The three realms a christian cosmology?

[Nuadu]

Ive seen some threads on the three realms around the place but I dont think anyone on site actually looked at the christian content in the concept. The Nem, Talam, Mur 'Cosmology' is taken to be a 'survival' but did anyone take into consideration that the words used are common christian terminology...

Take Nem for example. Nem IMO is mistranslated as sky because there is a distinction in the modern Irish that I speak - Speir is sky and Neamh decended from the Old Irish word Nem is Heaven. That the distinction is necessary at all is proof of the words historical meaning but on top of that its use in our lit. from the 8th century onwards refers to the Christian Heaven. We have a tiny amount of lit before that stage and even that like the voyage of bran has huge christian influence... why isnt the three realms a christian idea?

An example of the blatant christian use of the terms is Saint Brigit imploring men to look to christianity for council instead of temporal concerns. She says:
If your wife would be your counsel,
you will have neither earth (Talam) nor heaven (Nem);
woe to him who forsakes the whole
for the love of a single soul.

Talamh agus Neamh is the Irish language counterpart of the english saying 'Heaven and Earth'. Since that Talam and Nem are in common usage in christian religion couldnt Mur where it exists in mythology just have been tacked on to make a christian concept match the triplicity common in Irish (as opposed to roman/latin influenced christian) lit.

I am genuinely baffled, have I missed a piece of the argument somewhere?

[Nuadu]

Thirtysomething people have read this thread and not responded...
I suppose I should bring the idea into territory that doesnt require you to have Irish or study christianity.

When this topic is brought up the usual thing to do to prove the three realms concept exists is to quote the cattle raid of cooley. I see three problems with using that story as proof: the earliest copies we have are compilations from the 12th century, the use of 3 realms in the cattle raid shows an emphasis on christian usage and a christian dualism in cosmology, contemporaries of that text taken as having an earlier date then the cattle raid have an explicit christian cosmology.

1) 12th century Ireland is a Christian Ireland and not just Irish christian, it was a time of Roman Catholic doctrine - a doctrine also supported by the anglo norman invaders who had taken part in the crusades. The history of compilations like the cattle raid is one of christian literary innovation and the book of invasions is a prime example being an insular version of the chronicle of prosper of Aquitaine, there is nothing in the cattle raid that indicates it is the exception to the rule in compilations. It was written by christians in monasteries and has a christian bias so why would Irish monks studiously promoting their religion in the native context in the text allow a pagan cosmology in the text along side that?

2) The three realms concept degenerates in the story from a triplicity into a duality when the Mur or water part of the triad is diminished. Cu Chulainn asks Heaven (Nem) earth (Talam) but substitutes the Sea for the local river a subordinate part of the local territory matching the christian concept of the sea being a part of the realm of earth.

There is a big problem with that section too, he plainly isnt calling to the elements for help since River isnt an element. Cu Chulainns godly father Lugh walks onto the battle field and slaughters his enemies for 3 nights un asked if he wanted help why not ask for help from his father or 'the gods that my people swear by'? That woudl be unusually aesectic for honour driven Irish society and it would be out of charactor for the archetypal warrior youth. Calling to heaven for help IMO is blatantly christian.

3) The destruction of the red mans hostel is an older story then the cattle raid but the christian cosmology is present there. Conaire Mar Irelands Solomon giving a judgement on an unusual noise says maybe 'the earth moved or the Leviathan that surrounds the earth cracked its tail' or invaders had landed as had taken place in the story. The Leviathan is from the old testement...

The 3 realms cosmology in cattle raid comes from a time when Ireland was christian and was written by a christian monk, the cosmology is used by the most pagan of charactors in a christian context and contemporary similar stories and stories older still have obvious christian influence in the cosmologies presented. Given that how is the three realms cosmology in the cattle raid pagan and not christian?

Add to that the words themselves have christian meaning.

[odubhain]

Ive seen some threads on the three realms around the place but I dont think anyone on site actually looked at the christian content in the concept. The Nem, Talam, Mur 'Cosmology' is taken to be a 'survival' but did anyone take into consideration that the words used are common christian terminology...

Take Nem for example. Nem IMO is mistranslated as sky because there is a distinction in the modern Irish that I speak - Speir is sky and Neamh decended from the Old Irish word Nem is Heaven. That the distinction is necessary at all is proof of the words historical meaning but on top of that its use in our lit. from the 8th century onwards refers to the Christian Heaven. We have a tiny amount of lit before that stage and even that like the voyage of bran has huge christian influence... why isnt the three realms a christian idea?

An example of the blatant christian use of the terms is Saint Brigit imploring men to look to christianity for council instead of temporal concerns. She says:
If your wife would be your counsel,
you will have neither earth (Talam) nor heaven (Nem);
woe to him who forsakes the whole
for the love of a single soul.

Talamh agus Neamh is the Irish language counterpart of the english saying 'Heaven and Earth'. Since that Talam and Nem are in common usage in christian religion couldnt Mur where it exists in mythology just have been tacked on to make a christian concept match the triplicity common in Irish (as opposed to roman/latin influenced christian) lit.

I am genuinely baffled, have I missed a piece of the argument somewhere?

The idea of the three realms predates Christianity in Indo-European and Celtic traditions by 500 to thousands of years. Christianity added the three realms in to their practices along with a whole slew of other beliefs and practices from earlier Pagan traditions.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Nuadu]

So ive heard said Searles but I would see three problems with an indo european cosmology in relation to Ireland. One IE idea's rely on Comparative linguistics for information, two being an IE cosmology still wouldnt proclude the 3 realms in Irish lit being christian in origin and three the Irish language has verb forms unique to all IE languages so its not possible to infer a common understanding to our people through our language.

1) Cultures arent black and white so inferring a common understanding among different peoples from a word is a mistake. Thats the downfall of comparative linguistics.

Take the Irish word glas as an example, it literally translates as a pure colour to green, blue or grey, in reference to nature it can refer to any leafy vegitation, grass or a horse... can that be given an indo european meaning with comparative linguistics?

Even if you get a bunch of words like glas, that may have been pronounced similarly and may mean horse that doesnt mean the words have all the same meanings in other cultures that it does in the Irish Culture and so it cant be inferred that the Irish shares any similar meaning at all. Thats just one word subject to native understanding, indoeuropean cosmology implies that something far more complex is being conveyed through a dictionary understanding of languages.

2) Besides Searles, since there is no part of the myths where the three realms concept isnt coloured by christianity even if it was an IE thing it wouldnt mean its an Irish cosmology in origin - which is what is inferred by three realms in neopaganism. Its equally likely that because the concept could have been absorbed anywhere in europe prior to christianity reaching Ireland and is existance in our lit is down to a christian origin. The problem with theory and religion is theory is transient where as religious belief is concrete. Its a mistake to apply one to the other.

3) Taking the extreme IE tack Ireland also has verb forms unique to all IE languages and with that difference present in the language there is nothing to say that our language prior to celtic influence in the iron age, wasnt like the basque or the finnish and completely distinct to IE. From that our culture completely distinct.

We know Christianity has IE influences through its status in the Holy Roman Empire and where there is evidence for the IE in christianity there is evidence against IE influence in Irish culture. Cos of that the IE argument IMO leans towards the three realms being Christian.

[odubhain]

The three realms idea of Christianity was most likely inherited by it from the prior Pagan IndoEuropean traditions. This means that it and Irish cosmology converge again like the three streams from Seán O'Duinn's book.

Fire, wells and trees being used in ritual strongly suggest a reflection of the three realms idea in Irish and in Indian Pagan rituals.

The oaths quoted in Irish literature attributed to folks like Cormac are almost identical to those on the three realms made by Celts on the Continent to Alexander the Great in the Fourth Century BCE.

Since *ALL* of the surviving literature in Irish tradition comes to us through the writings of groups influenced by Christianity, one must understand the Christian viewpoint, the IndoEuropean viewpoint and then screen them from the stories to discover what is uniquely Irish in them. That the Irish traditions have an intersection with Christian and IndoEuropean traditions is natural considering that both came to Ireland and became a part of its own traditions.

The presence of the three realms concept in all three traditions should not be surprising. Druids strongly used what has been called triadic logic to view most things. Viewing the world in this way along with its cosmology is very Druidic and because of that is also very Irish IMO. Aftyer all, there are triple spirals on the walls at Newgrange and other places. Christians did not place them there and their pecking there is at least contemporaneous with the earliest IndoEuropean traditions. The triple spiral image is the epitome of the three realms cosmology. It speaks directly to our most ancient forms of consciousness.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Faol-chù]

Honestly, Nuadu,

This response it why I did not respond to the original post. You have already made up your mind. I know that. I could post ad nauseum and it would not change your ideas.

My response would have been similar to Searles'.

I know that 'comparing' has its limitations. While I do not have Irish, I *DO* have some Scottish Gaelic. The only thing I don't have is experience as a native irish.
I also know comparing can be very informative...even lead to some pretty enlightening revelations.
I understand your rejection of the pidgeon-holing...really I do....Which is why I can't and won't argue with a lot of your points.

I do,though, have a couple of book recommendations that explain why I feel differently after my studies...right or wrong.
Of course, they deal with comparative linquistics, and you likely will reject them for that reason.

...But for what it's worth, here they are:

Death, War, and Sacrifice by Bruce Lincoln...and, for what it's worth, I do not agree with all that he says. I've weighed the information against other sources, and against my own intuition.

Celtic Heritage: Ancient Tradition in Ireland and Wales, by Alwyn and Brinley Rees


Don't ask me to pick it apart, either, because, while I own one of these books, I'm past the point in my learning where I really care to take the time to debate this. :smileroll:boing:

Take care, Nuadu..:)





So ive heard said Searles but I would see three problems with an indo european cosmology in relation to Ireland. One IE idea's rely on Comparative linguistics for information, two being an IE cosmology still wouldnt proclude the 3 realms in Irish lit being christian in origin and three the Irish language has verb forms unique to all IE languages so its not possible to infer a common understanding to our people through our language.

1) Cultures arent black and white so inferring a common understanding among different peoples from a word is a mistake. Thats the downfall of comparative linguistics.

Take the Irish word glas as an example, it literally translates as a pure colour to green, blue or grey, in reference to nature it can refer to any leafy vegitation, grass or a horse... can that be given an indo european meaning with comparative linguistics?

Even if you get a bunch of words like glas, that may have been pronounced similarly and may mean horse that doesnt mean the words have all the same meanings in other cultures that it does in the Irish Culture and so it cant be inferred that the Irish shares any similar meaning at all. Thats just one word subject to native understanding, indoeuropean cosmology implies that something far more complex is being conveyed through a dictionary understanding of languages.

2) Besides Searles, since there is no part of the myths where the three realms concept isnt coloured by christianity even if it was an IE thing it wouldnt mean its an Irish cosmology in origin - which is what is inferred by three realms in neopaganism. Its equally likely that because the concept could have been absorbed anywhere in europe prior to christianity reaching Ireland and is existance in our lit is down to a christian origin. The problem with theory and religion is theory is transient where as religious belief is concrete. Its a mistake to apply one to the other.

3) Taking the extreme IE tack Ireland also has verb forms unique to all IE languages and with that difference present in the language there is nothing to say that our language prior to celtic influence in the iron age, wasnt like the basque or the finnish and completely distinct to IE. From that our culture completely distinct.

We know Christianity has IE influences through its status in the Holy Roman Empire and where there is evidence for the IE in christianity there is evidence against IE influence in Irish culture. Cos of that the IE argument IMO leans towards the three realms being Christian.

[Seren_]

The main argument in favour of it being pre-Christian in origin is that the three realm formula was used in Christian materials like Saltair na Rann, the poems of Blathmac, songs from Carmina Gadelica and so on - apparently in favour of the more appropriately Christian "heaven and earth". Some of these predate The Táin by at least a few centuries. Why mention the three realms in a Christian context (but most especially in relation to the Genesis story) at all, unless there was an existing (probably pre-Christian in origin) tradition? Mac Mathuna goes into this, for anyone who's not seen it already.
(http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/celtica/c23/c23-174.pdf)
Other than that, I don't have anything to add to what Searles and Faol-Chù have said. You've already made your mind up it seems.

[Nuadu]

Honestly, Nuadu,

This response it why I did not respond to the original post. You have already made up your mind. I know that. I could post ad nauseum and it would not change your ideas.


Take care, Nuadu..:)

Fair enough Foal Chu thanks for replying

[Nuadu]

Other than that, I don't have anything to add to what Searles and Faol-Chù have said. You've already made your mind up it seems.

Well thanks for replying anyway Seren.

[Nuadu]

Since *ALL* of the surviving literature in Irish tradition comes to us through the writings of groups influenced by Christianity, one must understand the Christian viewpoint, the IndoEuropean viewpoint and then screen them from the stories to discover what is uniquely Irish in them. That the Irish traditions have an intersection with Christian and IndoEuropean traditions is natural considering that both came to Ireland and became a part of its own traditions.

Thanks for replying Searles I agree that we have to know the christian before we can find the pagan and I think that steriotypical hatred of christianity cripples people and for the IE cultures vast influence I have to say that like the concept of cultural continuity that it represents. The concept is a force for tradition in the face of an undermining modernism but Im disturbed that people rely on a really fairly unlikely idea of IE culture when the native Irish trads are there with visible alternatives.

Theres the alternate 6 fold cosmology 'sun and moon, water and air, day and night, sea and land' from the life of Patrick that clearly exists in the folktrad today even if it is unpalatably messy for those who dont see them in everyday life.

People here swear on the sun and moon and who doesnt know the man in the moon ;). The fairy wind runs through the fields and the morning blast scourges us after the liminal night. The holy waters are everywhere and work as portals, cures and prevent the fairies from following you, there are festivals, charms and curses centred around the sea that surrounds us feeds us but claimed so many lives in the recent past and not forgetting the many folk trads about land that the fairies share with us.

I am deeply suspicious of the idea of Indo European culture and its deepend by me learning the history of neopaganism. The universal bond and groups contemporary to them in the 20th century who became famously celtic began by claiming an Indian (as in from India) background and only then moved on to a clearly celtic identity. IE culture seems to be a contemporary expression of the original ideas from the universal Bond et al justifying old beliefs that fell out of favour with the rise of Archaeology by the use of new untested sciences.

I have to question and look for an answer I can accept, and books on Irish anthropology, sociology and history dont have anything to say about neopaganism and its religious beliefs. Only outside the culture is it possible to find the answers as to why neopaganism does what it does [I that speaks to the fact that the more I study of my native trad and the more of my Irish identity i understand the more alienated I feel from neopaganism,. I dont mean that as a mark of honour like Im more ancient or better its just a regrettable fact].
Im sorry if I come across as a stubborn and persistantly agressive swine but I feel curiosity or the thirst for knowlege or whatever you want to call it under any terms burns in me intensely. It drives me passionately and the end results have served me greatly. So many times Ive been frustrated by what you see in the thread here already but the things Ive found after all the frustration are more precious then gold to me. Im trying to say that I really appreciate your replies, even if I am an obnoxious fecker and some people believe I dont deserve a reply.

----------------------------
Your point about the triple spiral is great Searles I think that deserves a separate thread. I mean until the 1970s and the change in carbon dating people did attribute druidry to neolithic sites, because they had correctly dated Celtic cultures beginnings but incorrectly dated the neolithic by 1000 years. Its also interesting to see the changing meaning of the symbols from the neolithic to early Ireland. Or atleast the change in cultures that may have brought a change in belief.

I think it deserves its own thread even if the discussion goes dead it would still challenge peoples understanding of a popular symbol.

[Faol-chù]

even if I am an obnoxious fecker and some people believe I dont deserve a reply.

No, Nuadu...It's not that you don't "deserve" a reply.

It's just that I already know where you stand....

You're not going to change my ideas. I'm not going to change yours. My time is limited, and I'm not one to beat the proverbial dead horse.

FWIW....I don't see MY study of this stuff, my interest, nor my personal belief system as "neopaganism"...for one thing, I reject the word "pagan", as it is Roman in nature, and refers really to something that is NOT what this is, unless you subscribe to Roman ideas...
Also, I don't think it necessarily has to EXCLUDE Christianity...at least a native version of it.

Cultures adopt things on their own terms, and I see no reason to completely second-guess that decision. Sometimes things DO happen from the ground-up, and even the BEST cultures come to a place where they are questioning whether or not there is something better.

Be well, Nuadu.

[Nuadu]

Foal Chu I dont want to change your mind,

You can believe Im a leprechaun using a really small laptop sitting on a pot of gold under a rainbow if it suits you because your beliefs are your own right. Im no evangelist, consider the fact that Im Irish and consider the history of the culture I love so well... can I despise religious intolerance after its used to excuse horrors in my culture and still be an evangelist? Recon and recon practices are from a different culture please dont lump me in with them.

All I care about is that you know what you believe, or seem to me like you do anyway and probably know the origin and history of your beliefs. I would consider those things and all counter arguments to the theory strongly before adopting the three realms as a belief. So I dont imagine me pointing out the flaws should be a world threatening problem for you or anyone else experianced.

The three realms is a concept widely understood in neopaganism to be an Irish Tradition but its not an Irish tradition that I can see in the folk culture, the family traditions that consider themselves pagan or the folk traditions that dont. That is wierd and the major flaw in the theory IMO.

Now Im willing to accept that people outside Ireland might not know or care about that but when IE culture is not the study of Irish Traditions and the three realms Irish when it has flaws in an Irish context I would think those flaws would be considered widely before they were adopted as a belief and answers to the type of questions Im asking would be well known because everyone has asked the questions themselves.

[Seren_]

The three realms is a concept widely understood in neopaganism to be an Irish Tradition but its not an Irish tradition that I can see in the folk culture, the family traditions that consider themselves pagan or the folk traditions that dont. That is wierd and the major flaw in the theory IMO.

Not an Irish tradition?

The Táin:


“Is it the sky that breaks or the sea that ebbs or the earth that quakes or is this the distress of my son fighting against odds on the Foray of Cuailnge?” (asks Sualtaim in beseeching Conchobar to gather his men to help Cú Chulainn in his fight against Connacht)

“(I swear by) the sea before them, the sky above them, the earth beneath them that I shall restore every cow to its byre and every woman and every boy to their own homes after victory in battle.” (Replies Conchobar, using the same formula back at Sualtaim)

“I beseech the rivers to help me, I implore the sky and the earth and [the river] Cronn in particular,” (says Cú Chulainn the formula isn't exact but it's clearly meant to echo it)
From The Story of the Finding of Cashel:


Bennacht nime, nél-bennacht,
Bennacht tíre, torad-bennacht,
Bennacht mara, íasc-bennacht.

The blessing of heaven, cloud-blessing,
The blessing of earth, fruit-blessing,
The blessing of sea, fish-blessing.From the Saltair na Rann:


“Dia . . .is e do-roine nem 7 talam 7 muir. `God, it is He who made heaven and earth and the sea.' ”From the poetry of Blathmac:


“muir mas, nem nglas, talam ce” - “the beautiful sea, the blue heaven, the present earth.”From Carmun, the Metrical Dindshenchas:


65] Every pledge was given that is not transgressed with safety,
the sea with its beasts, heaven, earth with its bright array,
that the strong chiefs should not come southward
so long as the sea should be round Erin...



Heaven, earth, sun, moon, and sea,
110] fruits of earth and sea-stuff,
mouths, ears, eyes, possessions,
feet, hands, warriors' tongues,
Horses, swords, chariots fair,
spears, shields, and faces of men,
115] dew, mast, sheen on leaf,
day and night, ebb and flow: —
The hosts of Banba, free from enduring sorrow,
gave all these completely as pledges
that it should not lie under gloom of disputes
120] to interrupt it, every third year...

St Patrick's Lorica:


Light of sun, radiance of moon,
I arise today through the strength of heaven:
Splendour of fire,
Speed of lightning,
Swiftness of wind,
Depth of sea,
Stability of earth,
Firmness of rock.A Good Wish, from Carmina Gadelica (song 282 - see also 286 and 288, which are clearly related to each other):


“…Power of sea be thine,
Power of land be thine,
Power of heaven.

Goodness of sea be thine,
Goodness of land be thine,
Goodness of heaven…”Charm for chest seizure, song 448:


"Power of moon have I over thee,
Power of sun have I over thee,
Power of rain have I over thee,
Power of dew have I over thee,
Power of sea have I over thee,
Power of land have I over thee,
Power of stars have I over thee,
Power of planets have I over thee,
Power of planets have I over thee,
Power of universe have I over thee,
Power of skies have I over thee,
Power of saints have I over thee,
Power of heaven have I over thee..."

Clearly it can be found in both Irish and Scottish sources (which I include because the songs and the traditions associated with the craft of poetry share a distinct heritage with those of Ireland), though they're generally older than the sources that you seem to be looking at (some of them aren't that old, relatively speaking, but in most cases they do show linguistic evidence for being based on much older sources). There are surely a whole host of reasons for the disparity, not least the amount of time that's passed between then and now.

It's notable that where land, sea and sky is named along with other things like sun, moon, rock, stars and so on, they all fit neatly into the three realms. Whether it's an oath or charm, or prayer of protection (a lorica, in particular - a 'breastplate', where the spirit of God or Jesus is invoked to imbue the person - above, below, behind, each side and so on), the more thorough it is the more effective and binding it's considered to be.

Oath-taking was serious business and the oldest forms of oaths (based on linguistic analysis) shows that it was things like the three realms and the elements, as well as the gods, that were sworn on to make the oath binding. It was only later that strictly Christian forms became the norm. This further suggests an existing native, pre-Christian concept that was only later superceded by the Christian duality. For a time, though, they seem to have existed side by side. Fergus Kelly goes into this (albeit too briefly, IMO) in his book Early Irish Law.

MacMathuna, in the pdf I linked to, clearly states that the meaning of nem as 'heaven' was a later evolution of the word, and could just as easily mean 'sky'. I'm not a scholar of Old Irish, though, so I'll have to take his word for it.

[Nuadu]

Thanks for replying Seren,

If I existed 800 years ago I might find that three realms existed in the culture, or it might be a literary invention insinuating christianity into a native context. Its not a native belief today tho is it? For all its supposed survival through 1000s of years of social upheaval and cultural change concepts like three realms have vanished into thin air outside christianity today if they ever existed outside it at all. Are we just that innovative and unprecedented that since the englightenment we have undone the fabric of our lives and managed to leave no trace of that process or the prior culture behind us?

IE is a popular theory among proper linguists but its no different then any other field of study, noone will tell you a theory is wrong. Its just a theory... but its being taken as a religious belief, something very different to a theory. Fair enough you might find a word pronounced or spelled similarly in different languages and they may vaguely mean the same thing and from that you might consider that at some point pre-history those cultures might have had a common linguistic ancestor or have a common linguistic influence.

The problem I see with that is the far more obvious and tangable cultural cross polination in European cultures would explain that too. Cultures dont exist in isolation though do they, in the paleolithic our stone axe heads were in france, in the neolithic there was huge cultural cross polination between us and Spain, in the Bronze age we had things from North Africa and styles from Egypt... thats just Ireland isolated on the fringes of europe. Look at our modern languages, english is a good language to sell pigs in but look at the traditional languages, they like Irish are influenced by norse, latin, greek, french and German and that wasnt because we were selling our wares in a broadly understood language.

IMO some neopagan read it in a book and liked the idea and unfortunately as is consistantly the case in neopaganism when he regurgitated it to people they didnt question its origins. The origin of beliefs in neopaganism were explained away by the romance of interacting with spiritual swami's in the past. IMO this whole reliance on 'academic' books as supporting evidence for religious belief is the same swami rubbish just in a modern context. In neopaganism we are seeing people justifying beliefs by basing it in a theory but they have no ability to question the theory or even enough of a grounding in the subject to place theories in context. They are taking theory as belief on faith because some Johnny Religious Leader type told people it was true at some time in the past and its become an accepted truth now.

I suppose I should look at your quotes, My opinion is youre looking at Irelands christian literary tradition and taking it as the secular and worse as containing something significantly pagan. For something to be pagan it has to have an OI link your quotes are either explicitly christian or from the middle ages written in middle Irish. It doesnt bother an Irish Christian Professor to have the christian and the native be identical, it only reinforces the status quo of church and state for him.

Look at it with a pagan eye, the tain is compiled in the 11th century a time of an exclusively christian Ireland and it contains no OI poetry. Caishel is explicitly christian, it isnt a pre christian site its the seat of Bishop kings in munster and while its in the genealogies and the place name lore its there because of its christian status as the seat of the munster bishop kings. Blathmac is a monk and a Sailtar...

...Do you really think is plausable that an OI pagan cosmology exists a christian Psaltair describing the christian creation story... written in Middle Irish in the middle ages? Saint Patricks lorica is the funniest of all who's next up to give a pagan cosmology Christ himself? Thats the only higher christian authority in irish christian literature then Patrick.

There are plenty of native beliefs in existance comparable to a native cosmology. If youre supposed to be looking at Irish prechristian trads the three realms cant be justified by quoting christian lit or by saying its not just Irish its indo european. You have to be able to justify it within the Irish trads. That people grasp at straws in christian and improbable ancient and long vanished cultures only emphasises that the idea cant be proven to exist in the culture.

[Seren_]

Thanks for replying Seren,

If I existed 800 years ago I might find that three realms existed in the culture, or it might be a literary invention insinuating christianity into a native context. Its not a native belief today tho is it? For all its supposed survival through 1000s of years of social upheaval and cultural change concepts like three realms have vanished into thin air outside christianity today if they ever existed outside it at all. Are we just that innovative and unprecedented that since the englightenment we have undone the fabric of our lives and managed to leave no trace of that process or the prior culture behind us?

I'm not sure change, or the reasons why things change, can be reduced to such a simplistic level.


I suppose I should look at your quotes,

I suppose you should! It seems a bit pointless to argue against them as evidence if you haven't... :weirdsmil ;)


My opinion is youre looking at Irelands christian literary tradition and taking it as the secular and worse as containing something significantly pagan. For something to be pagan it has to have an OI link your quotes are either explicitly christian or from the middle ages written in middle Irish. It doesnt bother an Irish Christian Professor to have the christian and the native be identical, it only reinforces the status quo of church and state for him.

Not really. I'm looking at the available evidence, which is inevitably going to be Christian in context, because there aren't any pre-Christian sources to look at. It's there in myth, it's there in literature, it's there in religious texts. As I've already pointed out, it's found in places in favour of the more usual Christian duality of heaven/earth, which suggests it was a native, and deeply ingrained, worldview that was retained after Christianity. To begin with the Church in Ireland didn't have much of a problem with this sort of thing.

And I'm not just arguing based on its presence in literature - any literature - alone. I've pointed to the practice of oath-taking as well. All of this is backed up by academic work on the subject. I'm not arguing because I read it in a Llewellyn book ;) But we've discussed all this before, haven't we?


Look at it with a pagan eye, the tain is compiled in the 11th century a time of an exclusively christian Ireland and it contains no OI poetry.

Although there are at least three poems that pre-date the Táin that clearly shows the idea of the story was around before the 11th century. The one I'm familiar with dates to around the seventh century, although linguistically it contains elements that date as far back as the fifth. The other two date to the eighth century, I think.


...Do you really think is plausable that an OI pagan cosmology exists a christian Psaltair describing the christian creation story... written in Middle Irish in the middle ages? Saint Patricks lorica is the funniest of all who's next up to give a pagan cosmology Christ himself? Thats the only higher christian authority in irish christian literature then Patrick.

Yes. Although that's not to say that its presence within the literature is evidence of overtly pagan belief being still in existence at that time. Rather I'd suggest that it was used as a motif by this time, perhaps a legacy of the teaching and skills of the filid who had a huge body of knowledge to draw from. Much like the concept of the sovereignty goddess became reduced to a motif (by and large) to justify and validate Niall's kingship in The Adventures of Eochaid Mugmedon. (http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/eochaid.html) That dates to Christian times too (ninth century), but it sure as hell doesn't have much to do with Christianity, does it (by which I mean, why does he claim his sovereignty based on a native, rather than Christian, concept? Surely his sovereignty should be ordained by God)?


You have to be able to justify it within the Irish trads.

Ahhh. This is the crux of it, isn't it?

You may see there's a lack of evidence in modern Irish tradition but how do you explain its presence in modern Scottish tradition? The songs of the Carmina Gadelica shows clear evidence of the concept, and these were recorded in the late nineteenth century. As I've said before these songs and charms share a clear heritage with those of Ireland, and show a remarkable amount of similarities with Old Irish examples.

[Nuadu]

I'm not sure change, or the reasons why things change, can be reduced to such a simplistic level.

How do you believe change and the reasons for change should be defined?


All of this is backed up by academic work on the subject. I'm not arguing because I read it in a Llewellyn book
Look this isnt meant as an attacak on you Seren, its just a flaw I see in your thinking and it does work to further the discussion.

You and others can quote academic work but its not your academic work is it? With all academic theory there are a myriad of alternate and sometimes opposing theories and without a celtic studies degree or something that would give you a similar insight how are you placing that academic work in sufficient context to support something as hard set as a religious belief?

Factoids taken from a book by author employed by a college is no more a reliable source on religion then insights from macgregor mathers gathered from the inner circle of spiritual beings. Just having a library card doesnt make you the librarian, if you lack the ability to question your source then youre no better off then an initiate in any religion.


Although there are at least three poems that pre-date the Táin that clearly shows the idea of the story was around before the 11th century. The one I'm familiar with dates to around the seventh century, although linguistically it contains elements that date as far back as the fifth. The other two date to the eighth century, I think.

I dont think you could say a 7th century copy of the Tain exists since Cu Chulainn is a later invention and he is the main charactor. Fair enough the ulster cycle exists but thats not the same thing as the Tain. The tain is a compilation from the medieval just like the book of invasions, its not a prechristian epic like the Illiad.


I'd suggest that it was used as a motif by this time, perhaps a legacy of the teaching and skills of the filid who had a huge body of knowledge to draw from. Much like the concept of the sovereignty goddess became reduced to a motif (by and large) to justify and validate Niall's kingship in The Adventures of Eochaid Mugmedon. That dates to Christian times too (ninth century), but it sure as hell doesn't have much to do with Christianity,does it (by which I mean, why does he claim his sovereignty based on a native, rather than Christian, concept? Surely his sovereignty should be ordained by God)?

Ok in your opinion the three realms is a piece of lore precedented in earlier trad and regurgitated in the medieval when OI paganism had gone as an influential force. I would see two problems with that, One what is the purpose of reusing that motif and two why is that motif unchanged when all other motifs have evolved with the culture.

What is the purpose of that motif?
Look at your example of the sovereignty queen 'motif' it is a deliberate use of an anachronism to place the O'Neill dynasty further back in history. They are famous for their propaganda, we know they evolved from the Eoghannacht but noone knows when because they fabricated a history for themselves. A literary divice like the sovereignty queen motif or your three realm motif isnt used without a purpose. Unless you believe that the text of the tain was prechristian then for the motif to be included it must have a purpose contemporary to the day.

Why is the three realms idea unchanged?
Being static and existing in the same form in the 10th century as it supposedly had been in prehistory sets the three realms apart from your example of the sovereignty queen motif. The sovereignty queen concept had evolved when the adventure of the sons of Eochaid Mugmedon was written because Nialls otherworld queen isnt represented like the OI goddess she is a Cultic Cailleach from the later medieval. That folklore existed in Irish society and being a part of our culture it changed as Irish society changed.

Why doesnt the three realms follow suit?
Was it prechristian but it fell out of use in the culture for some reason but cos it was present in an ancient manuscript thats now lost to us but known to the christian scribe? Was it a part of religious Dogma present at the time the Cattle raid of cooley was composed? or Was it an unrelated literary device?


One.
We cant prove or disprove the idea that its part of a lost recorded tradition, we are discussing the concept in terms of religious belief and belief rules in those circumstances. In academic discussion, the terms used here to support the religious belief, youd need to cite precedent for early concepts from lost manuscripts being retained in later recencions... I cant think of a single example. That it also doesnt exist in folklore today puts a big questionmark over the origins for me.

Two.
If it was a dogma at the time the tain was written there is a good candidate for its origins. Christianity brought the written trad and cos of the static nature of a material record a written trad facilitates Dogma. Our native trads were and still are mnemonic so our concepts arent static, they change with the people and that change is visible in atleast 3 distinct phases in Irish History.

Three.
You brought up the three realms being used in Oaths. As a literary device the three realms replaces a specifically pagan method of taking an oath set in brehon law and visible in myth 'I swear by the gods my people swear by'. Oaths like all other legal matters are a matter of precedent in Brehon law so we know oaths were witnessed by pagan gods but the BL was complimented by Cannon Law. Maybe the three realms doesnt change because it is a literary divice invented to christianise that trad.

Realisticially by the time the tain was written the Nemed were Christian people like Cormac mac Cuilleann the Bishop King of Munster werent swearing by Pagan deities. Look at the Nemed in the Tain King Conchobar was born at the time of Christ and he died when he went berzerk on hearing of christs death. Would that zealous king really swear by the gods his people swear by or would he be more likely to swear an oath to a concept accetable to christian ideology like the three realms?


Ahhh. This is the crux of it, isn't it?
Do you find it strange that an Irish person should think that Irish history should be given an Irish context?

Thats really what those essays youre quoting are about and they arent stand alone pieces and they arent intended to support any religion at all. They are history viewed through the lense of academic discipline and are only supposed to be considered in the context of Irish history. For all that I understand that this is a religious discussion and 'Celtic' in this context refers to the major influence on the religions in question. A fad in the 80s and 90s in North America that doesnt have anything to do with real Irish Culture and our influences on the term like by Erskine Childers propaganda during our war of independance... I know its nothing to do with me and mine really. I would think that context is necessary to understand a book or essay though.



You may see there's a lack of evidence in modern Irish tradition but how do you explain its presence in modern Scottish tradition?

You mean how do I explain three realms existing in the Highlands in the secular trad? Or do you mean what do I think of the Carmina Gadelica?

Excusing the christian influence and assuming its a folk trad (Which I dont believe) I would say the Norse Gaels could have something to do with the Highlands. Standing in Dublin in a trench coat on a windy day a big gust of wind wont land me in Sweden like it could there and the vikings didnt have the impact here that they did in Scotland. Since there is a similar concept in Scandinavian heathenism and since the highlands have been more scannie then gael for the last millenia that would be my source for it in folklore rather then an older and long broken link to the Dalriada.

To the second Id say that Alexander Carmichael is no different to James MacPherson. One of the things that used to puzzle the pants off me was why CR with its seeming focus on Academic 'correctness' would take on these old 'folklore' books that are not held to any standard at all. They are written by a social aristocracy not a meritocracy whos members had no qualms on editing and mistranslating even adding to and completely inventing sources if it suited there needs. Alexander Carmicheal did all those things in the Carmina Gadelica.

It isnt beyond the realms of possibility that AC did what MacPherson did with the Oissianic lays and being aware of a well documented Irish literary tradition copied from that to create his own scottish folk trad. Im not saying AC did it for everything but the possiblity exists in the lines that he insterted into the prayers that he used the Irish christian elements and thats what youre seeing now and attributing a native belief to it.

Honest to god Seren I dont know why you think the Scottish and Irish people are the same or feel the need to relate to Irish culture for Scotland to stand on its own feet. Is it part of the modern folklore... maybe cos we got our independance through a link to us Scotland should have more independance? Or is it just braveheart...?



Mad Irish fellah: 'Steven is my name and Im the most wanted man on my Island'
Wallace: Good man yourself Steven have you met the Bruce here, he'll be invading your country with a scortched earth policy after this film ends
Mad Irish Fellah: ...in order to find his equal an Irishman is force to talk to god!... wait WTF!?
*Irish lad runs off to join the anglo normans in Ireland related to Longshanks who would unite with Irish people to drive out the Bruce and the Scottish Invasion*

I mean No academic standards were applied at all to the way the sources were collected or presented by the likes of Wilde or Carmichael. The Carmina's only value would be as a sociological record of scotlands upper classes searching for a national identity to distinguish themselves in the british superstate. Which is exactly what Lady Wilde and her contemporaries were doing in Ireland and exactly what was going on in Wales at the time too. I would be surprised if you could find a reference to the three realms in Scotlands folk trads in the last 50 years.

[Seren_]

How do you believe change and the reasons for change should be defined?

From as many different angles as possible - historical, sociological, political...There are so many different factors at play I was simply trying to make the point that reducing it to such a simplistic level can't give a satisfactory view of what was going on. Change is as subtle as it is obvious, and so are the reasons for it.


Look this isnt meant as an attacak on you Seren, its just a flaw I see in your thinking and it does work to further the discussion.

I don't see your posts as an attack at all. There's room for all kinds of opinions and I'm not the sort to get offended just because someone disagrees with me.

As I said from the start that I have no illusions that I'm going to change your mind on this (or pretty much anything else). I simply wanted to provide a different perspective to the points you've made so that others who find this thread can get a more balanced view and make their own minds up.


You and others can quote academic work but its not your academic work is it? With all academic theory there are a myriad of alternate and sometimes opposing theories and without a celtic studies degree or something that would give you a similar insight how are you placing that academic work in sufficient context to support something as hard set as a religious belief?

No, it's not my academic work. But I do have an MA in Archaeology and Celtic Civilisation so I have some training that allows me to put my research into sufficient context (IMHO, anyway). I don't deny that I'm arguing from a bias here, but seeing as we're discussing pre-Christian cosmology on a pagan forum, I think that bias is obvious and understandable. Also, as I said, I'm trying to provide a counterpoint to the discussion - a viewpoint that's as accepting as yours is rebutting the idea - in order to provide some balance.

I'm well aware of the limitations of many of the sources I use - especially the Carmina Gadelica. However, they shouldn't be ignored just because they have limitations, but they should be used sensibly. I've given not just one example from that source, but several, and from different informants from different parts of the Highlands and Islands that Carmichael used over time. This suggests to me that the occurrence of the concept in the songs that were collected is genuine.


I dont think you could say a 7th century copy of the Tain exists since Cu Chulainn is a later invention and he is the main charactor. Fair enough the ulster cycle exists but thats not the same thing as the Tain. The tain is a compilation from the medieval just like the book of invasions, its not a prechristian epic like the Illiad.

That's not what I said. I said elements of the story predate the Táin, not certain tales from the Táin or the Táin itself. The poem I was referring to (primarily) involves Medb and Fergus in a cattle raid that shows clear elements of what happens in the Táin, but at no point is Cú Chulainn mentioned. Other than that it's pretty much a good portion of the overall plot and could even be taken to suggest that Cú Chulainn is a later addition to the whole thing. Those who see the Táin as a blatant effort to make an 'Irish Iliad' would like to think so, anyway.


Ok in your opinion the three realms is a piece of lore precedented in earlier trad and regurgitated in the medieval when OI paganism had gone as an influential force. I would see two problems with that, One what is the purpose of reusing that motif and two why is that motif unchanged when all other motifs have evolved with the culture.

I've already suggested that the largely conservative teachings of the filid had a big hand in its longevity, for one.


Why is the three realms idea unchanged?
Being static and existing in the same form in the 10th century as it supposedly had been in prehistory sets the three realms apart from your example of the sovereignty queen motif. The sovereignty queen concept had evolved when the adventure of the sons of Eochaid Mugmedon was written because Nialls otherworld queen isnt represented like the OI goddess she is a Cultic Cailleach from the later medieval. That folklore existed in Irish society and being a part of our culture it changed as Irish society changed.

The earliest example I gave was eighth century. It's only a few centuries, I know, but this puts it back to some of the earliest surviving literature at the least. In this sense, its presence is much more significant.

I think the difference between the concept of a sovereignty goddess and the concept of the three realms is that the goddess has a character. She is a protaganist, an active part of the story. She will change through time according to a variety of influences - political, social, religious (which Rosalind Clark goes into from a literary perspective in The Great Queens, well worth a read)...

The concept of land, sea and sky...just is. The Táin invokes it to represent balance. Cú Chulainn's father uses the three realms to show they are in disarray to imply that the king is acting without good judgement (if this were the case, mythologically, his ill actions would be reflected in the world around him - through war, natural disasters, famine and so on). The king counters that land, sea and sky are as they should be, thanks, so no, he's not acting wrongly. Clearly, though, the implication is that they are intrinsically connected to the Irish gods. So in that sense, the state of the land (and in a broader context, the three realms in general) can be seen as symptommatic of the relationship between the king, his people, and the gods.

In an overtly Christian context, like their use in the Genesis story in Psaltair na Rann, or in Saint Patrick's Breastplate, then they are more passive. They are a part of, an expression of, God's creation but nothing much more. So in that sense, the concept has certainly changed, but it's not as obvious as the example of the sovereignty goddess because the three realms aren't characterised in the same kind of way (although the sovereignty also evolves from a very active character, a very active part of a story in early medieval literature, to a more passive concept in more recent literature).



Honest to god Seren I dont know why you think the Scottish and Irish people are the same or feel the need to relate to Irish culture for Scotland to stand on its own feet. Is it part of the modern folklore... maybe cos we got our independance through a link to us Scotland should have more independance? Or is it just braveheart...?
Oh now really!

I've never said they're the same. However, it shouldn't be ignored that at one point, the west coast of Scotland was an Irish colony. Historically, this colony was integral to the evolution of Scotland as a whole, spurring on political, social, religious and linguistic changes in the area and eventually for the Scottish nation as a whole, although of course this is not to say it was the only cultural influence. In addition to these ties is a long history of Scottish poets and bards studying in Ireland and taking their craft back to the Gàidhealtachd in Scotland. To ignore the fact that there is a common heritage in terms of the sources I'm using is seriously shortsighted.

[odubhain]

Try these links to sources and papers on the Three Realms and Irish Cosmology:

http://www.celtic-cosmology.celtologica.com/abstracts.html

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/celtica/c23/c23-174.pdf

I've always personally seen the three great tumuli of the Boyne Valley as representing the Three Realms in analogs of the Sun, the Moon and the Underworld. One is a fire/air realms. The second is a watery realm and the third is a realm of darkness. Each is a land yet a land of qualities associated with Sun, Moon and Earth. The Sea is usually seen as a transitory place until one comes to islands within it. The tumuli themselves are seen as doorways to the Otherworld while the Sky is a realm that contains :great plains."

The discussion of the three realms is one that should have equal parts of literature, analysis and cultural practice applied to it in a deep, a wide and an enduring study (a great PhD topic IMO).

