PDA

View Full Version : Is this Pantheism?



~Nixie
June 4th, 2009, 01:50 PM
...

*oonagh*
June 4th, 2009, 02:09 PM
sounds to me like you are more of an panentheist.

~Nixie
June 4th, 2009, 02:16 PM
This is true, but I group panentheism as a form of pantheism. :)

*oonagh*
June 4th, 2009, 02:26 PM
This is true, but I group panentheism as a form of pantheism. :)

i believe it is a totally separate thing.

~Nixie
June 4th, 2009, 02:30 PM
I think it has its differences, but why totally separate? I still celebrate myself and the world around me as Divine.

*oonagh*
June 4th, 2009, 02:38 PM
well...if it were the same thing, it would have the same name (just being silly).
pantheists don't see divinity as separate at all.

~Nixie
June 4th, 2009, 02:45 PM
...

*oonagh*
June 4th, 2009, 02:52 PM
Never I said it was the same thing.

Let me clarify; I don't view deity as being separate from us, everything is god, but what I call the life force is what is eternal, or comes from a more eternal force that is a part of us and yet it transcends us.

ooo...i do apologize. i thought you said that you see panentheism as a part of pantheism. i'm sure i misunderstood.

that bit about "and yet it transcends us" is why i think you are panentheist. pantheists do not believe that divinity transcends us.

this from the encyclopedia:

"While pantheism asserts that God and the universe are coextensive, panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe and that the universe is contained within God. Panentheism holds that God is the "supreme affect and effect" of the universe."

~Nixie
June 4th, 2009, 04:30 PM
:)

Eleisawolf
June 4th, 2009, 04:50 PM
Personally, I do not believe that panentheism is part of pantheism. However, neither do I feel that they are completely different systems. They are sister systems--with much in common--but unique in and of themselves.

How do others of you feel about this?

Peace

~Nixie
June 4th, 2009, 04:55 PM
Eleisawolf, when I think about it a bit more, I may agree with what you are saying-I suppose I was speaking of panentheism in the context I was understanding it. But as I said, now it sounds like I may not even be a panentheist, I'm not even sure if I'm technically considered a pantheist, according to everything I said it seems like I'm somewhere in the middle? Sorry to be so confusing.

It is an interesting thing to ponder though, I suppose it would depend on the pantheist/panentheist in question. They may or may not be very closely related or a part of each other.

LostSheep
June 4th, 2009, 04:59 PM
Interesting that you should mention the idea of the Holy Spirit. I think that's pretty close to my own idea of what the Holy Spirit is about, and also (if it isn't too presumptuous) what I think Jesus' idea of what the Holy Spirit may have been. I think I see it as the divine (whatever that may be and however you might want to think of it) as being in the world and everyone and everything in it, but also existing outside of that. I think it doesn't close the door to the idea of a "creator" God as in one who set the wheels in motion, if you like, who established the natural laws and processes, but who doesn't actually control things hands-on - that the natural energies are the way the Divine manifests itself. So I don't think it need be incompatible with Christian principles, I think that could well have been what Jesus meant by the "holy spirit", and that the Kingdom of Heaven - i.e. connection with the Divine - could be found by looking within yourself. I think I'd probably call this way of looking at things as nearer to panentheism, as not only is the Divine everywhere, but it has a seperate existence, intelligence, whatever you wnat to call it. I don't suppose that's answered any questions, or indeed is necessarily particuallry coherent, it's just a few random thoughts on the subject which your post prompted. i shall now go back to sitting quietly.

Nesta
June 4th, 2009, 05:03 PM
More specifically, I consider myself to be more of a panentheist, but I have been reevaluating some of my beliefs lately and it appears that I have some things in common with Christian belief and the concept of the Holy Spirit. This is something I posted in another thread (modified for better understanding) would you consider this to be pantheism? Does it have anything in common with any other beliefs/religions you can think of?

We are expressions of the Divine, it flows through everything, and IS everything, yet it is the Spirit in everything, physical energy is more of an expression of that Spirit, more subject to change and "imperfections" etc. It generates everything, and moves through everything, but what I currently call the "Source" does not originate in the physical universe, rather it transcends it. While I have a relationship with the world around me, and the worldwithin, this relationship connects me with the Spirit in it, or behind it, that ultimently isn't dependent on us, rather we are dependent on it. I suppose some may call it the "life force".

I still see everything as being Divine and I honor nature and the world around me. Though it is not the "physical" nature I worship, it might appear that way sometimes. I still communicate with the Sun, the Moon, the elements, plants, animals, etc...but while the physical Sun provides my physical needs and I honor it for this, it is the spirit that generates it that I am more spiritually connected to, that I feel is more eternal.

Thoughts?

Note: Please see my fourth post for elaboration




This is interesting.
I believe that to honour the spiritual nature of the world it is important to also honour the physical nature. It is a sign of my respect to physically honour nature and of course it is beneficial to nature, and to myself. I don't think I could do one without the other. They are intertwined. I actually don't see much point unless you do respect the physicality.

I can honour deity completely in a spiritual way but while I don't feel it's imperative to physically honour deity I do it out of respect and because I want to.

~Nixie
June 4th, 2009, 05:05 PM
:)

~Nixie
June 4th, 2009, 05:08 PM
This is interesting.
I believe that to honour the spiritual nature of the world it is important to also honour the physical nature. It is a sign of my respect to physically honour nature and of course it is beneficial to nature, and to myself. I don't think I could do one without the other. They are intertwined. I actually don't see much point unless you do respect the physicality.

