Why do so many Witches dislike Silver Ravenwolf & Fiona Horne?

[Freyja Witchsong]

Merry meet, :)

I just wanted to ask, why do so many Witches dislike Silver Ravenwolf and Fiona Horne? I've been practicing solitary eclectic Wicca for about ten years and I have read both of their Craft primer books by Silver Ravenwolf and Fiona Horne and liked them very much. I always recommend them to people who want to know more about the Craft.

I can see where some people may think they're shallow or focus more on Magick than foundational Wiccan beliefs and religion. However, doesn't it seem that most "celebrities" of sorts end up with people having a lot of mixed feelings? They were some of the first to "come out of the broom closet" and have been very successful. I just don't seem what the all acrimony is about.

Anyone mind enlightening me?
Merry meet, merry part & merry meet again, :cutie:

[Phoenix Blue]

I just wanted to ask, why do so many Witches dislike Silver Ravenwolf and Fiona Horne?
Because they're fake?

[PhoenixRevival]

Personally I feel Ravenwolf is a good stepping stone... She throws alot of general info out there that isn't all that inaccurate... but to get the good juicy bits that interest you, you'll need to branch out beyond her writing.

[Philosophia]

I had this reply typed out about why I don't like Fiona Horne (and, yes, I have read her books) but I think this webpage explains it the best:

http://wicca.timerift.net/horne.shtml

In other words, I think she is too pretentious, shallow, market driven, without any real substance or background knowledge. Fiona Horne was not one of the first people out of the closet here but she is more publicly driven than most others.

I can't speak of Silver Ravenwolf since I've only flicked through her books and haven't bothered to really read them.

[Freyja Witchsong]

Because they're fake?

I think saying they're fake is a little pretentious considering none of us really know them personally.

On one hand, I would have to agree with one of the previous posts saying that they have good beginner material but their work isn't the only thing a person should read. Certainly one shouldn't read those two books and immediately call themselves, "Witch."

But also, when you notice how much information they do present on the Craft, it's hard to say it's all just a bunch of bs. Who goes that far out of their way to study and learn so that they can publish their own material? Certainly it's possible, but it doesn't seem that plausible.

I'm now going to read the link someone posted on Fiona Horne. Perhaps my mind will change but perhaps not because I don't know that much about her.

[Nox_Mortus]

Because they severely misrepresent Wicca, and give people a lot of wrong ideas, also they tend to promote shoddy history and treat it more like a fashion statement than a religion (Horne is especially guilty of this) actually in both cases thier work focuses far to much on spells and not very much on the religious aspect or on ethics, both of which should come before spells.

[Toby Stimpson]

I have a feeling it's not because they're fake, but instead it's how they present themselves and market themselves. They both market themselves in a very pop/urban way... mostly towards youth. The content of their books has a flair of eclecticism that is not backed up anywhere and when they came out of the broom closet, as you said, it was in a very highly popularized, mainstream way. They commercialized on their spirituality in a way that has come across as being not as serious as others.

I mean don't get me wrong, I think Fiona is fabulous... but by comparison to other works like say: Starhawk or Raymond Buckland or even Dion Fortune... you cannot place her in the same category as them. She is a beginners level, and I think a lot of people who criticise her are individuals who operate on a higher level. Ofcourse that being said, we don;t know her like you said, and it could be down to a lot of over-commercialization. But, that could be why some people criticize. I wouldnt go as far as 'hate' because if anyone truly hates an author then they have a bit of an issue.

[Freyja Witchsong]

That article on Fiona Horne was pretty shady - I mean, not the article itself, but about Fiona. I'm rereading her Wicca primer right now and I'm noticing that she clearly makes no distinction between Witchcraft and Wicca. However, the book reads mostly like an autobiography rather than an instructional text, so at least the reader can be like, "Oh, so that's what *she* thinks." Some of her stuff is interesting and hopeful but most of it's just a load of autobiographical junk.

As for Silver Ravenwolf though - I just finished To Ride A Silver Broomstick. It was my first time ever reading any of her work. I consider myself to be an advanced practicioner at this point, but wanted something kind of light to read and decided I might as well familiarize myself with her before going with the demonizing. Her book was actually very informative and there were few errors in her teachings (according to the basic tenents of Wicca). I like that she included The 13 Principles Of Wiccan Belief in the first couple of pages. She also has a lot of helpful info on practicing in a limited setting - which is what I have to do because I live with Bible thumpers.

Interesting to say the least... I'm going to check out Fiona's site now and see what's on there. Oh, and about the CD... I found a used copy in the local buy/trade CD store for just three bucks, so I bought it. It's actually really cool. The first song is a guided circle casting set to music. By guided, I mean that she says the invocations and such. I think it would be very helpful to new learners and I will recommend it to my students. As for Fiona's book, I won't be recommending that, however I have no problem with Silver's. It's just too bad that there isn't more theology in Silver's work.

[Freyja Witchsong]

I have a feeling it's not because they're fake, but instead it's how they present themselves and market themselves. They both market themselves in a very pop/urban way... mostly towards youth. The content of their books has a flair of eclecticism that is not backed up anywhere and when they came out of the broom closet, as you said, it was in a very highly popularized, mainstream way. They commercialized on their spirituality in a way that has come across as being not as serious as others.

I mean don't get me wrong, I think Fiona is fabulous... but by comparison to other works like say: Starhawk or Raymond Buckland or even Dion Fortune... you cannot place her in the same category as them. She is a beginners level, and I think a lot of people who criticise her are individuals who operate on a higher level. Ofcourse that being said, we don;t know her like you said, and it could be down to a lot of over-commercialization. But, that could be why some people criticize. I wouldnt go as far as 'hate' because if anyone truly hates an author then they have a bit of an issue.

Agreed. Starhawk and Scott Cunningham and such are at a far, far higher level. In terms of teaching, I feel like Silver's book is a good first read but MUST be followed by a more serious and experienced author. It's a good introduction to the Wiccan version of the Craft though.

[Nox_Mortus]

Agreed. Starhawk and Scott Cunningham and such are at a far, far higher level. In terms of teaching, I feel like Silver's book is a good first read but MUST be followed by a more serious and experienced author. It's a good introduction to the Wiccan version of the Craft though.

No it isn't, a lot of her information on Wicca is very off, she also lied about having a traditional lineage (or at the very least has no idea how traditional initiatory lineages work) which is an especailly big strike in the Wicca category.

[Freyja Witchsong]

Some of it is off, I agree. But for the mostpart it's not too bad. Certainly not bad like Fiona's work. And as for the lying thing... I'm hardly surprised at all. I mean, how many dang things has Fiona said that are just insane? And would Silver be much different since she's mostly a bit of a TV Witch as well? So yeah, thanks for correcting me cause I guess I was giving her a few more props than are deserved. While reading To Ride A Silver Broomstick, I often times would find myself saying, "What? That's not right."

[Toby Stimpson]

Agreed. Starhawk and Scott Cunningham and such are at a far, far higher level. In terms of teaching, I feel like Silver's book is a good first read but MUST be followed by a more serious and experienced author. It's a good introduction to the Wiccan version of the Craft though.

