What's the difference between Wiccan & Druid Circle casting?

[CelticMoon11]

Blessings,

Just wondering if anyone knows the key differences between casting a circle as a wiccan, and casting a circle as a druid?

I've read the AODA circle casting and it appears there are more salutes and keeping the sword/athame sheathed are different to wicca, where people often "cut" a pentacle at the quarters for the Watchtowers.

There is also the inclusion of a chair in the circle in the AODA version and there doesn't appear to be a blessing of salt & water to cleanse the area before hand.

"Blessed be" seems to be replaced with a proclaimation of peace.

There are also 4 cauldrons on the altar in which one contains earth, water, sand & an incense stick and a candle rather than just having them appear on their own.

It also seems a boline is called a scythe or sickle, a wand is a rod, or replaced with a staff, there is a drinking horn instead of a chalice, and a piece of silver birch with bells.

Are these standard changes? Is there anything else I'm missing?

Thank you,

Celtic Moon

[skilly-nilly]

Can you add a point to what you're reading?

I googled AODA and read the FAQ but circle-casting wasn't mentioned.

That said, I belong to an ADF Grove and we don't cast circles.

I went to an OBOD ritual once and while the enactors addressed the directions they didn't 'cast' either.

So casting a circle isn't a universal requirement. We in the ADF specifically don't cast a circle to create a Magic space because we believe that all the Earth is sacred so there's no greater amount of sacredness needing to be put in to make it so.
We open a door into the OtherWorld with ritual without defining any limits to it. We also bargin with the 'Outdwellers' to create a truce for the duration of the ritual so there's no need to wall off the ritual in a circle to keep it safe.

Sometimes in personal Magical Workings I make a safe place if I'm dealing with dangerous Beings in a watch-yer-back way but without a lot of tools-- I do use a bell branch, though.

[Raven Reed]

Ah, I attend ritual with people who would lose their minds if we didn't cast a circle, but I tend to agree with your thoughts on the matter.


So casting a circle isn't a universal requirement. We in the ADF specifically don't cast a circle to create a Magic space because we believe that all the Earth is sacred so there's no greater amount of sacredness needing to be put in to make it so.
We open a door into the OtherWorld with ritual without defining any limits to it. We also bargin with the 'Outdwellers' to create a truce for the duration of the ritual so there's no need to wall off the ritual in a circle to keep it safe.

Sometimes in personal Magical Workings I make a safe place if I'm dealing with dangerous Beings in a watch-yer-back way but without a lot of tools-- I do use a bell branch, though.

[CelticMoon11]

Hmm sorry I thought it was listed on their website but it must just be in the Druidry Handbook by John Greer that he lists it under the Sun Path

[Lunacie]

Can you add a point to what you're reading?

I googled AODA and read the FAQ but circle-casting wasn't mentioned.

That said, I belong to an ADF Grove and we don't cast circles.

I went to an OBOD ritual once and while the enactors addressed the directions they didn't 'cast' either.

So casting a circle isn't a universal requirement. We in the ADF specifically don't cast a circle to create a Magic space because we believe that all the Earth is sacred so there's no greater amount of sacredness needing to be put in to make it so.
We open a door into the OtherWorld with ritual without defining any limits to it. We also bargin with the 'Outdwellers' to create a truce for the duration of the ritual so there's no need to wall off the ritual in a circle to keep it safe.

Sometimes in personal Magical Workings I make a safe place if I'm dealing with dangerous Beings in a watch-yer-back way but without a lot of tools-- I do use a bell branch, though.

I don't really know what Druids do when they gather for rituals, but I do know what Wiccans do, and why we do it.

Casting a circle is not intended to make sacred space even more sacred, it's more like recognizing that we are in a sacred space, between the worlds.

It's also like having a privacy fence around your back yard before you have special guests over for a party - so the neighbors don't sit in their back yards and watch you all evening.

