let's put the conversation on male vs female here

[Yvonne Belisle]

I have noticed that the thread on poligamy has degenerated into a male dominated society vs female dominated society debate. I have also noticed a strong antimale sentiment coming out in the thread so lets give it it's own thread and see where the discussion leads.




I must have had unique teachers or just been lucky. My teachers have never hidden the acomplishments of females. I have learned of the roles that they played in societies from an early age, and more teachers are trying to let people know how things were. I have also had experiences with men that felt women were in some manner inferior. I personally think that by lowering the standards that rule some job fields so that a woman can do the job is wrong. No there may not be as many who can do the same things as the guys but at least I know that they can do the job. A good example of this is the US military. I am a disabled veteran of the Navy, I have arthuritis in my knees lower back and both hips I am capable of passing the physical fitness tests that they have for women now. This doesn't make me inclined to think that they can do the job. In fact I think it has become a mockery. These women aren't even remotely combat ready! There is a point when equality becomes a mockery of what it is ment to protect. There are women who are able to do the same physical training as the men if they are willing I say let them be in the military but not some powder puff who can't even pick thier own body off of the ground.

Just as we can't put all Christians in one little mold and say they are all alike we can't do this with men. I have been put through hell on earth by them and still don't group them all in the same mold. It's a stereotype and I don't like to see that what are ordinarily open minded people lumping a group by sex or religion or color or any other diferentiating factor.

[dragondancer]

Unfortunately, all of the programs and things designed to empower women make it seem as if they are less capable. I believe that things should be equal, and that women should have equal access, however, I feel that we still live in a fairly double sided society where women expect the same treatment as men, yet they get upset when they are expected to perform the same functions as men. I agree with you that women generally are not combat ready because in some cases they are pansied through because so many women have appealed to the armed forces and the government to make it open and fair for them to participate and unfortunately the government's answer is to make something easier for them. The only problem with that is it is not fair by any means because they are not trained to accomplish the same tasks on the testing ground, yet they are expected to accomplish them out in the field and that is very unfortunate. I think that there are certain male/female roles and while I believe that no one should be denied the right to do anything that they want to do, irregardless of gender, they should only be permitted to do them if they are fully capable of doing them and can pass the same types of training and testing that their male or female counterparts would pass!!

On the other topic of lumping people together, I said it in my post on the polygamy topic that I feel that there are good and bad people in every race, religion, culture etc. To say that everyone is a certain way because one or two people or even a part of that group is is a travesty!! I can't stand when people make blanket terms such as "all Asians are this way" or "all Jewish people are that way" because that is completely wrong!!

[Earth Walker]

Reverence for the Goddess as Nu Kwa (Nu Kua) comes to us
from the people of the northern provinces of China today known
as Hopei and Shansi, the area once known as Chi'. The most
detailed accounts of Nu Kwa's creation of all people, and Her
repair of the universe, are from texts of the Han period (about
200 B.C. - 200 A.D.). They appear in the writings known as the
LIEH TZU, the FENG SU TUNG YI, the SHAN HAI CHING, all from
the Han period. There are less detailed remnants concerning the
nature of the Goddess Nu Kwa that appear in the literature of
the Chou period (starting at about 1000 B.C.), but according to
Chinese tradition the story of Nu Kwa repairing the universe
dates to about 2500 B.C., the time spoken of as the period of
The Great Cosmic Struggle. The emphasis on the harmony and
rightness of nature's patterns, in the legends of Nu Kwa, offers
an interesting comparison to that same emphasis that is the core of the TAO TEH CHING. Visual images of Nu Kwa, with the tail of
a fish, provide interesting parallels to Atargatis and Nina.

The Goddess Kuan Yin (Kwan Yin) is still revered in China today,
but may well be that Kuan Yin is a relatively recent reflection of
the more ancient Nu Kwa. Both NU and YIN mean woman, while
the word K'uai means earth, and although the connection is not
certain, both names may refer to a concept of the Goddess as
Earth or Nature. Some of the accounts of Kuan Yin, still told today,
describe Her as having originally been a male who had reached
the state of Buddha being, but who then decided to return to
earth as a Boddhisatva, a spiritual teacher -- taking the form of
Kuan Yin. This idea, that the Goddess was once a Buddhist
devotee, can of course only have developed after the birth of the
first Buddha, Gautama Siddartha (about 560 B.C.), and may
reflect the influence of one set of beliefs upon the other, the
newer concepts of Buddhism superimposed upon beliefs about
the ancient Goddess. Images of Kuan Yin, riding upon a dolphin,
may be related to the fish tailed images of Nu Kwa.

These scanty references to the Goddess as Hsi Ho appear in the
Shai Han Ching and the Huai Nan Tzu, both texts of the Han
period. In these writings, Hsi Ho is said to live beyond the south-
eastern waters, in an area referred to as the Sweet Waters,
Kan Shui. Even more minimal remnants of information about the nature of Hsi Ho appear in the earlier Chou texts.
The Fu Sang tree is generally thought to be a mulberry.
Three hundred li is about one hundred miles. It may be completely
coincidental, but it is interesting to realize that the concept of
there being ten suns also appears in the beliefs of the Native
American Shasta tribes of California.

The story of TIEN HOU can still be heard around the area of the
island Meichow Tao, located off the central coastline of China.
It is an account that appears to be about a young woman who
might be considered to be a mortal heroine, rather than a
Goddess figure, yet the mystical aspects of Her supernatural
abilities and powers, and the manner in which they are used, transcend Her mortality. The evidence of shrines and statues of
Tien Hou suggests that the image of Tien Hou was a long held
religious image that, as with many other ancient Chinese beliefs,
was later embrodoidered upon to explain the origin of Her existence.

The tale of Gum Lin is another that is still remembered in China.
Although its central theme is that of hardship and drought,
certainly real enough problems in the life of people in some parts
of China, it is also the legendary memory of a young woman who
was so concerned about the people of her village that she
would not be swayed from her goal of helping them, even when
tempted by personal comforts and riches. The portrayal of the
mortal supernatural image of another young woman, Loy Yi Lung,
the daughter of the dragon. As the story proceeds, it is clear that
only by the cooperative efforts of the two young women can the
difficulties of the people be overcome. The interpretations of
this legend, and its possible underlying morals or messages,
may be numerous, but the sense of self-esteem offered to girls
growing up on such stories is certainly clear enough.

Evidence of this most ancient Celtic Goddess, as Divine Ancestress of the Tuatha de Danaan (literally, tribe of Danu), is
found primarily in the Irish LEBOR GAHALA (Book of Invasions),
dated at about 1000 A.D. In the Welsh MABINOGIN, Her name
is given as Don. This image of the Goddess among the Celts is
one that probably originated during the periods that Celtic tribes
inhabited the mainland of Europe, the reverence for Danu beong
closely linked with the River Danube (Donau).
The Celtic Danaans may have been related to the Danes, the
Greek Danaans, the Danuna, or even, as some have speculated,
to the tribe of Dan in Canaan. Considering the widespread
movements of the Celts, any or all of these associations may be
correct, but until further research is done, none can be stated
with certainty. There is also the question of possible links between the name Danu, the name Dione as a Goddess name
in Greece, and the Goddess name Diana, as known by the Romans. The name Danu may mean wisdom or teacher, as in the
English word don, or giving, as in the root of the word donate.

The Morrigan is a major figure in the Irish epic TAIN BO CUALGNE.
The narrative of the epic makes it clear that The Morrigan's
loyalties are with the Tuathat de Danaan and the Celtic tribes
that had settled in the area of the large nation/state of Connacht.
Though at times there is a tendency on the part of some to
attribute a triple nature to Goddess images from all cultures, even
when there is a complete absence of evidence of triplicity, there
is no doubt about the triple nature of The Morrigan.
This concept of the threefold nature of the Goddess among the Celts may also be seen in the Goddess as Bridget, as well as in the Three Matrons or Mothers who were often depicted in Celtic
art, sitting side by side. But unlike the more sedentary images
of The Mothers, The Morrigan was extremely active, even
aggressive, and certainly always acting with a comfortable self
assurance.

The name of Macha (literally meaning mighty) is given as one of
the three aspects of The Morrigan, but in several accounts Macha appears almost as a separate deity. Thus we may regard the
following material, primarily from the Irish NOINDEN ULAD, as the
acts of Macha, while at the same time consider them to be the
actions of one of the aspects of The Morrigan.
Macha appears to be the embodiment of the equine imagery of the Goddess, suggesting a relationship to the Celtic Mare
Goddess known in Europe as Epona. Two sites in Ireland's
county of Ulster still bear the name of Macha, one an ancient
capital of Ulster known as Emain Macha, literally Twins of Macha,
the other, Ard Macha, the present day city of Armagh. The story
of the curse that Macha laid upon the county of Ulster is one
that might well linger in our minds upon considering the tragic
plight of that county today.

The name of Cerridwen has been translated both as Cauldron of
Wisdom and Fortress of Wisdom, CAER meaning fortress, CERRU
meaning cauldron. Although references to Cerridwen occur as
fragments in several texts, most of the information about Her is
to be found in the work of the Welsh Elis Grufydd done in the
sixteenth century A.D. Grufydd relied upon oral traditions and
earlier texts in compiling his treatises on ancient Celtic literature.
The powers attributed to Cerridwen, who was described by
Grufydd as a witch, reveal Her nature as one imbued with great
wisdom, prophetic foresight and magical shapeshifting abilities.
This account, of the thefts of these powers by the male Gwion,
may offer some insight into the otherwise puzzling accounts of
Merlin's capture by the Lady of the Lake.


For those who love, time is eternity....

[Mairwen]

Kerridwen/Cerridwen is a bastardization of "Cariadwen" ~ She Who is Beloved (or, The Beloved One).

[Earth Walker]

Morgan Le Fay And
The Lady Of The Lake

The image of Morgan le Fay is generally thought to have been
derived from earlier Celtic beliefs in The Morrigan. Although
Morgan Le Fay and The Lady of The Lake are most often
described and presented as two quite separate figures, the many
curious links between them, suggest that they may both have
been derived from a single, earlier, concept of the Goddess.
Again we will want to remember the widespread habitation of the
Celts in Europe, as we read of Morgan Le Fay in England and
Wales, Morgain la Fee in France, and Fata Morgana in Italy.
Along with similiarities of mystic isles, secret lakes and castles on
crystal mountains, the events surrounding the Celtic accounts of
Arthur, and the sword Ex Calibur, should lead us to a more
careful exploration of the connection between these two figures,
whether as Goddess or Faerie Queens. In exploring these
connections, it may also be helpful to consider the other Goddess
images associated with specific bodies of water; Sequana of the
River Seine, Boann of the River Boyne, Danu of the Danube,
Cerridwen of Lake Llyn Tegid and the magical Caer who lived on
Loch Bel Dragon. (The lake of Caer may offer some insight into
the traditions surrounding Loch Ness in Celtic Scotland, the Loch
Ness 'monster' said to have been 'subdued' by the christian
missionary St. Columba at about 550 A.D.) The stories of the male wizard Merlin, being captured by The Lady Of The Lake, may be
the result of the confusion caused by transitions of the powers
of the earlier images of the Goddess to a male as more clearly
described in the accounts of Cerridwen and Taliesien/Gwion.


For those who love, time is eternity....

[Earth Walker]

BRIDGET

The transitions in the status and nature of the Brigante Goddess
Bridget, whose powers wre celebrated at the Celtic ritual of
Imbolc on February 1st, help us to morew clearly understand the
continual process of the christianizing of early Celtic deities.
In the case of the information on Bridget, we are fortunate enough to have both the accounts of Bridget as thesupreme
Goddess of the Brigantes, as well as accounts of the later
canonization of Bridget as a christian saint -- said to have been
the midwife to the Virgin Mary. The fire at Bridget's shrine in
Kildare, originally tended by priestesses, was later cared for by
catholic sisters -- until the decree of a bishop declared it to be
Pagan, and ordered that that the fire be extinguished in 1220 A.D.

Folk traditions of the Cailleach Bheur are found primarily in
Ireland, though closely associated with a very similiar figure,
sometimes known as Mala Liath (Grey Mare), in Scotland. The
name Cailleach is alternately translated as hag, crone, or wise
old woman. Yet it is clear from the accounts of Cailleach's ability
to move mountains, and to have carried the massive stones of
the sacred circles and cairns in Her apron, that She was viewed as far more than a mortal woman. The accounts explaining that it
was the Cailleach who created the many stone monuments in
Celtic areas may once again cause us to suspect the origins of
the attributes credited to the wizard Merlin, one of which was that
he alone had brought the stones to Stonehenge, and built the
great monument himself. The images of both the Cailleach, and
Mala Liath, as a grey mare, provide possible connections to the images of the Irish Macha and the Welsh Rhiannon, and we may
once again look to the ancient Mare Goddess Epona for their
origins.

The image of Maeve is a somewhat unusual combination of a
Faerie Queen and a martial leader of troops. Maeve's appearence
in the TAIN BO CUALGNE is as a mighty queen, and general of the
army of the Irish county/state of Connacht. Both Her husband
Aillil and Her lover Fergus, rode alongside Her in battle, Maeve
clearly leading the way for all three. In the FLED BRICRENN of the
LEBOR na L'Uidre, Maeve was portrayed asa judge of protocol and
status among the Celtic peoples. As Queen of the Faeries, Maeve's tomb was said to be a cairn overlooking Sligo Bay, in an
area that was once part of Connacht. Later images of Maeve as
the Shakesperian Mab, Queen of the Faeries, were based upon
these ancient traditions of the Celtic Medb or Maeve, as they
remained in Anglo-Saxon England.

The name Rhiannon was derived from an earlier name for this image of the Goddess among the Welsh, Rigatona, literally
translated as Great Queen Goddess. The importance of the pale-
white horse of Rhiannon, and the magical bag of abundance that
She possessed, both suggest that the image of Rigantona was
in turn derived from the Mare Goddess Epona. Epona was often depicted at Celtic sites in Europe, carrying a similiar bag or pouch,
inscriptions beneath Her image carrying the epithet -- Regina
(Queen). The assertive wit, tinged with a bit of sarcasm, that is
noticeable in the words attributed to Maeve, is also found in
several of the passages of the CYFRANC a'r MAB of the
MABINOGIN that are concerned with Rhiannon.
One passage records that as Rhiannon rode upon Her magical
horse, a prince of Dyfed made many attempts to catch up with Her, each in vain.
After several days of trying, always finding his horses slower than
Hers, the prince finally called out, asking Her to wait. Rhiannon
turned to the prince, still far behind Her,agreeing to his request,
but not hesitating to add, "...and it would have been far better
for the horse had you asked long before this."

Knowledge of the puberty rituals for young women, and the reverence for the Goddess, of the Cuna peoples of Panama, is
drawn from anthropological field studies done during the last
century, especially the work of Dr. Clyde Keeler. The painting of
the red juice of the saptur fruit upon the face of the initiate, as a
symbol of the menarche, is echoed in menarche rituals among the
Navajo. The cave, as the burial place of the dead, offers an
interesting parallel to the womb/cave of the Goddess as Kunapipi
in Australia.


For those who love, time is eternity....

[Yvonne Belisle]

I see a lot about female oriented religion but I don't see anything where it says that the societies were female dominated. Am I missing it? I do like all of the facts on the female goddesses you are locating. Information is never wasted. I am finding this facinating thank-you for bringing this information to us.

[Mairwen]

It'd be nice to see some God and Goddess information in the God and Goddess Forum, as well. :rolleyes:

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by Mairwen
It'd be nice to see some God and Goddess information in the God and Goddess Forum, as well. :rolleyes:

Can we move the thread to the G/G forum?


For those who love, time is eternity....