Why Satan?

[~Nixie]

..............

[Cunae]

Do atheists ever acknowledge a deity... even "satan?" Or is it the just the extremely narcissistic humanism [and sarcastic humor] behind LaVey's writings? Curious.

[David19]

Do atheists ever acknowledge a deity... even "satan?" Or is it the just the extremely narcissistic humanism [and sarcastic humor] behind LaVey's writings? Curious.

I think LaVeyan Satanists see Satan as a symbol for independence or something, and try to emulate that, to be free (any LaVeyan Satanists, feel free to correct me?). With LaVey's writings, anything could be true, from the accounts I've read by his daughter, Zeena Schreck, he wasn't a great guy at all.

Theistic Satanists, probably, are called to worship Satan, for a variety of reasons, some may have mystical experiences with Satan and want to worship him, some may just, in general, be attracted to him, for some or similar reasons to LaVeyan Satanists, but, more are Theistic in their beliefs, than Atheistic or symbolic. Also, there's also the general fun factor, 'cause, worshipping the Powers of Darkness, demons, and everything is probably one of the reasons there have been worshippers of them in every culture where the Prince of Darkness appeared or was created.

[Burning Angel]

I believe I remember reading that LaVey chose Satan for the "metalness" of it all, like David said - Satan is badass and evil ^^

Now as for the theistic Satanists, I can't say for sure why they chose Satan to worship, but in Chaos Magic, there's the concept of an egregore - a thoughtform (basically an idea that caught on in a magical as well as a mundane way) that multiple people believe in in some way - Satan would be a very powerful egregore, with all the religious fear and general belief instilled over the last thousand years - or more, depending on what version of Satan you mean. So I can see why Satan might have an appeal as a god - but you have to believe in egregores for this theory to have as much validity as I think it does.

I wish we had some Theistic Satanists around...it'd be cool to see their responses :)

~Jon :boing:

[David19]

I believe I remember reading that LaVey chose Satan for the "metalness" of it all, like David said - Satan is badass and evil ^^

That's definitely a major reason :). Here's also an interesting link from the Temple of Set, http://www.xeper.org/maquino/Site/Index.html it's Michael Aquino's personal page, with quite a few interesting PDF links, check out 'The Church of Satan' document, it gives a lot of detail on the Church of Satan, and it's history (and, also, it reveals that, at first, the Church did, at least amongst the Priesthood, believe in Satan and the Powers of Darkness as real beings, and then became more Atheistic/symbolic), although it's 900 pages, the Temple of Set document is quite interesting too, IMO.


Now as for the theistic Satanists, I can't say for sure why they chose Satan to worship, but in Chaos Magic, there's the concept of an egregore - a thoughtform (basically an idea that caught on in a magical as well as a mundane way) that multiple people believe in in some way - Satan would be a very powerful egregore, with all the religious fear and general belief instilled over the last thousand years - or more, depending on what version of Satan you mean. So I can see why Satan might have an appeal as a god - but you have to believe in egregores for this theory to have as much validity as I think it does.

I wish we had some Theistic Satanists around...it'd be cool to see their responses :)

~Jon :boing:

Very true, and, even if you just accept Satan as an independent being/deity, there are still some good reasons why people might worship him, for example, the potential power it could bring, and/or maybe they've had some experiences with Satan that brought them to Satanism (I think, that was the case with Diane Vera (http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/dvera/index.html)).

There used to be some Theistic Satanists around here, they may still be here, for all I know, but, I agree it'd be great to get there opinions.

[Caitlin.ann]

Please note, I am not trying to criticize and judge, I am just curious.

For the atheistic Satanists here, why do you choose to have Satan serve as your symbol? How important is Satan to you? Does it serve more as a name for a force in nature, or a name for your philosophies?