And it also contains the energy that is raised during the ritual until it's time to release it to do the job it was raised to do. When one person is working alone it's simple to hold onto the energy until you're ready to send it off. With a group of people, it's not so simple.

[Saints pet]

We also bargin with the 'Outdwellers' to create a truce for the duration of the ritual so there's no need to wall off the ritual in a circle to keep it safe.



This is something I discussed with an ADF druid. I attended a ritual and they didn't really see the point with "Outdwellers".
It's like giving someone that's not exactly friendly or whatever an invitation and then saying, "Sorry, you have to stay at the door... and here's something to drink."

Sorry to go OT. I just had to say that before i forgot. lol.

[CelticMoon11]

It seems a lot easier to find Wiccan writings, circle castings etc online than it is to find anything on druidry and celtic rituals >.<

[skilly-nilly]

I don't really know what Druids do when they gather for rituals, but I do know what Wiccans do, and why we do it.

Casting a circle is not intended to make sacred space even more sacred, it's more like recognizing that we are in a sacred space, between the worlds.
.....

And it also contains the energy that is raised during the ritual until it's time to release it to do the job it was raised to do. When one person is working alone it's simple to hold onto the energy until you're ready to send it off. With a group of people, it's not so simple.



It's interesting how different the religions are.

As I see it, in Wicca the human participants are controlling what is happening and are aiming at a purpose-- "the job it was raised to do". Neither of these things is part of a Druid Ritual. We ask that the door into the Other World be opened, but it may not be. It's at the discretion of the Other World. We ask for the attention of the non-human participants, so we tend to use significant places because a) it puts us in a reverential frame of mind and b) if the Various Beings have noticed that place before They are more apt to notice it again. But we don't limit the space-- we stand in the sacredness of Nature and ask the Other Side to open the door.


Our purpose is not to raise energy but to communicate and be communicated with. We honour the Gods/ Ancestors/ Nature Spirits with our offerings and praise and ask Them to answer back, if They choose. So no containment is necessary.



This is something I discussed with an ADF druid. I attended a ritual and they didn't really see the point with "Outdwellers".
It's like giving someone that's not exactly friendly or whatever an invitation and then saying, "Sorry, you have to stay at the door... and here's something to drink."

Sorry to go OT. I just had to say that before i forgot. lol.

Without containment, anything could drop by. It would be impolite because we make specific invitations but there are impolite Beings. So we specifically dis-invite impolite Beings, but acknowledge that it's Their world as well and so we ritually offer a truce. It's archaic, but that's the mind-set of the ritual; we say that we would prefer not to be messed with and if They agree we will set up a treaty zone (our ritual space) but as a part of the treaty (to make it acceptable to Them) we give Them an offering as well. They are constrained by accepting the offering to abide by the rules of the truce-- Druidry perceives all Beings (ourselves and Them) as being bound by the same rules of personal honour.

Of course, this is my personal interpretation of ADF ritual.

[Lionne des Neiges]

In Wicca, there is a concept link to casting a circle before any magical work. It's called In Perfect Love, Perfect Trust. The circle is a protection from any bad vibes that could affect that concept. Also, Wicca is based a lot on ceremonial magic and casting the circle help to put people's mind to do magic.

I know that some druids do cast circle but it's not part of the teaching. It's something they prefer to do. My friend was using animal of power to call the quarters, like an aigle to the south, salmon to the west and so on.

[Morgaine_cla]

Greetings,

Different Druid groups do things differently. Some cast circles, some do not. Most American Druids do not cast circles. Most British Druids do, evoking certain mythical animals in association with the quarters. These animals have ancestral associations and powers and it is these connections which are being tapped in most cases. Of those that do cast circles*, some do it to raise and focus power, some to designate a space for communion, and some for all of these reasons. Again, these are generalizations; there are many variations and exceptions, but this is the general rule for Neodruids.

