Concealing (hiding, lying, etc) your beliefs/path

[Agaliha]

Inspired by the discussion started in The Silver Ravenwolf Path (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=219171), when it was brought up SRW instructed teens to lie to their parents about their beliefs/practices/path. There was some good replies and I thought it'd be interesting to discuss it further and not necessary about teens, but in the context of adults as well.


These don't have to be answered, I'm just trying to think of some starting points...

Is there a good reason to lie or conceal your beliefs, practices, faith?
Have you ever had to conceal yours? From whom? (only if you want to share, of course)
Or do you feel you should always be honest, no matter what the consequences are (even violence, death, loss of a home, family, etc)?

[Aoife]

When I first started my exploration of the pagan paths, and the entire time I live with my mother, I had to conceal my beliefs. I never lied about it it in any form, I just simply didn't ever bring up the subject, and it never came up.

There were several reasons for this, one I needed a place to live and food to eat, and my mother is the type who would kick me out over something like this ('it's the work of the devil' mindset) and I had no place else to go. Also, my mother was somewhat abusive, and I knew if I revealed my true feeling about religion, that would spur an argument, and between us, arguments turned into fights, and that wouldn't be pretty.

So in reality, it was for my well being. I couldn't see the good of saying "Hey mom, I'm pagan", consider the consequences.

Now I'm completely open about it. I don't go around flaunting it, but its always there, and if anyone asks or the subject is open for discussion, I have no problem telling them. At the same rate, I haven't told my mother (or any of my family still), but in this case its not me avoiding the subject, its mostly that we never have discussion in which I feel the need to tell them.

[Infinite Grey]

My atheism came out naturally really - or mores to the point, my refuting my parent's creationist beliefs lead to my causal mentioning that I do not believe in god.

[Rudas Starblaze]

My atheism came out naturally really - or mores to the point, my refuting my parent's creationist beliefs lead to my causal mentioning that I do not believe in god.

what are you talking about!!? im sitting right here silly! :lol:

[Infinite Grey]

what are you talking about!!? im sitting right here silly! :lol:

You are a figment of your own imagination, that just happens to be able to interact with others... or something like that.

[Rudas Starblaze]

You are a figment of your own imagination, that just happens to be able to interact with others... or something like that.

shush you!! my follows will freak out!! rotf! :rollingla

[Calli]

Good topic, if a painful one for me. I guess I hid my beliefs while I was first discovering them. It's more like it was too new to share yet. When I did start sharing them with my various extended family members, it changed our relationships. My only blood sister has kept a distance from me, although we are talking again - sort of. My cousin apparently was scared by the whole thing, and her daughter found them interesting, and is considering paganism herself, last I heard. I was able to be open with my mother, and she's very accepting, although upset that I can't find a spell to give her her sight back. It's not a matter of "can't find a spell" but you all get that, I'm sure.

[Lunacie]

It took a couple of years before I was able to open with my mother about leaving the church and becoming a Wiccan. And I was 40 years old at the time. She was quite upset at first and didn't want to talk about it, but eventually she came to terms with it - on her own terms. She told me that I had been baptized and she believed my soul was safe.

I really felt like she took a moment to visit me after her death from cancer 8 years later - and it felt like she was letting me know that she could see now that I was just as right as she was, that there is room for more than one way of knowing the divine.

The rest of the family thinks I'm weird, and probably pray for me. But they don't give me any grief about my beliefs.

I have many friends that I can be honest and open with, and we sometimes talk about our beliefs. But there are definately situations, time and places, where I keep my mouth shut. I don't lie, but I don't think I have to tell everyone my personal business. Fortunately my boss sees this the same way my family does, I may be weird but I'm basically a good person. I have friends who cannot tell their bosses if they want a day off for a non-mainstream holiday. One is a schoolteacher who fears having others find out because she could loose her job. And it would just make life in a small Kansas town very difficult for her, and for her children as well.

And that is one reason I keep my beliefs to myself for the most part, my grandchildren and my daughter and I all live together in a small Kansas town - and the girls could be shunned at school if it were known that their grandmother is *gasp* a Witch.

[Philosophia]

Is there a good reason to lie or conceal your beliefs, practices, faith?

There are many good reasons to conceal; not so many to lie because they have an uncanny habit of coming back.


Have you ever had to conceal yours? From whom? (only if you want to share, of course)

Nope, never had to conceal mine.


Or do you feel you should always be honest, no matter what the consequences are (even violence, death, loss of a home, family, etc)?

Depends on who you're being honest with. I think you should always try to be honest with yourself. However, when it concerns violence or possible death, lying is fine. In a person's home, than you need to abide by the rules. You can try to conceal it if need be but I wouldn't lie about it. In my experience, it'll come back and bite you in the ass.

[Stormbeard]

Generally, I don't tell people I'm a Satanist unless I know them reasonably well. It takes far too long to explain and I'm far too lazy to explain it in full to them only for them to pull this face,

http://topbanana.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/confused.jpg

only listen to half of what I said and then carry on with the same preconceived thought pattern that they had before. "So you worship Satan?"

[aranarose]

First off, I think there's a subtle difference between lying about your faith, and concealing it.

I think that many teens and adults have to conceal their faith for many, many reasons. Usually, that has to do with parents and/or family members who would react in a negative manner. And so it's understandable to conceal things then. That doesn't mean they have to lie about it, they just have to be careful. I would also encourage people in those situations to be very, very well informed not just about their own faith, but about other faiths as well, so that if/when it is discovered, they can answer any and all questions that people might have in a logical and consistent manner.

Now, I understand the need to conceal one's faith, and have done so in the past myself, but no longer agree with doing so. I think it's bad for ourselves and it's bad for public opinion of pagans. I'll go more into that in a minute.

The lying thing... I think lying about anything is bad. Yes, there are lies that become absolutely necessary. But rarely will we ever encounter those. Most of the time, we could get around that by concealment. Parents going to kick you out because you're pagan? Just don't tell them. You don't have to lie about it, but you don't have to be blatant about it either. And telling one lie often requires more lies. And more lies. And even more lies. And it can get really hard to keep track of those lies.

Now, another reason I think lying about our faith is bad is the same reason I think concealing our faith is bad. It devalues it both in public perception, and in our own minds. If it's something that has to be hidden or lied about, it must be bad, right? Why else would we lie/hide it? Eventually, it will undermine our own belief, and it does us absolutely no good for public perception at all, which is important if we want others to accept our faith.

[Nuadu]

Is there a good reason to lie or conceal your beliefs, practices, faith?

IMO needless arguing is something to be avoided, life is too short to argue with every person who's got a chip on their shoulder. Its particularly important to get along with family even if it would vindicate all the effort you put into learning to tell them about it, no matter how much of a pain they are they will be in your life forever. So.... yes.


Have you ever had to conceal yours? From whom? (only if you want to share, of course)

I dont accost priests or people who I know would be upset but I suppose Im in an unusual position in that I do it all the time with other pagans. What do you say when the 'universal' polarity of God and Goddess is applied to your heritage when the concept is alien to your culture? Its adopted by everyone but its origins arent even in the European continent... learning the history of neopaganism is important but not everyone likes history and there is more to life then going around peeing in peoples tea. One example of many and Im no recon, even that leaves me utterly alienated as an irish person.


Or do you feel you should always be honest, no matter what the consequences are (even violence, death, loss of a home, family, etc)?

Self knowlege as a form of being honest with yourself is important in all parts of life but particularly in energy work or so Ive been told. That said I would not view deliberately telling people things that will upset them as honesty, its just self centred egotism. I wouldnt apply that thinking to someone who is still living at home, the family home is the entire world at that point in life but for adults who've experianced the world for themselves and know they arent trapped and that actions have concequences... just my opinion.

[Torey]

Inspired by the discussion started in The Silver Ravenwolf Path (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=219171), when it was brought up SRW instructed teens to lie to their parents about their beliefs/practices/path. There was some good replies and I thought it'd be interesting to discuss it further and not necessary about teens, but in the context of adults as well.


These don't have to be answered, I'm just trying to think of some starting points...

Is there a good reason to lie or conceal your beliefs, practices, faith?
Have you ever had to conceal yours? From whom? (only if you want to share, of course)
Or do you feel you should always be honest, no matter what the consequences are (even violence, death, loss of a home, family, etc)?

To me, 'being honest' about my religion is not something that is worth losing life, limb, sanity or relationships over. As long as I am personally content with my path and beliefs, I don't see the need to force everyone to accept them or to be blatantly expressive in my practice. It's not a fair world - sure, Christians have much more freedom than Satanists do to be themselves and to be proud of their paths - but at the same time, I don't need the validation of others to cement my spiritual identity.

It would be nice to tell others freely about my beliefs and share with them, but unfortunately, that's just not going to happen in my family and in my present community - so for me, keeping quiet is just plain smart.

[Toki Wartooth]

I think concealing one's faith can sometimes be very important, but I don't know that it always has to be done all the time and with everyone. I believe a lot of people can be open on the Internet, if nowhere else. (I do understand and know some must keep very quiet because they're in small towns or some kind of community where word can travel and blah blah.) I myself try to keep a sorta ... balance? Until the day where I can be totally open and not have to worry about things...

So far, I'm open with all those I consider friends, or at least near-friends. I'm open with my mom. I'm obviously open to those local pagans I work with, as well as at the UU church I attend. I'm open about it on the Internet. I've started becoming, slowly, open with a couple of people who are acquaintances or people I "work" with as part of an extracurricular and such. I'm a little hesitant, but I figure I may as well just say it; I think some people pick up on it anyway, judging by some of the jewelry I wear.

I don't know yet if it'll be a threat to my upcoming job. I don't think so, since I already know my "boss" from the aforementioned extracurricular. He knows my character, and he doesn't think of me as a "bad" person. I'm probably safe at least with him. As for the future students I'll be working with?... I think I'd rather keep my mouth shut there. And the professor I'll be working with? I'd have to test the waters, so to speak.

I don't and can't tell my mom's co-workers, except for one, who's actually in "the Craft" himself. He picked up on it, and we just started talking about it. But, my mom's work place is super political...and if they found out my mom's daughter was a witch/pagan/"devil worshiper," some bad things could happen.