From what I have studied, much of what Lavey wrote was a reaction of sorts to the society at that time. While many of the ideas are still relevant today, I have talked to a lot of Laveyans who seem to be "stuck" in his ideas, who complain of the "sheep" and yet seem to do the same thing as the people they're criticizing. Do you feel that Laveyan Satanism will require reformation? Do you follow Laveys philosophies closely, or use them as inspiration for your own?

Also, it seems to me that Lavey used Satan mostly as a way to shock people, as a means of separation or to grab peoples attention. What are your thoughts on this? Do you feel that it's beneficial to the ideas behind Satanism? In what ways is it beneficial to you?

To theistic Satanists: What brought you to serve Satan as your deity? If you do not agree with Christian beliefs, why turn to its mythologies and not that of paganism? If you feel that Satan is older than Judaism, why still call it Satan? Do you see Satan as being one deity among many, or as a name for a much larger force/deity? How has this path been beneficial to you?

Why Satan? Why not?

Satan has stood for many things over the thousands of years of his history, and he has evolved constantly. Indeed his image is different between the Old Testament and New testament. Some of his most notable evolutionary changes took place within the dark ages and again in modern times. Satan is the adversary to God, the questioner. He is seen as the one angel, indeed Gods most beloved angel, who dared to question. For atheistic Satanists, or LaVeyan Satanists he is seen as an archetype. He embodies freedom and independence, and represents living life to the fullest instead of abstaining. He also embodies, as the adversary, one who questions. Atheistic Satanists don't necessarily believe in an afterlife but they do believe that they should fulfill all their human desires here on earth instead of abstaining to please any (imagined) god(s).

LaVey chose Satan to symbolize all of the above and also because Satan gets attention. He indeed has contributed so much to the changing face of Satan that the devil has again evolved into something very different from what he was in our parents and grand parents days.

Satan is an archetype above all else I'd say. Maybe some would say its a "force" but I would say that puts the archetype closer to on a pedestal and more closely related to divinity than it should be and than what I feel Satanists view Satan as anyways. A "force" implies supernatural, not symbolism.

Of course no one will deny that LaVey was a performer and he did a crapload to stun and shock his audience, but that was part of the appeal, in my opinion. I can relate because I'm the same type of person in a lot of ways.

I am wondering though, how are these followers you've met "sheep"? Additionally that seems so very highschool in nature to me to call people "sheep". Not that I'm not guilty of doing exactly that myself.

[Burning Angel]

Why Satan? Why not?

Satan has stood for many things over the thousands of years of his history, and he has evolved constantly. Indeed his image is different between the Old Testament and New testament. Some of his most notable evolutionary changes took place within the dark ages and again in modern times. Satan is the adversary to God, the questioner. He is seen as the one angel, indeed Gods most beloved angel, who dared to question. For atheistic Satanists, or LaVeyan Satanists he is seen as an archetype. He embodies freedom and independence, and represents living life to the fullest instead of abstaining. He also embodies, as the adversary, one who questions. Atheistic Satanists don't necessarily believe in an afterlife but they do believe that they should fulfill all their human desires here on earth instead of abstaining to please any (imagined) god(s).

LaVey chose Satan to symbolize all of the above and also because Satan gets attention. He indeed has contributed so much to the changing face of Satan that the devil has again evolved into something very different from what he was in our parents and grand parents days.

Satan is an archetype above all else I'd say. Maybe some would say its a "force" but I would say that puts the archetype closer to on a pedestal and more closely related to divinity than it should be and than what I feel Satanists view Satan as anyways. A "force" implies supernatural, not symbolism.

Of course no one will deny that LaVey was a performer and he did a crapload to stun and shock his audience, but that was part of the appeal, in my opinion. I can relate because I'm the same type of person in a lot of ways.

I am wondering though, how are these followers you've met "sheep"? Additionally that seems so very highschool in nature to me to call people "sheep". Not that I'm not guilty of doing exactly that myself.

