Newspaper sheds really bad light on occult practices

[Kaylara]

Teens and the occult
By CINDY CLAYTON, The Virginian-Pilot
© May 14, 2001

Don Rimer and Ed Cruz recently were teaching a seminar on teens who dabble in the occult when their pagers started beeping.

A cemetery on Old Virginia Beach Boulevard had been vandalized, and police on the scene needed their expertise.

The call was familiar. Headstones were overturned. Graves had been dug up. Remains seemed to be missing. The vandals, the officers suspect, probably were teens who took bones for use in an occult ceremony or even to resell on the Internet for as much as $500.

The damage to the plots may have been done a year ago. But Rimer and Cruz, both Virginia Beach Police officers, said local investigators are receiving an increasing number of calls about young people tantalized by the occult from police who stumble on such sites, from school officials and from concerned parents.

The scope of the problem in Hampton Roads is difficult to measure, said police, who declined to give numbers. Some incidents are classified in vague terms, making the numbers misleading, they said. A grave robbery, for example, could be classified as vandalism.

Investigators and school employees who attended the seminar, hosted by the Virginia Gang Investigator's Association, said they see signs of teen behavior that indicates an interest in the occult. So they're stepping up their training.

The occult includes many religions that run the gamut, from the worship of nature to the veneration of Satan. For some young people, spell-casting is nothing more than a mysterious fad. For others, magic lends a feeling of power and acceptance. But parents should know that children who dabble in the occult may be lured into danger, experts say.

Rimer has taught his seminar, entitled ``Satanism and the Occult: The New Youth Subculture,'' across the country. He has flown to communities following teen murders, suicides and similar incidents to interview police and other officials.

Those visits, he said, have had a common theme. Adults either were unaware or denied that their teens were interested in the occult.

``Do you know how many times I have heard that?'' Rimer asked. ``And do you know how many times they were right? None.''

Amanda Henderson, 17, chuckles when people ask her if she has seen the movie ``The Craft.''

``It skews the whole thing,'' said Henderson, a Virginia Beach high school senior and Wiccan. She studies the doctrine and practice of witchcraft.

The film portrays three girls who dabble in witchcraft while struggling to fit in with their peers. They use magic to control people. And when their spells go too far, they end up hurting themselves and others.

The behavior of the girls is ludicrous, Henderson said. It bears no resemblance to what real witches believe and practice. Real power, she said, comes through self-empowerment, not through controlling others.

Still, Henderson said, she can understand their need to belong.

That's the lure of the occult, experts say. Acceptance and power are particularly sought by children who are pressured by peers or whose family lives are stressful, Rimer said.

``When you're 13 years old, you have very little personal power,'' said Drema Baker, high priestess of a local Wiccan coven.

Baker said people call her seeking information about Wicca, a pagan, nature-based religion. But she and other Wiccans can't steer teens away from dark religions that promote destructive behavior, she said. They decline to help underage teens understand the differences in pagan religions, fearing that uneducated parents might think the worst.

While the reasons teens become interested in the occult vary, some adopt occult practices merely to shock their parents, said Marcello Truzzi, professor of sociology at Eastern Michigan University. Truzzi is the director of the Center for Scientific Anomalies Research and is an author and lecturer on witchcraft, Satanism and the occult.

``We're also becoming a more secular world,'' Truzzi said. ``What else are they going to shock their parents with?''

Truzzi agrees that information on the occult is more available than ever through movies, video games, music and the Internet.

``Obviously, parents should pay attention to what their kids are doing,'' Truzzi said. ``And overreaction can be worse than not paying attention in the first place.''

In 1997, a 13-year-old Virginia Beach girl who watched ``The Craft'' began dabbling in witchcraft. Like those in the film, the girl wanted to change her looks with magic.

The teen bought candles and read books. She wrote quotes from the film in a diary-like notebook called a ``book of shadows.'' She put together a makeshift altar in her bedroom.

When incense caught a dresser on fire, her parents' house nearly burned to the ground. The fire was an accident, but the girl admitted her fascination with the movie spurred her interest in magic, Cruz said.

Cruz and Rimer talked about other local cases: the father who unearthed stolen human bones his teen-age son buried in the backyard garden. An ancient burial vault in a Norfolk cemetery robbed of a child's remains and the skull of an adult two months ago.

What's most troubling, said Rimer and Cruz, are the kinds of information available to children on the Internet.

The Satanic Bible is so popular that some local bookstores can't keep it on the shelves, Rimer said. And several Web sites, including Amazon.com, sell the book by famous Satanist Anton LaVey for less than $7.

There are Web sites that list tools necessary for grave-robbing and how-to's on pillaging cemetery vaults. Online chat rooms on vampire Web sites allow novices to find out about rituals. Some sites promote suicide as a way to be elevated to a higher state of consciousness.

``The media today is not helping,'' said Rimer, adding that popular icons in the television and music industry promote Satanism. Rock star Marilyn Manson for example, was baptized as a Satanist and is an honorary priest in the Church of Satan, Rimer said.

``He's proud of that,'' Rimer said. ``What amazes us is when we meet parents and we say his name. . . they're thinking Charles Manson.''

Role-playing games such as Dungeons and Dragons and Masquerade have been the subject of debate nationally for years, Rimer said.

But Hampton Roads started paying attention in 1991, when Shawn Novak, 17, killed two young boys in Virginia Beach.

Novak was obsessed with Dungeons and Dragons. His attorneys argued that his mixture of fantasy and reality took over his world. A character from the game, they said, became the boy's alter ego.

In 1996, Jon C. Bush, 26, was convicted in Virginia Beach and sentenced to more than 30 years in prison for raping or molesting several young girls he recruited into his vampire group.

The girls, from across the region, were promised acceptance and power by Bush, who dressed in black capes and wore heavy white makeup and fangs, Rimer said. But the price of admittance to the group was sexual contact with Bush, Rimer said.

When police called the parents of some of the victims, they were surprised to find out what their children were doing.

``Many were so in denial that they refused to believe their kids were involved,'' Rimer said.


Teen interest in the occult can be a fad that sweeps through school systems from time to time, said Deep Creek High School Principal Nathan T. Hardee.

So school officials have been educating themselves on how to spot at-risk behavior, and parents have held many discussions at PTA meetings, he said.

``The bottom line is that school counselors are more aware of it,'' Hardee said. ``And I think parents are more aware of that type of thing than they used to be.''

Rimer said some signs can be subtle. If a child keeps a bedroom door closed all of the time, he said, parents should ask why.

``Teens do not close doors unless they're trying to hide something,'' he said. ``If there's an open relationship in the home where trustworthiness is kind of a code of conduct, then there should not be any closed doors.''

If teens start listening to strange music, bring home mysterious friends or their behavior becomes hurtful or sadistic, Rimer said, parents should investigate.

Truzzi cautioned that some strange teen-age behavior can be chalked up to adolescent curiosity. It's up to parents to distinguish if a child's behavior is abnormal or dangerous.

``If they come home with a tattoo of a pentagram on their forehead or sadistic actions are involved,'' parents should be concerned, Truzzi said.

Rimer said the easiest way for parents to do that is to read up on the occult, call experts and talk with children about their concerns.

``And if you can't figure it out,'' Rimer said, ``seek professional help.''

There are many behaviors indicating a teen may be dabbling in the occult. Parents who see these indicators should call their local police department:


fascination with death

suicide/attempted suicide

alienation from family

violent and aggressive behavior

obnoxious and anti-social behavior

self-mutilation

bizarre cruelty

fascination with weapons

drug and alcohol abuse

high truancy rate

frequent runaway

confidential phone calls

mysterious new friends

secret messages or diary


Reach Cindy Clayton at cclayton@pilotonline.com or 446-2540.

Found at:

http://www.pilotonline.com/news/nw0514cul.html

[Yvonne Belisle]

It's sad that there are predators out there and just plain sick people that twist things around to this degree. I wish that those children had enough information to know the truth isn't what those creeps make it out to be. The sad truth is that many of us are afraid to talk to these kids so they go out and get information from predators then we get the bad rap for it. There has to be a middle ground.

[dragondancer]

Ignorance at it's blissful best!!!

[loopy]

dragondancer-- exactly.

Blech.

A lot of people are so scared to even acknowledge the existence of anything different, and then when their relatives/students get skewered images and ideas about other religions and get hurt, they condemn other practices and faiths.

Wondering if it will ever all go away.

::amused that every time I try and type blech I end up typing belch instead. :D

[Kaylara]

I just didn't like the way they downplayed the good aspects of the "occult" and focused almost completely on Satanism, and practices that most pagans (and people who are into the occult) condemn.

Kaylara

[Armitage]

Hmm...Let's see here....There was some bad stuff in that list, things that no one could consider healthy mental behavior, but to me it seems like a lot of that is stuff simply there to make parents even more scared than they already are of heir children.

fascination with death -typical *human* behavior...Ever slow down to see a car crash?

alienation from family -teenage changes! All kids go through the 'let's get away from mom and dad' stage.

obnoxious and anti-social behavior -All teens into college age are obnoxious or get that way at times..

confidential phone calls -A kid's privacy is bad??

secret messages or diary -This was once considered normal too!

creepy music -any idiot who uses music as a guide for living and not simple, though powerful, entertainment has issues running deeper than what they listen to.

A lot of the serious problems listed aren't a result of 'occult influences', it's simple not-feeling-cared-for. A kid who is loved by parents, family and friends, and is shown this, will most likely not consider killing themselves, or hurting others.

[Celtic_Angel]

*sigh* This is sad. I wish people understood that there are different paths under the occult for these kids to choose from and I wonder how we could make the information more available to the public. Yvonne says that the high priest, Bill Eades, of the First Wiccan Church of Escondido, the town next to mine, writes in the paper all the time and works with the local pd on educating them. I didn't even know there was a wiccan church around here. If different paths were to make a public protest against this kind of blame by speaking with local newspapers about the differences between paths...

I don't know! The public as a whole is so ingnorant about everything, whether it's the Occult or Christianity or anything else. It doesn't seem to matter how available information is, people refuse to look it up for themselves. I guess the only thing we can do is pray and hope that someone grows a brain.

[Yvonne Belisle]

There are people out there that do listen and if we keep talking where we can be heard they will eventually listen. It often seems like it's hopeless but it's not. Every day people learn a little more. There will always be ignorant people that are proud of thier stupidity but with patience we can make them the minority not the majority. Prayers never hurt in something like this.

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by Kaylara
...snip...

There are many behaviors indicating a teen may be dabbling in the occult. Parents who see these indicators should call their local police department:

...snip...



After reading the indicators listed...

... it sounds more like they're getting into politics to me.

~ew

[Yvonne Belisle]

fomcl

[amberlaine]

I just didn't like the way they downplayed the good aspects of the "occult" and focused almost completely on Satanism, and practices that most pagans (and people who are into the occult) condemn.

Yeah, and they didnt even get the Satanism part right.... (contrary to popular belief, Satanists actually are pretty harmless...*sigh*)

[Vinga]

Originally posted by Kaylara
``If they come home with a tattoo of a pentagram on their forehead or sadistic actions are involved,'' parents should be concerned, Truzzi said.

No kidding!! What a genius this Truzzi person must be who figured that one out all by himself :rolleyes:! I think even a pagan parent would be 'concerned' if their kid got a tattoo on their forehead, no matter what it was of. Wonder if this is an 'equally large' problem in Christianity, that kids come home with a cross tattooed on their forehead?

[Kaylara]

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kaylara

(That was just too good... I was thinking the same thing... LOL)

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Vinga


No kidding!! What a genious this Truzzi person must be who figured that one out all by himself :rolleyes:! I think even a pagan parent would be 'concerned' if their kid got a tattoo on their forehead, no matter what it was of. Wonder if this is an 'eaqually large' problem in Christianity, that kids come home with a cross tattooed on their forhead?

Most tattoos above the neck would be frowned upon, some artists simply refuse to do them.

Blue

[Yvonne Belisle]

I think any artist who is above the board would refuse to put one there on a minor period.

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by dragondancer
Ignorance at it's blissful best!!!

It is right-wing governments and churches, and people like
Swaggart, Oral Roberts, Fred Phelps, Falwell, Pat Robertson,
etc., who use the mainstream corporate medias to lie to people,
hiding the truth from them. :mad:

If ignorance is bliss, all of the above are on Cloud Ten. :D

For those who love, time is eternity....

[bluecat]

While true Satanism is pretty much harmless, the spin-offs from it are not and the same goes for Witchcraft. :( Many kids who get into this think it is cool and do some incredibly stupid stuff thinking they are getting into Satanism or Paganism.

The problem as I see it is modern film and literature as well as many misinformed and apprently well intending folks. Then there is always the far Right (any far right) that refuses to closely look in the mirror.

HOLLYWEIRD is frustrating and so is much of the media.

Blue

[Yvonne Belisle]

You have an excellent point!

[Tigerwallah]

This is the nightmare of Virginia Beach that I moved into a year ago. There is no such thing as open minded here. People are scared of everything, there are more laws here than one could possibly obey, everything from the bizarre to the ridiculous. I was wearing a monkey mask with my sisters toddlers at the zoo. A woman I worked with told me I was lucky I hadn't been arrested because it is illegal for an adult to cover their face in Virginia Beach. I was arrested for a traffic accident in which I hit a guy who stopped in the left lane at a green light. They arrest everyone here, and are out for blood. Sometimes I get the feeling that a group of VB residents will come to my home with torches and scream "Burn the Witch!"

The juvenille judge here wants to have a jail for teens. State legislature has denied his request stating they believed that there was not enough need to warrent the spending. The judge then ordered VB police to arrest kids on any infraction - to prove a point to legislature. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this wasn't spurred by that little conspiracy. "Let's Jail the Goths!"

The ridiculous forehead tatoo comment does not surprise me coming from these mental giants. Yeesh! I remember the Utopia of Tree huggers that was New York City, and I miss it.

[IsisMoon]

I agree that most of the behaviour that parents are supposed to "look out for" in their kids could relate to anything - not just an interest in the occult.... and a lot is simply related to being a teenager (secrecy, doing things that parents don't approve of) -

I know quite a few teenage girls getting body piercings and tattoos simply because its cool and something their parents don't want them to do!

We used to burn incence because we thought it would cover up the cigarette smoke! :-)

I actually thought it was worthwhile for the article to note that practices range FROM honouring nature, but I thought that they should have made more of a point to say that there is nothing wrong with honouring nature! I was glad that the interview with the Wiccan was not skewed and made to look like Wicca was being lumped with negative practices. Infact, it showed the person's concern (I thought anyway).

Blessings

[cydira]

Perhaps it is time to write something to tell Hollywood what the Craft is really like. After all, even an ordinary life can be something dramatic and we all go through enough things to tell the world that we bleed like they do. <taps her lips with her pen, thinking>

Magic frightens people because they don't understand it. The Craft (or any other occult practice) frightens people because they don't understand it. In the United States, our right to practice our religion is garunteed by the Constitution, as is our rights to openly express ourselves. Perhaps it is time for all of us, as a community, begin to express ourselves to the community about is in a slightly different fashion.

Christians attack pagans, pagans attack christians. It's an all together vicious cycle that really hurts everyone involved and wastes alot of energy and time. There are real problems at the heart of the issue, problems like severe depression in our youth or the serous social problems that encourage the abuse of others. It is time for all of us to stop pointing fingers and start doing our jobs. Religion is a way of life. Magic is used to help that way of life to thrive, prayer is used to help that way of life thrive. If all people are equal in the United States, and in the world, then all ways of life are equal too.

There is no monopoly to what is right or what is sacred. We may not all agree on the practices but we agree that there are issues that need desperate attention. The longer we squabble over who started it or who's "responcible" the worse these situations get. I, for one, am not going to stand idly by and let this argument stop me from helping others as best I can. If I have Christians working along side me, that's wonderful, but I'll be just as determined working alone too.

It has been a long and difficult past year for me. I have learned something from this year too. If a community is going to thrive and remain healthy, you need to agree to disagree. It's just like any relationship. Yes, the Burning Times were a tragedy and we do not want this to happen again. But how quick are we, the heirs to the persecution of the Burning Times, going to be to stop these atrocitys from happening to our sometime persecutors instead of looking at the true issues?

I'm sorry, I've wandered way off of topic, but this is something that has been troubling me for quite some time. I felt that I needed to share this with you all. If I have offended, it was not my intent. If I bored you, I apologize. <sighs>

Blessings to you, what ever path you walk.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Personally I think you made several valid points. I'm glad you brought them up.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by cydira
I'm sorry, I've wandered way off of topic, but this is something that has been troubling me for quite some time. I felt that I needed to share this with you all. If I have offended, it was not my intent. If I bored you, I apologize. <sighs>

Blessings to you, what ever path you walk.

You are closer to the topic that you think. Sometimes perception is everything and that perception is colored by what people already believe. Many of these beliefs are based upon fear, power or both. IMHO, It's not necessarily Pagan vs. Christian, but it's about people who want a certain kind of power, the kind of power they can have over other people, the kind that gives control. It's sort of that that little (well, in my case little ;) ) rush you get when you get paid, you now have the power to choose, it's how you exercise that power and your choices that make the difference. This goes into another direction if you don't have that Pay-day or if something goes wrong with that pay day. That euphoria is frustrated and turns on itself and becomes self consuming. But then that is just my take on the situation.

Most of the people I know who came into Paganism and witchcraft for what I call the wrong reasons, came for the power they thought they would have to control things or people. This is part of the kind of "power" that fuels these newspaper articles and lectures. The ability to have control over a situation or person(s) or the fear of losing control over a situation or person(s). The people who write the articles and give the lectures are trying to regain control over the situation and people they feel they have lost control over.

Many of these lectures and articles are done with a sense of urgency and because of that sense of urgency they sometimes overlook details and facts or just plain delete them in order to get their point across as quickly and strongly as they can. They also use everything from urban legend to religious dogma while mixing in a little Hollywood just for spice and color. If you have enough fact and can present it in a certain way, then your fiction can become fact and even to the point of gospel.

Cydira, you were not off base ;).

Now I am stepping off the box.

Blue :cool:

[Yvonne Belisle]

The most effective lies are those that have a bit of truth to them. That's why newspaper articles do so well. They have a bit of truth that is embelished with half truths and outright lies. I have great hope that in time more people will learn the truth and thus be less vulnerable to the lies and half truths of the ignorant and fearful.

