Rant

[AradiaSupernova]

hi all.

I have a question. What is it with ppl feeling the need to mention age as if it has something to do with working knowledge of the craft? My Dad told me that in Louisianna, 8 year olds teach adults about voodoo because they know more about it than the adults do. How is anything else different? If you study, make an opinion, practice, study, do everything else we tell people to do when deciding to work with the many paths of paganism, does age really make that big of a difference? My favorite is when people say "so and so is only*insert age*. That says it all. Teenage nutcases" Oooooooh really? :mad: :mad: :mad: One of the many things that boils my blood. Age doesn't=wisdom people. Wisdom=experiences. :mad: :mad: :mad:


Sorry. Had to get that off my chest.

[st0rm]

ur right....

[Siarlas]

One of the many things that boils my blood. Age doesn't=wisdom people. Wisdom=experiences.

Most people forget this, Aradia. As far as I'm concerned, your present physical age has absolutrly nothing to do with knowledge and/or wisdom. I've known people who are physically older than me, but mentally... :: shakes her head ::

[qidrogreevat]

*knows exactly what Aradia is talking about*

I copped that in my last thread (And in it harm none), I know plenty of teens\kids who have a wider vocabulary and are just generally smarter than a lot of adults. Then again, there are more dumb teenagers than smart ones in reality.

A lot of people think that wisdom equals life experience, or age, which, as you stated, isn't true. Many things can be worked out in one's head, without needing the over acclaimed life experience. I feel the only thing that life experience gives is the absolute knowledge in how you\others will react in a certain situation, because without having been there\done that you can only theorize, which in many cases is as good as having been there.

[punkymister]

Wow, you're totally right.

It sometimes astounds me how much hypocrisy lurks around in the Pagan community. Some Pagans preach that we shouldn't be judged just because we're different. However a teen practioner of a Pagan religion gets judged by a bulk of the community as being a "fluff bunny," or just in it to be "cool." Well I must admit that there are some cases like that, but it doesn't give anyone the right to judge. A few bad apples don't ruin the whole bunch.

[Azure]

Devotion and commitment aren't limited to adults.

I think though, that our culture is such that we tend to assume that an adult has been at it longer and is more commited. Often that's true, not certainly not always. But for myself, I got interested at 12 and knew quite a bit by twenty, and it drove me crazy listening to "grown up" wannabes who didn't know what they were talking about. But now I'm almost 30, and am one of the grown ups.

You can only succeed by judging the individual who you encounter, not by lumping people together.

[Kaylara]

Actually...
I fought long and hard to try to be accepted when I was younger by the pagan community at large. And when I became legal... I tried doing what ever I could to help young pagans feel accepted and give them respect.

Most want to learn, but don't want to put forth the effort to achive the goals. They want everything handed to them, and don't want to work for it. I won't do that... I worked my ass off to get where I am today, and you're not getting a free ride on my watch...

I feel horrible saying this too... I tried so hard to help younger pagans... and I still am... But it just seems like 95% of the younger pagans that I meet are like this. I understand why the older pagans look at me like I'm a pariah until they talk to me.
I don't like to generalize, and I know that I am right now... I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt... But I've been proven wrong more times than I've been proven correct.

[Gwion]

You are absolutely right. I was reading Tarot one Samhain at a gathering of about 100 pagans. I shared a pavillion with a 14 year old Houdon priestess, a very Irish looking lass, but with long blonde, beaded cornrows. She had a large amphora-like, ruddy clay vase, with antlers, spears, and other strange implements arranged like a voodoo bouquet. Her querant would ask a question, then she would start rocking back and forth on her knees before the fetish; she took a swig of rum in her mouth and sprayed it all over the fetish. Then she would take these two round, smooth stones, about 5" across each, and toss them. One side of each was white, and the other black. From the way they came up, she would divine the answer to the question. I looked at my Tarot deck and felt like a rank amateur next to this girl. For all I could tell, she was being possessed by the Loas right there. I was dying to get a reading myself, but she left before my shift was done. That was a night of a thousand stories...anyway, my point is, I really felt myself in the presence of power, and I felt like I was taking Darshan of some sort just being that close to her and soaking up the glamour.

[Haedis]

I agree that much of the time teen Pagans get what they deserve, and that SOME bias is almost inevitable considering this...but since teen Pagans are expected (and rightly so) to work very hard to be sincere Pagans...the least that the adult Pagans can do is work hard at dispelling those biases before they become too deeply rooted.

It sickens me that sometimes people use age as ammunition in making a case against someone that they dont agree with. If you (general "you") think what they say or do is wrong or immature you should be able to make your case without having to mention their age into the equation. Would anyone here tolerate people saying "well she's an Asatruar, after all." when disputing what someone said?

But then again for every adult Pagan who acts in that way there are many more who should be congratulated for having so much patience and understanding in helping out us young Pagans.

[FlamedLilly]

on one of the other threads that I post on there's a guy there who's only 19 but everyone there listens to what he has to say becuase he understands and has been there.

[earthcat]

Sometimes, it is difficult for older Pagan's to communicate easily with younger Pagans. As a teenager, I know I felt I was in control of myself, and my actions. I wouldn't listen to others, (unfortunately, I had no other Pagans around me...) and did pretty much what I wanted to do, in regards to my chosen path. I made a couple of BIG mistakes; mistakes that I pay for every day of my life.

So perhaps the biggest difference between teenage Pagans and adult Pagans, is the fact that the older Pagans have made the mistakes and suffered the consequences and wish only to prevent the younger Pagans from doing the same.

As mistakes and experiences are a big part of life's lessons; older Pagans have to chose between saying something, or keeping their mouths shut. But that's difficult to do, and this is where the 'attitude' comes in. That smug smile you see on an older Pagan's face may be that person biting their lips from the inside; that patronizing tone in their voice may be the sign of internal struggle, that condesending look may actually be sheer terror for the younger.... Or it could be a strong desire to share knowledge, but having no idea of how to go about doing so without the younger feeling his or her toes are being stepped on. I know that I, myself, have had 'that look' on my face when the younger Pagans in my life have discussed their thoughts and ideas in front of me as indecision screamed through my body, and I think, "Do I say something here, or not???" Sometimes I did, and sometimes I didn't. And, though I dislike saying it, sometimes that sour look given to a younger Pagan by an older one is just plain jealousy

A young Pagan may radiate power, may ooze self-confidence, may be extremely knowledgeable, and be utterly respected by an older Pagan; but still the fact remains that they simply haven't lived long enough to see the long-term effect of their actions. That's where 'experience' comes in....

Now, in every part of society there are some people who are disdaining, who believe themselves to be more powerful and knowledgeable, and/or are just plain arrogant. But the younger Pagans should try to give the other person the benefit of doubt, until such a time as the other person can be shown to be either truly interested and caring, or just arrogant and rude.

[Tammy Sullivan]

Spirituality is not limited by age, and neither is intelligence. That said, I feel I must say that this thread is coming across as stereotyping us crones. LOL
There are reasons that wisdom is equated with age, do you not feel that you learn and grow each year? Perhaps the proper respect is not being shown to the older pagans you feel look down on you. There are many younger people that are more learned than I when it comes to pagan issues, etc. But they cannot have the point of view that I have yet, and at 33 I still have alot of growing to do to have the point of view of one older than I.

It sometimes astounds me how much hypocrisy lurks around in the Pagan community. Some Pagans preach that we shouldn't be judged just because we're different. However a teen practioner of a Pagan religion gets judged by a bulk of the community as being a "fluff bunny," or just in it to be "cool." Well I must admit that there are some cases like that, but it doesn't give anyone the right to judge. A few bad apples don't ruin the whole bunch.

Are you not judging the bulk of the pagan community here? That seems hypocritical, just to throw your own words back at ya. :D Now don't mistake me, I'm not trying to be an ass, but if you want respect, you have to give it.

[AradiaSupernova]

Ok. Don't misunderstand me here. I agree that respect for our elders is something that we all should have. But I also agree with the fact that respect is earned. For all of us. I'm not saying "every pagan adult, respect us kids". I'm saying....if you come upon somenoe who has a valid opinion and isn't a retard when it comes to this stuff....atleast show that you understand that part of it. The same goes with kids and adults. If I find an adult I find to be particularly immature, I'm not going to show them respect at all. I don't care how old you are. But if I find someone who is reasonably smart and mature, ok. That's good. That's cool. Otherwise....no.

[Gwion]

Age does not always equal wisdom anymore than youth equals folly. If elders want the young to respect them, then they should show respect themselves. As a child, I was surrounded by alcoholics and smokers, and I realized very young that I was far wiser than those who had legal and financial control of my life.

[AradiaSupernova]

Agreed Gwion

[Tammy Sullivan]

Of course respect is a two way street, and I hope that I was not coming across as saying otherwise. I most certainly agree that there are younger people who are more adept than I, my 18 year old son being one of them. Even so, he has not had the same experiences I have yet, and as I said we all learn and grow with time.

[FlamedLilly]

I've reread this thread and thought about it, I don't necessarily think it's a much of a respect issue as it is that people want to be heard and want to have genuine credit for their own thoughts and ideas. I know, I"m in the military, in my line of work there are a lot of times when I do something and I don't get heard and I don't get credit if I do get heard. I've been told that I often come across as being disrespectful. When I explain where I'm coming from most people realize I'm not being disrespectful but protective of my own self.

[Gwion]

Who is wiser, the busy adult who strides past the lily, his mind abroil with deep learning, or the unlearned child who stops and stares at the lily because she sees the Goddess? Some of us spend a lifetime unlearning our preconceptions in order to achieve the clarity of that lost childhood state of seeing things as they are.

[Tammy Sullivan]

There is also a natural wisdom in age, one is not better than the other.

[qidrogreevat]

Of course there is a natural wisdom with age. It is as I mentioned before, life experience. However, many SMART teenagers, with some thought, can make exactly the same decisions as an adult who has life experience. This is not saying that life experience does not amount to anything, just that it is not the be all end all of intelligence.

I have lived in much the same position as Gwion, with my fatehr thinking that saying Plebisides, instead of Plebians has to do with pronunciation. I am much smarter than many of those around me, with the possible exception of my mother, and a beach bum who comes to live at our house every now and again. He is one of the most intelligent people I know, and this is compared to teachers, scientists, authors, librarians, the works. And yet he does not do anything for a living, and owns no more than one bag that is about half full. He has given me a lesson in humility.

[Tammy Sullivan]

I have lived in that position as well, or close to it, and I don't see how that is relevant here. What I am saying is regardless of the fact that you may make the same decision as an adult, you still will not see it the same way. There simply is not a substitute for life experience. As I said, do you not feel that you grow more each year? Now in no way do I mean this in a derogatory manner, and there are some extremely smart kids out there, but they can no more experience life as a 50 year old as they could someone of another race. How you look at things changes with time.
Respect is earned, however respect for the elders that you are looking to teach you, there should be no doubt.

[Gwion]

>a beach bum who comes to live at our house every now and again. He is one of the most intelligent people I know, and this is compared to teachers, scientists, authors, librarians, the works. And yet he does not do anything for a living, and owns no more than one bag that is about half full.<

I think the point being made here is that this man lives a very unconventional lifestyle that many parents take exception with; but qidrogreevat recognizes sees through his appearance and finds wisdom. Odin is famous for appearing as a wandering beggar, testing

I believe in reincarnation, so I know that some souls are quite ancient, and when they are born, they bring that wisdom with them. It is a special milestone in the evolution of a soul when the memory of past lives is not lost, but retained in full consciousness. On the other hand, souls that are, uh, "newly human"...dont' always fare well the first time around they are required to act human, and they may not become wiser with experience. If I had respected my elders without question, I might now be a Southern Baptist (shudder). Sometimes it is necesary for youth to rebel against ideas and choices that their parents hold dear, but which their children know to be wrong; otherwise I might now be an alcoholic smoker (double shudder), or worse, a Republican.

[Tammy Sullivan]

*sigh*
I think you are missing my point, Gwion. I am saying that elder pagans whom you are looking to teach you , should be shown respect yes, blind faith, no.

I am confused as to when and how parents ever came into this.

Old souls are still born needing diapers, I just want to point that out.;)

[earthcat]

Originally posted by Greta
....What I am saying is regardless of the fact that you may make the same decision as an adult, you still will not see it the same way. There simply is not a substitute for life experience. As I said, do you not feel that you grow more each year? Now in no way do I mean this in a derogatory manner, and there are some extremely smart kids out there, but they can no more experience life as a 50 year old as they could someone of another race. How you look at things changes with time......

I'm backing this statement 100%. At the age of 43, I can look back on my life so far, see the choices I've made along the way, and realize that some were very bad, and some were darn good ones. I can say I'm proud of those good decisions, and I can say I've learned from the bad ones. But, as Greta said, the majority of those decisions would have been made for different reasons, or ended up being different decisions altogether, if I had the knowledge and experiences that I have at this time in my life.

As I said before, yes, you younger Pagans often seem to be 'disrespected'. But the disrespect you feel towards you is often not what you think it is. I admire & respect you all for finding your paths, and for the knowledge you are working hard to acquire. I admire & respect your power and self-confidence. And I wish you success in your endeavors. But you cannot discount experience, and I know that for a fact because, simply put, I learned it from experience.

[BloodCrow]

I can understand somewhat on both sides. Maturity in some cases may come with age , but not in all cases. I think though that when teens want to practice the craft , and cant find a coven that will alow them to join because of age , they are quite discouraged . I think covens should start more teen outreach groups.