We (Avalon Druid Order/ADO) do cast a circle for rituals involving evocation and invocation (though not necessarily for Dreaming), but we don't call watchers or animals at the quarters. Our circle works more like an aperture on a lens that focuses the energy of everything within specifically to the ritual intention based on vibrational rates (what we call "energy signatures"). This method ensures a potent ritual; a side benefit is that the circle you cast is almost impenetrable by anything other than the beings and energies you intend -- which, if you perform ritual invocations is especially important... But that's another topic.
:)

In ADO we cast circles to raise and focus energy towards our specific ritual intention, and not to "create" sacred space, raise a wall of protection, or open a portal between worlds. For us, the worlds are not separate and all space is sacred. We are in control of preparing ourselves and setting up the ritual environment, but we do not control the deities or ancestors themselves once they've arrived. In Avalon, the Otherworld always answers. Always. The way is always open to those who have properly prepared themselves for the experience. I have never seen the Ways close to a whole circle or the deities refuse to appear and commune. Never -- whether in our circles or those of other Avalonian groups. If the circle has a strong focus you will see the deities whether they are evoked or invoked.

In ADO, the purpose of conducting a circle ritual is for healing (self, collective, land, etc.), spiritual guidance, and communion, and not for asking boons or directing/sending energy for spells. I've attended both ADF and OBOD ceremonies, as well as ceremonies by other Avalonian groups, and I can attest that each Druid "Order"** has an entirely unique, "signature" feeling to it that can be recognised even without seeing or hearing the proceedings. The energy is very distinctly "of that Order and no other". While individual Groves have different energies, to be sure, all the Groves belonging to one Order share its larger, recognisable signature energy. It's quite interesting, really. I cannot say whether this is true in Wiccan groups, as I have never been Wiccan and my only experience of Wiccan rituals is limited to Pagan Pride Day events. I could say quite a lot on this subject, but I think this addresses the main concepts under discussion here.

As for "Out-worlders", we have found it very useful to making offerings to the Unknown/Nameless Ones of the other cultures that have lived on our lands (such as Amerindian ancestors and deities). They are not Avalonians, but they do hold keys to accessing aspects of our land and they make potent allies. Because of the soul debts existing between our peoples, it also seems prudent to ask their permission and blessing before working, just as we do the Nature Spirits. They have never seemed interested in participating directly in our ceremonies, but they have observed and they have not obstructed our efforts. We make our offerings to them at a little altar outside of our ritual space and they do not seem insulted. If anything, acknowledging them brings a sense of peace and deep healing, a "complicite" that is absent when this acknowledgement is omitted.

Thanks for posting on this!

* Not everyone casts a circle by walking, drawing, "cutting/scribing", or winding it, so just because you don't see them doing it doesn't mean it isn't being done.
** We use the word Order for the sake of convenience. Not all Druid groups use the word "Order" to signify the organisation to which they belong or within which they are chartered. Some Groves are independent and are unaffiliated with any larger organisation.

[Lunacie]

Interesting to see the variations in Druidic rituals. Some are very different from Wiccan circles, some not so much.

[CelticMoon11]

Is there any theology or reasoning behind druid circles over wiccan ones?

[Lunacie]

Is there any theology or reasoning behind druid circles over wiccan ones?

The only thing I can think of would be whether one is a Druid or a Wiccan. I'd imagine a Druid would rather use a Druid-type circle over a Wiccan-type circle, and vice-versa.

[parallax]

Is there any theology or reasoning behind druid circles over wiccan ones?

That part of any liturgy is usually for the purpose of establishing the cosmology of your rite. It gives the practitioner a time and place to set their minds and works. The method used to establish cosmology usually depends on the practitioner's path and the purpose of the rite.
I need a more specific question to give a more specific answer :)

[CelticMoon11]

By that I mean the circle has a lot of meaning in Wicca, the pentacle shape the woman mysteries associated with it etc. In druidry is there a particular reasoning behind casting a circle like a legend or a cosmological perspective? I've heard the three realms be associated with 3 circles instead of one but from what I've read the Abread, Gwynffd (sp?), Ceugant theory is mostly from Iolo's works that are mostly fabricated.