[MistOfTheSea86]

This
is an issue that really bothers me... For one there are focusing on teenagers. Like they are the only ones who get interested in things. ANd how they always use Satanism. WHo the hell cares for satanism any way?... LOL. I really believe that people led to Satanism Are sad people who were always negelcted. We may think they are harmless... BUt they really could hurt people. Because they were led to such a horrible religion. And Pardon me if I offend those who find vengeance and revenge okay. The bottom line is. People need to be educated about this kind of thing. If they are not then how are we supposed to stop this behavior. They rant and rave about how they want their kids to not be interested in this. And yet they never bring it up before it's too late. And also who is to say that all o ccult practices are bad? We wiccans believe in harming none, doing good for everyone. BUt when one bad follower of a vengeful religion does something wrong we get all the bad rap. As I said before. Education...

I really hope I have offended none, but this is what I feel... It may be very chaotic, but I had so much to say, and believe me I could do more but I feel that I might offend someone.

[MistOfTheSea86]

I realize what I said up there made no sense what so ever. I apologize to those who read it.

[Yvonne Belisle]

You made sense. I think we need to hear more of what our younger people have to say because this issue is something that affects them directly. Keep bringing forth your thoughts because they matter. No apology is nessesary you spoke from your heart.

[Celtic_Angel]

Having just graduated this last summer, I think I count as one of the younger people of today.

Having been involved in theater for the last several years, I've met lots of teenage artists. I am one. Unfortunately that's where the media concentrates on the most, which just helps to alienate this teenage group even more. Some of them lash out because of this.

It's not 'normal' for a teenager to appreciate art so much. It's not 'normal' for teenagers to be so well versed in alternate religions. It's not 'normal' for teenagers to be truly spiritual.

Beween raging hormonal changes and the alienation from peers and the general public, it's no wonder why some find ways to lash out at others by using the exact things that others have considered abnormal.

For the jocks and preps that dabble with the occult, it gives them something to live for that is out of the ordinary, dull, stupid lives that most of them live. Not all jocks are tv junkies and not all preps are goodie goodies, but instead seek something more exotic that better fits the personality that they hide from peers.

I have only met a few Satanists. Most avoided my questions due to my own religion and were just lonely, cruel, people. I did meet one though that was willing to answer my questions. When I asked him what made him decide to be Satanic he said that unlike Christianity's God, where followers say "Thy will be done", followers of Satan say "My will be done". He agreed that it was most definately a struggle for power in a world in which anything non-mundane is wrong or abnormal.

I'm not really sure where this was supposed to go. I'll hand the mike to someone else till I make sense of what I just said.

C_A

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Celtic_Angel


<snip>
I have only met a few Satanists. Most avoided my questions due to my own religion and were just lonely, cruel, people. I did meet one though that was willing to answer my questions. When I asked him what made him decide to be Satanic he said that unlike Christianity's God, where followers say "Thy will be done", followers of Satan say "My will be done". He agreed that it was most definately a struggle for power in a world in which anything non-mundane is wrong or abnormal.

<snip>

C_A


I really think you have hit it closer than you think, the wish to be exotic and of course the "My will be done," are two very powerful lures. These go far beyond the young, but it seems that the young get the most press and the young are the most likely targets of some groups.

IMHO, You didn't miss it, we just had to make some room for you in the Bull's Eye. :)

Blue

[TwilighttoStarlight]

:bad: What irks me about these people who automatically associate the theft of remains from a cemetary with occult practices is their ignorance. I am one of those people who gets constantly associated with problems teens have in the world. When Columbine happened, students in the halls accused me of being a memer of the now disbanded "Trenchcoat Mafia." But it only happened because I wore black and do not believe in the followings of Christianity. (Keep in mind, I live in a small, Christian-authoritated conservative town, where people think things like Columbine couldn't happen...) from 6th grade till about 10th, I was called a "Satanist,' merely because of the friends who I picked. It didn't help that I was already an outcast from elementary school. Some people blame parents for their children's misbehavior. Some blame society, some blame (seemingly) harmless games (D&D, Magic: the Gathering, Vampire: the Masquerade, for example) musicians, and movies. The point is, it is both the cause and effect of all three. A child raised in a disturbed household may find relief from stress through drugs. (Which, I believe aren't causes from the "Triple Entante of Bad Behavhior," but merely an end result.) Another child, coming through a similar house may find relief in a vampirish round of "Jyhad." My point is, there is no one criminal - unless you want to say it is everyone and everytrhing. One thing I especially noticed was that it wasn't just the violent movies like "Basketball Diaries" that showed how violent teens can be - but the informative media - OUr very own trusted newscasters. How many times have we seen that one particularly bloody individual fal out of that broken window I wonder? 10? 50? 1050? Who knows - it's just the news... isn't it? "It's informative children..." Yes, and that, my dear readers, is where we get the term: COPYCAT. A few months ago, a school a few miles from my own had a bomb threat called into their school and announced on public news and in the papers. A few days later, my school found a posted bomb threat on my school's enterance, then again a few weeks later. (They did arrest the responsible one, who is now serving juvenile, with time in real jail after.) Anyway, that crime WAS NOT seens on the news or papers... the media realized it's mistake. There was only one copycay afterwards, but from a neighboring school, with the same results. Of course, the ones automatically blamed by the students for the bomb threats were my friends and I. Now, being teens, we have our grumbles and gripes about school, but we weren't (and still aren't) that stupid.
Back to the movies: ahh, yes "The Craft." Moneymaker wasn't it? Yes, my friends an I had particular interest in that film, each of the four of us (ironically) being able to associate themselves with each of the four girls. (Not to sound haugty, but I was like the heroine Sarah, new to the group, and not sure of what I was getting myself into.) Anyway, we were temporarily inspired by Hollywood's special effects. Tell me young (and elder) pagans, who here hasn't tried their game, "Light as a feather?" Well, we tried it, ten girls (at a birthday party) around one - who weighed 98 pounds, mind you - and found lifting her on two fingers hard. So much for the circle. (Of course, dropping her from a foot off the ground didn't make any of us feel any more powerful.) The film itself had minor truths to it... "minor" being the major word. I had an interest in the practice, but it never really started full-force until the past two years. And it wasn't an holy message from Manon, I'll tell you what.
Now, Satanism. Okay, first of all... HELLO!? Not everyone who is pagan is Satanic. In fact, wiccans don't even have a Satan, do you my friends? I'm aware how some older spells may require bones and skulls and "goofer dust," (cemetary dirt, for those of you not familiar with the term.) but that was in the OLDEN DAYS. I think the digging up of remains was either a cruel and childish prank/dare, or, just a sick (and, ew, gross!) fascination with making some cash. As far as occult practices, arrest those indecent people who robbed the dead of their rest and ask them. I have a couple of friends who communicate with the afterlife, and they would be as angered as I to see such chilidish and immoral behavior in anyone. I respect the dead. I hope whoever pulled such a prank has nightmares as punishment for their crimes.
Onto games.... ex-CUSE ME?! Okay, I see where people might be going from V: TM, or Jyhad, but allowing yourself to get so in-deep witha game like Dungeons & Dragons, I'm sorry, but this is probably the only time I point my finger. Someone either a) didn't teach this kid the differences between fantasy and reality; or b) didn't realize this kid was candidate for schizophrenia. And I lay the blame on no-one directly. Vampires games, (hell, I love the vampire fantasy, but I'm too much of a wimp to do it) and role palying, I can see where those might get you in trouble. One of the key props sold in gaming stores (my local one carried a version) was a journal for "Masquerade" players to use to log their gaming life. An associate of mine said a friend of his almost got arrested for his journal's contents, and had one heck of a time explaining what it really was. And the Vampire subculture has had me a little edgy, but not ultimately worried. If any of you have seen HBO's "America Undercover: the Vampire Murders," you'll know what I'm talking about. But the murders weren't directed from the occult. The murderers (on death row) were into drugs, and only wanted people to be with them on their "feeding frenzy." Even one killer's sire was distraught at how out-of-hand his Childe had become.
What I'm trying to say is, ignorant society is nothing more than that. When people are afraid, they'd rather destroy what they don't understand and what they feel threatens them. We may be evolved from the same primordial soup, but we still have the egregore of our savage ancestors. We will destroy what we fear, praise those who seem to be our saviors, and will ultimately, in the end... destroy ourselves.

[Yvonne Belisle]

I guess I'm unique in that I let my children have a lot of freedom. At ages 8,9,10 I let my children play Vampire the Masquerade. My children have been told since the start that they could play as long as they remembered it was a game. During the time that they played they showed a marked improvement in school! 2 nights a week they stayed up till 2am and they got better in school not worse. They no longer play because I had problems with the behavior of a few players. The reason I bring this up is because of the people that frequently showed up to save the souls of the "poor misguided devil worshipers in the park". My eldest now age 12 at the age of 10 had a nice talk with these misguided people he told them that he couldn't understand why they couldn't understand the difference between a game and reality. This was a group of people some of whom were college educated that couldn't understand the difference. This is what we are up against it's really a sad day when children are forced to be educators of the adults in such a manner. I truely feel that if a child can argue to where a person is embarassed by thier ignorance then we as older rational human beings should be able to do so as well. I truely feel that untill we begin educating the people around us that the news will continue to push this uninformed and ignorant view upon the world at large.

[MammaStar]

Right on, TwilighttoStarlight!

[gunner]

that's what i'm seeing here, some very good thinking, and some of the best of it coming from our young members. mist, twilight and celtic angel, among them. if these are a sample of our next generation we're in good shape. ignorance is indeed the enemy and we'll never be rid of that battle even though in some cases ignorance can be cured. (stupidity is a whole other problem) but the fight is worth it for the hope of a better world to leave for mist, celtic angel, twilight and all the rest that follow with them as we grow old and pass. mithras guide and guard you young ones.

[random]

Originally posted by TwilighttoStarlight
:bad: What irks me about these people who automatically associate the theft of remains from a cemetary with occult practices is their ignorance. I am one of those people who gets constantly associated with problems teens have in the world. When Columbine happened, students in the halls accused me of being a memer of the now disbanded "Trenchcoat Mafia." But it only happened because I wore black and do not believe in the followings of Christianity. (Keep in mind, I live in a small, Christian-authoritated conservative town, where people think things like Columbine couldn't happen...) from 6th grade till about 10th, I was called a "Satanist,' merely because of the friends who I picked. It didn't help that I was already an outcast from elementary school.

you too, huh? My father even told me that I was "socialy, capable of copycating"...

I wear black, I am outward with my beliefs, therefor, i am always harrassed during and even after school. But, with the small school I am in, it can be a good thing. I've found some people to associate myself with that I wouldn't have even tried before I began being shunned by my fellow peers. Somehow, I have manage to become friends with Jason, my neighbor (the "High Geek" at my school), Saunder (he's all himself. It amazes me how he doenst care what anyone thinks about him), Jacob (A sixth grader that rides my bus, a D&D fanatic, has few friends, and is repetedly called "queer"...), and Kory (outcasted for many things) What i think im trying to say, that by having people avoid you, can be good. You meet new and intresting people, that you would before never even talk to.

I am going to be going to Worlds of Fun with Jason, Kory, and Saunder the 24th.. Its a 8th grade xcape kinda thing. it's going to be a blast. ...

Im really glad this year is almost over. I have a total of two days of accual school left. I just survived finals. But, I am going to be working in my town this summer, HOW FUN! (not) I really want to work in lawerence. Nobody in my school is working in that town and its only 15 min away... Im ranting about nothingness now..

later all

[gunner]

i don't remember seeing you around the village common before random, welcome aboard. hike over there to bluecat's porch, pour yourself a glass of lemonade and get aquainted. these are good folks here.
"gunner"

[random]

thank you, gunner..

i have been here for a few months.. But i can rarely visit the site on account of my little bit of free time.

[gunner]

well you're welcome whenever you can wander by

[Carmelo]

I bet Dumbya read that article and smiled.

The bad things that misguided youths do are the fault of outer influences such as media and Hollywood. But, it is still their choice as to the way they wish to practice. We can only hope that some of them will actually look for teachers and discern for themselves if that teacher is going to lead them down the wrong path.

What gets me is that these officers are supposed to be investigating and have not, it seems to me, enlisted the aid of true believers who take their craft seriously( and there is a plethora of us out there).

Hmm, maybe someone could contact them and offer guidance services? Just an idea.

[Amora]

I'm confused...What does robbing gravesites have to do with being a pagan? I didn't see that part in the rede. (thou shalt steal human remains???)

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by Amora
I'm confused...What does robbing gravesites have to do with being a pagan? I didn't see that part in the rede. (thou shalt steal human remains???)

I think that it is really a voodo practice, but many people don't know the difference between Paganism, wicca, voodo or devil worship. They just lump em all together and refuse to listen.

[Kaylara]

Not all pagans follow the rede, and some of them do do things that we won't all agree on...

Kaylara

[bluecat]

IMHO, I just think it's people just trying to be "cool" or serve what they think is some sort of dark lord, when they are only serving their own vanity.

Blue

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by bluecat
IMHO, I just think it's people just trying to be "cool" or serve what they think is some sort of dark lord, when they are only serving their own vanity.

Blue

In the case of the teenagers, I couldn't agree more. I had a crazy voodo witch friend who did that kind of strange stuff, though. She was serious about it. Eventually I had to end our friendship because voodo is definately macabre and a little demented (sorry to any voodo queens on the site).

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by cydira
Perhaps it is time to write something to tell Hollywood what the Craft is really like.

Groups have been doing this for years, sweetie. It's not done a bit of good, either. I doubt it ever will. There is such a thing as free speach, still, in this country, and as long as there is, then Hollywood is going to get away with whatever it can. And, unfortunately, lies and scandal are what sell at the box office.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah
I think that it is really a voodo practice, but many people don't know the difference between Paganism, wicca, voodo or devil worship. They just lump em all together and refuse to listen.

I know some people who are into Voodoo, but they don't practice grave robbery. :(

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Kaylara
Not all pagans follow the rede, and some of them do do things that we won't all agree on... Kaylara

Yup. Was just commenting on this in another part of the board ... *sigh* ... When are people going to learn that we're not all the same? Just because you're Pagan doesn't mean you're Wiccan or a Witch! Just because you're Pagan doesn't mean you have to follow the 3-fold-Law or the Wiccan Rede (ah, there's a reason it's called that). ....

This is a big sore spot for me. Sorry for raving! :rolleyes:

[Amora]

Being the first to bring up the subject of the rede, I apologize if I offended anyone...I wasn't trying to imply we all follow the rede. I'm totally cool with us all being different it would be boring if we weren't. My main point, sarcastically put, was it is disrespectful to rob graves for any reason and narrow minded of the newspaper to blame it on pagans.

[Mairwen]

Narrow-minded views in the media, Hollywood, and in the public-at-large. However, none of this is going to change overnight. It takes education, and those willing and able to be as far out of the Broom Closet as they can be.:elf:

[Wyrdsister]

:confused:

Was it just me, or did anyone else find that article unusually difficult to read? It seemed to jump from one subject to another, assuming that by simple inclusion of each subject in the article would thereby prove the connection between them all. My apologies to the author, but "DUH!!?!" Since when was that the case?

In addition to better education into what paganism, the occult, Satanism, and role playing games really are, we should also be teaching critical thinking skills to people at a young age so they can pick out incoherent bunk like this. Not to mention clear and concise writing skills...

... perhaps it's getting past Wyrdsister's bedtime... ;)

</soapbox>

[gunner]

"In addition to better education into what paganism, the occult, Satanism, and role playing games really are, we should also be teaching critical thinking skills to people at a young age so they can pick out incoherent bunk like this. Not to mention clear and concise writing skills... "

you've neatly put your finger right on the point sister.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by gunner
"In addition to better education into what paganism, the occult, Satanism, and role playing games really are, we should also be teaching critical thinking skills to people at a young age so they can pick out incoherent bunk like this. Not to mention clear and concise writing skills... "

you've neatly put your finger right on the point sister.


yup ... again, from the minds of the young ... :) :) :) :) :) :)

Blue :cool:

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by gunner
"In addition to better education into what paganism, the occult, Satanism, and role playing games really are, we should also be teaching critical thinking skills to people at a young age so they can pick out incoherent bunk like this. Not to mention clear and concise writing skills... "

you've neatly put your finger right on the point sister.




I thought it was just me!!! That is an example of the fine writing of my local newspaper. I'm used to the Times and Daily News from NY, but here, that's all we got. In fact, radio, and TV news isn't much better. Dead air, silly chatter, and newscasters who don't use proper grammer, let alone have the ability to put together a news story.

Anyway, I'm working on composing a letter to this newspaper regarding this issue and intolerance of Pagans in this Pat Robertson town. Please see post: Does Anyone Ever Listen, it's the latest in Christian Intolerance against Pagans that has come out of my area.

[silvermoon]

:G What the hell.............

That article again shows the misunderstanding and IGNORANCE of paganism/the occult by the general public.

At one point the author says that there are many religions that are covered by the banner of THE OCCULT but concentrates on satanism (as if its the only true occult religion) for impact value and sensationalism. This author was trying to :eek:scare and :eek:shock as many mainstream people as possible and without really researching the subject (you know putting actual facts in this article would detract from shock value it created).

It makes out that there are only :sick:sicko's and :crazy:crazies that are involved in the occult. The fact that there people out there using the occult to use and seduce the vulnerable is disturbing but it is not what the occult is ALL about. I don't know about you guys but who goes grave robbing and what that got to do with the occult :confused:.


:heartthro BB:heartthro

:) silvermoon :)

[silvermoon]

8O 8O 8O 8O

I'm sorry guys if my last post was a bit of a rant and rave.

I'll try not to be so judgemental and dismissive next time BUT these incidents make me so mad and I lose my cool. I'll try to be a bit more restrained and level headed.

8O AGAIN I APOLOGISE 8O

:heartthro BB :heartthro

:D silvermoon :D

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by silvermoon
8O 8O 8O 8O

I'm sorry guys if my last post was a bit of a rant and rave.

I'll try not to be so judgemental and dismissive next time BUT these incidents make me so mad and I lose my cool. I'll try to be a bit more restrained and level headed.

8O AGAIN I APOLOGISE 8O

:heartthro BB :heartthro

:D silvermoon :D

Silvermoon, don't apologize. As a ranter myself, I rather enjoy when someone gets that passionate about something. The world has lost it's passion and anger about injustice, and frankly, it scares me. You should write to the Virginia Pilot and rant to them. I have because they are my local paper, and unfortunately, this article was quite representitive of local attitudes, and incompetence.

[silvermoon]

:heartthro :heartthro :heartthro :heartthro

Thanks for the advice and Merry Meet, Tigerwallah:sunny:

:uzi: Our mainstream newspapers in Australia also have the same misguided views and opinions :shot:.

:D :D I keep the passion burning :D :D

:heartthro :heartthro BB :heartthro :heartthro

;) silvermoon ;)

PS it will be a long, hard battle :smash: but must keep fighting the injustice:apirate:

[Tigerwallah]

Merry Meet Silvermoon!!! Keep at it, girl!!! 8)