I was open to my Dad about it, before he died. He knew about it when I started it, and he knew it was still going on since I read tarot cards and such. I think, for a while, my mom was a bit in denial or just ignored it, but I've since been much more open about it, even explaining some things she isn't familiar with.

I believe I'm luckier than some others. I have no risk of being kicked out of my house, my job's probably secure if I play my cards right, my friends are supportive or at least tolerant, &c.

I can see what aranarose was saying...about how hiding things may do a disservice, but I think with the risk of losing a home or job, it's just not worth it. If people can be open with certain people, online or otherwise, I think that's a good start, if nothing else.

As for lying...I don't know. I'm sitting on the fence with this one. A few of my friends are very Christian, and although I don't want to lie about anything ... there isn't so much I can say to them that wouldn't be at least a partial lie. They'll mention things like church, their "Heavenly Father," blah blah blah. I just try to keep shut. One of them invited me to their Baptist church. Noooo, thanks. Gah.

[Burning Angel]

I'm pretty open with my internet friends...most other places I just don't bring it up, because either they wouldn't understand, or I'm rather worried about what they'd feel. It's kind of a case by case thing, and not rationally driven...some of my friends from the church I used to go to know, some don't, my Mom knows (and is cool with it despite her evangelical persuasions), so does my Dad (less cool)....but my friend here in town I hang out with the most has only recently been told, and I think he kinda mentally bleeps over it, whether he'd rather talk about other stuff or whatever. Don't know.

But basically, I just have a rather arbitrary way of telling - basically if I trust you to accept it and not screw with me, I'll tell you...except on Facebook where I'm always doing pagan-related statuses. The internet does make you feel bolder :P

~Jon :boing:

[Cloaked Raven]

For me, yes... There is a reason why I conceal my beliefs. I live in a very fundamental Christian area and people are not as open to Paganism here as they would be in say Halifax. We do have Pagans here but they are very few in number and don't share their beliefs with people they don't really know.

Being a Christian Witch is even more unacceptable apparently... I have gotten flack from both Christians I know for adding Pagan elements to my path and some of my Pagan friends because some of them don't believe that someone can combine the two paths into one.

Most of my husband's family knows my true path... His siblings and his mother are very accepting of it and his grandmother doesn't see any harm in it as long as I don't hurt myself or someone else.

However... The only ones on my side of the family who have an idea that I'm a Christian Witch is my brother and his wife. Both are Atheists and don't have any problems with me following the right path for me. Probably because I'm so accepting of their chosen path and don't try to "bring them back into the fold" like my mother and sister do.

If my mother and sister knew of my true path, I would be excommunicated from the family... They would consider me dead and never speak to me again. They would claim I am an unfit mother because of my beliefs and sue for custody of my son based on that alone, just so they could raise him in their fanatical belief system. No joke.

My mother and sister believe I'm just a very open minded Christian who doesn't go to church and likes incense and candles. Let them think I just happen to be interested in learning about other belief systems and happen to know some things about other paths.

I generally don't talk about my path outside of MW unless it's in a private message... My sister is on both my MySpace and my Facebook friends list and will see anything that is posted publicly. I don't say anything about my path in my one music forum because it is loaded with born again Christians and there was some drama in there last year regarding something about non Christian belief systems that had people screaming "Jesus is the ONLY way!!" (:ugh:) so only a very few select members know about my true path over there. The ones that do know are very supportive and one or two of them have wanted to learn more about my path.

I am honest with those in my area that I trust, and my fellow MWers of course. ;)

I just don't want to upset any apple carts unnecessarily, that's all.

[BryonMorrigan]

I'm pretty open about it, but, since we Classical Polytheists don't have any kind of connection to Witchcraft, we have a better time of it than others.

Plus, I live in a town known for being full of the spirit of Individualism, so I've never had a problem here. My daughters are all being brought up as Classical Polytheists, and I ensure that their teachers have been given "The Talk," wherein I explain our religion and vow to come down like a ton of bricks on her or anyone else at the school who screws with my kids and our beliefs.

Because we don't wear Pentacles or have any specific association with Witchcraft, I think we Classical types tend to have it easier than most Pagans.

The only real place where I find a lot of conflict, is in the academic world: I've had some pretty heated discussions in grad. school with some Christians who like to pretend that their religion is more "advanced" or "civilized" than mine, and I had a professor who was a Dominionist, and would not allow any negative discussion of Christianity in his class, even when we were discussing things like the Massacre of Verden or Hypatia of Alexandria. (In his opinion, these accounts were "made up" by Atheists during the Enlightenment...I kid you not....)

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

ahahahahaha! I thought it said Congealing (hiding, lying, etc) your beliefs/ path.

I was super confused for a second *self face palm*

[la tortuga]

I am open about my faith, not to the point of running around screaming it, but if it comes up in conversation I have no problem with the idea of talking about it... but I have trouble sometimes finding the words to explain it exactly without it being too confusing to people. It's not a easy to say "I'm Asatru" to someone who has no idea what that means, and it sometimes ends up being a very long conversation explaining what my beliefs are.

[Whitewolf]

I think concealing your beliefs is different than just lying about them. I'm very open with my parents and my boyfriend about Paganism. They have no problem with my beliefs but I refused to tell anyone at work what I believe. The topic just never came up and I wasn't comfortable with it.

[David19]

Like I said in the SRW Path thread, I don't think there's a problem with hiding or not telling your beliefs, that's why I don't see the problem with what SRW tells teens to do, I mean, they're teens, they will lie anyway, there are other problems with her work, but, that, IMO, isn't anything to get worked up over.

For myself, no one, aside from people on MW and a few other people online, know I'm Pagan, that's not 'cause they'd freak out, most probably wouldn't care, or they may think it's just associated with wierd New Age people (which is a stereotype fueled by the people who go to Glastonbury the town, and other New Age centers), it's just I don't see the need to share my beliefs with everyone, it's something private for myself (and it'd help if I could figure out a definite path too!).

BTW, cool topic :).

[ninurta2008]

I still live with my parents, both are as ignorant as you can get and I don't know how much I want to say on this. But I have to conceal my being pagan, and other things from them. My friends know more about me than my parents. Many lie about their faith to their parents for good reasons. I say I am an atheist, even though I am no wheres close.

I get heat for that as it is, and am preached to on how my beliefs are wrong and how i am going to hell. Imagine if I even alluded to what I really believe in?

My mother believes not just other religions, but other forms of christianity outside her brand of the religion, are all wrong. That only her beliefs matter. She thinks i am a problem enough as it is. Let alone tell her half of what I conceal. My friends know me more well than my own mother who lives with me knows me.

[Bix]

Like other people stated, I don't think I lie about my religion, per say...I just really don't bring it up. I tell people I go to church when I can and do read the Bible. I just kinda leave out the fact that I go to pagan websites and read about it.

[Kendrah]

Well. I didn't used to lie about my religion. I was younger then. Now I realize that not everyone wants the truth for one. In Utah, where most everyone you meet in LDS, it's especially hard to brotch the subject.

Also, I think in some ways, if you have to fight for your believes, you hold onto them harder. Let me explain. I think believes are fragile things, to be taken care of and watered and allowed to grow and change as you live your life. Believes are organic to me. If you are fighting for your ideal and holding onto your believes like a MF, you might just sufficate them. You might hold onto them and not realize you need to change and grow.

There are so many truths out there. You don't need to say "Yeah, I dance nekked under the full moon" when someone asks your religion. You can just say you're not christian or the like.

That's just me.

[Agaliha]

I'm curious....many mentioned if asked their religion they wouldn't lie, but wouldn't offer all the details up or would be vague and not flaunt things. What about situations when you could be asked a very specific question?-- Are you Pagan? Are you an Atheist? And to answer these truthfully could lead serious consequences like being disowned by friends/family or something even worse? Would lying be a viable answer? If you are in a tight situation and you're asked if you're a Wiccan and you are, yet the very act of coming out with it can be detrimental, what would you do? Denying it would be a form of lying, so...?

[Kendrah]

I would lie. They are not part of my religion and don't need to know. If they are going to disown me, how are those hurtful emotions going to help me?

[Shaedema]

Is there a good reason to lie or conceal your beliefs, practices, faith?
Have you ever had to conceal yours? From whom? (only if you want to share, of course)
Or do you feel you should always be honest, no matter what the consequences are (even violence, death, loss of a home, family, etc)?

Yes there are reasons to conceal/omit what you believe from anyone. Lying should be a last resort (as in being a minor and running the risk of being homeless if parents found out).

I've had to conceal mine from parents when I was younger. And even that didn't keep me out of trouble. :weirdsmil I ended up leaving the family after all was said and done on both sides.

These days I'm trying to be honest, but it gets difficult when you don't have a label. :bigredgri Not that I want one, but it would be a hell of a lot easier if I could just used one word to describe me instead of going through the process that I've fallen into. Which usually starts with me being asked if I'm pagan or a witch. And I have to ask them what they think those terms are before saying 'something like that'. Then the conversation either dies or they ask more questions and I answer to the best of my ability.



What about situations when you could be asked a very specific question?-- Are you Pagan? Are you an Atheist? And to answer these truthfully could lead serious consequences like being disowned by friends/family or something even worse? Would lying be a viable answer? If you are in a tight situation and you're asked if you're a Wiccan and you are, yet the very act of coming out with it can be detrimental, what would you do? Denying it would be a form of lying, so...?

When asked I answer as honestly as I can. Even if it means I lose friends/family or even a job. I've walked away from more important people/situations than what faces me these days. And there is no reason to run from who I am.

[amidalen]

Is there a good reason to lie or conceal your beliefs, practices, faith?
I don't lie about it, but I don't really mention it. My mother would blow up if she knew, and I really want to avoid that fight for a while. Even though I haven't been to church since I was 12 (I was an atheist for 10 years), she still thinks I am a christian. I do have my altar and a shrine to Bast (and am in the process of making one for Hermes) but they just think I am obsessed mythology, candles, and cats.

Have you ever had to conceal yours? From whom? (only if you want to share, of course)
My parents mainly. I don't care what other relatives think. They already know me as the weird one so who cares.

Or do you feel you should always be honest, no matter what the consequences are (even violence, death, loss of a home, family, etc)?
As I said I don't really tell a lie about it, just try not to bring it up. Maybe, as I grow more in my faith, I will tell them. Right now though, I just keep quiet even though sometimes I do want to tell them. I kept quiet on the atheism for 10 years so I can wait until either they are more accepting or just let them believe what they want.

[Lunacie]

I'm curious....many mentioned if asked their religion they wouldn't lie, but wouldn't offer all the details up or would be vague and not flaunt things. What about situations when you could be asked a very specific question?-- Are you Pagan? Are you an Atheist? And to answer these truthfully could lead serious consequences like being disowned by friends/family or something even worse? Would lying be a viable answer? If you are in a tight situation and you're asked if you're a Wiccan and you are, yet the very act of coming out with it can be detrimental, what would you do? Denying it would be a form of lying, so...?

At one time I might have done so. At this point I hope I would have presence of mind to turn the tables and ask them why they want to know. Is it something they've heard about Paganism (and I can try to correct the misinformation without giving too much away) - or is it something that I've done or said that makes them suspicious of me?

[Cloaked Raven]

If someone asks me if I am still Christian, I say "Yes, I am".

I'm not lying when I say that. I am a Christian.

I just don't say specifically what "denomination" of Christian I am, that's all. :D

[Shanti]

When I am asked I dont lie. But other than that, my beliefs are not part of regular discussion. Why would it be?

"Hi, hows the weather? Tell me about your beliefs."
Not usually the norm.

But if some nosey person did that, they will get the honest answer.

Family, friends know. If they dont like it, thats their problem, not mine. I accept them no matter what they believe.
I also dont go around asking people what they believe because its none of my business just like what color underwear they are wearing.


The only time I can see lying is when its to save your job. Some employers are closed minded idiots and in Wi can fire you without reason. So if allowing this knowledge at work can put your job at risk, lie. Its not worth going hungry and loosing your home over because you have no income!
Common sence. If telling the truth will be bad for your life, lie. Suffering is just stupid, IMO.

[LESSTHAN3]

My parents know that I don't believe in God, they just don't know that I actually believe in three. I've always been into the strange stuff - so my having a good understanding of supernatural things doesn't surprise them and when I buy books or something about crystals or dreams or anything like that, they don't even question it.

It's not a matter of they'll think I'm a devil worshiper or they'll kick me out that's keeping me from telling them, it's just that I've never seen a reason too. Religion isn't a big thing in my immediate family.

My friends know. They think it's pretty cool and they like getting rune readings from me or I'll write their names in runes or something - it's really just a party trick to them. My boyfriend's family though can never know, if we end up being together for a long time. His dad is a Methodist priest and my his mother (who is very religious) will probably disown Sam (boyfriend) for even talking to a pagan.

[Bix]

I'm curious....many mentioned if asked their religion they wouldn't lie, but wouldn't offer all the details up or would be vague and not flaunt things. What about situations when you could be asked a very specific question?-- Are you Pagan? Are you an Atheist? And to answer these truthfully could lead serious consequences like being disowned by friends/family or something even worse? Would lying be a viable answer? If you are in a tight situation and you're asked if you're a Wiccan and you are, yet the very act of coming out with it can be detrimental, what would you do? Denying it would be a form of lying, so...?

I've honestly never been in that situation, thankfully. Depending on the person, I might go into a bit of detail about how I'm a seeker and still confused about religion. I probably would lie about being interested in pagan practices. I really feel religion is a personal thing and I really hate confrontations.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

If someone asked me what I believe they deserve the headache that comes with the answer. I wouldn't lie about it, or conceal it. I think that a lot of the feelings (not all of course) regarding being abandoned by their family, or disowned because of their belief are unfounded. Or if they are founded, the person is probably better off, but doesn't want to face that.

I'm obviously not covering all contingencies like predatory cults etc, but lets be real here folks. I don't think that the average church going parents are going to disown, beat, abandon, hate, or hurt their child for wanting to explore another path.

I know someones going to say "it happens more often than you think" and considering how little I think it happens you are probably right. In my opinion it's the fear of acceptance that makes people afraid of admitting what they are in to more so than the consequences of others finding out about their belief.

[watersprite]

what are you talking about!!? im sitting right here silly! :lol:
I don't believe in you either. Especially not as a god. I DO believe in your right to be a legend in your own mind.

[Corvid]

There are places in the world where ones life stile and beliefs can cost you more than your job. Right here in the "free thinking" U.S. people are accosted, physically assaulted, even killed for their religion, sexual preference, even race. not every where, in fact not in most places, but it dose happen. I condemn no one for hiding what they do from the out side world. Not only is it no ones business, it could be a matter of life and death.
That being said, I do live in that type of environment, and I have never hidden who or what I am. I am not know for my religious beliefs in this small Baptist town, but for the works i have done. I am know as a Friend and companion who people can turn to in times of need, not as an evil pagan. This was not easy, I have had physical confutations, and i do not advise it for any one, but it was worth it. If you do stand for your principles, and they are good, people may learn to accept you despite your faith.
Just my two cents though...

[RoseKitten]

Inspired by the discussion started in The Silver Ravenwolf Path (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=219171), when it was brought up SRW instructed teens to lie to their parents about their beliefs/practices/path. There was some good replies and I thought it'd be interesting to discuss it further and not necessary about teens, but in the context of adults as well.


These don't have to be answered, I'm just trying to think of some starting points...

Is there a good reason to lie or conceal your beliefs, practices, faith?
Have you ever had to conceal yours? From whom? (only if you want to share, of course)
Or do you feel you should always be honest, no matter what the consequences are (even violence, death, loss of a home, family, etc)?

Luckily, my parents, my grandparents, and my father's side of the family don't care what I do. My parents rule was that I could study whatever I wanted, do whatever I wanted, so long as I wasn't hurting myself or others. However, my aunt is crazy. I do have a relationship with the Christian god, but it basically is that I won't enter his house, he won't bother me, and when I find his lost sheep (I don't mean that in disrespect) I send them back to him. My aunt has lectured me that I'm evil, that I'm too smart to not believe the truth of the bible, so on and so forth. Because of this, I just simply don't talk to her about it, and I don't have the heart to tell her that I'm a witch, because I don't think she could accept it. If it came down to me truly denying my faith to keep her, I'd keep my faith. She can pray for me all she wants, and I don't think she'd ever try to actually stop her, but my spiritual development is more important to me then her narrow beliefs.

I'm always honest about me spirituality, but I'm vague depending on who I'm talking to. If they're scared of paganism, I just tell them that I mostly just do meditation and such, I just have different deities. However, if it's someone that is open minded, I'll go into as much detail as they want me to.

[MoonSpiral]

Aside from online folks, only a few people in my life know. My husband knows and he's supportive, although he doesn't quite understand or know what to think. We don't have any kids to tell or keep it from. My parents and some other family members know I like things like crystals, I practice Reiki and yoga, stuff like that... they probably think I'm new age-ish and that's about it. I've always been the "different" one of the family, so they just think this is me being weird and different from them.

But as for going beyond that and discussing my path and witchcraft... no, I haven't done that. My parents are very religious Christians. I don't think they would disown me or stop talking to me or anything like that, but I don't think they would understand at all, and I do think they would "worry for my eternal soul." I know they would be upset. My parents are in their 80s, and I don't think I'm going to change their minds or opinions about anything at this point.

And because I don't want my parents to know, I don't mention it to other family members. Really, the topic doesn't come up. They assume I am what I have always been, and I let them go on assuming.

Other than my husband, my best friend knows, and a couple of others know. One reason is because this is still new for me, and I'm still discovering my path. This is a time of transition for me, where I'm questioning old beliefs, figuring out what I truly believe, and finally being honest with myself about beliefs and practices that have called to me most of my life. I still feel like I'm getting used to it all myself, and want to keep it close to me.

Then there are the considerations like the fact that I live in the Bible belt. There aren't that many like-minded people where I live (although they are out there, probably more than most people realize). I associate with, and am friends/acquaintances with, some very devoutly Christian people (and some of them fundamentalists) who would be appalled if I told them I'm learning and practicing witchcraft. I don't even let these people know I own tarot cards or that I'm a Reiki practitioner -- I certainly don't feel comfortable telling them to please think of me now as a witch who has books on witchcraft scattered about my house and an altar to Brighid in my kitchen. I don't want to hide it forever, but right now I don't feel ready to make my beliefs and my path known except to certain people. So with the others, I let them believe what they believe, that nothing is changing with me. And the subject hasn't come up, no one has asked me outright about any of this, and so I haven't lied.

But. If asked outright, there are some people I would lie to about it right now, because of certain circumstances I'm in at the moment.

[bellamandu]

when i was still living with my mom i had to conceal it from my family for the longest time for fear of them trying to exorcise me or some other crazy thing. but it eventually got out...

nowadays im pretty open about it for the most part but there have been occasions with some of the more conservative hardcore christian types around here when i try to just avoid the topic as much as possible. after a while constantly being asked "do you curse people?" "do you cast spells on people?" "do you worship the devil or something?" gets kinda old...

[ffetcher]

I was extremely fortunate in that when I parted ways with my Christian upbringing, I didn't have to conceal anything from my family (nor, in truth, would it really have been possible). I've never had to conceal my pagan and Wiccan beliefs from close friends either, but to an extent that's self-fulfilling; others I know have tried concealing or lying about something that important and found that a close friendship doesn't last very long.

But this nickname was originally coined to conceal my identity when I wanted to publish, not to protect me (it's my choice) but to protect friends and family who might have been hurt by the association. In a small village in rural England, everyone knows everyone else's business and not everyone is going to understand; "that article on witchcraft - that's your son, isn't it?". And likewise, in New England, even today, I doubt that "consorting with a known witch" is actually going to enhance one's chances in a child custody case. Okay, that last is probably extreme nowadays, but I wouldn't want to take the chance of having a friend hurt.

blessings
fetcher

[*oonagh*]

i suppose being a pantheist isn't considered very extreme. i've never hid who or what i am.

[jahya]

I've run into this lately with my children. I've told them this is something we only talk about within the family ... not because we're embarrassed, but because others would not be as accepting.

My husband's parents, I'm sure, would be fine with this, but the other grandparents would not at all. I mentioned my beliefs to my parents once and they had a fit at me. Since then, I don't mention religion at all, and if they bring it up I do my best to get through that part of the conversation with no arguments (basically I bite my tongue).

