Runes as divination tool not Norse?

[Amethyst Rose]

I was talking to a *real* "Viking" last night, and we were discussing written language as a result of religous influence (one of my favorite topics of discussion) and he brought up the runes, as a form of written language.
I asked him about the Runes as a divination tool, and he says that that makes no sense at all, because to the Norse, time is looked at differently -- that they have no concept of future, the future doesn't exist.
So the runes were never, ever meant as a divination tool. So when did this practice start? I wonder who started it, and where the idea came from.
Ideas? Thoughts?

[Rick]

The Runes originated long before the Vikings, by at least 400 years... best evidence show that the first people to use them were the Wend (or Wendel, or Vandals), a Slavic people from eastern Europe...

You might remind your friend that Tacitus (a Roman, & no friend to the Teutonic peoples) recorded Runes being used for divination nearly 2000 years ago...

I'd be interested to know where he gets the idea that the Norse (I'm assuming he's referring to the ancients) had no concept of the future...

Respectfully, your friend is ill informed...

[Amethyst Rose]

He got the idea because he IS norse. Not just a wanna be reconstructionalist, religous type. He is genetically norse, though he doesn't follow any real "religion" he does have a necklace of Thor's hammer, simply because that's his herritage.
What he said was that the Norse didn't see time as satic, that future can't be "predicted" because it doesn't exist...it isn't written, so they wouldn't create a system to predict it.
I don't know....I only just met the guy last night, and I found what he had to say intriguing....though I'd bring it up here. :)

[Flar's Freyja]

Possibly he is referring to the Orlog, which is your fate/destiny that is already written for you, although your choices can influence it positively or negatively.

Also, there are the Norns: Urd, Verdandi and Skuld who know the past, present and future, so it doesn't make sense that there is no belief in the future. Perhaps he's just not communicating his theory effectively?

[Flar's Freyja]

Since the subject has been opened up, I thought that we could get into some of the lore relating to the runes. In Northern Mysteries and Magick, pp 7-8, Freyja Aswynn writes:

"It is recorded in the Northern mythology that the runes were given to Odin when he voluntarily sacrificed himself on the World Tree, Yggdrasil. Certain shamanic techniques were known to various primitive, heathen cultures................in which a shaman underwent a similar process in order to transcend the barriers between life and death, therefore gaining occult knowledge. It is feasible that the myth that describes Odin hanging on Yggdrasil was, in fact, referring to just such a shaman, who was probably already familiar with some of the rune-signs and who, through initiation on the Tree, attained cosmic consciousness and insight into the spiritual and esoteric qualities (italics mine) of the runes. Thus enlightened, he may have composed the twenty-four-rune futhark. This theory is all the more likely because, as later study will prove, there is a sound reason why the futhark should consist of twenty-four runes, each in its appointed place with the only exceptions being the last two runes, which may be interchanged. To alter the order or position of any of the oter runes would invalidate the entire combination of spiritual symbolism (italics mine) presented by the complete futhark."

[Storm]

Hmm. I don't know how it is possible to not believe in the future.

[Flar's Freyja]

Odin was also given the ability to commune with the dead through his shamanic death experience.

[st0rm]

Originally posted by Amethyst Rose
He got the idea because he IS norse. Not just a wanna be reconstructionalist, religous type. He is genetically norse, though he doesn't follow any real "religion" he does have a necklace of Thor's hammer, simply because that's his herritage.
What he said was that the Norse didn't see time as satic, that future can't be "predicted" because it doesn't exist...it isn't written, so they wouldn't create a system to predict it.
I don't know....I only just met the guy last night, and I found what he had to say intriguing....though I'd bring it up here. :)

Im norse too, geneticly and I live in scandinavia, that dosent mean that I have too know alot about the ways of the ancient norse...

[Flar's Freyja]

I think that Amethyst Rose was only bringing this up because she found the question of interest. It doesn't seem that it's her personal opinion. I also have a friend who was raised in the pagan tradition in Scandinavia and she is quite knowledgeable. I admire and respect her but I don't agree with everything that she says, either.

As I said above, I think that the subject is a great opportunity to introduce Norse and Rune lore, so Rick and I have discussed it and may start that topic under a separate thread rather than this one.

[Amethyst Rose]

Exactly, Freyja.
I know practically nothing about the runes, history or otherwise, so I really don't have *any* personal beliefs about them.
All I know was that when I was discussing ancient written languages with this guy, and he brought up the Norse and the runes, I said something about using the runes as a divnation tool and he was very confused about the whole idea, and tried to explain the (ancient) Norse view of the future with me. Maybe I didn't understand exactly, maybe he didn't explain well, English is a second language for him.
I just thought it was a really interesting topic, is all. :)

[Flar's Freyja]

And it was a very good question! Glad you posted it.