A Moral Choice

[Gwion]

I was once invited to attend an Asatru circle at a "woodhenge" that someone had put up on their property. My High Priestess warned me that there would be White Supremacists there. I then decided not to go. She actually upbraided me for being intolerant. She was apprenticing me, but I refused to go. I don't believe that being tolerant means having to tolerate jerks. Then I determined to go wearing a star of David, and then she talked me out of it. Just for the record, the Asatru I have met in person have been inspirational, wonderful people. Would you have gone?

[Leviyah]

It would depend on who had invited me and if I knew anyone else that would be there. If I only knew the person who had invited me then I wouldn't have gone. In terms of the WS's I don't think it would have detered me if I really wanted to go but it would have made me very uncomfortable.

I don't think your HP had any right to berate for choosing not to allow your energy to mingle with people you don't feel comfortable with.

[Pan]

I agree with Leviyah. I would have gone, myself, though asked if I could take a friend.

[st0rm]

hmm... I dunno... I really dunno

[Old Witch]

I would never attend anything that I knew that White supremacy advocates would be attending..........and that HP would cease to exist in my Universe..........

[Jenett]

From my perspective, it'd depend on a piece of information you haven't included here: who's organizing the gathering, and how open is it?

I wouldn't go to a gathering organised by people whose beliefs (including white supremecy, etc.) I felt seriously uncomfortable with without an excellent reason.

On the other hand if people who didn't have those beliefs were organising something, and if it were a reasonably open gathering (i.e. lots of different people with different views within the broad category, including those I have difficulty with) might be there, that's different. At any reasonably open gathering, there are likely to be people whose views I disagree with in different ways.

That doesn't mean I need to stand there and talk to them - but as long as the overall purpose of the gathering is one I agree with (which means some level of trust of the organisers), then I'm ok being there.

In the original situation, I'd probably have said, "Hey, wait. This situation makes me uncomfortable. Can we talk some more about why you want me to go, and what it will be like, and so on?"

If given a sufficiently good reason why *this* gathering was important (rather than finding an alternate gathering at a later time), and ideally some further backup (introductions to people I'd likely enjoy spending time with at the gathering, etc) I'd probably seriously consider it, because I trust my HPS not to strongly suggest stuff to me without a good reason.

Part of my responsibility, though, is to make it clear to her when I have concerns, and exactly what they are, and whether I think there's a way around them. After that, we can actually look at viable solutions, not at miscommunications.

(I should note: I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who has European Jewish ancestry (maternal grandfather and his family), who would be considered Jewish under the later interpretation of the Nuremberg laws, and who has family who died in the Holocaust. I'm definitely not comfortable with white supremicist or neo-Nazi supporters by any means, but I don't think that means they get to determine what events I'll go to or not go to, if the actual event is something different.)

[Flar's Freyja]

I agree that it would depend on many factors, but I would probably get myself into trouble. I have yet to see a literate, intelligent, educated White Supremacist and I would have a hard time not shooting off my mouth.

[Gwion]

If I saw someone sporting a Nazi swastika, I would have started a fight myself. (Aries Rising, Leo Moon) I'm just like that. The WS were invited, but were not the majority there. HP did say that I would have to learn to tolerate people I don't agree with in large Pagan gatherings. I disagree. I don't do magic with people I don't like, or whose energy opposes mine. I did eventually break away from the HP after initiation. She is a good person, a traditional Gardnerian, but that was not the path I wanted to grow on. (Afterthought: The swastika is a beautiful symbol, and deosil swastikas have been used by many cultures on earth down through the ages to symbolize the wheel of life. It's just another example of a beautiful symbol twisted into something evil.)

[Flar's Freyja]

*nods* If we have negative energy that we can't get rid of, we should not be in circle. It's positive when we recognize this.

As with the pentagram, the swastika is another symbol that has been defiled and used as a negative one. The swastika is actually two sowilo runes joined together. Sowilo by itself represents the sun, one part of the dynamic solar wheel and is associated with the god Baldur, who rules the light half of the year. The energy of this rune moves in the directioni of enlightenment. The two runes joined together have powerful, positive energy.

[Old Witch]

No argument on the swastika.....and I think you did the right thing........I couldn't do it because I wouldn't be able to control myself........big temper thing........grrrr.........

[Flar's Freyja]

Here's some more info on the swastika:

Info on Sowilo and the swastika:

The Swastika is an ancient Sanskrit symbol found on rings of devoted monks and priests from India and Tibet today. The symbol represents the life force, a powerful energy that is in each of us and is connected to the God or Goddess. Unfortunately, Hitler abused this beautiful symbol representing the life force. Another rune he abused was the lightening shape Sigil which appeared on the lapels of his elite secret service as a double "S."

http://www.earth-dancing.com/runes.htm

[Azure]

Well, there's tolerance and tolerance. I am willing to like people I don't agree with, but hate groups don't fall into the category of "disagreement" IMO - and all too often the represent violence, abuse, dishonesty, repression and a host of other things I find to be reprehensible. I would have chosen not to attend, and I would have explained to the HP my feelings on the subject.

I lived in Missouri near large groups of white supremacists a couple of years ago when I was in grad school. There were Klan and WS arrests in the area due to violence or planned violence almost every week. I have yet to have a positive experience with WS.

On a humorous note, since I'm a petite blonde girl, any number of them I've encountered try to hit on me - and have run away when I mention that regardless of my coloring, I have both African American and Native American ancestors. Now there are some folks I'm just sorry I missed going out with -
not.

[Ryhla]

Knowing my personality, (Darned Irish anyway) I would have declined to attend the circle. I would have let the HP know why. I myself would have been uncomfortable in attending something like that knowing that there was WS there. I have 2 cousins who are melado and a good freind from the Dominican Republic. Not only would I have to deal with being uncomfortable in the situation, there could have been negative energies coming from me because of my opinions. That I feel would be unfair on everyone involved.

[materra]

I wouldn't have gone. IMO just being present supports things I don't want in my life ( or the world for that matter) like WS and other bigots. Simply being there supports their beliefs.

I don't have to like or support all Pagan's because they are Pagan. To me this is what this sounded like...go because it supports Pagans. I wouldn't say your HP is bad but she may not have thought it all through carefully enough.

[Jenett]

I'd like to raise one more issue here, since I don't see that it's really come up.

What about if there were people whose beliefs you seriously disagreed with, but you *didn't* know about it in advance? How would you (anyone out there) answer that?

In my case, I make my decision on whether I attend a public/open ritual based on the purpose of the ritual, and the organiser/organising group. If I feel I can trust their purpose, I'll consider going.

If it's an open ritual, I have no idea who might or might not be there - or what their beliefs might be. I have no way of knowing that, if they're
strangers.

There seem to be three basic logical positions here.

1) Not going to any open ritual, and only entering into circle with people you know and trust. (Or, perhaps, those vouched for by those you trust)

2) Going to open rituals if you agree with the purpose of the ritual and have reasonable trust in the people running it to keep it on track (though being willing to leave and able to leave on your own if you need to may definitely be a good idea here)

3) Going to open rituals regardless of who else is there, or what the purpose it is (and excusing yourself if you decide you don't want to be there, if necessary)

It therefore seems a little odd to me to draw the line at 'I won't go because I *know* that there are people I have philosophical differences with'. - what about if you go, and there are people you have serious problems with, but you don't know about it before ritual?

I'd much rather draw the line somewhere else (in my case, #2, partly because I think I'd rather support good work in the community when I feel comfortable with it than stay away from an otherwise good ritual just because I don't know who else will be there. I can respect people who do 1 or 3 quite happily. It's the inbetween stuff that boggles me.)

[Danustouch]

IMO...there is a simple answer to that question, Jennett. If you *Know* ahead of time, and you are on the defensive, or if you are preoccupied with that dude with the shaved head and the swastika tatooed on his skull across the circle from you. If you can't help but feel very angry, or upset about that WS across the circle from you, then your energy is going to be much less focused on the ritual itsself. Therefore, how much actual *help* are you going to be to the ritual purpose, anyway? As a matter of fact, if you are in circle, have raised your energy, and half of your energy is being absorbed by the WS across the circle from you, how do you know how that energy will manifest?

If you DONT know ahead of time, that there are WS people there, and you get there, and see them, or start to realize who's who, you CAN just leave ahead of time. If you don't know..if the person is a closet WS for instance, then your energy will STILL be focused on the ritual you are performing. If you found out AFTER the ritual that there were several WS practioners there, you may regret having used your energy in that circle, or you may not...because as you said, you still aided the purpose of that circle. That is, so long as the purpose of that circle was something that you agreed with.

Anyway..Gwion, to answer your question, I wouldn't have gone either. If I HAD for some reason been persuaded to go, I would have made sure I had a few of my multiethnic friends come with me, to show that they did not intimidate me, or my friends in the slightest. But I can't imagine ever being persuaded to attend an event where I knew that WS people would be present. Which leads me to another question. Out of the other participants of the circle, how many of them came from diverse ethnic origins? Because the ONLY circumstance I could think might sway whether or not I attended, is if I felt that by BEING there, I could help show solidarity, friendship, and support for people who were feeling very uncomfortable (i.e, those of african american/native american, Jewish or other descent)

[Mythrel]

Originally posted by Gwion
I don't do magic with people I don't like, or whose energy opposes mine.

I completely agree with you on this...in my opinion you did the right thing...

[Saphra]

I just wouldn't have gone, plain and simple. I have met quite a few WS and KKK's around where I live, and I get a bad feeling from every one of them. I wouldn't have been able to concentrate and probably would have started a fight or two while I was there.

[Armitage]

Nope. Wouldn't have gone. Wouldn't go to anything of that manner where I wasn't comfortable around the people. Hell, I won't go to simple parties with people I don't like, why would I do it with that?

[WandererInGray]

*nods* What Mythrel said.

I fail to see how it's "intolerant" to not want to associate with people who have beliefs which are basically in opposition to your own. *shrugs* That's my take on the whole thing.

[Gwion]

as soon as I get directions to Effigy from travel.com.

To this day I have never met a WS, and all of the Asatru I have met have been outstanding Pagans. Many of their Gods and Goddesses are very dear to my heart.

[shnen]

I don't know.. I wouldn't agree with what they do, and I wouldn't want to support them... depending on how many there would be, I don't think I would be comfortable... especailly after I bite my own tongue off...