I'm starting to take the kids with me to classes and such, and they seem really interested. I know they'd love to share this with their friends, but living where we do I'm afraid it would lose them friends. I'd rather they just keep their beliefs to themselves for now until they are a bit older and could deal with rejection if it comes.

I feel sad for them having to suggest they do this, but I don't see that we have a choice. I hide my beliefs from most people for the same reason ...
I don't want the kids to have a harder time with their peers.

[Kaliayev]

Is there a good reason to lie or conceal your beliefs, practices, faith?

Yes. Everything from "Because its no-one elses business" upwards is a good one, in my opinion.

I doubt anyone here would care, but I don't feel like giving them the guided tour, so not saying anything or feigning disinterest in the topic works out just as well.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

I honestly believe that it is the fear that people have of exposing themselves that generates more prejudice, ignorance, and fear than the actual reality of exposing themselves.

Telling children not to tell others what goes on at home "because we won't be accepted" just propagates fear of others. It teaches them to be fearful of who they are, and it teaches them not to accept others as well.

I think that by not encouraging children to be open about their beliefs, you are going a long way towards undoing a lot of the acceptance of alternative religions. And for what? Fear that you will be persecuted? Supposed fear that your children will be persecuted?

I really don't get it, and I think you are doing yourself and your children a disservice, especially encouraging them to be less than truthful. By buying in to the propaganda about "Evil Fundies" and other such type things, you are propagating a fearful mindset and restricting your growth and that of those around you.

**I've been reading this thread for the past couple of days and I really think those who would tell their children to lie about who they are should be ashamed of themselves, Mods strike me down if you will but I am absolutely appalled.**

[green aventurine]

i suppose being a pantheist isn't considered very extreme. i've never hid who or what i am.

yeah, there's nothing extreme about pantheism, it's just sexed up atheism :p



But this nickname was originally coined to conceal my identity when I wanted to publish, not to protect me (it's my choice) but to protect friends and family who might have been hurt by the association. In a small village in rural England, everyone knows everyone else's business and not everyone is going to understand; "that article on witchcraft - that's your son, isn't it?". And likewise, in New England, even today, I doubt that "consorting with a known witch" is actually going to enhance one's chances in a child custody case. Okay, that last is probably extreme nowadays, but I wouldn't want to take the chance of having a friend hurt.

blessings
fetcher

:uhhuhuh: I moved down from London a while ago to the south coast and while people are much friendlier down here, the flipside of course can be that in small places, everybody knows your business. I can imagine it's really like that in the real small villages.

As for concealing my path and beliefs etc - it doesn't usually come up in conversation in real life. If it does and I like the person I might tell them a bit about it otherwise I'd have to agree with Merle Pariso that 'its no one else's business' is a good reason for not talking about it etc lol

[*oonagh*]

yeah, there's nothing extreme about pantheism, it's just sexed up atheism :p



ha! touche :smile:

[green aventurine]

ha! touche :smile:

:hehehehe:

[HiccupingBat]

I honestly believe that it is the fear that people have of exposing themselves that generates more prejudice, ignorance, and fear than the actual reality of exposing themselves.

Telling children not to tell others what goes on at home "because we won't be accepted" just propagates fear of others. It teaches them to be fearful of who they are, and it teaches them not to accept others as well.

I think that by not encouraging children to be open about their beliefs, you are going a long way towards undoing a lot of the acceptance of alternative religions. And for what? Fear that you will be persecuted? Supposed fear that your children will be persecuted?

I really don't get it, and I think you are doing yourself and your children a disservice, especially encouraging them to be less than truthful. By buying in to the propaganda about "Evil Fundies" and other such type things, you are propagating a fearful mindset and restricting your growth and that of those around you.

**I've been reading this thread for the past couple of days and I really think those who would tell their children to lie about who they are should be ashamed of themselves, Mods strike me down if you will but I am absolutely appalled.**

I completely agree.

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

I honestly believe that it is the fear that people have of exposing themselves that generates more prejudice, ignorance, and fear than the actual reality of exposing themselves.

The fear is valid.

Teachers undermine grades.

Children will beat the flying crap out of anyone who is "different".

Personal experience. And having watched it happen to other students as a child. Hell, my cousin had her arm broken for being "agnostic".

I was too much of a coward to help them other classmates, just as they were when it was me at the receiving end.

And mine was a relatively liberal school (or rather, both were), only moderately religious undertones for this part of the Bible Belt.

Believe me, you still get beaten or more subtly undermined for your beliefs. It hasn't stopped since I graduated, I still hear a lot about it. The worst forms of the violence yes, but not the general contempt and undermining.

I can't imagine what it's like to live in the more overtly religious areas of the state.

Kchoye, Hiccuping Bat, you've both been incredibly lucky to have not experienced that kind of hate, but it's truly a legitimate concern. It's not just "evil fundie hype." Mainly because its not just the fundies. If you're pagan, even the athiest kids and agnostics have it in for you. Been there done that, and although it was a much more complex situation than "just" religion, it was definitely a component.

It should NEVER be a child's place to stand at the front line of the battle against prejudice.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

The fear is valid.

Teachers undermine grades.

I'm sorry I have to call BS, if a teacher gives someone bad grades because of their religion, or their choice of belief it's up to the parents and people in the community to call that out, if not go to the federal government. There are avenues that can be pursued when that kind of persecution happens. No one is "helpless" in the face of persecution these days.


Children will beat the flying crap out of anyone who is "different". this happens to kids that are fat, have glasses, are in slow classes, wear different clothes. It's the natural establishment of a pecking order among adolescents. I'm not saying it's not a valid concern, my previous post was geared towards people who were encouraging their children to lie and engendering their own forms of prejudice against "normal people." I appreciate what you are saying but I think you may have taken it out of context to prove a point.


Personal experience. And having watched it happen to other students as a child. Hell, my cousin had her arm broken for being "agnostic". I am sorry that happened to your cousin. Truthfully and with no offense intended, I cannot count that as evidence of violence against someone for their belief or lack there of, because frankly it's a third hand account of something that happened years ago. Again, no offense, but I was not a witness to it, and I do not know what precluded her having her arm broken. I understand how that would sway your opinion, but I can't let hearsay sway mine.


I was too much of a coward to help them other classmates, just as they were when it was me at the receiving end. I am very sorry for that, it's unfortunate that you would consider yourself cowardly because of that. Self preservation is natural, and not wanting to speak up because you are afraid of being persecuted is natural. However, that doesn't have anything to do with what I was talking about. I said I was disgusted with people who would encourage their children to lie about their beliefs. If someone is so frightened of their children being persecuted due to location, or local societal climate, they should hugging move! Their children are in danger!


And mine was a relatively liberal school (or rather, both were), only moderately religious undertones for this part of the Bible Belt. mkay


Believe me, you still get beaten or more subtly undermined for your beliefs. It hasn't stopped since I graduated, I still hear a lot about it. The worst forms of the violence yes, but not the general contempt and undermining. Again I call BS, corporal punishment is illegal. I understand the subtle undermining part, but I do not believe that children are being beaten by teachers for their beliefs. If that's not what you meant please clarify.


I can't imagine what it's like to live in the more overtly religious areas of the state. I don't know which state you were talkiing about, but I think I know what you mean and I can, and I've never had a problem, I've lived in Danville, VA, Mannassas, VA, and in Southern Oregon (it has one of the largest resurgent KKK and NeoNazi movements in the US). I was a declared agnostic for the first two years of high school and all of elementary school and I was never made fun of, never beaten, and never had a problem with my teachers.


Kchoye, Hiccuping Bat, you've both been incredibly lucky to have not experienced that kind of hate, but it's truly a legitimate concern. It's not just "evil fundie hype." Mainly because its not just the fundies. If you're pagan, even the athiest kids and agnostics have it in for you. Been there done that, and although it was a much more complex situation than "just" religion, it was definitely a component.

It should NEVER be a child's place to stand at the front line of the battle against prejudice.I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences, and I'm even sorrier that it's tainted your view of others. I agree, a child's place isn't on the front lines battling prejudice. My point was that they shouldn't be put into the position of lying about it.

I stick by my previous assessment and belief.


I honestly believe that it is the fear that people have of exposing themselves that generates more prejudice, ignorance, and fear than the actual reality of exposing themselves.

Telling children not to tell others what goes on at home "because we won't be accepted" just propagates fear of others. It teaches them to be fearful of who they are, and it teaches them not to accept others as well.

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

Well no shit, Kchoye, teachers wouldn't do the beatings. That's common sense.

I didn't state that it was the students because I thought that would be obvious.

And yes it does happen. You want to call broken bones bullshit then you go right the hug ahead.

And o shit, I did say there were other issues in MY CASE. But religion is an issue. I've watched it with other kids, and teachers do turn a blind eye.

You must have had a truly wonderful blessed childhood for you to be able to so fully discredit someone else's life experience.

Good for you, so pleased that your life was love and lollipops but you don't discredit another person because your experience didn't match up.

Different experiences happen in different locations.

It's called regional variation. You might try looking into it. Saying its bad in some places doesn't mean its bad everywhere.

And going with the status quo in SOME places IS a matter of survival.

I never said everyone and everything was bad. For you to say my experience tainted my perception of everyone is the biggest bullshit you've said in your post.

[aluokaloo]

i believe that in some cases its alright to conceal/lie about your religion. not everyone is fortunate to live in such a tolerant place. some places in the world may very well kill you for being a different religion, others while they may not be able to can make the lives of you and your loved ones a living hell.

for those who live with family/friends who are giving them a home either because they must such as in the case of minors or because they have fallen on hard times and can't afford to get kicked out while they try and get back on their feet, i can understand that too.

is it fair? hell no its not! but life's not fair.

have i had to conceal my beliefs, a few times, but that never lasted for very long. i don't discuss it with certain members of my family, but i never hide it from my friends or lovers. if they don't like it then too bad for them. they can go find someone else to hang with.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

Well no shit, Kchoye, teachers wouldn't do the beatings. That's common sense.

I didn't state that it was the students because I thought that would be obvious.

