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View Full Version : Sarcasm v. Belief...what is up with this?



*oonagh*
June 10th, 2009, 09:07 AM
This was posted on another forum...sarcastically:

"You're supposed to be all accepting. No belief is wrong, you know - and in my reality there is no such thing as fact.

So there!"

it is part of a thread aimed at promoting, basically, non-pc behavior in order to futher "intellectual" interaction on the forum in order for people to...i guess...learn...which is fine with me. it's not my forum...just one i used to really enjoy.

my first problem with this, obviously, is that i think that intelligent interaciton can take place without individuals being overbearing, snide and/or nasty.

my second problem with this statement is:

i think we *should* be accepting.
since, as a pantheist, i believe that all gods are one i can't see where any belief is *wrong* (and...who is to be the one to put themselves above all others and say "oops...you are not worshiping correctly"?).
*fact* changes every single day. one day we "know as fact" one thing only to find out the next day that science has uncovered something else which makes that "fact" not longer valid.

thoughts?

brymble
June 10th, 2009, 09:24 AM
I would say that this individual is a rude, smug, self-righteous pseudo-intellectual jerk trying to make himself feel clever by acting like an ass, and not worth the attention he's acting out to get.

If he's such an intellectual, why does he have to resort to snide remarks and petty, insulting, counter-productive behavior?

Lunacie
June 10th, 2009, 10:25 AM
Well, often it's the Pagans who are promoting the idea that we are "all accepting" and "tolerant." Uh, nope. We're like any other bunch of people that is grouped together by a single label, we are varied and different and not all the same. Some of us are more accepting of different beliefs and different possibilities, and some are more skeptical even to demanding proof.

Another difference is that some people can manage to be critical without insulting the other poster, while others think that is "sugar coating the truth" or "kissing up" and basically being insincere. I believe there is something in the middle of those where we can be blunt and honest without being insulting, snide or sarcastic.

Just my thoughts and personal opinions, for what they're worth. :smileroll

green aventurine
June 10th, 2009, 11:54 AM
my first problem with this, obviously, is that i think that intelligent interaciton can take place without individuals being overbearing, snide and/or nasty.




Another difference is that some people can manage to be critical without insulting the other poster, while others think that is "sugar coating the truth" or "kissing up" and basically being insincere. I believe there is something in the middle of those where we can be blunt and honest without being insulting, snide or sarcastic.

I agree with both of these.



If he's such an intellectual, why does he have to resort to snide remarks and petty, insulting, counter-productive behavior?

I agree with this also. The sad thing is, this kind of behaviour sometimes occurs even in professional academic contexts like interviews/discussions between philosophers or philosophical conferences where these people are supposedly the peak of cool intellectual rational thinkers etc


Unless this person was having a particularly bad day, or talking to somebody they clashed with badly or a troll etc, it's not really the way forward for me, personally, to behave like that. I would also say, to me, it's usually a sign that the person has a weak argument if they have to constantly resort to such tactics.

Astara Seague
June 10th, 2009, 11:57 AM
I agree with both of these.



I agree with this also. The sad thing is, this kind of behaviour sometimes occurs even in professional academic contexts like interviews/discussions between philosophers or philosophical conferences where these people are supposedly the peak of cool intellectual rational thinkers etc


Unless this person was having a particularly bad day, or talking to somebody they clashed with badly or a troll etc, it's not really the way forward for me, personally, to behave like that. I would also say, to me, it's usually a sign that the person has a weak argument if they have to constantly resort to such tactics.

:thumbsup:

*oonagh*
June 10th, 2009, 12:08 PM
Another difference is that some people can manage to be critical without insulting the other poster, while others think that is "sugar coating the truth" or "kissing up" and basically being insincere. I believe there is something in the middle of those where we can be blunt and honest without being insulting, snide or sarcastic.


good point. i never thought that someone would think that being polite (in one person's point of view) is the same as being insincere. that makes a lot of sense.

*oonagh*
June 10th, 2009, 12:15 PM
Unless this person was having a particularly bad day, or talking to somebody they clashed with badly or a troll etc, it's not really the way forward for me, personally, to behave like that. I would also say, to me, it's usually a sign that the person has a weak argument if they have to constantly resort to such tactics.

i tend to think this way too. see, i have a brother who is scary brilliant (i'm not just saying that either) and he is *never* caustic when teaching the rest of us (because he is basically teaching everyone everything all the time) or disproving a point. i have *deep* respect for him both for his intelligence and for his calm patience in the face of opposition.

i have another brother who is also *really* smart (by the time my parents had me...all the good genetics were taken!). but, he is very contentious. i notice that people tend to just not listen to him after a few moments because he *is* so...um...rough. he may be 100% right, but the way he presents his evidence, etc. is just too much for people. mind you, he has a heart the size of texas.

and, i just think that on a forum especially, it's really important to extend every courtesy and maybe even more patience than usual because a lot of people online don't know the other person in real life.