I believe she's actually referring to LaVeyan terminology that rubbed off onto high school culture :P

Good point about Satan representing so many things - but I think all of those archetypes found a part in LaVey's Satan. It's kind of a summation...the rebel, the heavy metal monster, the symbol of evil - a nice, neat package with all that's good (and metal) about Satan to worship :)

~Jon :jon:

[Philosophia]

From here (http://www.satanservice.org/theory/faq2.txt):


"We take the name Satan in concept only. Any other connection is thrust upon us by anxious, ignorant, and/or misinformed people. The archetype itself, by whatever name is appropriate, is far older than Xtianity or Judaism, and it was these religions that, in order to gain a foothold in the world, decided to destroy and bastardize the "pagan gods." Satan has generally been the character who has challenged sterile thought, encouraged indulgence, rebelled against slavery, and truly represented human nature and all that the mundane world offers. By extension, instead of worshiping Satan, we emulate him. The Xtian bible was probably one of the greatest pieces of propaganda (with Mein Kampf running a close second) in world history but, quite frankly, a scientifically, philosophically, and technologically advanced civilization should logically cease to have a need for such outmoded parables and slave ethics. But, seeing as insecurity never goes out of style, those in need seek their babysitters in whatever avenue is acceptable; in LaVey's words, a "privileged lie." Many Satanists also view the Xtian bible as examples of mankind's hypocrisy, incompetence, and spinelessness. Jesus Christ is the paradigm for these qualities. How can anyone with human insight and reasonable logic skills accept the phrase "the meek shall inherit the Earth" without laughing? History certainly doesn't support this assertion.

From here (http://www.satanservice.org/theory/faq4.txt):


2. It is important to realize that the Satan that they recognize has few if any points of similarity with the Christian concept of Satan. The Satanists' concept of Satan is pre-Christian, and derived from the Pagan image of power, virility, sexuality and sensuality. To most Satanists, Satan is a force of nature, not a living quasi-deity. Their Satan has nothing to do with Hell, demons, pitchforks and profound evil. They have occasionally engaged in a Black Mass for publicity purposes, in which the Roman Catholic Mass is ridiculed. But, otherwise, their rituals have no connection to Christian rituals.

[Infinite Grey]

Please note, I am not trying to criticize and judge, I am just curious.

For the atheistic Satanists here, why do you choose to have Satan serve as your symbol? How important is Satan to you? Does it serve more as a name for a force in nature, or a name for your philosophies?

From what I have studied, much of what Lavey wrote was a reaction of sorts to the society at that time. While many of the ideas are still relevant today, I have talked to a lot of Laveyans who seem to be "stuck" in his ideas, who complain of the "sheep" and yet seem to do the same thing as the people they're criticizing. Do you feel that Laveyan Satanism will require reformation? Do you follow Laveys philosophies closely, or use them as inspiration for your own?

Also, it seems to me that Lavey used Satan mostly as a way to shock people, as a means of separation or to grab peoples attention. What are your thoughts on this? Do you feel that it's beneficial to the ideas behind Satanism? In what ways is it beneficial to you?

To theistic Satanists: What brought you to serve Satan as your deity? If you do not agree with Christian beliefs, why turn to its mythologies and not that of paganism? If you feel that Satan is older than Judaism, why still call it Satan? Do you see Satan as being one deity among many, or as a name for a much larger force/deity? How has this path been beneficial to you?

I admit it, Satanists tend to annoy me - like many of the nonconformists groups and philosophies. It is ironically a conformist action to wear you unconventionality as a badge of pride rather than simply a state of being.

Why satan? Well I can't really add anything further to what has been already said.


Do atheists ever acknowledge a deity... even "satan?" Or is it the just the extremely narcissistic humanism [and sarcastic humor] behind LaVey's writings? Curious.

When are you going to be bothered enough to learn what Humanism and Atheism really are, or will you insist on clinging to your strawman interpretations that you garnered for who knows where.

[blocka]

Yeah I cant say it much better than what SacredSin has done. For me personally Satan represented a choice. He was a symbol or a icon that unlocked a new world for me, freedom and independence of thought. The reason why Satan was chosen is pretty simple, hes the ultimate rebel. Back when the COS was first established it was all about rebelling against the norm - what better figurehead then the one who apparently rebelled against the shackles of god?

You do raise an intersting point about the possibility of a change in the figure head. I think the appeal of Satan - or atleast the appeal LaVey saw - has been i wont say lost but watered down over the many years. Not to say its completely gone because it isnt, I think the name has lost a lot of its "shock" impact, its no longer a taboo subject or atleast to the degree it once was.

I do believe it still has a lot of power though. The way I look at is the use of Satan was merely to blanket if you will a whole array of ideas, a powerful name to bring together the ideas of rebellion, idependence, freedom etc etc.

[Burning Angel]

Yeah I cant say it much better than what SacredSin has done. For me personally Satan represented a choice. He was a symbol or a icon that unlocked a new world for me, freedom and independence of thought. The reason why Satan was chosen is pretty simple, hes the ultimate rebel. Back when the COS was first established it was all about rebelling against the norm - what better figurehead then the one who apparently rebelled against the shackles of god?

You do raise an intersting point about the possibility of a change in the figure head. I think the appeal of Satan - or atleast the appeal LaVey saw - has been i wont say lost but watered down over the many years. Not to say its completely gone because it isnt, I think the name has lost a lot of its "shock" impact, its no longer a taboo subject or atleast to the degree it once was.

I do believe it still has a lot of power though. The way I look at is the use of Satan was merely to blanket if you will a whole array of ideas, a powerful name to bring together the ideas of rebellion, idependence, freedom etc etc.

So the name has power because of what it represents, or is it possible that there's a Magical charge in the name, above and beyond the general "Leather Rebel" concept?

Yeah....I had to go Judas Priest on ya :jon:

~Jon :boing:

[blocka]

Personally the name holds power because of what the name represents. Im currently not that educated (havent attempted a ritual yet) on the Satanic Rituals so if the name holds some sort of magical charge I am yet to feel it, but the name for me incites confidence in my day to day life and promotes a better self.

Who knows my answer might (and probally will) change once I start diving deeper.

[Burning Angel]

so if the name holds some sort of magical charge I am yet to feel it, but the name for me incites confidence in my day to day life and promotes a better self.


That's all the magic I need right there...as a chaos magic-influenced pagan I believe in egregores, though, and it seems that there's a lot of energy stored in the name of Satan. My evangelical Christian parents were right...Omgz! :boing:

~Jon :jon:

[Torey]

To theistic Satanists: What brought you to serve Satan as your deity?

I have always felt 'out of place' amongst Wiccans/Neo-Pagans in general, I never had a bond with a deity. I took up Shamanism and had an encounter with the deity, Nergal. Through Nergal, I was led to Satan.


If you do not agree with Christian beliefs, why turn to its mythologies and not that of paganism?Christian mythology is allegorical in my belief. It is a patchwork of borrowings from much older sources. There are few, if any, 'oringinal' mythologies in the world. One can freely pick and choose what to believe.


If you feel that Satan is older than Judaism, why still call it Satan? Because 'Satan' is the only name I identify with Him with 100% certainty. I cannot be 100% certain that Satan is the same deity as Enki or Ningishzidda. Why call Him by a name that I am unsure is His? The name 'Satan' also suggests 'accuser' and 'adversary'. These qualities relate to His lessons - taking nothing at face value, throwing off the yoke of religious oppression - opposing the status quo. These are my personal reasons.


Do you see Satan as being one deity among many, or as a name for a much larger force/deity?I see Satan as one of many Underworld gods in my cosmology.


How has this path been beneficial to you?This path has given me a renewed sense of self and a boost in my self-confidence. It has also taught me to trust in my own judgment and, as aforementioned, to take nothing at face value.