And in it harm none...

[qidrogreevat]

One thing I've noticed on this board, is the fact that pretty much everyone has a vendetta against harming others with their magical workings. This isn't aimed at Wiccans, who are bound by their religion to try and harm as little as possible, but some people who aren't Wiccan are taking it as though they are.

I, personally, have no problem whatsoever with harming people, if they get in my way. I see it as my right as a magic wielder to be able to do this. I put in the study I get the results. Now, I'm not saying I'm going around cursing people left and right, but if some guy cuts in front of me, I'm gonna give him some hell to pay. Not much, but at least some.

I was wondering why everyone tries their best not to harm others, when they are 'inferior' of a sort. If magic can get me the position of President, then by golly, I'm gonna use it, no matter what the consequences. And if magic can end world hunger and sadness, then by golly I'm going to use it. Harming is the flip side of the magical coin, and both sides are equal.

Just want to see other people's opinions on this.

[Tammy Sullivan]

Just to throw in my 2¢

I find very little that is actually worth bringing about harm to myself via harming others. If some guy cuts me off, I usually just think that they are a jerk, but don't bother myself enough with people of that sort to use any type of energy against them.


I was wondering why everyone tries their best not to harm others, when they are 'inferior' of a sort.
I don't think I understand what you mean here, do you mean that others who do not use magic are inferior? I find that to be a ridiculous statement, as I would hardly think of, the Dali Llama for example, or mother Teresa to be inferior to anyone.

And if magic can end world hunger and sadness, then by golly I'm going to use it. This I agree with, but where is the harm?

, personally, have no problem whatsoever with harming people, if they get in my way. I see it as my right as a magic wielder to be able to do this.I don't see it that way, I consider magic to be a responsibility and a gift, not a power trip.

[MidnightSun]

I'll have to agree with Greta on this one...why waste your energy on pointless stuff like giving a guy hell for cutting you off? I mean, seriously. I 100% with her statement that magic is a gift and not a power trip.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by MidnightSun
..............magic is a gift and not a power trip.

I LOVE that statement, can I put it in my signature?

qidrogreevat, there are some members who share your views, I've seen this discussed in several threads in the time I've been here. "I want that star, and I want it now, I want it all and I don't care how......" (Metallica, King Nothing)

I also honor the rule of three and I do believe that what I send out will come back to bite me in the butt if it's negative energy. I'm also not competitive by nature, never have been........maybe I'd be more successful if I were. Life, maturity and growth on my path have taught me that when I don't get something I want, it's usually for a good reason - because it just wasn't the best thing for me and that the deities usually had something better in mind. I didn't think that way twenty years ago.

[Valnorran]

Well, as far as my own life and experiences go, I compare it to my study of the martial arts. I got into fights all the time before I began the study. I haven't gotten into a fight since I began the study. On the surface, it teaches you how to disassemble someone. However, if you have a decent teacher and are not mentally/emotionally/morally deficient, it will teach you something far more valuable and seriously lacking in this world: self-control. I've also got a concealed weapons permit. On those occasions when I do carry, the presence of a gun under my jacket causes me to act with a greater degree of caution, prudence, and descretion than I normally do (and I'm normally a pretty cautious guy). Now, if I'm backed into a corner with no way out, or my loved ones are threatened with imminent harm, that's another matter entirely, but the ingrained caution and prudence will go a long way towards avoiding threatening situations in the first place. Just because I have the ability to beat/hack/shoot someone up doesn't mean I should whenever someone ticks me off. Being the bearer of such knowledge places the burden of responsible behavior on me. There are times when that annoys me, but the fact remains. I must comport myself with superior conduct. Does the same standard not apply to the magickal practicioner? How do you know the guy who cuts you off doesn't have some emergency to deal with? Just because someone acts like a jerk doesn't mean he is one. There can be factors you are unaware of that totally change things. I think you'd do better with a spell that will return an antagonist's negative energy back to him. That way, any harm inflicted on him is by his own hand and you don't have to worry about unknown variables. It's all on him. You can, of course, defend yourself from actual attack, but to go around zapping people because they irritate you is patently immature. There is also a practical reason why you shouldn't do it, just as there is a practical reason why martial artists shouldn't go around beating everyone up. No matter how skilled you are, sooner or later you're going to come up against someone who's better.

[Radocs]

I don't hurt people because I don't think it's the right thing to do. I am morally opposed to hurting anything unless it's in defense of myself or someone else... I guess it's a question of values.

In a few months I too will have my concealed carry permit, and I already carry knives on me pretty much at all times. I've never had to use either my gun or my knives to hurt anyone, and as I stated before, I never will unless my life or a loved one's life is in danger.

edited becuse i cn't tipe

[Sovaan]

qidrogreevat brings up an interesting point. Historically speaking, a witch's power to heal was also the power to harm, the power to cure was also the power to poison, the power to bless was also the power to curse.

Most introductory books on magic, at least those written for and by Wiccans, will tell you not to harm others, and not to use magic to manipulate people. Some will go even further, and tell you not to heal people or try to make their lives better because that's manipulation or because we shouldn't interfere in someone else's life. I've even read books that says something like, "If your Aunt Sally has cancer, it's not your place to intefere and to heal her because maybe she has something to learn from her illness." That strikes me as absurd. It's like saying that you shouldn't take Aunt Sally to a doctor for treatment "because she might have something to learn from her illness." As far as I'm concerned, she can learn from her illness while fighting it, and that includes any prayers or magical aid people want to give her.

So the question is, if someone is doing something bad or harmful, do we let it go or do we take action?

In many pagan faiths, both those lost to history and those that are still being practiced, curses and vengeful magic are very real and have a valid place in the overall belief system. In most pagan religions, you have not only the right but the responsibility to take action against those who would harm you, your loved ones, or your community. In theory, using magic to bring justice to someone who has done you wrong is no less ethical than taking legal action against them. You help those who need help, you punish those who have caused harm, and you bind those who need to be restrained.

Every single day we have to make numerous decisions. We have to make decisions about how to approach a task at work, about how to settle a disagreement with a spouse, about how to discipline a child, etc. If you are diagnosed with an illness, you may have to choose between a number of treatment options. The simple fact of the matter is, you don't know how things are going to turn out. Your decision might change things for the better, or it might make them worse, or it might not have much of an impact one way or the other. The point is that even though you don't know for certain what the outcome is going to be, a decision has to be made. So you make the best decison you can based on whatever information you have to work with.

What does this have to do with cursing people or otherwise causing harm with magic? How we use our magic is like making any other decision in life. We consider the situation and the various courses of action available to us, we make a decision, and we accept the consequences. If someone hurts you you can a) do nothing, b) hurt them back, c) bind them, d) perform magic to make them realize the error of their ways, e) other.

Each choice has advantage and disadvantages. Each choice has consequences. The point is to choose, and choose wisely, and deal with the consequences of your choice.

Those of us who use magic have one advantage over those who don't: divination. We can seek guidance from runes or tarot cards or scrying into different courses of action and what the possible outcomes may be.

As far as encountering people who cut you off in traffic, there are ways to deal with this without "zapping" people. Magical road rage is a stupid as mundane road rage. Why not change your route to work or travel during less-heavy traffic periods? Why not avoid messy intersections, or petition the town council to put in a traffic light if that's what's needed. Why not ask the gods presiding over travel to clear your path for you before you leave, and make an appropriate offering in thanks? Or how about making a simple visualizing of a clear, trouble-free trip?

I must confess, I'm an angry driver. I yell at other drivers and I "curse" people without thinking. And you know what? Driving gets more and more unpleasant for me. I encounter more and more problems. I get more and more stressed out every time I get on the road. And when I'm really honest with myself, I make all the same mistakes that I curse other drivers for. I don't know if I've hurt anyone else (I hope not) but I *know* I'm hurting myself. The fact of the matter is that there are bad drivers out there and inconsiderate drivers out there, as well as a much of normal drivers who occasionally make mistakes. I don't think I have the power to make all the bad drivers go away, but I do have the power to change how I respond to those drivers, to remain calm and rational and to not let them get to me. I can try to be more forgiving and charitable. It's a work in progress.

'nuff said

--Sovaan

[Kaylara]

*nods in agreement*
I find that in traffic if you are being tailgated etc, just think very loudly about that person hitting you and the ensuing fireball... I find that it normally gives them the idea and the back off...

Kaylara

[Silver_Alhena]

In responce to all the excellent points made:

One thing that Paganism has taught me is responsibility for my actions. To 'get back' at someone using any magickal means is both an abuse of power, and a sign of weakness in myself.

It's a easy way out, and unfortunatly paganism, and wicca in particular can attract people who see magick as a way of avoiding responsibility, who think they can cast a spell, and everything will be okay.

If a guy doesn't fancy me, hey, it's nothing personal, they're just not right for me - I wouldn't cast a love spell to remedy that. If I'm skint at the end of the month, then I may have had unexpected expenses, or I haven't budgeted properly. It's my own doing, so casting a money spell should not be the answer.

The point being, that you cannot control other people, nor should you try to. Think of all the times where you've snapped at someone without thinking, do you really deserve to 'curse' someone for doing the same to you?

Now, if a person is intentionally causing harm, that is much different. I believe magick should only be used for what is essential to your physical/mental wellbeing.

Whereas getting your own back on people who cross you is tempting, it hardly teaches you to stand up for yourself.

[Gwion]

The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
upon the place beneath; it is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
Tis mightiest in the mightiest, it becomes
the throned monarch better than his crown.
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
the attribute to awe and majesty,
wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
but mercy is above this sceptered sway,
it is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
it is an attribute to God himself;
and earthly power doth then show likest God’s
when mercy seasons justice. Therefore,
though justice be thy plea, consider this,
that in the course of justice, none of us
should see salvation. We do pray for mercy,
and that same prayer doth teach us all to render
the deeds of mercy.
Portia, MERCHANT OF VENICE, IV, i

No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity.
Anne, RICHARD III, I, ii

With my nobler reason gainst my fury
do I take part. The rarer action is
in virtue than in vengeance.
Prospero, TEMPEST, V, I

[Flar's Freyja]

:woah: Gwion, do you have an encyclopedia of literary masterpieces stored in your head on CD-rom or somethin'? :lol:

[Demeter]

Let me change a few crucial words ...


Originally posted by qidrogreevat
I, personally, have no problem whatsoever with harming people, if they get in my way. I see it as my right as a gun wielder to be able to do this. I put in the target practice I get the results. Now, I'm not saying I'm going around shooting people left and right, but if some guy cuts in front of me, I'm gonna give him some hell to pay. Not much, but at least some.


Still agree?

Just because one CAN harm, does not mean one SHOULD. I'm perfectly capable of hexing as well as healing, and came very very close at one point when my former husband dumped me. I had the spell all worked out. I was gonna do such a job on both him and both of my alleged "friends" he was cheating on me with .... we're talking ugly city, here. I didn't. I could have, but I didn't.

IMHO, using magical techniques against someone who probably can't defend themself is irresponsible and cowardly. Witches have been accused of just that sort of attack for centuries, and whether it was deserved or not, we are all still fighting that reputation. Please don't contribute to it.

(I do suggest you read Kerr Cuhulain's book, Full Contact Magic. It's full of valuable information for those who want to follow the path of the warrior as opposed to the thug.)

[Kaylara]

I don't agree with you Demeter... I think that there are times and reasons to do negative magick. It's not an everyday occurance; in fact for me it is very rare... But some times it is neccessary...

When I was raped, I called down the rule of three on him, and asked the universe to give him what he deserved... He went through a series of broken bones, and finally wound up in a fully body cast.

I do not believe that if one is going to cast spells that one should rule out the negative... Life is not all white light and pentacles, and neither is magick.

[Ganga]

Purpose of magick is not to get things, but to grow as a person. Go forward on your spiritual path. Usually, I can get things much easier by more mundane means. Magick, then, has some higher purpose than just existing so we can gratify our senses and false egoes. (Gratifying our real egoes is another thing altogether)

[Tammy Sullivan]

Originally posted by Kaylara


When I was raped, I called down the rule of three on him, and asked the universe to give him what he deserved... He went through a series of broken bones, and finally wound up in a fully body cast.

I do not believe that if one is going to cast spells that one should rule out the negative... Life is not all white light and pentacles, and neither is magick.
(((Kaylara)))
Let me say that there is a very big difference in being raped, and being angry because someone cut in front of you. In your case you asked for the universe to repay him 3x, did you specify break his bones? If not, then he was repaid what he was owed, as decided by the divine.
What I was getting at was abusing the power of magic.

[Raevyn]

There is a time and place for defending yourself. And then there's times when you're just ticked off or frustrated, and doing some sort of magic to manifest the negativity just makes you perpetuate it - you raise it and send it, but some is still stuck with you. You let your negative feelings get ahold of you; you let yourself get angry and it's like lifting a leg to kick someone - you might kick them upside the head and give them the message, but then you might be off balance and could get pushed over or even fall over yourself.

When you dwell on negative energy you let it stay with you. You can become paranoid, defensive, over reactive. So if someone cuts in front of you, are they really worth your anger? Are they really worth your raising blood pressure or the adrenaline? Maybe they didn't see you; maybe they're distracted because their dad just died, or because they just got fired and have 4 kids to feed.

See my excuse isn't even so much about not hurting other people, it's about seeing that people who indulge in that hurt themselves. They might become bitter, or paranoid, or they might perceive someone else sending negative energy and by doing so set themselves up to have a hard time, even if no energy was set.

Destructive magic needs to be done sometimes, certainly. With considerable forethought and consideration of all options, and to defend oneself, I feel it is justified.

That said, I find some people refuse to use magic to obtain what they want and need. For some reason we're not supposed to want a nice house, a good job, a working car, or clothes to wear. We're supposed to transcend mundane needs - and yet, part of us *is* mundane. We do exist on the physical. The key is not to make this the center of our life, because if we make the mundane the center then it's all we have. If we use only magical and spiritual means and not mundane, then what we want will always only exist on the astral and not the physical.

I don't believe there is a one true always rule, but I do believe in careful consideration, forethought, and working towards one's true Will beyond momentary anger or emotions.

[Haedis]

Posted by Kaylara:
"When I was raped, I called down the rule of three on him, and asked the universe to give him what he deserved... He went through a series of broken bones, and finally wound up in a fully body cast."


If the Universe really intended to have the negativity rebound on him why would you have had to get involved at all? Its not as if the Universe needs us to tell it when to act accordingly, right? If it was meant to happen it would have regardless of any spell that was cast, IMO. Was it a spell for something specific like speeding up the process or what?

But then again I guess that makes no sense considering that if I believe everything happens for a reason (which I do) why is magick needed at all if it will just take care of itself?

Damn me...I should just stop thinking. I'm all fine and well with my beliefs until that damn "thinking" thing starts going again. :dis:

[Ganga]

Well, regarding rape: of course, justice has to be served and other potential victims protected. Doing a spell so that the guy will be caught and locked up is justice. I have also done a spell once to cut a negative connection between myself and another person, supporting that spell with mundane acts as well.

[Jax]

I view life that everyone has the 'right' to do what ever they want. BUT, what goes around comes around! Just be very careful and forever watchful for that which is returning to you!:eek: (and I'm NOT a wiccan, just someone who has been taught by her elders that you should treat others the way that you want to be treated!;) )
BB!!
)0(

[Jax]

Originally posted by Greta

I don't see it that way, I consider magic to be a responsibility and a gift, not a power trip.

Here! Here!! :D

[Witchy Cowgirl]

Greta, I believe your saying will be infamous and I agree!
"I consider magic to be a responiblity and a gift not a power trip."
How true.

I also believe what goes around comes around. I have found very few reasons in my life that I would need to curse someone. I don't think a cheating husband would be a reason and I applaud Demeter for re-thinking her spell. I'm quite sure that both those folks will get what they deserve. I can see on the other hafd where, in a particular violent crime such as rape, that a spell would be a wise if for no other reason to re-gain your self-confidence.

Protection is a different matter. I will protect me and mine with whatever means I find necessary. I've been in physical fights, I've found it necessary to call the law on people, I've loaded the shotgun and pointed it at the door when an intruder was on the other side. I will protect me and mine. I believe that to be my right. But, I will never "start" something. (On purpose anyway.) I've even defended folks who weren't in the position to defend themselves. Only once have I used a spell in defense, but I intended no harm in the spell - just that me and mine be left alone.

Inferior? Who has the right to judge this quailty in anyone? Just because I live in a trailor does that make me and my family inferior to the guy down the road who lives in the nice brick house. Just because I drive an '85 Blazer does that make the person driving the beat up Gremlin with a busted windshield inferior to me? Really, we shouldn't judge. We don't know what is in another's heart, life, mind, or soul.

I try my best to think about any of my actions and their consequeses before I do them, mundane or magical. I work for the best outcome. I also believe that there is already too much negativity in the world without me releasing more.

[Gwion]

but I just do anyway.

[Sovaan]

Wow, what a great discussion. Magical ethics is actually the topic of my next study group, so this is very helpful to me.

In response to Silver_Alhena:
I agree with what you said about taking responsibility for ourselves and not using magic as an easy way out, but it begs the queston: when is magic a correct and appropriate course of action? I've spent the past decade hardly ever doing any magic, not because I didn't need it, but because I was too afraid to try. I wasn't sure if magic was the "right" way to go about things. I was the same way in my mundane life, staying in unhappy situations because I was too afraid to change, too afraid to try something new. It's only just been recently that I've decided that if I want a better life, I've got to make some changes, and that means trying new things and taking some chances. I may fall on my ass in the process. I may get hurt and I'll probably suffer more than a little embarrassment, but that's the price you have to pay to grow as a person. I'm not exactly sure how yet, but magic is going to be a part of this process. To that end, I've retired by store-bought wand, and have begun making my own wand--the first tool I've made for myself. (I've been discussing wands in a couple of other threads on this site.)

Gwion, thanks for the Shakespeare. I will write down those passages and meditate on them further.

Demeter, you make some excellent points, and your analogy of magic to guns was effective. I think you were right not to take action against your ex. But if your ex were threatening you and/or your children, then what? Some people would say that all you can or should do is a protection spell. Other people would say that it's OK to take a more aggressive approach, if you think it's *necessary* and that it's worth the consequences. (I'm operating under the assumption that all negative magic will have some consequences.)

[Sovaan]

Raevyn said everything I was trying to say, only better. And much more concisely.

--Sovaan

[Mythrel]

for me, the 3 fold law is more important than anything else...I am not wiccan and do not subscribe to the "an it harm none" rule. I however whole heartedly believe in the 3 fold law that whatever I send out will return to me 3 fold...I have seen it happen on more occassions than I like to admit...that's what keeps me in check...

I too have worked up the spells to get vengence on someone who has ticked me off...I know the power of hate...I so far, in every instance have talked myself down from casting the destructive spell for fear of the return on my actions...so far I haven't found anything worth risking the rebound of negativity/destruction into my world...

enough of my 2 cents worth...

Great thread...

[Tammy Sullivan]

Originally posted by Sovaan
Raevyn said everything I was trying to say, only better. And much more concisely.

--Sovaan
She is really good at that, huh?;) Her and Mith have to explain most of what I say. LOL

[Yvonne Belisle]

I grew up with the line if you wouldn't want someone to do it to you don't do it to them. I try to follow that though I do not always succeed. My favorite blessing/curse is simply may you get what you deserve in life. I have found it to be quite effective and I am not asking for any harm to come to anyone unless they have deserved it and I am not making that choice to be judge and jury.

[Phoenix Blue]

**Nods** Well-said, Yvonne.

I do think that looking out for oneself is important; but I don't think it should come at the detriment of others unless absolutely necessary, ie. in self defense. Using majick against someone just because he cut you off is asinine and irresponsible. It is a child's temper tantrum.

There is more to majick than knowing how--there is also knowing when.

[Kaylara]

Exactly.

[Laiste]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
**Nods** Well-said, Yvonne.

I do think that looking out for oneself is important; but I don't think it should come at the detriment of others unless absolutely necessary, ie. in self defense. Using majick against someone just because he cut you off is asinine and irresponsible. It is a child's temper tantrum.

There is more to majick than knowing how--there is also knowing when.

I agree...and I would just like to add the fact that Qid is 14...nuff said.

[SimplyStrange]

Personally, it takes too much time and energy to be negative... that and sure you might get to some level of high power... but think of how many people will actually respect you in you cut down everyone if your way... sure a lot of people who do that have some power, but they're not looked at as very good people. Now Gandhi, the Dali Lama (sp?!) and Mother Theresa... I know someone else used them as examples. Why? Because their belief was not to harm others... and look at how they're looked at. Look at how much respect and worship they get...

Now, who's got the real power?

[AmbivalentMirage]

I, for once, avoid destructive magick, but I believe it is a necessary part of life. Just as the athame has two sides to represent the good and evil in magickal workings, sometimes we have to do some destructive magick to balence the constructive magick we do so often. A good example is this: I had a friend who was constantly talking behind my back. I did everything humanly possible to save my friendship with him, but no matter what I said, he missed the point entirely. So I used a friendship-healing ritual as a way to help rebuild the "burnt bridges" between us. It worked quite well...but he continued to talk behind my back. I decided it was time to do something to stop it. So, I carefully considered my options and decided to do a simple visualization exercise in which I visualized that everytime he opened his mouth to speak unkind things about me, a black veil would cover his mouth and hold back his words. Sure enough, within a few days it stopped entirely. Our friendship healed and everything balenced out.

That is just once example, however. I still believe that you should first do whatever you can in "human" capacities, then try healing/growth magick, and then as a lastly, destructive magick. But destructive should be a last resort. Why doesn't this disrupt my forementioned balence? There are forces working tirelessly to do things that are evil, unkind, and harmful. It is our job to do what is right and project good energies into the world. However, even we must sometimes take on the role of the "vindicator". Generally I like to leave this role to the universal powers, as it is their job to keep things in balence and repay people according to their deeds...but often desperate times call for desperate measures.

If it is something minor, I try to let life take it's course and repay the person for their good/bad deed. However, once things are out of control, I believe it to be a sign that the universe is telling me that I must take on this battle and balence out the energies of the situation on my part.

Just my $0.02. :)

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by qidrogreevat
I, personally, have no problem whatsoever with harming people, if they get in my way. I see it as my right as a magic wielder to be able to do this.

*sighs sadly and shakes head*

That's probably the most horrific statement I've read in a while.

One should always have a *problem* with harming people. Even the greatest warriors in the world had *problems* with harming people, and they certainly didn't do it simply because it was their right as Samurai.

Sure there is a time and a place for action, there is a time and a place for violence even. But the true measure of a person is the one who does their duty and still feels the pain of the harm done.

There have been many people in history who had no problem whatsoever with harming people....Hitler, Stalin, Osama bin Ladin are among the names which float to the top.

Being a "magick wielder" doesn't give you the Right to harm people. It means you have the Responsibility to act in a manner which protects life.

[Mythrel]

Originally posted by Laiste
I agree...and I would just like to add the fact that Qid is 14...nuff said.

Please do not stereotype Qid for age. I do not feel that is respectful. Thanks End Moderator Mode

[qidrogreevat]

Thanks Mythrel. Laiste: I might seem a bit 'new age' to you, but I do not agree that age endears such qualities as lack of knowledge and having an opinion that doesn't count.

I think a few of you have read what you want to read and not what I said. For a start, the cutting me off in a car was just an example, I'm not such a petty person as to actually attack someone for doing that. Besides, I can't drive yet ;).

Greta: With the inferior statement, I really meant that in magical terms mundanes are weaker than magical wielders and so shall suffer the consequences if they annoy\attack the magical wielder enough. And by annoy, I don't mean speak rudely or cut someone off, I mean wagering a constant interchange of bickering and arguments, and just generally being an all round idiot all the time. (some of you may have read my post on a horrific neighbour, this is where my point of view is coming from). And also, would you not think that others are inferior to the Dalai Lama? Because that's what I see magic users as, just nowhere near as much.

And I used the 'If I can save the world and end hunger' thing to show the flipside, that using negative magic on the odd occasion doesn't turn someone into a monster incapable of showing human emotions.

If someone does something to me and I punch them in the head, then it's generally an accepted thing i.e. He deserved it. But if magic is involved plenty of people start becoming very...offended, and begin bringing out such statements as 'Life is sacred' and that sort of stuff, as if the person were going to be killed.

Also, people seem to think of my statement as being evil all the time, and using black magic is exhaustive, so on. I, personally, do not think that black magic is in anyway 'evil' it simply depends on the way you look at it. Also, I'm not constantly attacking people and being a general evil madman. I live life and on very rare occasions i.e. perhaps once a year, curse someone or something. I find this actually helps in magic, as AmbivalentMirage said, there is two sides to the athame. If you learn only one side, you are limiting yourself to at least half of what there is.

Valnorran: I also do martial arts, and I understand exactly where you are coming from. The study has made me a more calm, caring, and determined person than ever before. I try to avoid fights at any cost, because of a fight I had, where I pretty badly hurt the other guy. I feel bad because of it (hmmm, feeling bad because I hurt someone? That doesn't sound like the me many of you have been portraying).

Finally, I do not believe in the threefold law whatsoever. Now this is just personal choice, and many of you will probably saying that I'm disregarding what doesn't fit in with me, but in my experience, the threefold law is just doing something bad, expecting something thrice as bad to happen, and noticing bad things that aren't normally noticed because of it, or else drawing bad things to oneself, by concentrating on the threefold law. I think it is a rudimentary form of magic\awareness.

I believe that hurting people with little or no reason is, indeed, a horrific thing, but, when the time is called for, negative magic is very useful and can do a lot for you.

I forgot to add: A lot of you are saying 'Don't do unto others, what one does not want to happen to oneseld' or something along those lines. I feel that if someone can catch me off guard because I abused him\her at a football game, or because I cut in front of him\her, then good on him\her, I deserved it.

[Gwion]

Judo is a good analogy for wielding magic. It works best and takes less effort to use the attackers own energy against them. I don't believe in the law of 3, I believe in straight 1 for 1 karma.

Tis the sport to have the enginer
hoist with his own petar, an’t shall go hard
but I will delve one yard below their mines
and blow them at the moon.
Hamlet, HAMLET, III, iv

Sometimes it is folly to wait for someone to act in an evil way and then react to it. Binding someone from doing harm is perfectly acceptable to me, and responsible.

I do spy a kind of hope which craves as desperate an execution as that is desperate which we would prevent.
Friar Lawrence, ROMEO & JULIET, IV, iii

It is also easier to avoid a fight if you look like you could mop up the floor with your opponent. Martial Arts as a physical, mental and emotional discipline is an excellent compliment to working magic, especially in developing focus and confidance.

[Tammy Sullivan]

I, personally, have no problem whatsoever with harming people, if they get in my way. I see it as my right as a magic wielder to be able to do this. I put in the study I get the results. Now, I'm not saying I'm going around cursing people left and right, but if some guy cuts in front of me, I'm gonna give him some hell to pay. Not much, but at least some.

I think a few of you have read what you want to read and not what I said. For a start, the cutting me off in a car was just an example, I'm not such a petty person as to actually attack someone for doing that. Besides, I can't drive yet .

Here I am confused on what you intend, but do want to tell you that if it is your belief, then stand your ground. You do not have to change it around to suit me or anyone else. No one is judging you here.:)
As far as the inferior thing, no I would not say others are inferior to anyone, be it the Dalai Lama or no.

And I used the 'If I can save the world and end hunger' thing to show the flipside, that using negative magic on the odd occasion doesn't turn someone into a monster incapable of showing human emotions.
I have no problem with this. As I stated in my post I find little that is worth it, but there is the rare occasion. I also believe in justice work as shown in my post to Kaylara.
I'm sorry if you think I read into your post what I wanted, but you couldn't be more wrong, and you did ask for our opinions. I also want to point out the first two posts quoted above, I read it as it is shown.

[qidrogreevat]

Greta: Heh, you were one of the people I wasn't referring to the reading in of it. But, in all honesty, the cutting in front bit was just an example, I didn't bend my belief to suit what others have said.

[Valnorran]

Of course, negative/destructive magick has its uses. Banishing a bad personal habit springs to mind. As far as others go, however, I'm most comfortable using a spell that returns their energy to them. That way any harm done to them is by their own hand. Maybe there are instances where a destructive spell aimed at a specific person are allowable. Can't say I would've felt bad if our rape victim had cast a spell on her attacker. In such an extreme instance, I'd say the SOB deserved everything she could throw at him and worse. I know the universe/gods/etc. are supposed to dispence justice, but who is to say what tool they'll use? Perhaps the energy swirling around in an outraged victim? I would have no objections if she were to get a gun and blow him to hell (provided, of course, it was done in a manner that endagered no one else). If I don't object to her harming him on the mundane level, I wouldn't object to her harming him on the magickal level, either. Still, that is an extreme and unusual situation. For general, garden variety a-holes, I would go with general reflecting or protection spells. As Gwion pointed out, intimidation has a lot of strategic value. If non-magickal enemies know you're into the occult, it might freak them out enough to completely leave you alone. Of course, this can blow up in your face, too. It just depends on the circumstances.

Wanderer, I agree with most of what you said. Just to be a nit-picking history freak, though, most samurai I've read about had no objections to slicing and dicing anyone who irritated them or their lord sicced them on. If I remember correctly, Musashi Miyamoto slew a 12 year old boy. All nit-picking aside, though, I got and agree with your point.

[Sowelu]

Originally Posted by qidrogreevat:
I think a few of you have read what you want to read and not what I said.

We read it exactly as it was written, only now you seem to be sugar-coating it.
imo:)

[Ganga]

Actually, when I first started to read Bhagavad-Gita, I was most disturbed that Krishna adviced Arjuna to fight (although Arjuna was ready to throw away his bow&arrows and choose the path of non-violence). Krishna's point was that justice had to be served. In those days, warriors also used many magical skill to enhance their fighting abilities - arrows released with the power of a mantra, etc. So, clearly, there are situations when destructive magic is called for.

But. And here's the point. It requires great maturity to do so at the right time. I'm not talking of anybody's physical age here, but of inner maturity. I know I'm not always mature enough, even though I'm over 30.

Also, there are many examples in stories of how power to hurt was used wrongly. One that comes to mind now, is the story of a brahmin boy who cursed the king to die after 7 days simply because the king had shown slight disrespect to his (the boy's) father. The king had come to visit the boy's father - a great sage - and had been annoyed that the sage did not receive him warmly due to being in deep meditation at the time of the king's arrival. The king placed a dead snake around the sage's neck and left. For that "offense", the boy cursed him to die. He had no understanding of the king's motivations or of the larger picture, he simply boiled in anger.

Also: I feel innocense is protective. If someone offends me unintentionally, I let it pass. And people may offend a "magick-wielding person", not knowing of his/her "greatness". Should she/he be punished? Someone may call the Queen a fool if the Queen is in disguise. Should the Queen hang him for a treason?

And finally: Who among us is greater than the other? Whose life is worth more? Am I dearer to Goddess than the guy next door? Am I the judge to decide another's human value?

[WandererInGray]

Originally posted by qidrogreevat
And also, would you not think that others are inferior to the Dalai Lama? Because that's what I see magic users as, just nowhere near as much.

Interesting you would mention the Dalai Lama like that....and I could tell you, he'd be horrified to hear you insinuate that he's more important than anyone else.

Buddhists see all as equal. No matter birth or species or intelligence.

*shakes head*

Life is not about who is inferior and who is superior, and it's thinking like that which in my mind leads to wars and genocide and all sorts of other power trips.

*shrugs* ...I didn't misunderstand what you said...the tone and message of your posts is still coming across loud and clear: "Wizards are more important than muggles." :rolleyes:

[Gwion]

I was going to comment on Krishna's advice to Arjuna, but you nailed it for me. Human evil requires more than prayer and hope, sometimes it requires the sword to stop it.

[qidrogreevat]

I admit it that my statement about others being inferior was wrong, but I still stand by my view of negative magic being useful. I just want to say that when I posted my original message, I was very annoyed at a person who had been going on about how magic was only to be used for good and all the other stuff, and was calling me a devil worshipper for saying otherwise.

[Tammy Sullivan]

I certainly agree that negative magic does have it's uses, But it is not to be taken lightly or abused. The funny thing is that when I am angry, I feel that intent alone would be enough to kill if I were to use magic then. I stay away from it for that reason, I have a hard time controlling it. But that does not mean that if it was called for that I would shy away from it.