Well I think thats all subjective really, because Silver's books may seem to be far too eclectic by people of Recon or traditional backgrounds. Likewise, some people may find some thing helpful, but for a true consensus of whether or not it's a good book I think the views and feelings of those people who continue in the Craft will matter because they will have more experienced views. The reality is a lot of teenagers who may have limited funds will not have access to the same kinds of materials as older people with disposable income and credit cards (to purchase books online). And so the the true qaulity of cheaper, easily accesible books is a subject that must be taken up. For a true idea of whether or not Silver Ravenwolf's books help or not, we would have to look at the statistics of how many teens or beginners buy those books and then continue in the Craft and how many decide to not become Wiccan or Pagan.

[Freyja Witchsong]

Good point. Also, one thing about Fiona and Silver - in my opinion, it's not their faults who chooses to read their books and do whatever with the information. If their literature is being amassed by the teen audience and a bunch of kids are running around screaming, "Fear me! I'm a Witch!" --that's the stupidity of the reader, not the author. Although authors SHOULD try NOT to publish material that can be taken the wrong way, although that's never possible. For example, The Bible.

[Caitlin.ann]

Good point. Also, one thing about Fiona and Silver - in my opinion, it's not their faults who chooses to read their books and do whatever with the information. If their literature is being amassed by the teen audience and a bunch of kids are running around screaming, "Fear me! I'm a Witch!" --that's the stupidity of the reader, not the author. Although authors SHOULD try NOT to publish material that can be taken the wrong way, although that's never possible. For example, The Bible.
You can't say they're blameless. When any author writes there is a target audience in mind. Fiona and $ilver Ravenwolf target teens, tweens and those who are new and ignorant (note the terminology, I am not calling anyone stupid) of Wicca. Not only that but if I do recall correctly there isn't a whole lot of explanation made about the differences between Wicca, Witchcraft and paganism in their books. It seems to be a one size fits all type of deal. Additionally I find that Ravenwolf likes to skew factual historical information, something I can not endorse on any level ever.

[Toby Stimpson]

Good point. Also, one thing about Fiona and Silver - in my opinion, it's not their faults who chooses to read their books and do whatever with the information. If their literature is being amassed by the teen audience and a bunch of kids are running around screaming, "Fear me! I'm a Witch!" --that's the stupidity of the reader, not the author. Although authors SHOULD try NOT to publish material that can be taken the wrong way, although that's never possible. For example, The Bible.

well, thats kind of a fallacy in it's self because we cannot compare the Bible of over 3000 years to... 'To ride a silver broom stick'. We can't. I think that to say that it's not the authors fault would be also problematic because if those books are the only thing the beginners read, then obviously there is something causing that. Thats the main qaurrel people seem to have with the books is that they paint the authors as fake, two dimensional individuals with 2 dimensional writing. That being said, if you look in any religion you'll find the same two dimensional writing. Obligation is an interesting thing though because freedom of speech and thought would suggest that fiona and silver don't owe anything to the Wiccan community... bu they do, as does any author. If they decide to take the wiccan label for themselves, but write stuff that is so contrary to Wicca... then I would say the wiccan community has a right to backlash and say that they are fake and criticise them. On the other hand, personal gnosis is also thrown about quite a lot as an excuse for the acceptable inclusion of Unicorns and little pink Fairies as acceptable totems of religious devotion. So, I think that the very open nature of Paganism and Wicca would allow even a couple of really bad authors who have been mass marketed because they are normal enough to be branded, but exotic enough to be put on a plate infront of rebellious teenagers looking for control in their life.

lol, the issue is a lot bigger than just Fiona and Silver... and could go around in circles and circles. Hypocrisy overlayed with justification, overlayed with reality, overlayed with hypocrisy...etc.,

[Toby Stimpson]

It seems to be a one size fits all type of deal. Additionally I find that Ravenwolf likes to skew factual historical information, something I can not endorse on any level ever.

yes, the whole burning times myth...yes. How many times is this going to crop up and bite Wicca in the butt?

[Caitlin.ann]

yes, the whole burning times myth...yes. How many times is this going to crop up and bite Wicca in the butt?

To clarify I'm not blaming Wicca for that at all, I'm blaming Ravenwolf. I know a great deal of learned Wiccans know the difference between historical fact and fiction. And surely she has made more mistakes regarding historical accuracy than that however I'm not her biggest fan and can't stomach her work so I can't elaborate much further.

[Toby Stimpson]

To throw this into the discussion. I'm not entirely sure if everyone would agree with the authors points but I think it's an interesting read.

http://www.geocities.com/septegram/opinions/silverbroomstick/ToRideASilverBroomstick.html

[Toby Stimpson]

To clarify I'm not blaming Wicca for that at all, I'm blaming Ravenwolf. I know a great deal of learned Wiccans know the difference between historical fact and fiction. And surely she has made more mistakes regarding historical accuracy than that however I'm not her biggest fan and can't stomach her work so I can't elaborate much further.

Oh nono, I know...I wasn't by any means raising this as an issue. But I do know that a LOT of earlier work, solid, advanced Pagan writing fell into the myth of the Burning times and it still crops up all the time seemingly everywhere. accuracy is an issue with a lot of pagan authors and writers out there. well, quite a few atleast.

[Freyja Witchsong]

Wasn't it 40,000 individuals killed as opposed to 6,000,000, as Silver says? Also, has anyone noticed that she only purports this myth in her literature for teens? She never makes these claims in her books geared at adult audiences. Suspicious.

[Toby Stimpson]

Wasn't it 40,000 individuals killed as opposed to 6,000,000, as Silver says? Also, has anyone noticed that she only purports this myth in her literature for teens? She never makes these claims in her books geared at adult audiences. Suspicious.

I don';t know enough about her work to say. But with that in mind, could this be one reason why people criticise her? That being said, To ride a silver broomstick was published in 1993, and we know that the early 1990s was the time before the internet, with mass propogation and communication. It might just be that at that time it was easy to make the mistake of 6 million as it was so prevalent. Some very established Pagan writers made the same mistake... but have in recent editions updated their books.

[Nox_Mortus]

Wasn't it 40,000 individuals killed as opposed to 6,000,000, as Silver says? Also, has anyone noticed that she only purports this myth in her literature for teens? She never makes these claims in her books geared at adult audiences. Suspicious.

yeah, 6,000,000 is the rough number of Jews killed during the Holocaust, which is probably where she got the number, killing that many people during the time of the medieval witch hunts would have decimated the population of Europe (which was still recovering from the black death)

I don';t know enough about her work to say. But with that in mind, could this be one reason why people criticise her? That being said, To ride a silver broomstick was published in 1993, and we know that the early 1990s was the time before the internet, with mass propogation and communication. It might just be that at that time it was easy to make the mistake of 6 million as it was so prevalent. Some very established Pagan writers made the same mistake... but have in recent editions updated their books.

Sure, but there's no real excuse for that big of an error, it may have been prevalent among certain circles, but a simple trip to the reference section of any library would have corrected it quite easily, which you'd think one would do if they where writing a book like that. It's not like that sort of information was hard to come by.

