How do you view Satan?

[David19]

This is my last post, I promise, but, I do really like learning about Christian theology and beliefs. This question has interested me for awhile now, but, how do you view Satan?. Do you think he's an Fallen Angel, some type of dark, evil God of a Hell dimension that opposes God, some minor demon lord, more in allegorical terms or symbolic?, would you view him as being similar to the Buddhist concept of Mara (although, there are important differences between them)?.

Do you, also, think that Satan, and all evil, will eventually be destroyed forever, or do you think evil will exist in one form or another?, for myself, I tend to favour the latter view, I think evil exists, no matter what, it's a part of the universe (or multiverse, whatever term you want to use), and, I tend to favour a more Manichaen view that evil and good are both opposite and equal powers, sometimes, one wins, sometimes the other, but, neither can really do much to completely destroy each other.

Anyway, I'd really like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks :).

[evergreen]

A very interesting question and I'm going to type my thoughts out as I'm discovering them, because I've never actually thought of it.

I believe in the Christian god, but I don't worship or follow him in any manner. I feel like because I have that belief, I can't really go and say that Satan doesn't exist.

On the other hand, I wonder if Satan was taken from a Pagan nature god and changed into this evil, antagonist of YHWH, or whatever else you call the Christian god. I guess the best way to describe this belief is that he is a thought-form, if you're familiar with the term.

It's very difficult for me to view a completely good and then a completely evil god. I think there is a mixture in all of us and even my own gods. That's why it's so hard for me to say that Satan is a god. If I were to agree that he is one, I would really have to work to define how I view him.

It's really just easier to say I don't believe in his existence, but that's just kind of avoiding the subject and really does me no good. :cutie:

Hope this makes sense! I think it's a very intriguing question and can't wait to hear others opinions because I too am rather fascinated with Christian beliefs, even though I left that faith.

[john.a]

Satan, traditionally and in my opinion, is the most beautiful of all angels. The strongest, the most powerful, the most charming, seductive and brilliant of all angels. But he is not God.

And that is what evil is: everything seductive that is not God. It's always the next best thing but it isn't God. It's awesome and great, and oh-my-god-that-feels-so-good but in the end, it doesn't measure up to the greatest: God.

I feel there is a commandment, reverberating all throughout the Bible, to worship God alone. God Himself tells us, "I Am the Best. I made you to deserve the Best. You deserve Me and I Am the Best for you and you must not settle for anything less. I Am your God, I Am the God of Israel and I will do this for you and this for you and that for you and I will do everything for you because I Am The Best and you will only be happy in Me." It's His standard: to be at peace in Him.

Satan's pride is what made him fall for refusing to put God/The Best above his own beauty, strength, power, charm, seductiveness and brilliance. And when we put the beauty, strength, power, charm, seductiveness and brilliance of Satan above God, we're not living up to His standard.

[Darth Brooks]

This is my last post, I promise,

I hope not! :)


On the other hand, I wonder if Satan was taken from a Pagan nature god and changed into this evil, antagonist of YHWH, or whatever else you call the Christian god. I guess the best way to describe this belief is that he is a thought-form, if you're familiar with the term.

Satan originates from the Old Testament H-ShTN, an adversarial angel whose title (not a name) means "accuser." Originally the word was used to describe anything that could be construed as an "adversary," including YHWH Himself at times. In the book of Job, H-ShTN is not the enemy of YHWH, but a member of the company of heaven whose job is to test the faith of YHWH's followers (in this case, Job). The idea of an angel who is actually the enemy of YHWH didn't come about until Second Temple-era Judaism, and originally, this angel was identified variously as Semiaza, Azazel, Samael, or Belial. The title H-ShTN did not become a proper name for the Adversary ("Satan") until shortly before the time of Christ. And by that time, Satan had already acquired many features from previous Adversary figures that appeared in pagan religions, such as Ahriman in Zoroastrianism. The book of Revelation's description of Satan as a "dragon" is part of a long line of Middle Eastern "combat myths," in which a mighty warrior God (e.g., Marduk, Ba'al, Set) battles and eventually destroys a dragon or giant snake of chaos (e.g., Tiamat, Ba'al's Dragon, Apep). Even before the rise of Satan in Abrahamic religion, YHWH was already believed by Jews to have battled Leviathan, a story which also fits into this long line of "combat myths." The Babylonian Captivity and the enslavement of the Israelites by Egypt had a lot to do with importing these ideas into the Abrahamic traditions.

I feel it would be wrong to assert that Satan was originally a pagan God in any diachronic sense, but it is clear that the Christian notion of the Adversary was built on many pagan precedents. When it comes to the original Old Testament idea of H-ShTN, I would postulate that H-ShTN represents the dark side of YHWH Himself. I also believe that Typhonian Hermeticism played a part in the development of the Christian version; for Set, who by that time had already been demonized in Egypt as a "devil," and identified with the Greek monster Typhon, was also identified therein with YHWH. Consequently, Typhonian Hermeticism was like a way of connecting with YHWH through His dark side, and by viewing Him as the Adversary of the Greek and Egyptian Gods (i.e., Seth-Typhon). Set was also identified in this system with the Gnostic demiurge, which had previously been identified with the Old Testament God in Sethian Gnosticism* (and the demiurge was sometimes called Samael in that system).

Keeping all this in mind, I think it is very interesting to note that:

(1) By the time of the Greek occupation of Egypt, Jews were popularly believed to be a cult of cannibals and child-murderers who worshiped a God (Set) associated with the colors red and black, who was usually portrayed with a pair of upright rectangular ears (vaguely resembling horns), and who was believed to be the Adversary of the Gods and man, in both a religious and a political sense. And many superstitions also circulated about the Jewish Sabbath; it was identified with the malefic influence of Saturn (being that the Sabbath fell on Friday night/Saturday, the seventh day of the week) and was considered to be a night when demons and witches roamed the earth.

(2) By the time of the Roman Empire, Christians were also populalry believed to be a cult of cannibals and child-murderers, whose symbol was the fish, an animal identified with Set, and who, like the Jews, observed the Sabbath (albeit differently). And like the Jews, Christians were considered to be adversaries of society in both a religious and a political sense. Christ himself was considered an enemy of the established order.

(3) By the time of the Malleus Maleficarum, witches were also popularly believed to be a cult of cannibals and child-murderers, who worshiped a devil (Satan) associated with the colors red and black, who was usually portrayed with horns, and who was believed to be the Adversary of God and man, in both a religious and a political sense. Witches were also populalry believed to observe "the Witches' Sabbath," a night when demons and witches would roam the earth.

It's actually kind of spooky when I think about it.


It's very difficult for me to view a completely good and then a completely evil god. I think there is a mixture in all of us and even my own gods. That's why it's so hard for me to say that Satan is a god. If I were to agree that he is one, I would really have to work to define how I view him. Although it is most popular to believe that Satan is completely evil among Christians and Muslims, there actually have been a few Christians and Muslims in history who defended him. The Christian theologian Origen once wrote of the possibility that perhaps some day, even Satan might be saved and become reconciled with God. And the Sufi mystic Al-Hallaj was the first of many Sufis, to my knowledge at least, who suggested that the true reason for Satan's refusal to prostrate himself before Adam, according to Allah's commandment, had nothing to do with thinking himself to be "better" than Adam, but was instead an act of refusal to worship anyone or anything but Allah Himself. From what I understand, it is not unusal for Satan to be credited as the "first monotheist" among Sufis.

______________________
*Not to be confused with Setianity.

[David19]

I hope not! :)

Don't worry, it won't be, I just thought people might get tired of my posts in this forum, one after the other :).



Satan originates from the Old Testament H-ShTN, an adversarial angel whose title (not a name) means "accuser." Originally the word was used to describe anything that could be construed as an "adversary," including YHWH Himself at times. In the book of Job, H-ShTN is not the enemy of YHWH, but a member of the company of heaven whose job is to test the faith of YHWH's followers (in this case, Job). The idea of an angel who is actually the enemy of YHWH didn't come about until Second Temple-era Judaism, and originally, this angel was identified variously as Semiaza, Azazel, Samael, or Belial. The title H-ShTN did not become a proper name for the Adversary ("Satan") until shortly before the time of Christ. And by that time, Satan had already acquired many features from previous Adversary figures that appeared in pagan religions, such as Ahriman in Zoroastrianism. The book of Revelation's description of Satan as a "dragon" is part of a long line of Middle Eastern "combat myths," in which a mighty warrior God (e.g., Marduk, Ba'al, Set) battles and eventually destroys a dragon or giant snake of chaos (e.g., Tiamat, Ba'al's Dragon, Apep). Even before the rise of Satan in Abrahamic religion, YHWH was already believed by Jews to have battled Leviathan, a story which also fits into this long line of "combat myths." The Babylonian Captivity and the enslavement of the Israelites by Egypt had a lot to do with importing these ideas into the Abrahamic traditions.

I feel it would be wrong to assert that Satan was originally a pagan God in any diachronic sense, but it is clear that the Christian notion of the Adversary was built on many pagan precedents. When it comes to the original Old Testament idea of H-ShTN, I would postulate that H-ShTN represents the dark side of YHWH Himself. I also believe that Typhonian Hermeticism played a part in the development of the Christian version; for Set, who by that time had already been demonized in Egypt as a "devil," and identified with the Greek monster Typhon, was also identified therein with YHWH. Consequently, Typhonian Hermeticism was like a way of connecting with YHWH through His dark side, and by viewing Him as the Adversary of the Greek and Egyptian Gods (i.e., Seth-Typhon). Set was also identified in this system with the Gnostic demiurge, which had previously been identified with the Old Testament God in Sethian Gnosticism* (and the demiurge was sometimes called Samael in that system).

Keeping all this in mind, I think it is very interesting to note that:

(1) By the time of the Greek occupation of Egypt, Jews were popularly believed to be a cult of cannibals and child-murderers who worshiped a God (Set) associated with the colors red and black, who was usually portrayed with a pair of upright rectangular ears (vaguely resembling horns), and who was believed to be the Adversary of the Gods and man, in both a religious and a political sense. And many superstitions also circulated about the Jewish Sabbath; it was identified with the malefic influence of Saturn (being that the Sabbath fell on Friday night/Saturday, the seventh day of the week) and was considered to be a night when demons and witches roamed the earth.

(2) By the time of the Roman Empire, Christians were also populalry believed to be a cult of cannibals and child-murderers, whose symbol was the fish, an animal identified with Set, and who, like the Jews, observed the Sabbath (albeit differently). And like the Jews, Christians were considered to be adversaries of society in both a religious and a political sense. Christ himself was considered an enemy of the established order.

(3) By the time of the Malleus Maleficarum, witches were also popularly believed to be a cult of cannibals and child-murderers, who worshiped a devil (Satan) associated with the colors red and black, who was usually portrayed with horns, and who was believed to be the Adversary of God and man, in both a religious and a political sense. Witches were also populalry believed to observe "the Witches' Sabbath," a night when demons and witches would roam the earth.

It's actually kind of spooky when I think about it.

Although it is most popular to believe that Satan is completely evil among Christians and Muslims, there actually have been a few Christians and Muslims in history who defended him. The Christian theologian Origen once wrote of the possibility that perhaps some day, even Satan might be saved and become reconciled with God. And the Sufi mystic Al-Hallaj was the first of many Sufis, to my knowledge at least, who suggested that the true reason for Satan's refusal to prostrate himself before Adam, according to Allah's commandment, had nothing to do with thinking himself to be "better" than Adam, but was instead an act of refusal to worship anyone or anything but Allah Himself. From what I understand, it is not unusal for Satan to be credited as the "first monotheist" among Sufis.

______________________
*Not to be confused with Setianity.

Very cool post, and I think I remember reading that about Sufi's and Satan, and I knew about Origen before, I think that's quite cool that he thought even Satan and demons could be saved. I also don't believe Satan is just demonized version of a pagan nature God, I mean, yes, some Christians did demonize pagan Gods (and some ancient "pagans" did demonize the Jewish God, and also the Christians, so, they weren't exactly "tolerant" either, despite the myth). I, personally, believe Satan may have had his prototypes in previous similar beings (Set, Apep, Ahriman, etc), but, he, himself, is a different being. I didn't knew the Jewish Sabbath was demonized in the ancient world, although that would make sense, I'd guess Jews can't get a break in any era.

[David19]

A very interesting question and I'm going to type my thoughts out as I'm discovering them, because I've never actually thought of it.

I believe in the Christian god, but I don't worship or follow him in any manner. I feel like because I have that belief, I can't really go and say that Satan doesn't exist.

On the other hand, I wonder if Satan was taken from a Pagan nature god and changed into this evil, antagonist of YHWH, or whatever else you call the Christian god. I guess the best way to describe this belief is that he is a thought-form, if you're familiar with the term.

It's very difficult for me to view a completely good and then a completely evil god. I think there is a mixture in all of us and even my own gods. That's why it's so hard for me to say that Satan is a god. If I were to agree that he is one, I would really have to work to define how I view him.

It's really just easier to say I don't believe in his existence, but that's just kind of avoiding the subject and really does me no good. :cutie:

Hope this makes sense! I think it's a very intriguing question and can't wait to hear others opinions because I too am rather fascinated with Christian beliefs, even though I left that faith.

For myself, I can believe in evil beings, 'cause, there are evil humans, with little or no good in them (for example, some sociopaths, pediphiles, rapists, the Nazi's, etc). I'm not sure if Satan is completely evil, I like Origen's view that, maybe, even Satan and demons can repent and ascend (as opposed to Falling). Also, I'm glad I'm not the only one who's interested in Christian beliefs :).


Satan, traditionally and in my opinion, is the most beautiful of all angels. The strongest, the most powerful, the most charming, seductive and brilliant of all angels. But he is not God.

And that is what evil is: everything seductive that is not God. It's always the next best thing but it isn't God. It's awesome and great, and oh-my-god-that-feels-so-good but in the end, it doesn't measure up to the greatest: God.

I feel there is a commandment, reverberating all throughout the Bible, to worship God alone. God Himself tells us, "I Am the Best. I made you to deserve the Best. You deserve Me and I Am the Best for you and you must not settle for anything less. I Am your God, I Am the God of Israel and I will do this for you and this for you and that for you and I will do everything for you because I Am The Best and you will only be happy in Me." It's His standard: to be at peace in Him.

Satan's pride is what made him fall for refusing to put God/The Best above his own beauty, strength, power, charm, seductiveness and brilliance. And when we put the beauty, strength, power, charm, seductiveness and brilliance of Satan above God, we're not living up to His standard.

Thanks for another great post, that's quite a lot to think about :).

[ninurta2008]

I think that it depends on which satan you are talking about. The christian, muslim or jewish satan.

If you believe in the jewish satan being real, then he really isn't god's adversary, but a good angel who tempts and tests people to point out their flaws. Or to expose them and to show how hard they are trying to be righteous.

The Christo-Islamic Satan is the enemy of god, a fallen angel. I am not too informed on the muslim interpretation of him, but the christian one is the enemy of god who is leading his armies against God and Jesus. Kinda like Ormazd and Ahriman.

[Lahmi]

Who is Satan?
The short answer is 'A Fallen Angel" :)

[aluokaloo]

i don't know anymore really.

[Nesta]

I can't say that I think about Satan in any particular way, but several years ago Satan was one of many factors which lead me to realise that I couldn't remain Catholic.

I was raised Catholic by people who tried to teach me to be frightened and wary of Satan. If I wasn't a good girl Satan would 'get me'. No matter what I was told I was never frightened at all. I learned to trust my instinct from a very early age and it always told me that I didn't have to worry.

I laugh at the thought of the reaction I'd have received if I'd actually said this to anyone at the time.

It taught me to evaluate good and evil for myself and not to believe everything I'm told.

[David19]

Who is Satan?
The short answer is 'A Fallen Angel" :)

Cool, thanks for responding, do you believe he's still active, or bound like some Christians believe (I believe the correct term is Preterism (http://www.tektonics.org/esch/pretsum.html)?), and do you think Satan can or will be destroyed permently?.


I can't say that I think about Satan in any particular way, but several years ago Satan was one of many factors which lead me to realise that I couldn't remain Catholic.

I was raised Catholic by people who tried to teach me to be frightened and wary of Satan. If I wasn't a good girl Satan would 'get me'. No matter what I was told I was never frightened at all. I learned to trust my instinct from a very early age and it always told me that I didn't have to worry.

I laugh at the thought of the reaction I'd have received if I'd actually said this to anyone at the time.

It taught me to evaluate good and evil for myself and not to believe everything I'm told.

Thanks for responding Nesta :), that sucks about how you were raised, but, at least, you now think things through for yourself, and, from what I've read, even some Evangelical Christians (like the Tektonics guy, James Patrick Holding) don't believe Satan is round every corner, like he said (he happens to believe Satan is bound, but, not every Evangelical believes that), even if Satan is out and free, he, probably, has more important things to do than go after little kids, who won't eat their vegtables, which, IMO, is very true.

[Nesta]

Thanks. It didn't really bother me much. It got me thinking for myself, like you say, so it served it's purpose. Everything happens for a reason.

[David19]

Thanks. It didn't really bother me much. It got me thinking for myself, like you say, so it served it's purpose. Everything happens for a reason.

Glad it didn't bother you :hugz: :).

[angle kitsune]

*takes deep breath* satan is the fallen angel, he was one of gods best, he was trusted with the responsiblity to test the people. his ego got big, he thought the people should fallow him and he questioned gods athority to rule. at this time he is bound to the earth and he has a limited time left. i don't feel he is the pure evil people think, rather he dosen't think god is good enough and stands up for his feelings and trys to make us see it his way. if he was evil evil why is he letting good things happen.

he will be restrained for 1,000 years so that he can not hurt us at the end of this system then be set free again to test us, at the end of his test he will be killed if we as a whole pass though some people will fail.

i will edit this to have links to the site that better explains how jehovah's witnesses view this when i get motavated to do it.