Nothing is assumed. I don't assume for you please don't do it for me. Asking for clarification isn't a crime. If you can provide resources for this please do and it may change my opinion.


And yes it does happen. You want to call broken bones bullshit then you go right the hug ahead.

I didn't call broken bones BS, I said that I can't in all good conscience allow you telling me about someone elses experience sway how I feel about something. It's not responsible.


And o shit, I did say there were other issues in MY CASE. But religion is an issue. I've watched it with other kids, and teachers do turn a blind eye.

You must have had a truly wonderful blessed childhood for you to be able to so fully discredit someone else's life experience. Put down your pitchfork and torch for a second and re-read my post. I wasn't trying to discredit you or invalidate your experiences. I didn't say that what happened to you wasn't true, I said that it wasn't the satus quo.


Good for you, so pleased that your life was love and lollipops but you don't discredit another person because your experience didn't match up. No my life wasn't love and lollipops, I was beaten for reasons other than religion. I come from a very abusive background, and that was at home, not at school. I don't understand why you need to try and use sarcasm in the face of my sympathy for your previous plight, and my healthy scheptisism at your mass generalisations. I don't deserve your ire.


Different experiences happen in different locations.

It's called regional variation. You might try looking into it. Saying its bad in some places doesn't mean its bad everywhere. I've lived in 28 of the lower 48 and Alaska. I'm not sure how much more regionally varried you can get. Again, and again, and again, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. I'm saying that it doesn't happen as often as people think it does. And by insisting that it does, you are fear mongering.


And going with the status quo in SOME places IS a matter of survival.

I never said everyone and everything was bad. For you to say my experience tainted my perception of everyone is the biggest bullshit you've said in your post.CCL this is what I said.


I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences, and I'm even sorrier that it's tainted your view of others. I agree, a child's place isn't on the front lines battling prejudice. My point was that they shouldn't be put into the position of lying about it. I didn't say everyone I said others. As in people with a different opinion than you. I made the mystake of assuming that would go without saying, and I was wrong to do so. Again, I understand that this is a heated topic for you in light of your experiences.

I should have clarified in my previous post. Based on your last couple of posts you have had bad experiences, and I am sorry that what has happened to you has tainted your perception of people who might be like them.

CCL, I understand that this is a heated topic for you. I didn't invalidate anything that you said, as a matter of fact I stated that it was probably correct in your case, but that I couldn't in all good conscience take it as wrote for mine. I'm sorry that you need to react so violently to my stated opinion, and I am very sorry that you need to resort to sarcasm and mean words to prove a point. I don't appreciate you demonizing me for questioning broad brushstroke statements.

Maybe if you take a couple of hours and come back and read what I've written you'll realize that I'm calling for a little bit of temperence. I'm calling for others to rationally view the actual situation as opposed to viewing it through the eyes of what "might" happen, and I think it's wrong to try and bully others into doing so.

Again, I'm sorry that you've had such a rough time of it, you're not the only one. Some of us choose not to take our experiences as wrote for everyone else.

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

*Deep breath*

I'm sorry I have to call BS, if a teacher gives someone bad grades because of their religion, or their choice of belief it's up to the parents and people in the community to call that out, if not go to the federal government. There are avenues that can be pursued when that kind of persecution happens. No one is "helpless" in the face of persecution these days.

This all costs money. You don't have money, you have to endure.

Occasionally you get a magical media driven lawyer who swoops in and saves the day, and that makes news. Undoubtedly these are shading your views about what normally happens in cases of grade discrimination.

Here's another thing. In small towns in the bible belt, newspapers can be equally umm, shall we say, not wanting to disrupt the status quo. They need money and support to keep running. It's not going to go to the media.

That said, if I have time, I will look to see what I can dig up. Since apparently it needs to be written and documented at the time to be a valid life experience for you.

And yes, calling my experience hearsay to my face is denigrating it. Obviously at times I'm rude as hell on here, but I would never NEVER do that to someone's face even in the event that I think it might be BS. Denying someone else's reality, actual life events and reducing them to hearsay...well, to be honest, I'll break my rules once. The same is true of every single thing you said too, so I guess if we can't accept hearsay, than nothing you just said, by your own belief system, can be held to be true since I did not experience it and nor has it been documented.


I said I was disgusted with people who would encourage their children to lie about their beliefs. If someone is so frightened of their children being persecuted due to location, or local societal climate, they should hugging move! Their children are in danger!

:lol: Seriously, you think this is possible in all cases?

You have to have money to move. You can't just magically get up and leave.

And that is why we keep quiet and go with the status quo, because in some circumstances, there is danger.

To say that it is a matter of being seen and heard in order ro reduce mistreatment....basically you are questioning the judgment of the parents who actually live in the locations their kids have to attend school. You are questioning their ability to sense danger.

When really, to do what you suggest, to speak up, to stick out, is like telling a 15 year old that its OK to go for a walk down the street at 2:00 in the morning. Ideally it should be safe. But we live in a sad world where in some places its not always safe.

Your words, to stand up for yourself, to make yourself visible....in the places you've been and seen, from your perspective its fine. But by making a blanket statement that it is OK all the time, without you having been there, without having seen....well, um, yes, you have basically said that everyone who has determined it to be unsafe for their particular circumstances is full of shit.

You have denigrated their experiences as meaningless. You have denigrated their ability to determine whether or not a situation is safe.

People do not always have money to move or hire lawyers, and the institutions where people represent you for free are often woefully understaffed.

Just read what some of the peoplke on the board here have to go through every year trying to make schools safe for their children. Religious reasons or not for the problems, you can't just magically snap your fingers and make it go away.

Change doesn't happen over night. I don't like the idea of hiding any more than you do, but in some places its necessary and I'm not going to tell all the parents who have determined it to be unsafe in their circumstances that they are wrong and they should fight.

Lying is a matter of safety in some circumstances.

CCL

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

*Deep breath*


This all costs money. You don't have money, you have to endure.

Occasionally you get a magical media driven lawyer who swoops in and saves the day, and that makes news. Undoubtedly these are shading your views about what normally happens in cases of grade discrimination.

Here's another thing. In small towns in the bible belt, newspapers can be equally umm, shall we say, not wanting to disrupt the status quo. They need money and support to keep running. It's not going to go to the media.

That said, if I have time, I will look to see what I can dig up. Since apparently it needs to be written and documented at the time to be a valid life experience for you.

You didn't tell me about your life experiences, you mentioned your cousin. I didn't say that your experiences weren't valid, and the quote that you mentioned doesn't event reference what you were talking about, you are quote mining to prove your point. The quote that you pulled had to do with grades being changed on the basis of a student's belief, and you are taking it way out of context.


And yes, calling my experience hearsay to my face is denigrating it. Obviously at times I'm rude as hell on here, but I would never NEVER do that to someone's face even in the event that I think it might be BS. Denying someone else's reality, actual life events and reducing them to hearsay...well, to be honest, I'll break my rules once. The same is true of every single thing you said too, so I guess if we can't accept hearsay, than nothing you just said, by your own belief system, can be held to be true since I did not experience it and nor has it been documented.

Lovey I didn't say your experiences were heresay, I said that you telling me about someone elses experience was heresay.


:lol: Seriously, you think this is possible in all cases?

You have to have money to move. You can't just magically get up and leave.

And that is why we keep quiet and go with the status quo, because in some circumstances, there is danger.

To say that it is a matter of being seen and heard in order ro reduce mistreatment....basically you are questioning the judgment of the parents who actually live in the locations their kids have to attend school. You are questioning their ability to sense danger.

When really, to do what you suggest, to speak up, to stick out, is like telling a 15 year old that its OK to go for a walk down the street at 2:00 in the morning. Ideally it should be safe. But we live in a sad world where in some places its not always safe.

Your words, to stand up for yourself, to make yourself visible....in the places you've been and seen, from your perspective its fine. But by making a blanket statement that it is OK all the time, without you having been there, without having seen....well, um, yes, you have basically said that everyone who has determined it to be unsafe for their particular circumstances is full of shit.

You have denigrated their experiences as meaningless. You have denigrated their ability to determine whether or not a situation is safe.

People do not always have money to move or hire lawyers, and the institutions where people represent you for free are often woefully understaffed.

Just read what some of the peoplke on the board here have to go through every year trying to make schools safe for their children. Religious reasons or not for the problems, you can't just magically snap your fingers and make it go away.

Change doesn't happen over night. I don't like the idea of hiding any more than you do, but in some places its necessary and I'm not going to tell all the parents who have determined it to be unsafe in their circumstances that they are wrong and they should fight.

Lying is a matter of safety in some circumstances.

CCLCCL,

I really don't know where a lot of this is coming from, if you had quoted my post and responded to it rationally then I would understand. What I'm reading here is a lot of directionless babble, and frankly I think you are better than that. I have a lot of respect for you and your opinions. I just don't know where you are getting a lot of this. It doesn't sound like you want to work this out, it sounds like you want to pigeon hole me for what you think I said. I'm not really in to that. I was hoping that I could learn from your experience and discuss them with you. However it seems that you are determined to take a reactionary stand point, and refuse to discuss this with me in an open manner. That's fine. I'm not going to continue to go back and forth with you over this if you are unwilling to discuss this in a calm and rational manner. Especially if you are unwilling to admit that it's a little to close to home to do so. If you want to talk it out feel free to PM me.

have a goodn'

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

OK, as I have time I will try to go through this point by point.

One of the reasons I'm typing so fast is that I'm at work and I don't have time to do the point by point game. So these will be in short and sweet little posts.



I've lived in 28 of the lower 48 and Alaska. I'm not sure how much more regionally varried you can get. Again, and again, and again, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. I'm saying that it doesn't happen as often as people think it does. And by insisting that it does, you are fear mongering.

First, I never insisted that it happened all the time or as often as people think it does. I don't have the statistics. This is putting words in my mouth.

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

I honestly believe that it is the fear that people have of exposing themselves that generates more prejudice, ignorance, and fear than the actual reality of exposing themselves.

Telling children not to tell others what goes on at home "because we won't be accepted" just propagates fear of others. It teaches them to be fearful of who they are, and it teaches them not to accept others as well.

I think that by not encouraging children to be open about their beliefs, you are going a long way towards undoing a lot of the acceptance of alternative religions. And for what? Fear that you will be persecuted? Supposed fear that your children will be persecuted?