[Freyja Witchsong]

To throw this into the discussion. I'm not entirely sure if everyone would agree with the authors points but I think it's an interesting read.

http://www.geocities.com/septegram/opinions/silverbroomstick/ToRideASilverBroomstick.html

This is a really thought provoking article. Is it true that a wand and an athame cannot be used interchangeably? I was taught my teacher that they are interchangeable in their usage of casting a circle, cutting a door or imbuing an object with power even though what they technically represent is different.

[Nox_Mortus]

This is a really thought provoking article. Is it true that a wand and an athame cannot be used interchangeably? I was taught my teacher that they are interchangeable in their usage of casting a circle, cutting a door or imbuing an object with power even though what they technically represent is different.

In Wicca, generally yes, they are not interchangeable, although eclectic practices vary a great deal.

[Freyja Witchsong]

My teacher was VERY eclectic. What is the more Ceremonial belief on wands and athames?

[Nox_Mortus]

My teacher was VERY eclectic. What is the more Ceremonial belief on wands and athames?

Athames as such don't really exist in most ceremonial magic, you would generally use a sword, or one of many different types of knives, either way the uses are extremely variable although the sword usually represents air (or fire) and the wand (also with many variable uses) represents fire (or air), there's really no unified ceremonial view because there are several different schools and philosophies under the Ceremonial Magic umbrella. Some don't use either of these tools.

[Freyja Witchsong]

Interesting. Thanks. Thanks to everybody who participated in this thread.

[Æon Flux]

I don't really have a problem with Fiona Horne, but that's probably because I always thought that her books were autobiography and a look into her own personal version of the craft rather than a step by step guide.
I have a problem with Silver because she usually makes herself sound like she's got all the answers and it's her way or no way.
Fiona, to me, always just felt more like "this is my way and this is how I do it, if you want to learn more about the craft, pick these books up".
But for people who are looking for solid "facts" (which, in my opinion, there are none when it comes to the craft) neither are very good.

In fact, I think that the majority of the books that have been published the last two decades are bad if you're looking for the hardcore, serious information.

I don't like taking things all to seriously, so sometimes I rather enjoy Fionas little descriptions about her life and her craft.
To each their own, I say.

[aranarose]

People don't like them because their books are fluffbunny factories.

Shaky research, and out for money.

People who have these books as their first introduction to the craft are at a serious disadvantage, because if they want to go any further and move onto any deeper study, they then have to unlearn many of the things that they were introduced to in those books, and that's just very couterproductive.

[Morgane]

People don't like them because their books are fluffbunny factories.

Shaky research, and out for money.

People who have these books as their first introduction to the craft are at a serious disadvantage, because if they want to go any further and move onto any deeper study, they then have to unlearn many of the things that they were introduced to in those books, and that's just very couterproductive.

I couldn't have said it better, no matter how hard I tried! :uhhuhuh:

[Phoenix Blue]

I think saying they're fake is a little pretentious considering none of us really know them personally.
If you don't like the answer, maybe you shouldn't have asked the question. In Silver's case, her writing is disingenuous and bigoted toward non-Pagans (Citation (http://wicca.timerift.net/ravenwolf.shtml)). There's also the matter of the "Teen Witch Kit" she sold a few years ago, which smacked to me of selling out.

As for Fiona Horne, *shrugs* the word "poser" comes to mind. Vanessa Carlton's Wiccan, too, but you don't see her trying to market herself through it.

[WitchJezebel]

people don't like them because their books are fluffbunny factories.

Shaky research, and out for money.

People who have these books as their first introduction to the craft are at a serious disadvantage, because if they want to go any further and move onto any deeper study, they then have to unlearn many of the things that they were introduced to in those books, and that's just very couterproductive.

qft

[Lunacie]

This is a really thought provoking article. Is it true that a wand and an athame cannot be used interchangeably? I was taught my teacher that they are interchangeable in their usage of casting a circle, cutting a door or imbuing an object with power even though what they technically represent is different.

The traditional view of the difference between the Athame and the Wand is that the Athame is used as a cutting tool (duh) and therefore when used to cast a circle it cuts it apart from the mundane world. And as a cutting tool it is used to command energy and spirits. Cutting a doorway in a circle is definately a task for a cutting tool such as an athame. It would command energy to empower an object.

The Wand however is more of a welcoming tool. It can also be used to cast a circle but would have more of an effect of welcoming a special mindset where we step out of the mundane world. So it welcomes energy and spirits. Not really a good tool for cutting a doorway though. It would welcome energy into a prepared object.

.

[Pink_sheep]

I read Fiona Horne's book because I got a second hand copy cheap - I just couldn't take it seriously! She had a bunch of "witchy" beauty treatments that included something like "Kali's wicked facial cleanser" - I'm all for making your own bath stuff, but the way she tried to make it "witchier" just came across like a bad joke.

I seem to remember (the book's at the bottom of a big stack and I'm too lazy to dig it out right now!) there being a section on making yourself "more magical" in just a week. I didn't like that bit at all. Although I don't think she said it would, it did come across as sort of a "follow these steps to be a REAL WITCH in just 7 days!"

[LavenderLady]

I've read To Ride a Silver Broomstick and Teen Witch by Silver Ravenwolf. I find her somewhat helpful in some subjects, but I don't like how in Teen Witch she gives the impression that Wicca witches are the only witches there are and the whole "REAL WITCHES...." list. "Real Witches don't wear disgusting nailpolish color, or change their hair color, or...a bunch of unrelated things!" :toofless: I'm paraphrasing here!

This website here brought up all my issues with her books:

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/vanthal/608/id57.htm

[Louisvillian]

Because they're fake?
What it boils down to is this.
SRW is an unbelievable twit whose grasp of history and logic is that of a four-year-old. And Horne is far too market-driven and superficial.

Now, granted, writers need to eat, too. But money should not be the only goal. Especially if their books sling nothing but inaccurate and vapid crap.

[Whitewolf]

I think Silver Raven Wolf and Fiona are disliked because they give people the wrong information about Wicca. If you are going to write a book on the subject, know what you are doing.

[David19]

I think saying they're fake is a little pretentious considering none of us really know them personally.

On one hand, I would have to agree with one of the previous posts saying that they have good beginner material but their work isn't the only thing a person should read. Certainly one shouldn't read those two books and immediately call themselves, "Witch."

But also, when you notice how much information they do present on the Craft, it's hard to say it's all just a bunch of bs. Who goes that far out of their way to study and learn so that they can publish their own material? Certainly it's possible, but it doesn't seem that plausible.

I'm now going to read the link someone posted on Fiona Horne. Perhaps my mind will change but perhaps not because I don't know that much about her.


Because they severely misrepresent Wicca, and give people a lot of wrong ideas, also they tend to promote shoddy history and treat it more like a fashion statement than a religion (Horne is especially guilty of this) actually in both cases thier work focuses far to much on spells and not very much on the religious aspect or on ethics, both of which should come before spells.

I personally don't really like SRW's books that much, just 'cause it's full of fluff, she states as fact (not just her opinion, which would be a different matter) that Wicca and witchcraft are the same thing when they are not (a witch is someone with magical powers, a Wiccan is someone who follows Wicca, worships specific deities, celebrates holidays, feels it makes sense to them, and gives them a place in the universe). Fiona Horne, I actually don't mind, I brought one of her books (I can't remember the title), but, it wasn't really for me, so, I gave it away to a charity shop, but, that said, I have looked through some of her other books, and they seem quite ok and some parts seem cool. The reason why I don't have a problem with her is she, IMO, helps project a good image of Pagans, that we do look normal, I mean, if you've seen Fiona Horne, she does look like the type of person who will walk down the street and turn heads, she looks like the type of person who enjoys mainstream things (e.g. the clothes, instead of hippy or Goth clothes, etc). Anyway, that's just me, but, I much prefer Horne to SRW, but, anyway, if you can get something good out of either of them, then good for you, that's all that matters, for you personally.




I have a feeling it's not because they're fake, but instead it's how they present themselves and market themselves. They both market themselves in a very pop/urban way... mostly towards youth. The content of their books has a flair of eclecticism that is not backed up anywhere and when they came out of the broom closet, as you said, it was in a very highly popularized, mainstream way. They commercialized on their spirituality in a way that has come across as being not as serious as others.

I mean don't get me wrong, I think Fiona is fabulous... but by comparison to other works like say: Starhawk or Raymond Buckland or even Dion Fortune... you cannot place her in the same category as them. She is a beginners level, and I think a lot of people who criticise her are individuals who operate on a higher level. Ofcourse that being said, we don;t know her like you said, and it could be down to a lot of over-commercialization. But, that could be why some people criticize. I wouldnt go as far as 'hate' because if anyone truly hates an author then they have a bit of an issue.

I definitely wouldn't put Horne on par with Fortune, Fortune seemed to be truly remarkable, her magical feats were definitely, IMO, more advanced, not too sure about Buckland or Starhawk as I've never read their stuff.

[MankyCat]

Agreed. Starhawk and Scott Cunningham and such are at a far, far higher level. In terms of teaching, I feel like Silver's book is a good first read but MUST be followed by a more serious and experienced author. It's a good introduction to the Wiccan version of the Craft though.

Are they? I always views Starhawk and Cunningham as pretty basic stuff. :weirdsmil

[Phoenix Blue]

Are they? I always views Starhawk and Cunningham as pretty basic stuff. :weirdsmil
That's because they are, generally speaking. Or else our standards have really lowered.

[Glowy]

If you don't like the answer, maybe you shouldn't have asked the question. In Silver's case, her writing is disingenuous and bigoted toward non-Pagans (Citation (http://wicca.timerift.net/ravenwolf.shtml)). There's also the matter of the "Teen Witch Kit" she sold a few years ago, which smacked to me of selling out.

As for Fiona Horne, *shrugs* the word "poser" comes to mind. Vanessa Carlton's Wiccan, too, but you don't see her trying to market herself through it.


The teen witch kit- with the magic acne cream.. oye

[Astara Seague]

when I read an author I take what I want /believe and leave the rest behind..
everyone has a right to their own opinion and way of practicing..
some call it fluffy bunny but others feel more comfortable with that type of practice..
as for teens..Silver took on what theya re mostly concerned about..love life and acne..etc..
doesnt make her wrong..
I dont know about that Fiona Horn.. I havent read any of her stuff..
but I think Silver has a place...but of course not everyone is going to like it

[Nox_Mortus]

when I read an author I take what I want /believe and leave the rest behind..
everyone has a right to their own opinion and way of practicing..
some call it fluffy bunny but others feel more comfortable with that type of practice..
as for teens..Silver took on what theya re mostly concerned about..love life and acne..etc..
doesnt make her wrong..
I dont know about that Fiona Horn.. I havent read any of her stuff..
but I think Silver has a place...but of course not everyone is going to like it

It does when she presents that sort of crap as Wiccan practice. Had she come out with the book and not mentioned Wicca or other religious issues and just presented at as a primer on magic aimed at teens, a lot of people wouldn't have as big of a problem.

[Lunacie]

I personally don't really like SRW's books that much, just 'cause it's full of fluff, she states as fact (not just her opinion, which would be a different matter) that Wicca and witchcraft are the same thing when they are not (a witch is someone with magical powers, a Wiccan is someone who follows Wicca, worships specific deities, celebrates holidays, feels it makes sense to them, and gives them a place in the universe). Fiona Horne, I actually don't mind, I brought one of her books (I can't remember the title), but, it wasn't really for me, so, I gave it away to a charity shop, but, that said, I have looked through some of her other books, and they seem quite ok and some parts seem cool. The reason why I don't have a problem with her is she, IMO, helps project a good image of Pagans, that we do look normal, I mean, if you've seen Fiona Horne, she does look like the type of person who will walk down the street and turn heads, she looks like the type of person who enjoys mainstream things (e.g. the clothes, instead of hippy or Goth clothes, etc). Anyway, that's just me, but, I much prefer Horne to SRW, but, anyway, if you can get something good out of either of them, then good for you, that's all that matters, for you personally.





I definitely wouldn't put Horne on par with Fortune, Fortune seemed to be truly remarkable, her magical feats were definitely, IMO, more advanced, not too sure about Buckland or Starhawk as I've never read their stuff.

Wow.

I thought you'd been hanging around here long enough to have learned something, but "a witch is someone with magical powers"? :wtf:

A witch learns to work with nature (herbs, gems, energy, etc.) in order to do witchcraft or magic. A Wiccan is a witch who follows the Wiccan religion.

I know, there are some Wiccans these days who say they don't have to do magic in order to be Wiccan. I guess it's possible to believe in magic but not practice it yourself and call yourself Wiccan, but to me magic is one of the fundamental practices of the religion that Gerald Gardner put together - which came to be known as Wicca to distinguish it from other forms of witchcraft.

[Voyager]

Well said Toby Stimpson.

I have never read Fiona Horne so don't qualify to comment.

I have read a few books by Silver Ravenwolf and they have helped me since I practice solitary. Although, I do feel she caters mostly to young teens.

It is true, you have to branch out and I have read Cunningham, I started w/Starhawk, Buckland, Cabot, Farrar and others.

When you practice solitary books are important for learning and advancement - and sites such as this where I have you good people!

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Agreed...Starhawk , and Scott Cunningham , are basic ,
for many , today...

However , Raymond Buckland , and Dion Fortune , are
basic , to me...

We all have our levels , experience , and wisdom , when
we truly apply ourselves...

I find bullshit in books by those , many in the magical
community put on pedestals today...

But that is perception , by knowledge , and experience...

Which takes true dedication , and perserverance , no matter
what the tradition , or path...

All find their way...you may learn , even following schlock...

Learning is the important thing...

Though , one must grow beyond , with eyes wide open...

Not stop at the entry level...and *that* is the danger...

Those who write for entry level...or a few steps beyond...

Are under greater scrutiny...for good reason...:uhhuhuh:


That's because they are, generally speaking. Or else our standards have really lowered.

[Freyja Witchsong]

I don't really have a problem with Fiona Horne, but that's probably because I always thought that her books were autobiography and a look into her own personal version of the craft rather than a step by step guide.
I have a problem with Silver because she usually makes herself sound like she's got all the answers and it's her way or no way.
Fiona, to me, always just felt more like "this is my way and this is how I do it, if you want to learn more about the craft, pick these books up".
But for people who are looking for solid "facts" (which, in my opinion, there are none when it comes to the craft) neither are very good.

In fact, I think that the majority of the books that have been published the last two decades are bad if you're looking for the hardcore, serious information.

I don't like taking things all to seriously, so sometimes I rather enjoy Fionas little descriptions about her life and her craft.
To each their own, I say.

I tend to agree with this. I feel like Fiona's work is mostly autobiographical, and, as with any book, take what you like and leave the rest. And, we definitely DO need people who look and act like "normal people" as Wiccans or Pagans so that we're not automatically pegged as hippies and goths in people's minds and mental imagery. One more point on Fiona: her book is called Witch: A Magickal Journey, and as far as I can tell, she's telling us about *her* magickal journey more than anything else in the book.

[Philosophia]

I tend to agree with this. I feel like Fiona's work is mostly autobiographical, and, as with any book, take what you like and leave the rest. And, we definitely DO need people who look and act like "normal people" as Wiccans or Pagans so that we're not automatically pegged as hippies and goths in people's minds and mental imagery. One more point on Fiona: her book is called Witch: A Magickal Journey, and as far as I can tell, she's telling us about *her* magickal journey more than anything else in the book.

Even if it is, there are still factual issues involved in the book that make it less than savory. It is aimed as a beginner's book (on the front cover it states "a guide to modern witchcraft") even if it is autobiographical, which is a problem. Though I don't know where you got "acting like normal people" from.

[Freyja Witchsong]

By "normal," I just meant that a lot of people that I personally know in real life who are (sometimes Wiccan and sometimes of another Trad) Witches, tend to dress in black, with capes and sometimes in medieval garb. I'm not getting down anyone's freedom to dress the way they want or however feels spiritual to them, but I also think that it kind of categorizes Witches in society's mind as people who just can't let the Renaissance Faire come to an end. ...Oh yeah, I do agree with you that the lack of information and the incorrect information in these authors' works is a problem, however, if it's written autobiographically, it's not the same as a how-to guide that's totally inaccurate. Plus, I feel like giving people the freedom to worship as they please is key, although claiming a bizarre personal path is "Wiccan" is still an issue.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

I dress quite normal , thank you very much , for who I am ,
and what I do for a living...

Teach the Faery Tradition...

The rest of people , by my thinking , are the "abnormal"...

Brainwashed automatons of "modern society" , wearing
what they are told is in fashion , or "normal"...

Oh , gods save me !

...:smileroll...

http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3443810&postcount=4975



By "normal," I just meant that a lot of people that I personally know in real life who are (sometimes Wiccan and sometimes of another Trad) Witches, tend to dress in black, with capes and sometimes in medieval garb.

[Attila_the_Honey]

I have a problem with Fiona Horne because she uses the Craft solely for her own commercial gain. She seems to know little to nothing about Wicca and presents her opinions as the way that people are supposed to practice it. She sells spells and kits predominantly aimed towards teens because she knows it will make her the most money and for no other reason. She doesn't respect Wicca or any other aspect of paganism, she only uses it as her cash cow and as a means to try and obtain more fame. She has absolutely zero credibility in my eyes... I've not read anything of Ravenwolf's so I can't comment much, but she too seems to have fallen by the wayside of commercialization.

I understand that some people have a desire to reach a larger more "mainstream" audience (for whatever reason), but there's a wrong way and a right way to go about doing that and there's a balance there that has to be maintained to also be able to maintain one's integrity.

[David19]

Wow.

I thought you'd been hanging around here long enough to have learned something, but "a witch is someone with magical powers"? :wtf:

A witch learns to work with nature (herbs, gems, energy, etc.) in order to do witchcraft or magic. A Wiccan is a witch who follows the Wiccan religion.

Generally, that's what I meant, a witch is someone who works magic, however you define it, whether it's magic from yourself, energy around you, or whatever. There's no religious element to it, there can be, if you, personally, want there to be, but, it's possible to be an Atheist and a witch, a Christian and a witch, or a Satanic witch, Wiccan witch, etc.

Just like the author of whywiccanssuck.com says (http://web.archive.org/web/20011220064953/http://whywiccanssuck.com/):


Witch
Someone with magical powers. I repeat, someone with magical powers.
Changing your religion to "Wicca" does NOT make you a witch. Religion has nothing to do with it. (How many Xians have you met who can change water into wine?)


I know, there are some Wiccans these days who say they don't have to do magic in order to be Wiccan. I guess it's possible to believe in magic but not practice it yourself and call yourself Wiccan, but to me magic is one of the fundamental practices of the religion that Gerald Gardner put together - which came to be known as Wicca to distinguish it from other forms of witchcraft.

You can accept magic may exist, but, not practice it.

[thecraftywitch]

My problem with Silver Ravenwolf is the fact that she will release a "New" book and have it be an old book under a new name. I mean really are we the unwashed, so short of memory that we can't tell the difference ?!

[Lunacie]

Generally, that's what I meant, a witch is someone who works magic, however you define it, whether it's magic from yourself, energy around you, or whatever. There's no religious element to it, there can be, if you, personally, want there to be, but, it's possible to be an Atheist and a witch, a Christian and a witch, or a Satanic witch, Wiccan witch, etc.

Just like the author of whywiccanssuck.com says (http://web.archive.org/web/20011220064953/http://whywiccanssuck.com/):





You can accept magic may exist, but, not practice it.


I don't agree that the definition of a witch is "someone with magical powers." I would say that a witch is someone who works to develop magical abilities. The first way sounds like witches are born. I think anyone can learn to become a witch, but it takes knowledge and practice.


I accept that some people believe you don't actually have to practice magic to be a Wiccan, but I think they either don't really understand what magic is, or they don't understand what Wicca is. My opinion of course, others may disagree.

[Louisvillian]

By "normal," I just meant that a lot of people that I personally know in real life who are (sometimes Wiccan and sometimes of another Trad) Witches, tend to dress in black, with capes and sometimes in medieval garb...but I also think that it kind of categorizes Witches in society's mind as people who just can't let the Renaissance Faire come to an end.
While I agree that we need pagans that don't look and act ridiculous, it shouldn't fall on twits like Fiona Horne to do that. She's making things worse by being an immature, commercialistic idiot.

[Phoenix Blue]

By "normal," I just meant that a lot of people that I personally know in real life who are (sometimes Wiccan and sometimes of another Trad) Witches, tend to dress in black, with capes and sometimes in medieval garb.
Are you sure this has nothing to do with the fact that you live in a college town?

[MankyCat]

However , Raymond Buckland , and Dion Fortune , are
basic , to me...

We all have our levels , experience , and wisdom , when
we truly apply ourselves...


I was actually tempted to mention Buckland. He and Cunningham were the authors of the books I first read when I started. It's a toss up with actually was first though. Conway fits into this level too.

The problem is, even though we all start somewhere, there's better points to start at than others. Ravenwolf was dismally low on the scale even for when I first started. Horne? Well, I have no knowledge of her.

[MankyCat]

By "normal," I just meant that a lot of people that I personally know in real life who are (sometimes Wiccan and sometimes of another Trad) Witches, tend to dress in black, with capes and sometimes in medieval garb.