[skilly-nilly]

By that I mean the circle has a lot of meaning in Wicca, the pentacle shape the woman mysteries associated with it etc. In druidry is there a particular reasoning behind casting a circle like a legend or a cosmological perspective? I've heard the three realms be associated with 3 circles instead of one but from what I've read the Abread, Gwynffd (sp?), Ceugant theory is mostly from Iolo's works that are mostly fabricated.



I had to google "Ceugant theory" and got this:

"The final, outermost circle is called Ceugant, or Infinity, or the All. This area, although a part of all the worlds and the other circles is inhabited by Great Spirit, or the All, alone."
http://www.spiritualelements.info/my-beliefs/

This is a lot more monotheistic than any Druidry I'm familiar with.

But I'm not very familiar with Welsh mythology, and both you and the site I quoted seem to be specifically citing that.

The Druids I'm familiar with are quite strongly polytheistic, and would not reference 'the All' as a Being/Deity/conscious entity.

On the other hand, circles are a naturally occurring form that have meaning/s in many cultures. The universal cross-in-a-circle is a Celtic referential symbolizing (in part, imo) the 5 directions make up the whole world. 'The whole world' or 'the whole island' or 'from horizon to horizon' is a circle, but I've never heard the 3 realms described as circular.

I think Wicca and Druidry are just different on this topic.

[CelticMoon11]

Yes I agree, they are very different Im having a hard time finding examples of druid ritual work etc to see the differences & become comfortable with it

End post due to effing annoying nose bleed....

[parallax]

Yes I agree, they are very different Im having a hard time finding examples of druid ritual work etc to see the differences & become comfortable with it

End post due to effing annoying nose bleed....


Well here: http://www.adf.org/rituals/explanations/core-order.html is ADF's Core Order of Ritual and here: http://www.adf.org/rituals/ is a directory of various different rituals. As has been mentioned, ADF liturgy is rather different from OBOD but I don't believe that OBOD liturgy is available to the general public. Here is a bit on the differences between OBOD and ADF: http://www.adf.org/about/adf-and-obod.html and a bit on the differences between ADF and Wicca: http://www.adf.org/about/druidism-wicca.html
As I'm a member of ADF and not any other Druid organization I can really only give you answers from that perspective, however, I hope that some of those links can help you out.

Also, I hope you nosebleed subsides. I am rather susceptible to them myself and find that leaning forward and pinching the bridge of my nose with a cloth has always worked best for me. Many people advise you to lean backwards but that always directs the blood down my throat and that's yucky. A little ice on the bridge of your nose can help slow the bleeding a bit, too.

[CelticMoon11]

Ty I will have a look through those links when Im not feeling like Im death warmed up. I used to get nose bleeds a lot, but then had silver nitrate (sp?) shoved up my nose by the dr... but now I'm a snuffly, hocking, spewing mess they seem to be back full strength >.<... just what I need with a sickly croupy toddler & bun in the oven.. grumble hiss spit :)

Just wanted to let you know I have read your post and I will attend to it in more detail soon...

[CelticMoon11]

I was having a read through the rituals, they are mostly developed for group grove workings. I noticed they seem to call on welsh and irish deities, do the ADF follow all Celtic deities not just one particular patheon?

So after a brief read through it seems that there are a lack of the wiccan elements earth, air, fire, water and rather a focus on the cauldron waters, fire, etc. More of a focus on offerings & a lot more poetry, singing and drumming than is usually found in wicca. It almost comes across as "formalised shamanism" although that's a contradiction in itself :), if you know what I'm getting at lol.

[skilly-nilly]

I was having a read through the rituals, they are mostly developed for group grove workings. I noticed they seem to call on welsh and irish deities, do the ADF follow all Celtic deities not just one particular patheon?

