easily be mixed up on the rules.


Well, I was just curious and that's why I asked. Sometimes people ask for "energy" and I can offer my version of that, prayers. It's to a different god, though, so is it appropriate?

That was my concern, not to annoy anyone with my inquiry. Seems like a learned group of people here, hence my post.

I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I think it's extremely appropriate. You are sending love and concern in the way you believe in. I don't want to sound offensive here, but most pagans are used to receiving blessing and whatnot from more than one god. It's the Christians that tend to be offended by that. Oh! That's an overgeneralization, and I don't mean it that way. I need a nap, and can't think how to word what I mean. I hope it came through okay.

[coeur]

I don't want to dispute the question of whether or not hexes exist and whether or not they can be performed, because I have not personally seen this question asked many times--and while, I understand personal experience does not present proof or adequate evidence of any sort, I will say many texts on magic and how magic should be approached acknowledge the possibility of casting effective hexes. Furthermore, if hexes did not exist, there would be no point in warning against them--as a result, I think the popular vote on hexes is: yes, they do exist and can be performed.

Unfortunately, this vote on hexes throws emphasis on their performativity. Most texts deal explicitly with the moral implications of hexes, how to go about performing hexes, and the effect of hexes from the performer's side. As performers and casters of hexes, we have plenty of literature to tell us what to expect, what to believe, and what to do to cast hexes; however, not many websites or books will explicitly tell you about hexes from the receiving end. Some texts will tell the potential hex-ee to ascertain whether or not their bad fortune is due to a hex through divination--but we should all know how vague divination can be. And, of course, everyone has experienced bad fortune as a result of bad luck--not bad magic. People get sick--and it's not always because they are hexed. People get into car accidents--and usually not because they are hexed. People miss the bus, get their toes stepped on, have bad hair days, see their souffles fall, make poor grades, have a bad night of sleep, have bad dreams, etc. And, a lot of the time, it is not because they are hexed. Some people can have continuous bad luck for reasons completely independent of hexing. We have all heard of the sob stories; and certainly, if we consider all the economic tragedies running amuck and attribute all of those to some very vigorous hexing, we'd have a huge portion of hexers in the population.

But we don't. And I think common sense makes the perception bad luck happens very difficult to evade. Common sense also makes snivelers, paranoids, hypochondriacs, whiners, and attention whores difficult to dismiss as well. For example, if someone came up to you and said, "I casted a spell to win the lottery sometime this week but it's been a week and I've won diddly squat--I think someone's hexed me," you would probably think it was all in their heads.

--And this is absolutely unsurprising to me. Magic is, as many members have pointed out and sometimes take great pride in, ancient. But, we live in the modern world--a world of statistics, science, and psychology. There is a huge difference between how we think today and how we used to think. As silly as it sounds, you can find great evidence of this difference through the differing vocabularies (and not just words like 'toaster' and 'television set' but words like 'normal'). Words are the currency through which we think in and the basic currency of socialization; it is how we think of the world and how we orient ourselves around the world. It is not just a means of communication. Just by making the simple statement of 'our vocabulary is radically different' is to essentially say our worldview is different from the worldview of our ancestors.

The result of using an ancient system in the modern world is the question of 'where does this exist and how does it work?' Phil Hine writes on the problem of paradigms in his work, 'Condensed Chaos.' Most people find that they prefer to believe in one paradigm but practically spill over to other paradigms because no one paradigm can ever fully describe and explain how magic works. It seems to me the trouble most of us have is over the psychological-spirit models. Psychology is powerful (unless you don't believe in it at all--but then, that's psychological too huh?): you can paralyze your hand just by having a bad psychological association with your hand, or make yourself feel sick, or follow someone around for weeks, or avoid all things related to the number 7. Advertising companies can get you to buy things by appealing to your psychological needs to be the most styling mother****er in town. Your senses can be tricked into believing any number of things (virtual reality) and the power of mind over matter (which is a basic principle of magic according to some people) seems to be pretty strong.

Yet, there appears to be some kind of external 'reality' as well and this was a reality that the ancients were hyper aware of. The notion of an earth-based religion suggests you would live your life according to the external circumstances that surround you like the seasons and like the elements which create the external world. The ancients believed that the stars dictated everything from personality to physical beauty to the outcome of wars. People who were insane used to be considered 'touched' by God in some countries and many of the insane were not treated with therapy (you can overcome your own illness) but by lopping off part of their brain (still practiced by some) or by singing hymns to turn their uteruses back to their original positions.

The external-internal clash can be exemplified in the way most pagans treat Christianity: your God has no power over me because I don't believe in him. But then, why do we expect our magic to be relevant to anyone--not just people who subscribe to magic? The hex problem is another exemplar of the clash. We know we can perform hexes (and sometimes we are taught that we should not perform them), but what about experiencing a hex? What makes experiencing a hex any different from experiencing bad luck? And the answer is often that, despite the fact that we are practitioners of an ancient tradition, we are members of a modern world and we do not want to be considered 'crazy.' We want to be a legitimate tradition--not just a bunch of neurotic hysterics. This is what people have to risk when they tell people they are suffering from a hex very freely and it's a risk many people don't enjoy taking.

[skilly-nilly]

Curious... is a prayer for a pagan really casting a spell or perhaps a hex, even if it is meant benevolently?

It's an interesting question (even if approched before) but I think that the answer doesn't depend on some inherant quality in prayer or spell-work, but in the individual's personal practices and beliefs.

The individual who's praying or spelling, that is, not the recepiant.

As far as I can see, people who pray all believe that they are addressing Deity. Deity then assists them or not.

People who cast spells variably either believe that they are or are not addressing Deity/ies/Spirit/s/Whatever who then assist or not.

In the case of belief in Spirit, those spell-casters are doing something quite similar to praying. This function of praying/spelling is in accordance with my personal beliefs, and I believe that the 'working' of the spell is in the hands of the Spirit addressed. I believe that the energy of the spell comes through the Addressed Being.

So stopping the spell from working and/or bouncing back the energy sent up to and including agression woulld be a contest of will between the recipiant and the Addressed Being. To use Shawn as an example, his mean wards would be in a battle with Spirit. The real question here is that since Shawn repudiates belief in God/s/dess/desses, can They work on him?

My personal belief is that Spirit only enters through invitation, but that doesn't preclude lightning storms when assulted. Or Deity going back to the sender and giving them the big smack-down for uninvited intervention in the first place.


Then there's the whole other group of people who believe that they work spells through force of personal will in which case it would seem to be aa straight contest of arm-wrestling wills-- strongest gets in no matter what.

In either type of spell-worker, I don't think hexes are 'different' from sending benevolant energy-- either the spell-casting person believes that they work in alliance with an Addressed Being or they don't.

I've never minded when people pray for me, but I have a beef about praying with intent; I think telling God/s/dess/desses what to do is rude.

sorry about the vowels, this computer doesn't have spell-check

[Shawn Blackwolf]

...ROTFLMAO...

You do not quit , do you ?

You always have to find some way to bring
me into your posts , to make a dig at me...

( long history here , folks...:uhhuhuh: )

Just for clarification everyone...sorry I have to
take this off topic temporarily , to correct this
mistatement of my position...

I do not repudiate belief in gods and goddessess...

I do not believe in worshipping them , and , see
them as quantum boundary constraints on the
universe...

Nor are my wards "mean" , they are my guards
of my boundaries , and protectors of my realm...

So to speak...:thumbsup:

Allright , everybody...back to thread topic , shall we ?


To use Shawn as an example, his mean wards would be in a battle with Spirit. The real question here is that since Shawn repudiates belief in God/s/dess/desses, can They work on him?

[~Belladonna~]

Curious... is a prayer for a pagan really casting a spell or perhaps a hex, even if it is meant benevolently?

Here's my reply from another thread addressing this same question.

"Spells are so much more involved IMHO, and I'm not just on about the "props." In a way Spells could be likened to prayer, and they are similar... but totally different at the same time. A prayer is a quick asking whereas a Spell is so much more involved i.e. not only are you asking but you're doing as well. You're not just relying on your God/Goddess, etc. to do the work but you're putting the work in yourself and making it happen with your intent, energy, and will. It's a lot more involved than a prayer IMO."

[~Belladonna~]

Oh yes, and as for those people who say "I don't believe in Hexes/Curses so therefore they won't work on me." I'm sorry but this is laughable. The people who I've heard say this exact thing are mainly Witches and Pagans (of some sort) who believe in Spells and even work Magick themselves. They believe other Spells work but when it comes down to Hexes and Curses "they don't work because they don't believe in them." What?!? :eyebrow: So what makes Hexes and Curses any different from any other kind of Spell? Why do other Spells work but not these? You really can't pick and choose lol. If you believe in the power and energy of Spells, then you believe in the power and energy of Hexes and Curses. It's as simple as that!

I've never understood this one and IMO, it's an oxymoron. Can someone enlighten me, please?

[Calli]

This is scooting away from the topic a bit, but it might help someone understand the difference. To me, prayer is asking deity to do something for you. Spellwork is taking the initiative and doing it yourself. It just occurred to me yesterday that may be the reason all those prayers I made as a Christian didn't get answered. I was asking Jesus to do for me what I should have been doing for myself. I had a maybe 5% success rate with prayer, and a near 100% success rate with magic. I've grown so much as a person since I've taken responsibility for my life, rather than relying on deity! I'm not saying my path is the one for everyone. It definitely is not. I'm just sharing what I have come to think about.

[Calli]

Oh yes, and as for those people who say "I don't believe in Hexes/Curses so therefore they won't work on me." I'm sorry but this is laughable. The people who I've heard say this exact thing are mainly Witches and Pagans (of some sort) who believe in Spells and even work Magick themselves. They believe other Spells work but when it comes down to Hexes and Curses "they don't work because they don't believe in them." What?!? :eyebrow: So what makes Hexes and Curses any different from any other kind of Spell? Why do other Spells work but not these? You really can't pick and choose lol. If you believe in the power and energy of Spells, then you believe in the power and energy of Hexes and Curses. It's as simple as that!

I've never understood this one and IMO, it's an oxymoron. Can someone enlighten me, please?

Certainly not me. The one person I've heard it from is pagan but she doesn't do magic. The negative energy she sent my way, by accident, and I sent back to her hit her just fine. I do think Nox is right, though, that active disbelief can counter a hex. I think it creates its' own force of will and negates the will of the person sending a curse or hex. I'm constantly amazed at what the human will can accomplish!

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Oh yes, and as for those people who say "I don't believe in Hexes/Curses so therefore they won't work on me." I'm sorry but this is laughable.

Why? I'm willing to bet more than a third to half of the people who claim to do them screw them up so bad they would not even been considered a success.

In many ways, I would even be willing to bet that the term is used as a threat so often in the Teen scene and such that the very notion is seen as laughable.

The people who I've heard say this exact thing are mainly Witches and Pagans (of some sort) who believe in Spells and even work Magick themselves.

As such they are also the most likely to have wards and guards built about themselves that they believe will prevent any harmful magics from reaching them. Their belief in their protections being such that they disbelieve the opposite and it's ability to affect / effect them.

As the caster of the curse / hex, I really doubt that the person has taken so much focus and attention upon the act that they have found ways to slip between the boundaries. Instead they just toss the bucket of water in the air and hope for the best.

They believe other Spells work but when it comes down to Hexes and Curses "they don't work because they don't believe in them." What?!? :eyebrow: So what makes Hexes and Curses any different from any other kind of Spell?

Myself I'd say ones ability to focus and actually get it right.

Why do other Spells work but not these? You really can't pick and choose lol. If you believe in the power and energy of Spells, then you believe in the power and energy of Hexes and Curses.

Not true. It's pretty easy to make onesself believe that all that is out there is good and happy. It's like the old childhood notion of closing your eyes and not being seen because you can't see anything.

Granted, after a time we learn that it is not true. But until that time it is real to us as children.

It's as simple as that!

Nothing is ever as simple as that.

I've never understood this one and IMO, it's an oxymoron. Can someone enlighten me, please?

I think the other thing is that it's like a snowball fight. There maybe ten or twenty thrown at you before one actually hits with enough force to register. Until that time you are unscathed and see your defenses as sufficient to protect you. Once hit you rebuild or restructure your defenses and fall right back into the false sense of security until another snowball reaches you. But being safe and sound behind your false walls you do not see the person that is testing your defenses and looking for weakness in them.

[Lunacie]

Here's my reply from another thread addressing this same question.

"Spells are so much more involved IMHO, and I'm not just on about the "props." In a way Spells could be likened to prayer, and they are similar... but totally different at the same time. A prayer is a quick asking whereas a Spell is so much more involved i.e. not only are you asking but you're doing as well. You're not just relying on your God/Goddess, etc. to do the work but you're putting the work in yourself and making it happen with your intent, energy, and will. It's a lot more involved than a prayer IMO."

Maybe a good analogy would be: preparing the ground and planting your own veggies, tending them, and then harvesting them ~ vs ~ going to the store and buying veggies that someone else planted, tended and harvested.

[Terra Mater]

When most people talk about hexes that isn't what they mean, I believe the correct term in this case would be "poisoning" which yes, would be dealt with in a very different fashion, using the terms synonymously is an anachronism that in this context serves no other purpose than to confuse the topic.


Um...I kinda don't think that most people these days think of hexes as physically poisoning someone though in that case, no...active disbelief isn't going to save you.


Oh yes, and as for those people who say "I don't believe in Hexes/Curses so therefore they won't work on me." I'm sorry but this is laughable. The people who I've heard say this exact thing are mainly Witches and Pagans (of some sort) who believe in Spells and even work Magick themselves. They believe other Spells work but when it comes down to Hexes and Curses "they don't work because they don't believe in them." What?!? :eyebrow: So what makes Hexes and Curses any different from any other kind of Spell? Why do other Spells work but not these? You really can't pick and choose lol. If you believe in the power and energy of Spells, then you believe in the power and energy of Hexes and Curses. It's as simple as that!

I've never understood this one and IMO, it's an oxymoron. Can someone enlighten me, please?
I included the first two posts to demonstrate my point.

When it comes to magic, people will quantify it and limit it because they are in many cases afraid of it. When it comes to hexes and curses, people like to believe that they can protect themselves by refusing to believe in it. I call this the Bugblatter theory (based on a line from Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy describing the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal which is so monumentally stupid that it believes that if you cannot see it, it isn't there).

Curses, much like the monster under the bed, might be deflected by a certain level of belief. If nothing else, you do have to believe in your ability to fight something to be able to fight it. If you do not believe in your own ability to hit, you will never throw the punch. However, the point I had been trying to make that my two detractors failed to acknowledge, is that there are many ways in which your disbelief is more of a weakness than a strength.

When I began my advanced studies, my first instructor told the six of us in the class that we should forget everything we had learned about magic up to that point when we were in class. She told us that much of what new students are taught is meant to limit them to safe magics so that they get into less trouble. I found that the hardest thing for my classmates to get over was the idea that disbelief was a shield. I never had to shake it because I never believed in it.

Our very first lessons after that were curses, hexes, and the variety of ways in which you could deal misery to others through magical means and the ways in which you could defend against them. Of course, most of my class believed they were automatically immune because they didn't believe in such things.


(What follows is a paraphrase of our first lesson)
So you think you are safe from curses and hexes just because you don't believe in them.

You tick me off, I decide to hex you. I know you do not believe in hexes so I hex those around you who do. They are so stressed out that they are taking it out on you.
You decide to hex me in retaliation. You think your will alone may not be enough to over ride my belief in the charms I wear to give me some measure of general protection against the more common hexes. So you hex some guy we work with that you know has a short temper, doesn't like my husband, and is the new boss of my department. My charms and will are circumvented because you aren't hitting me directly.
Both are valid applications of hexing that circumvent magical protections, disbelief, and willpower. Unless I also have protections to keep my bosses happy, or unless they know I am a really good worker, then I am gonna feel the effects of that hex in spades, just as you will feel the effects of the hex from your overstressed friends and family unless you have extended magical protections against them, which you won't have done since you don't believe. Whereas, I might just have such protections in place because I do believe.

A hex, does not have to be done directly on a person. I can bedevil you by hexing your grandmother, your boss, your SO, your kid, or your familiar. The most your disbelief is gonna do is make it less likely that I get the opportunity while I am still in the mood.

Also, your disbelief is conditional on you not believing just in curses, you have to believe that I cannot do anything magically. See, if you have ever asked someone for a simple reading, you handed on a platter enough belief to allow them to curse you. You believed enough that they could know something about you which gives them all the power they need to do something ill to you. Ask any professional head peeper, they will agree with that.

So if your only protection is disbelief, you might want to ask yourself two small things.

Have you ever been wrong about anything?
Have you ever pissed anyone off?
If the answer is yes to either question, its time to learn about curses and hexes so you can better protect yourself against them.


Or is it time for my meds again.:deviltail

[Fiamma]

Oh yes, and as for those people who say "I don't believe in Hexes/Curses so therefore they won't work on me." I'm sorry but this is laughable. The people who I've heard say this exact thing are mainly Witches and Pagans (of some sort) who believe in Spells and even work Magick themselves. They believe other Spells work but when it comes down to Hexes and Curses "they don't work because they don't believe in them." What?!? :eyebrow: So what makes Hexes and Curses any different from any other kind of Spell? Why do other Spells work but not these? You really can't pick and choose lol. If you believe in the power and energy of Spells, then you believe in the power and energy of Hexes and Curses. It's as simple as that!

I've never understood this one and IMO, it's an oxymoron. Can someone enlighten me, please?

I have a post earlier in this thread about why I believe that actively disbelieving in a curse or hex can be effective (note though, this doesn't mean that I don't believe in curses/hexes at all)

If you want further explaination of my belief beyond the post I made, feel free to ask.

[Nox_Mortus]

I included the first two posts to demonstrate my point.

When it comes to magic, people will quantify it and limit it because they are in many cases afraid of it. When it comes to hexes and curses, people like to believe that they can protect themselves by refusing to believe in it. I call this the Bugblatter theory (based on a line from Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy describing the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal which is so monumentally stupid that it believes that if you cannot see it, it isn't there).

Curses, much like the monster under the bed, might be deflected by a certain level of belief. If nothing else, you do have to believe in your ability to fight something to be able to fight it. If you do not believe in your own ability to hit, you will never throw the punch. However, the point I had been trying to make that my two detractors failed to acknowledge, is that there are many ways in which your disbelief is more of a weakness than a strength.


and they can.. if they no what they are doing, but it's more complicated that just saying "curses don't exist" I even said that. Please don't misrepresent my statements like that again, also it seems like your're foprcing my statements into fitting your anachronistic definition of the word hex, which is flat out intellectual dishonesty.

[Terra Mater]

and they can.. if they no what they are doing, but it's more complicated that just saying "curses don't exist" I even said that. Please don't misrepresent my statements like that again, also it seems like your're foprcing my statements into fitting your anachronistic definition of the word hex, which is flat out intellectual dishonesty.
Woah there Nox. Have a cup of tea and a smile already.:thumbsup: You totally misread my intentions and I see no need to dominate the topic with a sidebar of just how silly a misunderstanding this is.

If you really feel the need to talk to me directly about this, drop me a PM. These folks do not need us hijacking the thread for a spitting match.:toofless:

[PhoenixRevival]

I use to be one who believe "I dont believe you can hex me" but that was when i had a very singular look on things. Now I know that kind of power is out there and people do use it... so the leason i learn is... be wary, be ready... and there's a third step, but it belongs on MWDark.

[~Nixie]

..........