I had to stop myself from laughing and would probably get myself in trouble if I ran into those "normal" witches. Most I have dealt with save their historically based 'garb' for LARPs, cons, and festivals (and are usually wearing Victorian, steampunk, or pirate/wench/scottish/gypsy/noble stuff... definitely not going for the stereotypical witch gear).

I, personally, wear normal clothes... hell, I've doing workings in a 3 piece office apropriate business suit because that's what I happened to be wearing at the time (after work).

Definitely sounds like you are talking about college or HS students that are trying to set themselves apart, "Look at me! Look at me! Why are people looking at me?!?" Also sounds like a bunch of goth inclined kids (or kids of similar subcultures) who are dabbling in in witchly or wiccan doings and don't quite understand the idea of discresion. Not that I have a problem with it, but it definitely has given you the wrong impression.

[NamedForTheMoon]

If I can add to the list of authors, what do people think of Ellen Dugan's books? They're by Llewellyn Worldwide... I've heard that Llewellyn as a publisher gets discounted a lot because they publish Raven Silverwolf and Fiona Horne.

[Caitlin.ann]

If I can add to the list of authors, what do people think of Ellen Dugan's books? They're by Llewellyn Worldwide... I've heard that Llewellyn as a publisher gets discounted a lot because they publish Raven Silverwolf and Fiona Horne.
I really like some of Dugan's work. Unlike Ravenwolf I haven't read anything she's written which skews historical fact and her writings are of her own beliefs which she is entitled to. I take what I want from her writings and leave what I don't. Some things she has written however make me view some of her work as slightly fluffy.

[Caitlin.ann]

I had to stop myself from laughing and would probably get myself in trouble if I ran into those "normal" witches. Most I have dealt with save their historically based 'garb' for LARPs, cons, and festivals (and are usually wearing Victorian, steampunk, or pirate/wench/scottish/gypsy/noble stuff... definitely not going for the stereotypical witch gear).

I, personally, wear normal clothes... hell, I've doing workings in a 3 piece office apropriate business suit because that's what I happened to be wearing at the time (after work).

Definitely sounds like you are talking about college or HS students that are trying to set themselves apart, "Look at me! Look at me! Why are people looking at me?!?" Also sounds like a bunch of goth inclined kids (or kids of similar subcultures) who are dabbling in in witchly or wiccan doings and don't quite understand the idea of discresion. Not that I have a problem with it, but it definitely has given you the wrong impression.

Please guys. I'm in college, most of my friends are in college and we don't act like this. Don't stoop to stereotyping all of us because of a few bad apples. Note the person I am quoting is not the only person I'm referring to so don't feel singled out. I dress normally, so does everyone else I know.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

You know when I think of dressing the part I can't help but think of Lorrie Cabot's group in Old Salem and their wearing of the traditional notion of a Witch's garb. The goth's for the most part I see using it as simple shock value and not much more.

Since I have only read Silver's book 'To Ride A Silver Broomstick" that is all I can comment on.

While there are a few nuggets of value in it I find that there is so much chaff that the task really doesn't support the results of reading it. I'll just leave it at that.

[HetHert]

This may have already been said: I find the best way to put Silver Ravenwolf and Horne in perspective is to do alot more reading on Wicca, Witchcraft, Magic, Alchemy, the Occult and the like. Once you've submerged your brain in all the subject matters that surround occultism you get a very broad and solid understanding of where and from what Wicca developed, the older practices and roots of the Western magical tradition as well as much more in the lore of magic and the occult from the ancient to the present. There's a greater world of knowledge available and once you wrap your mind around it it will help you understand to a greater degree why there are varied opinions on EVERY author.

[MankyCat]

Please guys. I'm in college, most of my friends are in college and we don't act like this. Don't stoop to stereotyping all of us because of a few bad apples. Note the person I am quoting is not the only person I'm referring to so don't feel singled out. I dress normally, so does everyone else I know.

I wouldn't call them "bad apples". I dressed dark back then, not because I was a witch, but because it was my style at the time. I know and knew a good number of "kids" (god I am feeling old now) who dress like this as a means of expression during these periods of their lives. I've noticed that it's a very typical time for *some* people to go through that stage. Then again, it can be said that it's more common in NE USA too. It's not meant to be a "stereotyping" when people say such things, just a generalization of certain trends and not aimed at *everyone* who is, in fact, in college or HS.

It would be like saying that teenagers are brash. Yes, it's generalizing. Yes, there are mature teenagers out there. But yes, it is a known that teenagers do tend to be more brash than their 25, 35, or older counterparts.

[MankyCat]

[quote=MonSno_LeeDra;3991817]The goth's for the most part I see using it as simple shock value and not much more./quote]

Some, not all. There are people who simply like dressing that way because it makes them feel 'right'. Just like there are people who practice different spiritual or magical paths because it is right for them, and others who do it just to get shock response from others.

[Caitlin.ann]

I wouldn't call them "bad apples". I dressed dark back then, not because I was a witch, but because it was my style at the time. I know and knew a good number of "kids" (god I am feeling old now) who dress like this as a means of expression during these periods of their lives. I've noticed that it's a very typical time for *some* people to go through that stage. Then again, it can be said that it's more common in NE USA too. It's not meant to be a "stereotyping" when people say such things, just a generalization of certain trends and not aimed at *everyone* who is, in fact, in college or HS.

It would be like saying that teenagers are brash. Yes, it's generalizing. Yes, there are mature teenagers out there. But yes, it is a known that teenagers do tend to be more brash than their 25, 35, or older counterparts.

Yes I was referring to the capes and people who you mentioned in your earlier post. I've dressed goth, still do sometimes. Why is that a bad thing? For the most part I am very unnoticeable and thats how I like it.


Additionally a great deal of the people described are over thirty and not necessarily teens or college students.

[la tortuga]

Please guys. I'm in college, most of my friends are in college and we don't act like this. Don't stoop to stereotyping all of us because of a few bad apples. Note the person I am quoting is not the only person I'm referring to so don't feel singled out. I dress normally, so does everyone else I know.

Also, on top of what SS has pointed out, I'd like to add that there's a huge percentage of older people (middle-aged) who dress up in goth attire and claim to be Wiccan, so it's not just exclusive to teenagers or young adults, it's just a percentage of people in general, so it really boggles me when younger people tend to get the shaft because of that.

However, I have noticed that a lot of the time the Gothic and Wiccan subcultures seem to converge in some very weird places, and I don't know if this is just because Goths are interested in Wicca or vice-a-versa, but needless to say I have not met someone in person who was legitimately both. I tend to stay far away from both communities around here, though, so it's kind of hard to say whether it's my skewed experience or a fact of life in general. However, I'm wondering if anyone else has encountered a wonderful folly of a book called Goth Craft? My buddy, Mark, and I absolutely love that book. It's a riot, and always there when we go to Border's :thumbsup:

Okay, so to answer the OP, because I haven't yet with reading the entire thread...

I have not read anything of Fiona Horne's, and well given my path in life, I probably am not likely to at all.

I have read some of SRW's stuff, and I must say I was not impressed. I was incredibly excited about it because I was raised in a Wiccan family and most of my information came from being taught by my mother and grandmother, and limited amount of reading on the subject. The typical authors were Scott Cunningham or Margot Adler. I didn't get into Buckland's Big Blue or anything until I hit high school. So, one year when I was in high school, my grandmother got me SRW's Teen Witch and her Solitary Practitioner's BOS.

I was not pleased with them at all. I was reading through them and thought 'Well this is all rather stupid, isn't it?' and put them down. Perhaps it's because I didn't have the same interests as the general typical audience for those books, I don't know. For a fifteen-year-old, I had quite the plate with my baby brother just being born and having to help my disabled mother, so needless to say I found most of Teen Witch rather useless, uninteresting, and honestly immature. I was so disappointed with that book that I never really bothered to go too far with the other one, either, and I just left it at that. I haven't even bothered to re-gift them to anyone.

[Galen]

This argument is far too similar to the bickering over traditions. It's stupid and going no where. In the end, it just makes the Wiccan community look even worse than before it started.

Le sigh.

[Caitlin.ann]

This argument is far too similar to the bickering over traditions. It's stupid and going no where. In the end, it just makes the Wiccan community look even worse than before it started.

Le sigh.

I disagree. A great deal of people seem to be aware of Ravenwolf and Horne and how their style of writing is filled with inaccuracies, and aimed towards children and making money and little to do with religion. I think pointing out these things to people who are new to paganism helps immensely in making the community look better due to the greater number of educated pagans.

[alwaysfallingup]

To my mind, the beauty of Silver Ravenwolf and Fiona Horne (who's work I've never read, BTW), is that they're THERE. I think there is some value in having work that is available, whether I agree with all the content or not. It's good to know that someone in a rural area with a single bookstore in an hour's radius will be able to pick up a book and find something in it that may lead to a lifetime of learning and growing. These books, maybe, are not great works. They may be more like the Dick and Jane books of Wicca than War and Peace. They may not be representative of all beliefs and they may have a lot of flaws. But they open doors, and I think that there is value in that.

[Caitlin.ann]

There is very little value in that, especially with the days of the world wide web when accurate information can be easily accessable and free by simply logging onto the internet from anywhere in the world.

[Saints pet]

Yeah but I think it just keeps getting beaten up over and over. Stop beating the horse, it's already dead! :P

We already know when the topic comes up, where the conversation will head.
Although I still find myself unable to control the urge to read it anyway. Hehe.

[alwaysfallingup]

There is very little value in that, especially with the days of the world wide web when accurate information can be easily accessable and free by simply logging onto the internet from anywhere in the world.

I suppose that could be true, assuming one doesn't grow up in an area blighted by rural poverty where there is no public library and even the schools don't have the internet, like I did.

[Caitlin.ann]

Yeah but I think it just keeps getting beaten up over and over. Stop beating the horse, it's already dead! :P

We already know when the topic comes up, where the conversation will head.
Although I still find myself unable to control the urge to read it anyway. Hehe.
If you don't like it then stay out of the thread. I've heard this repeated many times by those in charge here. No one is making you watch the dead horse get beaten.

I suppose that could be true, assuming one doesn't grow up in an area blighted by rural poverty where there is no public library and even the schools don't have the internet, like I did.
If there is not even a public library then why on earth would there be much commercialism or a book store where such books are sold anyways? Highly unlikely.

[Phoenix Blue]

I think there is some value in having work that is available, whether I agree with all the content or not.
I think this is only true if the content is either (a) accurate or (b) located on the "fiction" shelves at the library and bookstore.


I suppose that could be true, assuming one doesn't grow up in an area blighted by rural poverty where there is no public library and even the schools don't have the internet, like I did.
In that case, books on religion probably aren't your top priority anyway. You'd have to weigh them against things like, oh, having a roof over your head and getting to eat something besides ketchup soup.


If you don't like it then stay out of the thread. I've heard this repeated many times by those in charge here.
Yup.

[Nox_Mortus]

Yeah but I think it just keeps getting beaten up over and over. Stop beating the horse, it's already dead! :P



it's really not though, anmd wont be until these books stop being hugely popular.


To my mind, the beauty of Silver Ravenwolf and Fiona Horne (who's work I've never read, BTW), is that they're THERE. I think there is some value in having work that is available, whether I agree with all the content or not. It's good to know that someone in a rural area with a single bookstore in an hour's radius will be able to pick up a book and find something in it that may lead to a lifetime of learning and growing. These books, maybe, are not great works. They may be more like the Dick and Jane books of Wicca than War and Peace. They may not be representative of all beliefs and they may have a lot of flaws. But they open doors, and I think that there is value in that.

The place where this fails is that there are a lot of better books out there, some of them even predate Ravenwolfs, and at least one (Bucklands Complete Book of Witchcraft) that's just as readily available.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Example...

Where I lived in Oregon , near Cottage Grove...

If you google , you would discover one is finally
going to open in September 2009...

But there was none when I was there in 2002 - 2004...

Now , I did not buy those books , but there were two
bookstores , with those books in there...

Eugene was over 30 miles away...some kids just did
not have the access...no internet cafes...not in the Grove...lol...

So...yeah...it does happen , still...there are far more remote
areas like that...internet not accessable to some , still...

Bookstores with books like that...rarer , now...still happens...:uhhuhuh:


If there is not even a public library then why on earth would there be much commercialism or a book store where such books are sold anyways? Highly unlikely.

[Caitlin.ann]

Nowhere, Shawn, did I say it doesn't happen. I said it was highly unlikely that a town would lack a public library of some sort yet sell books on witchcraft.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

And I was answering your highly unlikely...:thumbsup:


Nowhere, Shawn, did I say it doesn't happen. I said it was highly unlikely that a town would lack a public library of some sort yet sell books on witchcraft.

[Caitlin.ann]

And I was answering your highly unlikely...:thumbsup:

With an assumption that I said it 'doesn't happen'.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Untrue...get over it...or don't...:uhhuhuh:


With an assumption that I said it 'doesn't happen'.

[alwaysfallingup]

Nowhere, Shawn, did I say it doesn't happen. I said it was highly unlikely that a town would lack a public library of some sort yet sell books on witchcraft.

That's why I said in my original situation "within an hour's radius." I drove to the nearest university town, about 70 miles, to go and shop at Barnes and Noble and was thrilled to find any books at all on the subject of witchcraft. To be fair, the first book I read on the subject was The Spiral Dance. But looking at that small section in that B&N was really a thrill for me, and helped me see that there were resources available.

[Caitlin.ann]

That's why I said in my original situation "within an hour's radius." I drove to the nearest university town, about 70 miles, to go and shop at Barnes and Noble and was thrilled to find any books at all on the subject of witchcraft. To be fair, the first book I read on the subject was The Spiral Dance. But looking at that small section in that B&N was really a thrill for me, and helped me see that there were resources available.

And surely they had a wider selection than 'Ride a silver broomstick".

[David19]

I don't agree that the definition of a witch is "someone with magical powers." I would say that a witch is someone who works to develop magical abilities. The first way sounds like witches are born. I think anyone can learn to become a witch, but it takes knowledge and practice.

I think we must have got our wires crossed, 'cause, that's the same definition I believe a witch is, not someone born with magical powers/abilities (unless, they were really powerful in some past life or some kind of avatar), but, someone who works hard to develop those abilities. I think me and you are on the same wave length in that regard :) (maybe I just worded it wrong or something?).



I accept that some people believe you don't actually have to practice magic to be a Wiccan, but I think they either don't really understand what magic is, or they don't understand what Wicca is. My opinion of course, others may disagree.

I've heard it said before that, you don't have to practice magic as a Wiccan, but, you do have to accept or believe in it, as magic is a part of Wicca's worldview. I think one of the good things about Wicca is there's a lot of diversity so, there's something for everyone or most people anyway, for those that practice magic, and those that don't (it's similar to Judaism in that way, as there's something for everyone, and a lot of diversity).

[MankyCat]

It seems this discussion has gotten to the point of getting hung up on minute details regardless of the importance of those details.

:cutie:

[Lunacie]

I think we must have got our wires crossed, 'cause, that's the same definition I believe a witch is, not someone born with magical powers/abilities (unless, they were really powerful in some past life or some kind of avatar), but, someone who works hard to develop those abilities. I think me and you are on the same wave length in that regard :) (maybe I just worded it wrong or something?).

Yeah, I thought you had a better understanding that the simplistic way you worded it. But I've had a tough week and just responded to what I actually read. And I wanted to make it quite clear what my traditional Wiccan beliefs are on the topic.




I've heard it said before that, you don't have to practice magic as a Wiccan, but, you do have to accept or believe in it, as magic is a part of Wicca's worldview. I think one of the good things about Wicca is there's a lot of diversity so, there's something for everyone or most people anyway, for those that practice magic, and those that don't (it's similar to Judaism in that way, as there's something for everyone, and a lot of diversity).

I think there can be quite a bit of diversity, but there should be (and are) some common factors that make Wicca different from anything else. To me one of those things is using magic to change ourselves and the world around us in a favorable way. Those who feel that magic and spells are scary or something like that often don't realize that casting a very basic circle is using magic.

[Caitlin.ann]

It seems this discussion has gotten to the point of getting hung up on minute details regardless of the importance of those details.

:cutie:

Makes one imagine that the words they choose to use is of great importance. It is quite easy for a message to become skewed over one word. I would advise people check their posts to ensure that what they write is exactly what they mean lest they become misunderstood.

[Philosophia]

This argument is far too similar to the bickering over traditions. It's stupid and going no where. In the end, it just makes the Wiccan community look even worse than before it started.

Le sigh.

:uhhuhuh: This type of argument gets thrown around every once in awhile and it's the same thing.

One thing that bothers me about this whole thing is the concept of "normal" pagans and having to differentiate ourselves away from people who dress differently to us. I don't understand why it's such a big deal what others wear and why we have to be seen as "normal". Can't we just be ourselves and if that means being a goth, geek, hippy, etc. than so be it.

[Attila_the_Honey]

:uhhuhuh: This type of argument gets thrown around every once in awhile and it's the same thing.

One thing that bothers me about this whole thing is the concept of "normal" pagans and having to differentiate ourselves away from people who dress differently to us. I don't understand why it's such a big deal what others wear and why we have to be seen as "normal". Can't we just be ourselves and if that means being a goth, geek, hippy, etc. than so be it.

I am in sincere agreement with you :uhhuhuh:.

To be perfectly honest, I've yet to meet a "normal" pagan - I'd have to say I'm the most "normal" looking one I know considering I wear a lot of jeans, t-shirts, and some dressier office items. In these parts most of the pagans I've met are old or new hippies, not the goth kids. While I rather enjoy a more boho look myself, hippies in general can be kind of annoying :P. But I digress... I imagine that what most people consider "normal" is that which is mainstream and in fashion. There is nothing wrong with wearing what is considered "in" if you truly like it. I think everyone should wear what makes them feel good and not worry over what silly stereotype someone is going to place on them.

There is no such thing as normal! :smile:

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Considering I grew up in the 60's and 70's...

And in the California Bay Area...( San Francisco , Berkeley ) ,
and where I live now , and many people , and their style of
dress around here , including many pagans , and that my area
is where many of the hippies came to , when they left the cities ,
I have to say people who make this kind of statement , could be
found to be annoying...at the least , their statement...:uhhuhuh:

Clearer statement...we all dress the way we want...anyone has
a problem with it , including other pagan fashion plates...

Too bad !


hippies in general can be kind of annoying

[David19]

Yeah, I thought you had a better understanding that the simplistic way you worded it. But I've had a tough week and just responded to what I actually read. And I wanted to make it quite clear what my traditional Wiccan beliefs are on the topic.

No problem, and I hope you can relax at the weekend :).



I think there can be quite a bit of diversity, but there should be (and are) some common factors that make Wicca different from anything else. To me one of those things is using magic to change ourselves and the world around us in a favorable way. Those who feel that magic and spells are scary or something like that often don't realize that casting a very basic circle is using magic.

True, and, I do think that if you think magic is too scary too use, or even evil, then, you should reconsider whether Wicca is for you, although, I do think that it's possible for a Wiccan to do the rituals (e.g. casting circles, praying to the God and Goddess, etc), but, not necessarily interested in casting spells.

[Morgaine_cla]

Personally, I can't imagine disliking someone I've never met, or trying to discredit people or traditions about which I have no first-hand experience or knowledge. That said, if I read someone's books and find (from experience, not assumption) that most of what they are asserting is fantasy being presented as "fact", then I have nothing but contempt for their work -- but I still don't dislike them because without meeting them I can't know whether the rubbish they are publishing is what they really believe or just something they're doing to make a name for themselves and some pocket money.

Interesting! Thanks for posting.

[Lunacie]

Personally, I can't imagine disliking someone I've never met, or trying to discredit people or traditions about which I have no first-hand experience or knowledge. That said, if I read someone's books and find (from experience, not assumption) that most of what they are asserting is fantasy being presented as "fact", then I have nothing but contempt for their work -- but I still don't dislike them because without meeting them I can't know whether the rubbish they are publishing is what they really believe or just something they're doing to make a name for themselves and some pocket money.

Interesting! Thanks for posting.


Publishing rubbish says a lot about the person, doesn't it?

I think it says a lot about what kind of person they are, and that's not someone I care to meet and get to know better.

[MankyCat]

Makes one imagine that the words they choose to use is of great importance. It is quite easy for a message to become skewed over one word. I would advise people check their posts to ensure that what they write is exactly what they mean lest they become misunderstood.

Actually, it makes one think that some are probably prone to arguments regardless of how the wording might be. There's always room for misinterpretation over the net depending on the mindset of the reader. :hahugh:

*bowing out of the thread*

[childofcrow]

I actually kind of enjoy Fiona's first book. I still occasionally read it for certain things. I'll ever recommend it and Ravenwolf's first book (or her big book with all the correspondances in it).

Trust me, I understand the hate. I read that someone said Horne's first book was too much like a biography. So what? Phyllis Currott's first book was a biography.

I do still recommend both to people starting out - I think that fluff has it's place. It's easy to read and understand, and starts to get the ideas flowing. However, people need to move on from that. There are a lot of other great authors, such as well as Arin Murphy-Hiscock, Cunningham, and Marian Green, that are less fluffy and more meat.

[sammpanther]

I know that Silver Ravenwolf is trendy. Cant tell you how many teens thats all they talk about (rolls eyes) Get a clue and research more. gah!