OooooOOO! **raises hand**
I know the answer to that! ADF permits/accepts/allows all Indo-European pantheons. Some groves are oriented to a particular one and some vary according to the Holy Day and who's writing the ritual. Some are quite strict about inviting 2 Deities from the same pantheon per ritual and some not so much.

So Who's being spoken to is completely up to the grove as long as They're Indo-European.



So after a brief read through it seems that there are a lack of the wiccan elements earth, air, fire, water and rather a focus on the cauldron waters, fire, etc. More of a focus on offerings & a lot more poetry, singing and drumming than is usually found in wicca. It almost comes across as "formalised shamanism" although that's a contradiction in itself :), if you know what I'm getting at lol.

That is a very perceptive comment! One thing that ADF and all Celtic ReConstructionists are strong on is that the world... universe? is made up of 3 parts, not 4. Or multiples of 3, like 9.
But never 4. Mostly this is described as 'Land, Sea, Sky' but it can also be 'Cultivated land, Forest, Sky' and 'Underworld, this world, Otherworld'.

The largest purpose of the ritual is offering and a big part of offering is offering creative work; sometimes ritual can go on and on if there are several performers.

"formalised shamanism" is a great description!! And right on the mark, because the ritual is meant to open the door to the Otherworld.

[CelticMoon11]

Haha thanks Silly Nilly :). Are you apart of the ADF? I just saw in one of the rituals they mixed up Kerridwen, Arianrhod, Bile and .... someone else lol, it took me back a bit as a lot of sites are solely you must pick one patheon, do not mix, do not blend, do not stir, do not dry clean :). Not a bad thing, it's different, accomodating and very open :).

One explanation I read was that fire, was connected more with the notion of spirit, and as such isn't a seperate element such as land, sea & sky. It was suggested that if casting a circle with the 3 elements you have Land, Sea & Sky respective of their directions in comparison where you are (the sea is to the east of me so I would have it in the east etc) and that fire should burn in the middle with the cauldron as a representation of spirit and inspiration. What do you think?

There was another suggestion that Fire could alternatively be placed in the North because it is the darkest direction where the sun does not travel, and in celtic cosmology life and the day started in darkness, and could represent the inspiration of new beginings.

An arguement for the lack of a circle is that Druids often held Groves in already sacred spaces, so there was no need except to declare peace/offerings to go about business uninterupted. What if you have yet to create a perminant sacred space? Should you then use further protection or ultimately work towards cleansing a sacred area so that it is not required?

Indeed Wicca is a new religion and that there is a lot of beliefs that are assumed from tales or guessed at in druidry, but I do not feel that discounts them as religious practices and they definately have a place in society today, if they didn't they wouldn't have taken off as they have done :)

[skilly-nilly]

Haha thanks Silly Nilly :). Are you apart of the ADF?

Yes, I'm a member of ADF but my religion is also intensely personal.


One explanation I read was that fire, was connected more with the notion of spirit, and as such isn't a seperate element such as land, sea & sky. It was suggested that if casting a circle with the 3 elements you have Land, Sea & Sky respective of their directions in comparison where you are (the sea is to the east of me so I would have it in the east etc) and that fire should burn in the middle with the cauldron as a representation of spirit and inspiration. What do you think?


I don't think of Land/Sea/Sky as elements at all, they are places and as such have everything in them. I don't think you can manipulate the Irish cosmology into a 4-Elements system; fire isn't an element for us, it's a state of inspiration.



There was another suggestion that Fire could alternatively be placed in the North because it is the darkest direction where the sun does not travel, and in celtic cosmology life and the day started in darkness, and could represent the inspiration of new beginings.

The 5 directions (the 4 cardinal directions and 'middle' or 'where I am')already have symbology as well, completely apart from Wicca.
" 'Easy to say,' said Fintan: 'Knowledge in the west, battle in the north, prosperity in the east, music in the south, kingship in the centre.' "
The Yellow Book of Lecan