I really don't get it, and I think you are doing yourself and your children a disservice, especially encouraging them to be less than truthful. By buying in to the propaganda about "Evil Fundies" and other such type things, you are propagating a fearful mindset and restricting your growth and that of those around you.

**I've been reading this thread for the past couple of days and I really think those who would tell their children to lie about who they are should be ashamed of themselves, Mods strike me down if you will but I am absolutely appalled.**

Second: This is a general statement based on your experiences. Other people have posted that in their area they feel it is unsafe. By saying this as a general statement, it undermines the concerns they've given, that they have developed from assessing the situation where they live. This post makes Chicken-Littles of those who might well have valid concerns.

It is an ideal, but it isn't the reality for a lot of people here.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

The fear is valid.

Teachers undermine grades.

Children will beat the flying crap out of anyone who is "different".

Personal experience. And having watched it happen to other students as a child. Hell, my cousin had her arm broken for being "agnostic".

I was too much of a coward to help them other classmates, just as they were when it was me at the receiving end.

And mine was a relatively liberal school (or rather, both were), only moderately religious undertones for this part of the Bible Belt.

Believe me, you still get beaten or more subtly undermined for your beliefs. It hasn't stopped since I graduated, I still hear a lot about it. The worst forms of the violence yes, but not the general contempt and undermining.

I can't imagine what it's like to live in the more overtly religious areas of the state.

Kchoye, Hiccuping Bat, you've both been incredibly lucky to have not experienced that kind of hate, but it's truly a legitimate concern. It's not just "evil fundie hype." Mainly because its not just the fundies. If you're pagan, even the athiest kids and agnostics have it in for you. Been there done that, and although it was a much more complex situation than "just" religion, it was definitely a component.

It should NEVER be a child's place to stand at the front line of the battle against prejudice.

The bolded lines is the fear mongering I was speaking of.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

Second: This is a general statement based on your experiences. Other people have posted that in their area they feel it is unsafe. By saying this as a general statement, it undermines the concerns they've given, that they have developed from assessing the situation where they live. This post makes Chicken-Littles of those who might well have valid concerns.

It is an ideal, but it isn't the reality for a lot of people here.

And throuout I said, "I feel" and "I believe" thereby putting it into the frame of reference of my opinion. It doesn't make it right and it doesn't make others wrong.

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

Third, telling people they should move....to me that has to be the most...surprising thing said. My sarcasm comes from the fact that I can't see how anyone could consider that applicable in all or even most cases. I kind of half thought you were joking because if its not a joke....well to think even most people have the kind of resources it takes to just get up and move....I can't believe that anyone would assume that.

Therefore I still have to consider that part of your post to be in jest.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

Third, telling people they should move....to me that has to be the most...surprising thing said. My sarcasm comes from the fact that I can't see how anyone could consider that applicable in all or even most cases. I kind of half thought you were joking because if its not a joke....well to think even most people have the kind of resources it takes to just get up and move....I can't believe that anyone would assume that.

Therefore I still have to consider that part of your post to be in jest.

Yes actually it was half in jest, it pisses me off that it's okay for you to be snarky and sarcastic, but when I do it you try to burn me at the hugging stake for it.

The half not in jest is that if someone genuinly feels that their child is in danger and they don't feel that they have any other resources to fix the situation, then yes they should figure out a way to move away from there, or change their situation. Throwing up hands and saying "oh well" has never been an option for me, and if you want to go toe to toe and figure out who had the shittier hugging child-hood go right the hug ahead. I politely requested that we settle this off board but you instisted on doing it here.

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

I'm sorry I have to call BS, if a teacher gives someone bad grades because of their religion, or their choice of belief it's up to the parents and people in the community to call that out, if not go to the federal government. There are avenues that can be pursued when that kind of persecution happens. No one is "helpless" in the face of persecution these days.

Fourth, I'll reiterate, you can't easily take legal action in the manner you indicated.

It costs money in most instances. In the few where you can get a public defender if it gets that far (as in cases where it doesn't work out with the school board), iwell it takes a certain amount of luck.

Even spending a few minutes in the education sub-forum on this board illustrates the hell people go through dealing with the schools for their children (whether it be due to religion or in some cases special-needs.....). I've not payed attention to regions or areas of other posters, knowing that they know more about their areas than I do, thus I have nothing to contribute. I do know that its true of my area, but whatever else the case may be, getting legal aid is a complicated process that does require a lot of luck insofar as everything I've read.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

Fourth, I'll reiterate, you can't easily take legal action in the manner you indicated.

It costs money in most instances. In the few where you can get a public defender if it gets that far (as in cases where it doesn't work out with the school board), iwell it takes a certain amount of luck.

Even spending a few minutes in the education sub-forum on this board illustrates the hell people go through dealing with the schools for their children (whether it be due to religion or in some cases special-needs.....). I've not payed attention to regions or areas of other posters, knowing that they know more about their areas than I do, thus I have nothing to contribute. I do know that its true of my area, but whatever else the case may be, getting legal aid is a complicated process that does require a lot of luck insofar as everything I've read.


:dead:

Wow, so it doesn't actually sound like you have attempted to take legal action for having your grades lowered because of religious persecution. So you don't actually have any first hand experience in this. So you are advocating for people who can very well defend themselves. Am I wrong?

And I'm not saying nor did I say in the post that you quoted that it doesn't happen, I said it doesn't happen as often as you think it does! You are speaking of a minuscule cross section of the population of America. Less than a percent, IT IS NOT THE NORM!

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

I have to catch the train home from work, so I cannot respond to your "points" right away. I'll get back to you later on the rest of them.

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

**I've been reading this thread for the past couple of days and I really think those who would tell their children to lie about who they are should be ashamed of themselves, Mods strike me down if you will but I am absolutely appalled.**

Fifth:

Telling people they should be ashamed of themselves for doing what they can to keep their children safe...in situations where the parents have established that its necessary.

Sidenote:
For the record, yes, I acknowledge that I could have expressed things better in the reaction post. For the record, I've also done the passive-aggressive mode of "I think" phrasing you've used above that is in phasing acceptable but in spirit a condemnation, and gotten the same reaction from many people in the flavor of the way I reacted. Doesn't make my reaction right, and I do apologize for the tone of it, but it's not out of the ordinary for me or a lot of people here.

It is interesting how it plays out. If my overreactions are on the same side as a given group of people they're all over it and I get karma'd for it and told how much my opinions are respected. If it goes against, they're (naturally) upset and offended. What I did wasn't really that out of the ordinary for my posts on the board....what shocks you was that it was directed at the viewpoint you posted. (Ask IG about my irrational posts sometime, he's probably completely exhasperated and disgusted with me on certain issues....;))

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

And I'm not saying nor did I say in the post that you quoted that it doesn't happen, I said it doesn't happen as often as you think it does! You are speaking of a minuscule cross section of the population of America. Less than a percent, IT IS NOT THE NORM!

We've already been over this.




First, I never insisted that it happened all the time or as often as people think it does. I don't have the statistics. This is putting words in my mouth.

Also, less than a percent? I never quoted any percents. Source?

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

Yes actually it was half in jest, it pisses me off that it's okay for you to be snarky and sarcastic, but when I do it you try to burn me at the hugging stake for it.

The half not in jest is that if someone genuinly feels that their child is in danger and they don't feel that they have any other resources to fix the situation, then yes they should figure out a way to move away from there, or change their situation. Throwing up hands and saying "oh well" has never been an option for me, and if you want to go toe to toe and figure out who had the shittier hugging child-hood go right the hug ahead. I politely requested that we settle this off board but you instisted on doing it here.

I agree with this. But sometimes figuring out how to fix it can take years.

My parents did ultimately have the resources to move. Others, not so lucky.

I've actually never had a request to settle off-board before, and I like to hear input from other people. One of the reasons I kept going was to see if other people would wish to post their experiences.

Of course most of them probably don't see the point of reiterating the bad experiences that are posted all over this board.

And admittedly they probably don't want to add fuel to either of our fires at this point....

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

:dead:

Wow, so it doesn't actually sound like you have attempted to take legal action for having your grades lowered because of religious persecution. So you don't actually have any first hand experience in this. So you are advocating for people who can very well defend themselves. Am I wrong?
!

In my case I was a child. I do believe that's the parent's prerogative to take legal action or not.

And since hearsay by your standards isn't allowed, I can only reiterate the fact that there are quite a few cases on this board where people actually provide a first hand account of their experiences.

I've been reprimanded in the past for providing cross links to other threads, and while I suspect it would be OK here I'm not going to push the line farther than I have already. You get to do your own homework on that, unless the people who have been involved in such cases would like to post the links to their own threads.

So, no justification for your likewise beating the dead horse over my lack of firsthand experience since I already told you about the firsthand experiences all over the board.

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

Soo....I see lots of names at the bottom of the screen reading this thread...Opinions? Have we completely derailed this thread? Scared everyone else off? Am I being the thick headed one?

Shall I close my trap? I'm all bit out, I promise not to bite anyone else's head off....

Or is everyone enjoying their popcorn....?

:ggrief:

[Kalika]

Is there a good reason to lie or conceal your beliefs, practices, faith?

Yes. Aside from the obvious close-mindedness (such as having your children taken away, being placed in a mental institution, etc), not everyone is comfortable enough with their path to openly share it. Should you lie about it... no, I don't think so. Are there times you should conceal it or be less-than-open about it? Yes, I think so.

If asked directly, I'll answer... other than that, I still often give vague answers. It depends on the person, place, and timing. There are very few (and very rare) instances where I think I would be able to condone lying about my path.



Have you ever had to conceal yours? From whom? (only if you want to share, of course)

Yes. For a very long time, I was "in the closet" so to speak. Now, most people know... even if we don't talk about it much, or at all.



Or do you feel you should always be honest, no matter what the consequences are (even violence, death, loss of a home, family, etc)?

I would love to be able to say that there is no reason you shouldn't always be honest. With the examples mentioned above, personal experience, and the myriad of other things that could go wrong that I probably can't even imagine... I can't say that.