Searles O'Dubhain

[Nuadu]

I've always personally seen the three great tumuli of the Boyne Valley as representing the Three Realms in analogs of the Sun, the Moon and the Underworld. One is a fire/air realms. The second is a watery realm and the third is a realm of darkness. Each is a land yet a land of qualities associated with Sun, Moon and Earth. The Sea is usually seen as a transitory place until one comes to islands within it. The tumuli themselves are seen as doorways to the Otherworld while the Sky is a realm that contains :great plains."

Ah I can see where youre coming from Searles Newgrange is famous for its solar alignment and associations with deities people consider solar related like Lugh, Knowth for its the possible lunar callendar in its passage tomb art and like all the sites with solar alignments it also has a lunar alignment, and finally dowth being a place of darkness in the metrical dindshenchas... it does look dour and dank now anyway so its hard to argue against the dindshenchas.

Its an interesting way of viewing them. Id never considered them separate from each other. Really Ive never considered them as anything but the religious centre of a influential tribe but I suppose its one of those things that argues to an IE religion, in that viewed as a whole they could be evidence for a priesthood of some kind. Just looking at the ones in Leinster today Newgrange, Dowth and Knowth are aligned to the solstice and towards the politcal centre of Tara, Fourknocks and its two similarly sized unexcavated mounds are aligned to the helical rising of the constellation of Cassiopeia (not sure what big site they face...) and Loughcrew and its sister mounds are aligned to the equinox and towards the political centre of Navan Fort in Armagh. Each political group seems to associate itself with a different astrological alignment which it does imply that each group was deliberately distinguishing itself from the others, which implies a shared knowledge thats unlikely to have been universal. There could have been an island wide elite similar to the bards, brehons etc... that existed a few thousand years later.

I wouldnt leap onto that extending into the iron age or the historical period though.


The discussion of the three realms is one that should have equal parts of literature, analysis and cultural practice applied to it in a deep, a wide and an enduring study (a great PhD topic IMO).
Yeah its unusual enough that there are probably a good few people doing their phd on it right now.

I came across the idea of the three realms in Celtic Paganism in Isaac Bonewits and the ADF do you know if it predates the group or if IB was influenced by anyone else? [Edit: Anyone else in neopaganism, Ive read his list of academic authors]

Actually I hadnt thought that Isaac Bonewits was the source for this stuff, hes one of the few people that uses the native words instead of the academic. For example he calls our language Irish not gaelic, if I had the worlds biggest hammer I couldnt beat the significance of that simple courtesy into people. I suppose though he can only come from the way he was raised and come with the influence of (post) modernism and capitalism and I can only respect his trads as I respect my own given his attitude to tradition.

[Eamon O'Rourke]

I think the concept of the earth sea and sky triplicity (mentioned only rarely in Irish literature) is a bit overrated as being symbolic of anything other than what is stated. It is a bit of a stretch to equate it with the three planes of existence that form a major part of Indo-European theology - equivalent to Valhalla, Midgard and Nifhelm in Norse mythology, for example. I believe that our Celtic pagan ancestors most likely held a similar view which was composed of the mortal world in which we humans live our lives, then there was the Hades-like underworld of Tech Duinn which was inhabited by the spirits of the departed, and thirdly there was the realm of the Siabhra, a magical, enchanted plane of existence, parallel to our own mortal world, but separated from it by a mystical veil that sometimes opened between the two, on rare occassions when the gods would visit among us, or allow chosen mortals to visit among them. Often such otherworlds are described as being on a island under the sea (Tir fo Thonn) or under the hollow hills (Sidhe), but I don't think the pagan Irish ever considered an otherworld located in the sky or the heavens, so where would the land, sea and sky triplicity fit into a cosmology of the world, the underworld and the otherworld?

[Nuadu]

Thats a good point, people label deities sun deities and assume a whole realm exists in the sky but it doesnt seem to be a clearly stated realm in the myths.

Arguing on the forum here I was thinking though...
Swans flying through the sky, the ravens over a battle field, the Irish solomon Conaire Mor was decended from shapeshifting bird deities. Birds, if not the sky itself do have a relationship with the otherworld. Though the same can be said of every animal I think swans are a strong link to otherworld journeys and the sky being a portal to the otherworld. They appear in the sickbed of cu chulainn and the wasting sickness of oengus as deities on their way to the sidhe....

But then if you start out by assuming youre right and only then looking for evidence of your assumption youre more or less going to see what you want to see.

[Eamon O'Rourke]

Thats a good point, people label deities sun deities and assume a whole realm exists in the sky but it doesnt seem to be a clearly stated realm in the myths.

Arguing on the forum here I was thinking though...
Swans flying through the sky, the ravens over a battle field, the Irish solomon Conaire Mor was decended from shapeshifting bird deities. Birds, if not the sky itself do have a relationship with the otherworld. Though the same can be said of every animal I think swans are a strong link to otherworld journeys and the sky being a portal to the otherworld. They appear in the sickbed of cu chulainn and the wasting sickness of oengus as deities on their way to the sidhe....

But then if you start out by assuming youre right and only then looking for evidence of your assumption youre more or less going to see what you want to see.

You have a good point here regarding birds and the otherworld, and I also see them as a recurring theme in Celtic mythology (most often as representaions of goddesses). In the story of Donn mac Midir the hose of Midir is guarded by the three cranes of inhospitality who disuade visitors from approaching (somewhat like the three-headed dog Cerebus who guards the entrance to Hades). In Gallic archaelogy the theme of the Bull with Three Cranes (Tarous Trigaranus) is found in examples from Notre Dame and Rheimes. The Morrigan is associated with a triplicity of goddesses Nemain, Macha and Badb, who appear as carrion crows or ravens, symbolic of death and the transformation it brings (perhaps like the Norse Valkyries who search among the dead on battlefields to carry the souls of heroes to Valhalla). The children of Lir are transformed into swans, while Manannan's wife is transformed into a crane. The Welsh goddess Bloudewedd who begins her life as a virginal maiden made of flowers and blossoms is punished for betraying her husband Lugh by being transformed into an Owl - a nocturnal bird hated by other birds, and one that is associated with wisdom and darkness and the supernatural.

Caesar in commenting on the Britons says that they do not eat chickens, geese or hares, perhaps as part of a religious prohibition. Other classical writers mention that the Druids taught that the souls of men are transmigrated into birds after death, so there does seem to be a great deal of evidence that our ancestors regarded birds as intermediaries between the mortal and the immortal realms.