Bronach Druid
June 10th, 2009, 12:20 PM
Another difference is that some people can manage to be critical without insulting the other poster, while others think that is "sugar coating the truth" or "kissing up" and basically being insincere. I believe there is something in the middle of those where we can be blunt and honest without being insulting, snide or sarcastic.

Just my thoughts and personal opinions, for what they're worth. :smileroll

I agree and but I think that works both ways. In some cases, especially online, there becomes an issue on how a statement is interpreted by the reader. Some people are more defensive or sensitive then others. A statement or question may come off as rude, or disrespectful to some people even if that wasn't the poster's intent.

sleepycat
June 10th, 2009, 12:42 PM
This was posted on another forum...sarcastically:

"You're supposed to be all accepting. No belief is wrong, you know - and in my reality there is no such thing as fact.

So there!"

it is part of a thread aimed at promoting, basically, non-pc behavior in order to futher "intellectual" interaction on the forum in order for people to...i guess...learn...which is fine with me. it's not my forum...just one i used to really enjoy.

my first problem with this, obviously, is that i think that intelligent interaciton can take place without individuals being overbearing, snide and/or nasty.

my second problem with this statement is:

i think we *should* be accepting.
since, as a pantheist, i believe that all gods are one i can't see where any belief is *wrong* (and...who is to be the one to put themselves above all others and say "oops...you are not worshiping correctly"?).
*fact* changes every single day. one day we "know as fact" one thing only to find out the next day that science has uncovered something else which makes that "fact" not longer valid.

thoughts?


My thoughts per your request:
(As I have no idea what forum this came from, or the context of the quote you posted, I'm going to be very general in my answers.)
1] The " so there " strikes me as very childish, and I have trouble picturing anyone that would use that phrase in any but a joking manner as being intelligent.
2] I'm as NPC as you can get, but I'm seldom rude. I do not put up with stupidity, but I will try to correct ignorance. HOWEVER, there are those who will mistake kindness for weakness, and suffer accordingly.
3] If someone posts they are worshiping, say, Sehkmet, as a forest deity, I have no problem in NOT accepting that belief and telling the person to go do some research.
4] Sarcasm is very difficult to convey on a board, without labeling it as such.
5] Facts do not change. Theories change. The problem is that what most people think are facts are opinions and theories.

Caitlin.ann
June 10th, 2009, 12:43 PM
Sometimes I come off as a total bitch and sometimes I really am being one but for the most part I'm simply being blunt and thats taken for me being mean.

Shawn Blackwolf
June 10th, 2009, 12:52 PM
Well , Sleepycat , my friend , this is where I disagree...

I am one who does not believe in "facts"...

A "fact" , as stated , is an "absolute"...

And I do not believe anything is "absolute"...

Everything is an experiment in the moment...IMO...






Facts do not change. Theories change. The problem is that what most people think are facts are opinions and theories.

Nicholas
June 10th, 2009, 01:02 PM
I think most people are wrong, especially when it comes to matters spirituality and faith. Do I preach it? Nope, do I complain about it? sometimes.

However I do respect ones right to be ignorant. ;)

sleepycat
June 10th, 2009, 01:02 PM
And I, Shawn, am purr-fectly content to acknowledge your beliefs and your right to hold them as such.

Shawn Blackwolf
June 10th, 2009, 01:04 PM
Thank you...

Purrs are sooo soothing...

( just got adopted by a neighbor cat )


And I am purr-fectly content to acknowledge your beliefs and your right to hold them as such.

Shawn Blackwolf
June 10th, 2009, 01:08 PM
Yes...some are ignorant of spiritual dimensions ,
some of physical , in the eyes of the beholder...

However , just because one ignores ants , does
not make them go away...:smileroll



However I do respect ones right to be ignorant. ;)

Nicholas
June 10th, 2009, 01:09 PM
Yes...some are ignorant of spiritual dimensions ,
some of physical , in the eyes of the beholder...

However , just because one ignores ants , does
not make them go away...:smileroll

Stepping on them now and then does make one feel better though.

Shawn Blackwolf
June 10th, 2009, 01:12 PM
Said one ant to the other :

"I think that was a Bigfoot sighting"


Stepping on them now and then does make one feel better though.

*oonagh*
June 10th, 2009, 01:26 PM
A statement or question may come off as rude, or disrespectful to some people even if that wasn't the poster's intent.

this, i suppose, is why i think that maybe it's important to be extra sensitive towards others online and, maybe, to err on the side of being "too polite"...not knowing the other person.

*oonagh*
June 10th, 2009, 01:31 PM
My thoughts per your request:
(As I have no idea what forum this came from, or the context of the quote you posted, I'm going to be very general in my answers.)



(the forum from where this came isn't important. it is a general question so this is a great reply. thank you.)

Shawn Blackwolf
June 10th, 2009, 01:35 PM
Or...at the least , to learn from the experience...

Both parties to the incident...to see both sides ,
and proceed from that understanding , in the
future...

For one to realize some are more sensitive , and
respond in a way less likely to hurt , with that
new information...

And the other party to realize some people are
more rough on the exterior...and do not mind
the same...:thumbsup:


this, i suppose, is why i think that maybe it's important to be extra sensitive towards others online and, maybe, to err on the side of being "too polite"...not knowing the other person.

Twinkle
June 10th, 2009, 02:27 PM
I was the person who posted it, and I was being sarcastic.

It was also taken out of context - so I'll explain myself thoroughly in the hopes that I'll be understood a bit better. :)

This is what I posted, on "the other forum" so hopefully it will be placed in better perspective:

If you have a belief that is unverified - and you just "feel it". I can't fault you or question your feelings.

If you are basing your belief on incorrect historical information, or laying claim to something cultural when it is not - then yes, your belief is incorrect (if in fact it is incorrect).

I often use my purple chipmunk example. If you believe in and want to worship purple chipmunks, more power to you. If you are claiming purple chipmunks were worshipped by the Ancient Greeks in Athens, and therefore it has a cultural and historical base, then I'll correct you.

People should absolutely believe what they want to - but if they are basing that belief on misinformation, then I think we have a responsibility to give correct information. People often mistake this correction for bashing their beliefs. It's simply not the case.

A lot of the problems come up because people simply don't want to be corrected or admit that they don't know as much as they think they do. Questioning your beliefs when those beliefs are challenged can be too much for some people - because they need to identify with a certain label.

I'm not immune. I hate being corrected....but it is absolutely necessary to grow in spirituality and belief.

Having said all that - If someone wants to worship purple chipmunks they certainly can. I also have the right to think it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Tolerance goes both ways.

Here is the link to the *entire* thread.

http://www.mind-n-magick.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1243697068/46#46

And oonagh - if you're going to quote me out of context I would ask that you link me so that people can get the whole picture and not just your biased opinion.

Caitlin.ann
June 10th, 2009, 02:28 PM
Thanks for posting, Twinkle and I'm glad you came here to straighten things out. It really irritates me that people would love to drag you through the mud for no reason.:grrrrr:

Caitlin.ann
June 10th, 2009, 02:32 PM
Isn't there a rule about bringing community drama over to here? Anything about dragging other members through the mud here because one was offended by what they said elsewhere?

Shawn Blackwolf
June 10th, 2009, 02:37 PM
I think the way it was phrased , as Oonagh stated here ,
without naming a forum , or member...is allowed...

However , I could be incorrect on that...

I believe it is when a direct forum , or member is mentioned ,
that is the boundary area...:uhhuhuh:


(the forum from where this came isn't important. it is a general question so this is a great reply. thank you.)

KC Destroyer of Worlds
June 10th, 2009, 02:51 PM
I'm not sure what the intent of the OP was but after reading the thread it seems like this is more of a "report button" issue. I understand the question, but it seems a bit loaded...

Lunacie
June 10th, 2009, 03:07 PM
good point. i never thought that someone would think that being polite (in one person's point of view) is the same as being insincere. that makes a lot of sense.

Although it didn't seem to apply in this situation, some people also think that being polite is the same as being weak.

GEBS
June 10th, 2009, 03:16 PM
Thread Closed.

We do not allow issues issues from other forums to be posted here. Now that it is clear that the quote is from another MW member and the forum has been linked I cannot allow this to stay open. That is two reasons for possible unwanted drama.

In the future, if you wish to discuss something similar leave out the part about the other forum entirely. Just ask your question.