I think that if people could better take things in context, apply common sense and genuine curiousity to things rather than shunning them automatically or assuming they know what something is, means, or is about.... then we'd be able to be more open and forthcoming without so much fear of how people are going to react, or how we'll be treated in the society that we have to function in. If there is one thing I've learned, it's that people will twist things around into a way that suits them best if they want to cause you trouble...sometimes the best way to avoid it is just avoid those people altogether and keep your mouth shut around them.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

We've already been over this.



Also, less than a percent? I never quoted any percents. Source?

I was talking about the number of American MW Users VS the population of the US. Even if every one of them had this same set of shared experiences RE the OP it would total less than a percent. I realize that it is an invalid point all things considered, but I was firmly entrenched in my moral high ground and didn't feel like stepping back and taking a breath.


I agree with this. But sometimes figuring out how to fix it can take years.

My parents did ultimately have the resources to move. Others, not so lucky.

I've actually never had a request to settle off-board before, and I like to hear input from other people. One of the reasons I kept going was to see if other people would wish to post their experiences.

Of course most of them probably don't see the point of reiterating the bad experiences that are posted all over this board.

And admittedly they probably don't want to add fuel to either of our fires at this point....

I feel like we have enhanced the conversation on the thread, but our individual nit-pickings can be arduous to read through. My request to settle off thread, was so that we could talk out some of the personal detraction that both of us were toeing the line on. I don't like it when things start getting personal in a public forum and I don't like calling people out, I feel like it is disrespectful not to give someone the chance to speak their peace in a private forum.


In my case I was a child. I do believe that's the parent's prerogative to take legal action or not.

And since hearsay by your standards isn't allowed, I can only reiterate the fact that there are quite a few cases on this board where people actually provide a first hand account of their experiences.

I've been reprimanded in the past for providing cross links to other threads, and while I suspect it would be OK here I'm not going to push the line farther than I have already. You get to do your own homework on that, unless the people who have been involved in such cases would like to post the links to their own threads.

So, no justification for your likewise beating the dead horse over my lack of firsthand experience since I already told you about the firsthand experiences all over the board.

mkay


Fifth:

Telling people they should be ashamed of themselves for doing what they can to keep their children safe...in situations where the parents have established that its necessary.

You are right, I crossed a line and for that I am sorry. I got caught up in the vernacular rather than the spirit of what was being discussed.


Sidenote:
For the record, yes, I acknowledge that I could have expressed things better in the reaction post. For the record, I've also done the passive-aggressive mode of "I think" phrasing you've used above that is in phasing acceptable but in spirit a condemnation, and gotten the same reaction from many people in the flavor of the way I reacted. Doesn't make my reaction right, and I do apologize for the tone of it, but it's not out of the ordinary for me or a lot of people here.

It is interesting how it plays out. If my overreactions are on the same side as a given group of people they're all over it and I get karma'd for it and told how much my opinions are respected. If it goes against, they're (naturally) upset and offended. What I did wasn't really that out of the ordinary for my posts on the board....what shocks you was that it was directed at the viewpoint you posted. (Ask IG about my irrational posts sometime, he's probably completely exhasperated and disgusted with me on certain issues....;))Thank you for admitting that, it's a hard thing to do, and frankly I am guilty of it myself. However, I respectfully disagree with the bolded statement. I don't generally see you as snarky and sarcastic, while I am guilty of it myself, it's not something I've seen you do too often. I consider you to be a thoughtful and respectful person. Maybe my perception is tainted due to the fact that I am on the recieving end of this, and granted I haven't gone back and read your post history. But the way you reacted to me, in regards to the topic at hand, was well outside of my perception of you.


Yes. Aside from the obvious close-mindedness (such as having your children taken away, being placed in a mental institution, etc), not everyone is comfortable enough with their path to openly share it. Should you lie about it... no, I don't think so. Are there times you should conceal it or be less-than-open about it? Yes, I think so.

Is this a function of the way the people in question are treating their children as an avenue of their beliefs, or a function of having those beliefs? I've heard of cases where parents were using children in ritual, and having SS get involved because of it, but it was pretty heady stuff.


If asked directly, I'll answer... other than that, I still often give vague answers. It depends on the person, place, and timing. There are very few (and very rare) instances where I think I would be able to condone lying about my path.



Yes. For a very long time, I was "in the closet" so to speak. Now, most people know... even if we don't talk about it much, or at all.



I would love to be able to say that there is no reason you shouldn't always be honest. With the examples mentioned above, personal experience, and the myriad of other things that could go wrong that I probably can't even imagine... I can't say that.

I think that if people could better take things in context, apply common sense and genuine curiousity to things rather than shunning them automatically or assuming they know what something is, means, or is about.... then we'd be able to be more open and forthcoming without so much fear of how people are going to react, or how we'll be treated in the society that we have to function in. If there is one thing I've learned, it's that people will twist things around into a way that suits them best if they want to cause you trouble...sometimes the best way to avoid it is just avoid those people altogether and keep your mouth shut around them.I agree with most of what you are saying here. How do you suggest we educate people on the realities of alternate religion? How can we change this perception? What are these perceptions caused by? How as a society can we nurture a more open forum for belief?

[Lunacie]

Yep, I avoid certain people, and certain topics of discussion. If I can't avoid, I simply keep my mouth shut for the most part. At least until I can hazard a guess as to the reaction that revealing my religion would prompt.

And as I mentioned earlier, if it were just me I'd be happy to tell people that I'm a Wiccan and try to answer questions. But if it could bring grief down on my friends and make others wonder why they're hanging with me - or bring troubles down on my daughter or grandkids, then I think it was David who posted "To Know, To Dare, To Will, and To Be Silent." There is a time for each of those.

[David19]

The fear is valid.

Teachers undermine grades.

Children will beat the flying crap out of anyone who is "different".

Kchoye, Hiccuping Bat, you've both been incredibly lucky to have not experienced that kind of hate, but it's truly a legitimate concern. It's not just "evil fundie hype." Mainly because its not just the fundies. If you're pagan, even the athiest kids and agnostics have it in for you. Been there done that, and although it was a much more complex situation than "just" religion, it was definitely a component.

It should NEVER be a child's place to stand at the front line of the battle against prejudice.


I'm sorry I have to call BS, if a teacher gives someone bad grades because of their religion, or their choice of belief it's up to the parents and people in the community to call that out, if not go to the federal government. There are avenues that can be pursued when that kind of persecution happens. No one is "helpless" in the face of persecution these days.

this happens to kids that are fat, have glasses, are in slow classes, wear different clothes. It's the natural establishment of a pecking order among adolescents. I'm not saying it's not a valid concern, my previous post was geared towards people who were encouraging their children to lie and engendering their own forms of prejudice against "normal people." I appreciate what you are saying but I think you may have taken it out of context to prove a point.

I am sorry that happened to your cousin. Truthfully and with no offense intended, I cannot count that as evidence of violence against someone for their belief or lack there of, because frankly it's a third hand account of something that happened years ago. Again, no offense, but I was not a witness to it, and I do not know what precluded her having her arm broken. I understand how that would sway your opinion, but I can't let hearsay sway mine.

I am very sorry for that, it's unfortunate that you would consider yourself cowardly because of that. Self preservation is natural, and not wanting to speak up because you are afraid of being persecuted is natural. However, that doesn't have anything to do with what I was talking about. I said I was disgusted with people who would encourage their children to lie about their beliefs. If someone is so frightened of their children being persecuted due to location, or local societal climate, they should hugging move! Their children are in danger!

mkay

Again I call BS, corporal punishment is illegal. I understand the subtle undermining part, but I do not believe that children are being beaten by teachers for their beliefs. If that's not what you meant please clarify.

I don't know which state you were talkiing about, but I think I know what you mean and I can, and I've never had a problem, I've lived in Danville, VA, Mannassas, VA, and in Southern Oregon (it has one of the largest resurgent KKK and NeoNazi movements in the US). I was a declared agnostic for the first two years of high school and all of elementary school and I was never made fun of, never beaten, and never had a problem with my teachers.

I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences, and I'm even sorrier that it's tainted your view of others. I agree, a child's place isn't on the front lines battling prejudice. My point was that they shouldn't be put into the position of lying about it.

I stick by my previous assessment and belief.

I'm going to have to agree with kchoye, if teachers are failing kids, 'cause of their religion, there are a lot of avenues to go through, and, not only that, I'm sure there are many, many lawyers out there who'd love to take on the case just for the publicity they could get.

While it's true kids do target those who are different, unfortunately, and I'm sure Pagan kids have gotten beaten up, I also doubt the Pagan kids are entirely innocent either, LGBT kids are one of the worst victimised groups in schools, so, it's probably likely Pagan kids have a go at them too.

I went to a CoE (Church of England) Primary School (Elementary school for those in the U.S.), and people knew I didn't really have a religion or go to Church, and it made no difference, whatsoever, and, in secondary (high) school, pretty much the majority of people were Atheists, and still there weren't any problems between those of different religions.

[*oonagh*]

not saying anything or feigning disinterest in the topic works out just as well.

ya know, we are (okay...i was...i have no idea about anyone else here) brought up being taught that speaking about politics and/or religion and/or money is too personal and therefore rude.

one does not have to lie. but, one does not have to disclose any information one does not wish to disclose.

as for the, rather long, conversation posted here. it's a shame that people have to grow up under such harsh circumstances. unfortunately, that is just the way it is sometimes. i wish the world was a gentler place. it's not. does that mean children should be taught to lie? no. keep their mouths shut, maybe. but, it's never okay to teach a child to lie. heck, a lot of parents are already spending a great deal of time and effort teaching children to *not* lie.

also, it's not really appropriate to tell parents that they should be ashamed of themselves. parents have it hard enough. maybe they are wrong. maybe they need help.

i wasn't going to comment, but i saw the request for some outside input.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

ya know, we are (okay...i was...i have no idea about anyone else here) brought up being taught that speaking about politics and/or religion and/or money is too personal and therefore rude.

one does not have to lie. but, one does not have to disclose any information one does not wish to disclose.

as for the, rather long, conversation posted here. it's a shame that people have to grow up under such harsh circumstances. unfortunately, that is just the way it is sometimes. i wish the world was a gentler place. it's not. does that mean children should be taught to lie? no. keep their mouths shut, maybe. but, it's never okay to teach a child to lie. heck, a lot of parents are already spending a great deal of time and effort teaching children to *not* lie.

also, it's not really appropriate to tell parents that they should be ashamed of themselves. parents have it hard enough. maybe they are wrong. maybe they need help.

i wasn't going to comment, but i saw the request for some outside input.


Yes Oohagh, thank you it has been brought to my attention that I crossed the line and I have already apologized for it.

[Windsmith]

Honestly, I find myself concealing my true beliefs around fellow Pagans far more often than I do among the general populace. A lot of people know I'm Pagan, but usually they don't bother to inquire further into what that means.

But around other Pagans, there's a general assumption about what my beliefs will be, and I'm not yet comfortable telling most fellow witches, "Actually, I'm nondeistic, and I'm agnostic at best about any sort of afterlife or reincarnation."

[Toki Wartooth]

Honestly, I find myself concealing my true beliefs around fellow Pagans far more often than I do among the general populace. A lot of people know I'm Pagan, but usually they don't bother to inquire further into what that means.

But around other Pagans, there's a general assumption about what my beliefs will be, and I'm not yet comfortable telling most fellow witches, "Actually, I'm nondeistic, and I'm agnostic at best about any sort of afterlife or reincarnation."

I'm glad you brought this up because I sometimes feel I'm doing that, too. I don't bring it up, but I definitely keep quiet. (I don't believe in faeries, unicorns, dragons, and some other beings and concepts.) I actually admitted it today to some that are "regulars" at the moon circles I attend because I trust them more than most, but it felt odd.

[*oonagh*]

Yes Oohagh, thank you it has been brought to my attention that I crossed the line and I have already apologized for it.

no...no...i don't think you crossed the line at all. you said what you felt and what you believed. i just kinda thought about it all and did the same. i certainly wasn't looking to make you feel bad about it.

[Kalika]

Is this a function of the way the people in question are treating their children as an avenue of their beliefs, or a function of having those beliefs? I've heard of cases where parents were using children in ritual, and having SS get involved because of it, but it was pretty heady stuff.

You'd think, right? But no. Sometimes, all it takes is admitting that you are a pagan to get child services called on you. While that alone won't get your children taken away, etc - it is a huge pain in the rear for the people involved.


I agree with most of what you are saying here. How do you suggest we educate people on the realities of alternate religion? How can we change this perception? What are these perceptions caused by? How as a society can we nurture a more open forum for belief?

I'd love to educate more people about Paganism, and I take my opportunities to do so where I get them. Sadly, however, most people just don't care enough to learn about something that doesn't directly affect them. Non-pagans who aren't open to religious tolerance, etc. don't want to learn more about it - they just want it to be bad, to be promoted as something bad, and vilify it at every opportunity.

The perceptions that people have of "mainstream paganism" are probably our own faults. (Not yours and mine necessarily, but everyone together, you see.) Walk into a pagan bookstore, and what are some of the first things you see? "Fluffy" stuff, as some people call it - the white candles,
the books on Wicca-lite, the pretty fairy statues, etc....those are usually at the front of the stores. There are also those at the opposite end of the spectrum - dark walls, hanging skulls, and all of the "dark" things toward the front - to scare and impress passersby. While neither is necessarily wrong - both lend to stereotypes. Either the stereotype that all pagans are Wiccans, and Wiccans tend to be a little air-headed (Note: not my opinion, before ya'll start yelling at me)....or that all pagans are dark, scary people who are goth/emo. Take your pick of those or others that exist....they are just a couple of examples.

While it would be nice to just be accepted as we are, and not plugged into a stereotype... too many things exist to foster these stereotypes for them to ever completely go away. Let's face it...stereotypes come from a common denominator representing the group that results in the stereotype... so it means they are out there, somewhere.

The best way to counteract it? Like I said above... take your opportunities as they're given. Someone expresses a genuine interest in your path? Be able to speak intelligently about it, and patiently answer questions. Don't get angry when they throw a stereotype at you, or an "I thought all pagans were ________." Explain to them why that's not the case, and let them walk away with something new rattling around in that brain of theirs.

[Kaliayev]

ya know, we are (okay...i was...i have no idea about anyone else here) brought up being taught that speaking about politics and/or religion and/or money is too personal and therefore rude.

True.

I don't actually believe it is, but I'm willing to use other peoples belief that it is to avoid answering questions I don't want to, or feel like answering.

[RuneicResearch]

I don't like to lie about anything, bad mojo there, and I am honest about my spiritual choices to anyone who cares to ask about them. The only time I would consider lying is if my life was in danger because of it, and I doubt things would ever get that extreme. I've only heard a little about this silver ravenwolf path thing, but telling people to hide the truth from their families makes them seem like some dangerous cult, and nothing more. I have other, more personal beliefs about the world around me that I keep to myself, because it offends pretty much everyone I speak to though.

[moodybeautiful]

I've had to lie and cover up practicing withcraft as a kid, two girlfriends, ... Sucks. :weirdsmil
but my parents are starting to open up to accepting my spirituality, my vegetarian ways, ect. That's something I feel like I don't have to lie about anymore. especially since my mom's random obsession with vampires from true blood.
my gay side, not so much. They're in denial. Don't ask, don't tell type of stuff. Oh well. I won't live with them forever.
Hiding stuff really hurts. Especially for someone who likes to wear their heart on their sleeve. The people around you can't share in your joy or sympathize with your sorrow. I wish there was a way around it, but I haven't found a good one yet. My parents just shun me when I expose certain aspects of ME. So I've learned to keep them to myself.

[TheLittleWitchy]

I used to hide it as much as possible. But now I don't really. There are a few things I keep hidden, such as certain books which state "Witchcraft" or something on the front. But for the most part, all of my things are out in the open. I haven't told anyone I am a witch, though my family call me a witch anyway cause of the stuff they have seen. At the moment I am not that bothered. But I wouldn't want anyone at work to know, because they would gossip about it and talk behind my back.

Lying is sometimes a good idea in my opinion. To be honest, I don't think that what I believe in is anyone elses business. I don't need others approval, or to inform others of what I believe. And I think it's rude if people ask "Why do you believe in that?" - Christians aren't put on the spot like that, others just accept it. So basically, there is no point to tell anyone about what you believe in, even family.

[CuddleFish]

I live in one of those situations where it would be very, very bad if certain people found out the truth. I do wish I could be more open about it, though.

My SO knows, he's fine with it and even happy for me. I thought my mom was going to throw me a party when she found out I wasn't Christian anymore, but I haven't told her anything specific, either. My dad's about the same. I'm not sure they'd be as okay with 'mom, dad, I'm a witch!' My grandparents are old and I just don't want to stress them out since they are very devout. I once told my grandpa that I thought God wasn't denominational, as long as you believed Jesus was your savior, it was all good and he got all huffy just over that. :ugh: Once they are gone, I might tell the rest of my family. I think my uncle just thinks I'm backslidden at the moment. Part of me really wants to tell him just because he freaked me out and got me into that crazy cult in the first place, and more recently tried to 'intervene' when he heard I was going into counseling, which he thinks is of the devil or something. I'm being good, so far...

Do I lie? No. I hope I never get put in a spot where I would have to. I just don't talk about it, usually.

I teach my kids about mythology some, I explain songs to them. I teach them different people believe different things and that's okay. I'm honest with them at their level. I do worry about them a bit, specifically the bit about their "father". They are little yet so it's not like they have any real notion of religion anyway.

It was fun trying to explain the older one singing Hoof and Horn in front of the bonfire at the family picnic, though. 'No grandma, it's not a song about the devil.....' And he refused to sing anything else! (Or even stop) :giggle: If you teach your kids something, it will come out eventually. I didn't go into details, (lovely weather, isn't it?) and it got glossed over, thankfully. I think they went into denial. But part of me was really sad that I couldn't tell my family about that part of my life without causing a major scene.

[KC Destroyer of Worlds]

no...no...i don't think you crossed the line at all. you said what you felt and what you believed. i just kinda thought about it all and did the same. i certainly wasn't looking to make you feel bad about it.

Sorry *oonagh* I was wearing my defensive pants. I was sharp with you and that was uncalled for. You were right, what I said was rude.

[*oonagh*]

Sorry *oonagh* I was wearing my defensive pants. I was sharp with you and that was uncalled for. You were right, what I said was rude.

not at all. please don't feel bad. :hugz:

[Darth Brooks]

Is there a good reason to lie or conceal your beliefs, practices, faith?

Sure, if you have good reason to believe you might get killed for your faith.


Have you ever had to conceal yours? From whom? (only if you want to share, of course)I've had to "pretend" to be Christian once or twice, and I had a bit of fun doing it. But at this point, I refuse to hide my faith from anybody, even if they are willing to kill me for it.


Or do you feel you should always be honest, no matter what the consequences are (even violence, death, loss of a home, family, etc)?I think everybody's situations are different and the best person to decide a good course of action is the person involved in the particular situation.

As for me, I don't care. I'm not one to throw my faith in people's faces or to wear it on my sleeve, but I will praise Set every chance I get, and I will not compromise. If I have to listen to people talk about Jesus wherever I go, then they have to listen to me talk about Set whenever I'm around. Yes, I would die for it if I had to. But I do not hold everyone else to the expectations I have for myself.

[David19]

Sure, if you have good reason to believe you might get killed for your faith.

I've had to "pretend" to be Christian once or twice, and I had a bit of fun doing it. But at this point, I refuse to hide my faith from anybody, even if they are willing to kill me for it.

I think everybody's situations are different and the best person to decide a good course of action is the person involved in the particular situation.

As for me, I don't care. I'm not one to throw my faith in people's faces or to wear it on my sleeve, but I will praise Set every chance I get, and I will not compromise. If I have to listen to people talk about Jesus wherever I go, then they have to listen to me talk about Set whenever I'm around. Yes, I would die for it if I had to. But I do not hold everyone else to the expectations I have for myself.

I really like the strength of your faith, DB, that's something I admire, and can agree with (well almost, it's not so much an issue for me now, as I don't really have a path or God(s) now).

This is why I really like your posts.

[LunarSoldier]

No I've never lied about my beliefs or tried to conceal it. I'm very honest when I tell people my beliefs. I don't care what they think of me and whatever they say against my path is their problem, really.