I can honour deity completely in a spiritual way but while I don't feel it's imperative to physically honour deity I do it out of respect and because I want to.

I totally agree with this. I just like using the word honor instead of worship, usually. Both the physical and spiritual are entwined for me. As a physical being I can't have one without the other.

Nesta
June 4th, 2009, 05:09 PM
I totally agree with this. I just like using the word honor instead of worship, usually. Both the physical and spiritual are entwined for me. As a physical being I can't have one without the other.


I prefer honour too, worship doesn't feel right to me.

LostSheep
June 4th, 2009, 05:19 PM
Interesting ideas LostSheep. I should mention that my idea of God or this "source" isn't anything like the Christian God or Yahweh. The only similarity I have really found is the idea of the Holy Spirit. But even that is different, because to my understanding Christianity teaches that you have to accept the Holy Spirit into you...in Christianity the Spirit is not inherent in everything.

In my idea the Spirit is not separate from anything at all. We're not apart from it. It's in everything.

I rather suspect that the idea about having to accept it was a refinement added as the Church developed so that they were able to have some control over things. I think the way I see it is that it is, as you say, there within us all the time, but we just need to be able to recognise it, and get in tune with it... not altogether dissimilar to the Quaker view, I think. My personal view is that's what Jesus meant, that it, the "Spirit", was there all the time, and that if people listened to what he was trying to explain to them then they could get in tune with it.

~Nixie
June 4th, 2009, 05:35 PM
:)

Nesta
June 4th, 2009, 05:42 PM
Good point, although I do not know much about it. I think that there are a number of different ways to "realize" it. A person might not necessarily recognize it as God. For example, realizing it through lifes beauty, awakening it through art, dance, creativity, friendship, love, etc...

I agree. I think it's why many people see spiritualism and religion as two certain things. Others can have very similar feelings but see their spirituality as completely entwined with religion. I'm the latter and I've come to the conclusion that this is largely due to me being raised as a Catholic. So many of the aspects of attending mass and praying were not actually religious but touched me spiritually and so I've come to associate them with religion (not surprising really). I'm also constantly learning about the long term effects of my Catholic upbringing.

~Nixie
June 4th, 2009, 05:55 PM
There are also some who may not necessarily recognize it as "spiritual" at all. It becomes more of a feeling/experience, the definition does not really matter.

For me I never understood Christianity on a spiritual level until I developed my spirituality as a pagan. I think I have more in common with Christianity than previously thought, but also many differences.

TygerTyger
June 15th, 2009, 04:13 AM
I identify with much that has been said in this thread with regards to the significance of being raised a Christian and the impact that has on being a Pantheists. I see only correlations between the two and there are suggestions of Pantheistic sympathies in the Gospel of St. Thomas.

I have no proof for Godís existence, it is very much a question of faith; but I feel it. We know so little about the universe, which is not surprising considering that we can only see a tiny fragment of it, and it would be arrogant of us to presume that we have enough knowledge to reasonably assume the existence, or otherwise, of everything. Indeed, our senses are limited and we may already be looking at the proof that we so earnestly desire but yet incapable of seeing it. So much of the physical world that we take for granted today was invisible to many just a hundred years ago until science increased our perceptive ability and that improvement will continue I expect.

For my own beliefs I cannot escape the fact that everything that does exist is made from the same basic building materials. This confirms the connexion that many others claim for the basis of their Pantheism. The products of these basic building materials are so numerous and so diverse as to appear infinite. It is all a question of complexity and arrangement but nothing exists in true isolation of anything else. Where matter exists so to energy; they are inevitably linked to each other.

Life is a form of energy too but from it comes another form of energy, consciousness. How this occurs, what it is and what are the variables of consciousness are the big questions for philosophy and psychology. A question of a more spiritual nature, certainly for me as a Pantheist, is whether consciousness survives death without changing into another form of energy or simply dispersing as per the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If conscious energy could exist free of itsí original material host, the human body, then it might coalesce with other energies of the same type creating a pool of consciousness.

Considering that the universe is presumed to be around 14 billion years old there has been plenty of time for such a pool of consciousness to form. Although science tells us that energy naturally tends to diffuse from a place of concentration it also tells us that there are events going on to actually stop all energy from becoming diffused. It is possible, therefore, for conscious energy to collect and to become bonded to matter so as not to be dispersed. It is impossible for us to know at this moment in time how this might occur but the answer might be right before us, only we have not developed the means of seeing it.

Returning to the inevitable link between energy and matter it is credible to honour both as they are both the product and the expression of Existence. There is matter, there is energy and there is also consciousness, which we take to be the divine.

cesara
June 15th, 2009, 10:35 AM
I think the way I see it is that it is, as you say, there within us all the time, but we just need to be able to recognise it, and get in tune with it... not altogether dissimilar to the Quaker view, I think. My personal view is that's what Jesus meant, that it, the "Spirit", was there all the time, and that if people listened to what he was trying to explain to them then they could get in tune with it.

A very gnostic interpretation...and one that I tend to agree with.

Funny you mention the Quakers. My beliefs are extremely similar to what Nixie has expressed here -- and often, when I take these 'what religion are you' quizzes, Quaker is often very close to the top of the list. :)

cesara
June 15th, 2009, 10:45 AM
Fabulous post, TygerTyer! :thumbsup: