What does the Bible say about Witchcraft?

[~Belladonna~]

Genuine question!

I was brought up with no religion really, apart from the times I would ask my Mum or Dad if we were Christians and they would say yes :huh: This really confused me as we did not go to Church, pray, read the Bible, or ever talk about God i.e. we were not practising Christians, but when I asked if we were they'd say yes :eyebrow: Basically we wern't Christians at all but they liked to think we were because I now know they were scared to say otherwise.

So, I never read the Bible and to this day I still haven't. I never felt the need to and I still don't. The day I told my parents I was Pagan and a Witch they didn't bat an eyelid (thank the Goddess) and I had a very easy "coming out of the broom closet" :smile: Not to mention they were used to my "weird" ways and all the Witchy items I'd buy when I was younger and adorn my bedroom with.

Anyway, I see so often Christian Wicca and Christian Witchcraft but know myself that these two things are basically an oxymoron and a contradiction. Yes, I've never read the Bible but I do know that Witchcraft and Christians don't mix. Wasn't it looked upon as a sin to practice Witchcraft? How can one be a Christian Witch or Wiccan if the Bible says it's wrong? For those who class themselves as a Christian Witch or Wiccan, how do you feel about what the Bible says about this? How do you make the two things go together?

I don't know exactly what the Bible says about Witchcraft because like I said, I've never read it, so can someone enlighten me on what it does say? I want to understand better so
I'm not just saying "Oh well, the Bible says it's wrong to practice Witchcraft," etc.

I'm not trying to cause any arguments here, I'm really not, not at all. I'm genuinely curious and want to learn about what the Bible actually says regarding Withcraft, hence why I'm asking. I'm also intrigued about how you guys make it work. How do you fit the two things together without feeling like you're going against Gods will, or whatever it is?

Thanks for helping me out :)

[Fireheart]

Nothing good, that's for damn sure...lol.

Exodus 22:18 You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through the fire, or who uses divination, or is a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, Or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Galatians 5:19-20 Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency, Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies)

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)--[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.

I'm not sure how Christian witches interpret these passages...maybe a different translation/meaning for a different culture?

[~Belladonna~]

Thanks for sharing LO :)

If this is the case then, how can one who follows the word of God and the Bible possibly feel at ease with practising Witchcraft and/or being Wiccan?

I wonder if it's a case of picking and choosing parts of the Bible that suit and disregarding other parts such as the passages you've shown?

It would be good to hear from some Christian Witches and Wiccans on here and get their opinions on how they make the two go together.
It would also be cool if we could have a good old discussion on the topic without it getting out-of-hand and the thread getting closed down :)

[Nox_Mortus]

Thanks for sharing LO :)

If this is the case then, how can one who follows the word of God and the Bible possibly feel at ease with practising Witchcraft and/or being Wiccan?

I wonder if it's a case of picking and choosing parts of the Bible that suit and disregarding other parts such as the passages you've shown?

It would be good to hear from some Christian Witches and Wiccans on here and get their opinions on how they make the two go together.
It would also be cool if we could have a good old discussion on the topic without it getting out-of-hand and the thread getting closed down :)

A lot it comes from selective interpretation and application of biblical scripture. It should also be pointed out that with Christian Wicca there are problems from the Wiccan side as well.

[LacyRoze]

There are numerous threads on Christian Wicca, Christian Witchcraft and what the bible has to say. I would suggest starting with reading those.

[green aventurine]

There is some stuff on these two pages of this thread which might be of relevance:

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=213811

Also, Isaac Bonewits (or bonnie-wits lol) talks about it on here a bit (scroll down for the interview).

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/hexEducation

Can't find exactly where, it's nearly 2 hours long. I think it was something along the lines of changing the bible translation for King James and the witch trials - can't remember, I'm afraid.

[Deerwoman]

I think it's important to know that any Bible translations based on the King James version of the bible are incorrectly translated. King James' hobby was witch hunting, so he altered passages of the bible to suit his propaganda. Most of the passages referring to witchcraft and sorcery actually translate from the original Greek and Hebrew as poisoner, thief, liar, etc. Contradictorily to the King James alterations, in the Bible, one of Jesus' disciples seeks shelter and prophecy from the Witch of Endor. On top of that the Bible is full of folk magic and practices that were not far removed from the ancient Christians' Pagan neighbours. I prefer the Old Testament myself, all the old stories and battles and God as warrior... great stuff.

[~Belladonna~]

There are numerous threads on Christian Wicca, Christian Witchcraft and what the bible has to say. I would suggest starting with reading those.

I'm sure there is but they're probably quite old now and I wanted to start a new discussion anyways ;)

[Lunacie]

I think it's important to know that any Bible translations based on the King James version of the bible are incorrectly translated. King James' hobby was witch hunting, so he altered passages of the bible to suit his propaganda. Most of the passages referring to witchcraft and sorcery actually translate from the original Greek and Hebrew as poisoner, thief, liar, etc. Contradictorily to the King James alterations, in the Bible, one of Jesus' disciples seeks shelter and prophecy from the Witch of Endor. On top of that the Bible is full of folk magic and practices that were not far removed from the ancient Christians' Pagan neighbours. I prefer the Old Testament myself, all the old stories and battles and God as warrior... great stuff.

Actually, it's wasn't one of Jesus's disciples that sought out the Witch of Endor, it was King Saul of Israel. Ironically, after going on a very thorough witch-hunt and ordering his men to seek out and slaughter every witch and necromancer and medium in the land. he went hunting for a witch or medium to help him.

His leadership had caused a lot of bad feelings with the neighbors and soon he found himself under siege. He wished he could have a medium contact the spirit of Samuel, a prophet and a judge, and finally found the very last witch in the area who was too terrified to try to contact the dead prophet. But King Saul finally convinced her, and she summoned up the spirit of Samuel the Prophet who informed King Saul that God no longer blessed Saul's people and that Saul himself would die in the coming battle.

The page where I found this story (http://www.explorefaith.org/resources/blog/phyllis_tickles_first_sundays/may_3.php)also goes on to explain how people in the time of Jesus accepted the paranormal and calling the spirits of the dead to come back and share their wisdom, so when Jesus died on the cross and then rose from the dead 3 days later, they thought they were seeing his spirit - his ghost. They didn't understand that he was not a ghost and yet was not corporeal either until they saw him ascend to heaven.

It was years later before men like Paul of Tarsus and King James of Scotland & England once again went on a witch-hunt and this time they eradicated witches by changing the descriptions of them in the holy texts from helpful mediums and healers into evil and vengeful hags.

[~Belladonna~]

So what people are saying is, no one knows which bits of the Bible are accurate or not so basically they can pick and choose what to believe? If that's the case then why believe any of it? I mean, if people don't know which bits are true or not, what's the point?
If I were a Christian I would be totally confused right now and if I'm honest, a little pissed off with the Bible lol :D

Also, if one decides to disregard all of the Bible because of its so many inaccuracies, would they still be classed as a Christian?

[ffetcher]

I think it's important to know that any Bible translations based on the King James version of the bible are incorrectly translated. King James' hobby was witch hunting, so he altered passages of the bible to suit his propaganda. Most of the passages referring to witchcraft and sorcery actually translate from the original Greek and Hebrew as poisoner, thief, liar, etc.

absolutely correct, but it mostly wasn't James himself, rather the translators etc who wanted to curry favour. Shakespeare wrote "the Scottish play" for the same reason. The most obvious mistranslation is "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". A much better translation is poisoner, so if anyone quotes that at you, tell them to go back and read the original. :)


Contradictorily to the King James alterations, in the Bible, one of Jesus' disciples seeks shelter and prophecy from the Witch of Endor. On top of that the Bible is full of folk magic and practices that were not far removed from the ancient Christians' Pagan neighbours. I prefer the Old Testament myself, all the old stories and battles and God as warrior... great stuff.

The early [Christian] church played on miracles and suchlike to show that its power of magic was greater than the faiths it had supplanted. This stuck the mediaeval church with having to approve stuff that the church fathers never claimed, and again the KJB translations reflect this. The Canon Episcopi, from the start of that period, makes it clear that divination for evil purposes (malefice) is heresy. By extension, divination for good purposes is not.

But yes, for earlier versions, start with "it was she who Solomon worshipped", as re-quoted by Hildegard of Bingen (approved as canonical by papal enquiry) and you'll find that Solomon had taken to wife a Goddess worshipper. Then work through to Ecclesiastes and the idea that the demise of leaving out drink-offerings for the Goddess has blighted the crops :); and of course Canticles (which I learned as Song of Songs) is IMO one of the finest pieces of erotic poetry around.

I'm no longer in any meaningful sense Christian, but like many current Wiccans I was raised that way, and indeed taught [Christian] Sunday School for a number of years. I'd have no problem reconciling The Bible, Christianity or Judaism with Wicca or witchcraft if I needed to.

blessings
ffetcher

[~Belladonna~]

There is some stuff on these two pages of this thread which might be of relevance:

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=213811

Also, Isaac Bonewits (or bonnie-wits lol) talks about it on here a bit (scroll down for the interview).

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/hexEducation

Can't find exactly where, it's nearly 2 hours long. I think it was something along the lines of changing the bible translation for King James and the witch trials - can't remember, I'm afraid.

Thanks for those links :thumbsup:

I always thought Isaac Bonewits was pronounced Bone and then Wits i.e. Bone-wits lol.

[green aventurine]

Thanks for those links :thumbsup:

You're welcome :)

I always thought Isaac Bonewits was pronounced Bone and then Wits i.e. Bone-wits lol.

so did I lol I still reckon boney-witz would have been the way forward :hahugh:

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=154101&page=5

[~Belladonna~]

Thanks for those links :thumbsup:

You're welcome :)

I always thought Isaac Bonewits was pronounced Bone and then Wits i.e. Bone-wits lol.

so did I lol I still reckon boney-witz would have been the way forward :hahugh:

http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=154101&page=5

LOL :smileroll

[Lunacie]

So what people are saying is, no one knows which bits of the Bible are accurate or not so basically they can pick and choose what to believe? If that's the case then why believe any of it? I mean, if people don't know which bits are true or not, what's the point?
If I were a Christian I would be totally confused right now and if I'm honest, a little pissed off with the Bible lol :D

Also, if one decides to disregard all of the Bible because of its so many inaccuracies, would they still be classed as a Christian?

Well, I doubt that's the reason some Christians pick and choose what they believe, but I know I was awfully confused when I was a member of the Christian Church. I'm assuming that before all the changes caused by mis-translations (deliberate or accidental) the bible wasn't as contradictory as it has become. But this is the bible the world is stuck with at this time.

Which isn't a problem for me now that I've come to the belief that the bible is mostly fables and story telling with a moral.

[angle kitsune]

i guess in the end it comes down to faith. I have faith that the watchtower society translated our bible to the best of their abilities and that it is as accurate as possible with it still beling readable and understandable though im sure many ideas and thoughts where lost in translation. i know the witnesses used the king james bible before we had our own. i have faith that the bible is ture in all its words and as most witnesses i have faith that god helped in the translation of our bible.

i guess what im trying to say is in the end its up to each person and how much they are willing and confortable to believe in the bible and what it says. i don't feel that you can be a witch and fallow gods word just as i feel you can not be gay and fallow gods word. however i also respect each person's choice to try and be both as it is what feels right to them

[Louisvillian]

Genuine question! I'm genuinely curious and want to learn about what the Bible actually says regarding Withcraft, hence why I'm asking.

To be precise, nothing really, since the idea of "witchcraft" as a coherent system was/is more of an Early Modern phenomenon. The oft-cited and popular translation of the Old Testament in the King James Bible rendered certain phrases as "witchcraft" largely due to it catering to King James' own agenda and then-widespread paranoia regarding perceived occult practices.

The actual terms used in the Old Testament are rather vague and can be variously translated as "sorcery", "divination", "poison", or "necromancy". It leaves quite a bit open to translation, though it seems to condemn certain practices that later became associated with popular notions of witchcraft and esoterica.

[~Belladonna~]

Thanks for the interesting replies folks. I know nothing of the Bible and it's nice to hear about its origins, etc. However, it would be nice to hear from some of the Christian Witches/Wiccans on here and hear their opinion on how they combine the two religions/practices together without it going against the beliefs of each of the two religions?

[~Belladonna~]

i guess in the end it comes down to faith. I have faith that the watchtower society translated our bible to the best of their abilities and that it is as accurate as possible with it still beling readable and understandable though im sure many ideas and thoughts where lost in translation. i know the witnesses used the king james bible before we had our own. i have faith that the bible is ture in all its words and as most witnesses i have faith that god helped in the translation of our bible.

i guess what im trying to say is in the end its up to each person and how much they are willing and confortable to believe in the bible and what it says. i don't feel that you can be a witch and fallow gods word just as i feel you can not be gay and fallow gods word. however i also respect each person's choice to try and be both as it is what feels right to them

Well seeing as you're a Christian then these beliefs sound right. After all, it is the word of God and what the Bible says, and IMHO, for one to be a Christian you go by Gods word and what the Bible says, right? Otherwise you're not actually a Christian but something else. Call it what you will but it's not Christianity.
It's basically like eclectics calling themselves Wiccan. If they're not from a Coven derived from Gerald Gardner and have been initiated then you're not Wiccan. Once again, call it what you will but it's not Wicca or eclectic Wicca. I'm not bashing Wicca here, not at all. I used to go under the title of eclectic Wiccan myself when I was new on my path, and I learnt this the hard way like so many do. Anyways, this is a whole different topic all together lol and definitely not one for this thread.

[Burning Angel]

Contradictorily to the King James alterations, in the Bible, one of Jesus' disciples seeks shelter and prophecy from the Witch of Endor.

Actually, it was King Saul of Israel...a heretic and bad dude in the traditional understanding, and he was trying to get the witch to summon up Samuel the prophet, who promptly told him off for consulting with the witch. Even if you view the Bible from a more Christopagan perspective, it's hard to justify Saul as being a good guy in any sense.

Yeah...up until a few years ago I was a total Bible geek :P Trying to erase the bad parts and "write over" with less fundamentalist interpretations :P

~Jon :boing:

[Lunacie]

Well seeing as you're a Christian then these beliefs sound right. After all, it is the word of God and what the Bible says, and IMHO, for one to be a Christian you go by Gods word and what the Bible says, right? Otherwise you're not actually a Christian but something else. Call it what you will but it's not Christianity.
It's basically like eclectics calling themselves Wiccan. If they're not from a Coven derived from Gerald Gardner and have been initiated then you're not Wiccan. Once again, call it what you will but it's not Wicca or eclectic Wicca. I'm not bashing Wicca here, not at all. I used to go under the title of eclectic Wiccan myself when I was new on my path, and I learnt this the hard way like so many do. Anyways, this is a whole different topic all together lol and definitely not one for this thread.

I know it's quite off topic, and I don't want to argue about any of this, but there have always been some Wiccans who don't insist on initiation to make one a Wiccan. It's commonly quoted "There is no One True Way (tm)".

I've always appreciated the way Catherine Noble explains these things in her forum "Wicca For The Rest Of Us." She says:


Finally, there is a difference between an initiation and an initiation ceremony. The ceremony is what a coven puts you through when they judge you ready. They need to judge whether you are ready, however, because the unprepared are highly unlikely to experience the actual initiation, which is exposure and understanding of mystery. Initiation ceremonies are meant to evoke initiation, but they are not one and the same. You can experience mystery outside of a ceremony.
http://wicca.timerift.net/non-initiation.shtml

[sidhe]

So what people are saying is, no one knows which bits of the Bible are accurate or not so basically they can pick and choose what to believe? If that's the case then why believe any of it? I mean, if people don't know which bits are true or not, what's the point?
If I were a Christian I would be totally confused right now and if I'm honest, a little pissed off with the Bible lol :D

Also, if one decides to disregard all of the Bible because of its so many inaccuracies, would they still be classed as a Christian?

Well, think of it in these terms:

The whole notion that the Bible is infallible is actually a pretty recent notion, only dating from the1700s or 1800s. Christianity is defined by the relationship of the individual with God through Christ, not their acceptance of the Bible. Keep in mind that for the better portion of the church's history, most people didn't even have access to the Bible, let alone be literate enough to read it in Latin. It was acceptance of the Nicene Creed (which mentions nothing of morality, but the nature of God) and regular reception of communion that was the mark of the good, average Christian, not their acceptance of a book.

In the older churches (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Coptic), the defining standard is church tradition, and scripture is used to explain and support the tradition. Just sayin', the Bible is not the Universal Defining Standard of Christianity.

[sidhe]

And, as far as this relates to Christian Paganism...read up on the Golden Dawn, W. B. Yeats, the symbolism of Thelema, what, exactly, the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram is referencing, where Hermetic Qabalah comes from, and so on and so forth.

Not to mention that Gardner said within Witchcraft Today that being a witch and a Christian was possible...one would just have to be a heretic.

93 93/93
s.

[~Belladonna~]

I know it's quite off topic, and I don't want to argue about any of this, but there have always been some Wiccans who don't insist on initiation to make one a Wiccan. It's commonly quoted "There is no One True Way (tm)".

I've always appreciated the way Catherine Noble explains these things in her forum "Wicca For The Rest Of Us." She says:


http://wicca.timerift.net/non-initiation.shtml

And I totally respect that point-of-view :) It's just not mine. At the end of the day, who am I to say one is not Wiccan and shouldn't practice it because I don't share their thoughts and opinions on it? It's just my opinion and nothing else.
In fact, I still have quite a few Wiccan ways myself and to this day I find myself sticking to certain ways of casting Circle and laying out my Altar. The only difference is, I don't call it Wicca or myself Wiccan any more as I feel I'm too eclectic and have varying styles for my path and take from too many different sources and other paths :uhhuhuh: Not to mention I broke the "and it harm none, do what ye will" rule lol. I'm known for throwing a Hex or two around when the need arises :brew: and it just felt like I was being fake towards Wicca, if you know what I mean!

[Lunacie]

And I totally respect that point-of-view :) It's just not mine. At the end of the day, who am I to say one is not Wiccan and shouldn't practice it because I don't share their thoughts and opinions on it? It's just my opinion and nothing else.
In fact, I still have quite a few Wiccan ways myself and to this day I find myself sticking to certain ways of casting Circle and laying out my Altar. The only difference is, I don't call it Wicca or myself Wiccan any more as I feel I'm too eclectic and have varying styles for my path and take from too many different sources and other paths :uhhuhuh: Not to mention I broke the "and it harm none, do what ye will" rule lol. I'm known for throwing a Hex or two around when the need arises :brew: and it just felt like I was being fake towards Wicca, if you know what I mean!

We should probably move this to a new thread, but...

Wicca started out eclectic and Gardner himself said that each coven or person should copy the BoS and add to it what that coven found most meaningful in terms of practices. I don't see a problem with being somewhat eclectic, as long as you're building on the basic framework that Gardner put into place.

"An it harm none" is not a rule. It's a guideline. People don't get excommunicated for breaking the rules in Wicca - because there really aren't any.

Gardner and his coven did at least one hex or binding, on the Nazi's.

But if it didn't feel like Wicca to you, or you didn't want to follow Wicca anymore, then I can't argue with that. :hahugh: