Italian/German/Irish tradition info needed

[Cambria]

As I mentioned in my Introduction post I have recently started studying Stregheria (The Old Religion of Italy/ Italian Witchcraft). The reason for this is that I am half Italian. My other half is German. I have been told stories of my grandfather and great grandfather having little "tricks" as my mother would call them to get rid of stomach aches, colds, warts, etc. and many of which could only be done on a certain day when the moon was in a certain phase. Which leads me to believe that on at least one side of my family there were some natural witches. As well I was given a necklace as a baby with a small cimaruta (talisman to ward off evil) from my italian side of the family.

So I am wondering if anyone here is well versed in specific traditions from either Italy or German, especially old world ways. I am also very interested in Irish/ Celtic trad info as my husband is Irish.

For specifics, I'm looking for holidays: the practices, history and meanings. But any and all information is very appreciated, thanks!

[Xentor]

I'd suggest you check out Raven Grimmassi's cornerr on MW:
http://mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=66

[Cambria]

Thank you Xentor, very interesting information indeed! Good recommendation :thumbsup:

[Nuadu]

You wont find a lot on irish paganism coming from Ireland, we arent big contributors to paganism for whatever reason. I can recommend Irish WitchCraft from an Irish Witch its by a person from Ireland.
http://books.google.ie/books?id=WL38zw8GQxkC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=irish+family+witchcraft&source=bl&ots=_DYqIaSl_t&sig=O70EtRlHNsdrO6_3Lyh0qvi4zQo&hl=en&ei=2uquSpSJFuGb4ga3r-jyBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5

A yahoo group for native Irish family witchcraft
[/URL][URL]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishtraditionalwitchcraft/ (http://www.librarything.com/work/3011694)

Some essays from Irish Pagans on the native trad paganism
http://homepage.eircom.net/~liossa/home/contents.htm

Info on the Native Irish trad of Imrammic Meditation. Bit of a strange one but if you follow the trail there are sites where its explained properly
http://www.geocities.com/rvnsprwldr/intro.htm

[Toki Wartooth]

We have an Asatru, Heathenry, etc. forum here in the Paths section...it's under Recons. You can find resources there for the Germanic area you're interested in.

There is also the Druid, Celtic, etc. forum.

[BryonMorrigan]

As I mentioned in my Introduction post I have recently started studying Stregheria (The Old Religion of Italy/ Italian Witchcraft).


"Old Religion of Italy" indeed!

Jupiter Optimus Maximus doubts your commitment to Sparkle Motion, my dear! (*)

Good Day, Sir!


_____________________________________________________________

(*) Yep, that's right. I made reference to the Religio Romana AND made a Donnie Darko reference in the same sentence, and chances are, nobody got the joke. I'm like the "Dennis Miller" of this forum...

[Cambria]

Thank you all for the wonderful resources, I will have some great weekend reading it seems :)

*smiles politely at Bryon...* Um, hehe...ya. :weirdsmil

[Toki Wartooth]

"Old Religion of Italy" indeed!

Jupiter Optimus Maximus doubts your commitment to Sparkle Motion, my dear! (*)

Good Day, Sir!


_____________________________________________________________

(*) Yep, that's right. I made reference to the Religio Romana AND made a Donnie Darko reference in the same sentence, and chances are, nobody got the joke. I'm like the "Dennis Miller" of this forum...

:lol: I got it, I got it! Good one. :thumbsup:


Cambria, he's joking because a very much ancient (not just "old") Italian religion would be Religio Romana, or the Roman religion. You know, the one with gods like Jupiter, Juno, Venus, Mars, Mercury, Janus, Vesta, etc. It is most likely far older than Stregheria is.

[Son of Goddess]

I <3 the Religio Romana. If you have any questions just pm me. :thumbsup:

[Cambria]

I <3 the Religio Romana. If you have any questions just pm me. :thumbsup:

Wow, just as i finished reading Toki's post i thought WoooO! Now that sounds like something I'd like to learn about. i'm all about history, love it! The further back, the better! So I am all ears Son of Goddess!:fpraise:

[Nuadu]

Cambria, he's joking because a very much ancient (not just "old") Italian religion would be Religio Romana, or the Roman religion.

Thats not strictly true Toki, Religio Romana is a form of reconstructionism from America and its conception, methods and goals are typically American not Italian so religion romana in its modern conception cant be accurately described as Italian. It was born in America, its methods are typically modernist something that undermines Tradition valued in european culture and its goal is to create a religion that functions in America. It might draw on Italian history from books but its no more 'Italian' then a deep dish Pizza.

the modern practice of the Religio Romana is an attempt to reconstruct the ancient faith of Rome as closely as possible, making as few concessions to modern sensibilities as possible. As with other forms of historical reconstructionist paganism, every attempt is made to rely on actual historical and archaeological evidence, and interpolations are made only when the primary sources are silent, and then we strive to be consistent with them.


You know, the one with gods like Jupiter, Juno, Venus, Mars, Mercury, Janus, Vesta, etc. It is most likely far older than Stregheria is.
Again not strictly true. Reconstructionism conceived in the 1990's is a product of the 20th century as is Raven Grimmassi's version of the native Stregha. The only difference is one is based on early Italian history while the other is based on Traditional Italian culture. Both are American its just down to what you identify as being 'Italian'.


What We Are Not About




As we are concerned with historical accuracy, the public rites of the Religio Romana do not include:

Ceremonial Magick or traditions influenced by it such as Wicca.
Italian witchcraft, or Stregha (an indigenous Italian form of witchcraft with some classical elements, but with its origins in the 14th Century).
Go for reconstructionism or Stregheria if its your thing, but dont present it as the native 'Italian' religion even if its your judgement that Italian culture isnt sufficiently Italian. I see too many forms of recon and British and American NeoPaganism doing that and too few people practicing either actually correcting the misconceptions. To use boring Politically Correct corporate speak its 'cultural misappropriation' and an uncessecary evil when the membership of both exist outside the Italian Culture.

As a Pagan I would consider that the term we all borrow from when we identify our religious belief is carried by families from Rural Italy 'the de Pagano's. When you identify yourself as a pagan you are incorrectly identifying yourself as one of them, and when you identify yourself as practicing Italian Paganism when what youre doing is a product of American Culture you are dismissing their existance altogether. An act of complete disrespect for history, Heritage and a peoples belief.

Be proud of your own culture, its mimmicked by young people the world over. You dont need to legitimise what you do by relating to european culture and the differences between European Cultures and American Cultures means its impossible anyway. Youre only crippling yourself in the long run.

[Toki Wartooth]

Thats not strictly true Toki, Religio Romana is a form of reconstructionism from America and its conception, methods and goals are typically American not Italian so religion romana in its modern conception cant be accurately described as Italian. It was born in America, its methods are typically modernist something that undermines Tradition valued in european culture and its goal is to create a religion that functions in America. It might draw on Italian history from books but its no more 'Italian' then a deep dish Pizza.

Again not strictly true. Reconstructionism conceived in the 1990's is a product of the 20th century as is Raven Grimmassi's version of the native Stregha. The only difference is one is based on early Italian history while the other is based on Traditional Italian culture. Both are American its just down to what you identify as being 'Italian'.

Go for reconstructionism or Stregheria if its your thing, but dont present it as the native 'Italian' religion even if its your judgement that Italian culture isnt sufficiently Italian. I see too many forms of recon and British and American NeoPaganism doing that and too few people practicing either actually correcting the misconceptions. To use boring Politically Correct corporate speak its 'cultural misappropriation' and an uncessecary evil when the membership of both exist outside the Italian Culture.

As a Pagan I would consider that the term we all borrow from when we identify our religious belief is carried by families from Rural Italy 'the de Pagano's. When you identify yourself as a pagan you are incorrectly identifying yourself as one of them, and when you identify yourself as practicing Italian Paganism when what youre doing is a product of American Culture you are dismissing their existance altogether. An act of complete disrespect for history, Heritage and a peoples belief.

Be proud of your own culture, its mimmicked by young people the world over. You dont need to legitimise what you do by relating to european culture and the differences between European Cultures and American Cultures means its impossible anyway. Youre only crippling yourself in the long run.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio_Romana It looks like both to me.

Are you saying only Americans or people in the US can practice Religio Romana? What about any Italians who follow it? Besides that, what if some people don't go through groups like Nova Roma? Or, if they don't go through people like Grimassi? What if they simply go to the ancient authors and worship in ancient ways?

I'd also say Religio Romana was Italian, considering it was Rome and the Ancient Roman civilization's state religion. It may have faded out, and it may not have any real foothold now, but it did then -- and it originated with those in the Italian peninsula.

I also don't think we're associating ourselves with any "de Paganos" family. What the heck? I'm more likely to think we're just taking it from pagus, Latin for village or rural district, which eventually became somewhat derogatory, and then blossomed into something more positive for polytheistic and/or nature religions/movements (see Margot Adler's Drawing Down the Moon, p. 8-9).

Um...so I guess, in short, I just disagree with you. *Shrugs*

[BryonMorrigan]

Thats not strictly true Toki, Religio Romana is a form of reconstructionism from America and its conception, methods and goals are typically American not Italian so religion romana in its modern conception cant be accurately described as Italian. It was born in America, its methods are typically modernist something that undermines Tradition valued in european culture and its goal is to create a religion that functions in America. It might draw on Italian history from books but its no more 'Italian' then a deep dish Pizza.



Again not strictly true. Reconstructionism conceived in the 1990's is a product of the 20th century as is Raven Grimmassi's version of the native Stregha. The only difference is one is based on early Italian history while the other is based on Traditional Italian culture. Both are American its just down to what you identify as being 'Italian'.
Go for reconstructionism or Stregheria if its your thing, but dont present it as the native 'Italian' religion even if its your judgement that Italian culture isnt sufficiently Italian. I see too many forms of recon and British and American NeoPaganism doing that and too few people practicing either actually correcting the misconceptions. To use boring Politically Correct corporate speak its 'cultural misappropriation' and an uncessecary evil when the membership of both exist outside the Italian Culture.

As a Pagan I would consider that the term we all borrow from when we identify our religious belief is carried by families from Rural Italy 'the de Pagano's. When you identify yourself as a pagan you are incorrectly identifying yourself as one of them, and when you identify yourself as practicing Italian Paganism when what youre doing is a product of American Culture you are dismissing their existance altogether. An act of complete disrespect for history, Heritage and a peoples belief.

Be proud of your own culture, its mimmicked by young people the world over. You dont need to legitimise what you do by relating to european culture and the differences between European Cultures and American Cultures means its impossible anyway. Youre only crippling yourself in the long run.

'Twas just a leetle joke. Calm down.

[Nuadu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio_Romana It looks like both to me.

Are you saying only Americans or people in the US can practice Religio Romana?
No that would be a pointless and easily dismissed argument. I would say its likely that some Italians do practice religio romana but since kids emulate American culture the world over, since America has an expanding military presence in Italy and since American companies that evolved into multinationals operate in Italy that its not unlikely that those people take their conception of self through from American culture. Its certainly difficult to argue that Gucci Roasary beads arent a product of Capitalist influence on Italian culture and that sets a precedent.


Besides that, what if some people don't go through groups like Nova Roma? Or, if they don't go through people like Grimassi? What if they simply go to the ancient authors and worship in ancient ways?

If their conception, method and goal are different to that of Religio Romana then I would say they arent practicing religio romana. Is it fair to say that an Italian person who grows up around Italian sacred sites and the native literature and views it all through the lense of nationalism has a belief conceived differently then that of American Religio Romana? Is it also fair to say that embracing the native traditions first and not methods like rationalism and empiracism that undermines traditional belief that they are different to Religio Romana? Is it also fair to say that because they are reviving traditions within the cultural framework as all cultures have done historically and are not attempting to create something for use outside their culture in America that what they are doing is different. Is it possible that with those three things that what they are doing is not religio romana at all because of those differences? IMO it is.


I'd also say Religio Romana was Italian, considering it was Rome and the Ancient Roman civilization's state religion It may have faded out, and it may not have any real foothold now, but it did then -- and it originated with those in the Italian peninsula.
That is a modernist perspective on culture not a traditional one. Everything done within a cultures traditional framework is legitimised by relating it to the cultures history, to you it appears that a culture has faded because tradition is counter intuitive to progress and so it must remake itself according to a new model to survive but to a traditional culture it took what was best and evolved putting aside what became cumbersome and irrelivant to the time. That strega was revived in the 14th century is an example of how so long as the cultural framework exists the traditions that are put aside are be revived and placed in native context when they become relevant again.


I also don't think we're associating ourselves with any "de Paganos" family. What the heck? I'm more likely to think we're just taking it from pagus, Latin for village or rural district, which eventually became somewhat derogatory, and then blossomed into something more positive for polytheistic and/or nature religions/movements (see Margot Adler's Drawing Down the Moon, p. 8-9).

Like Strega Italian family names date to the 14th century and the family name De Pagano is a descriptive name based on a quality of an individual. Like De Pagano they developed from Nicknames. The de pagano are people of the rural district their name literally translates as - From(Di) (Pagan)the Rural. They were not considered to be metropolitan because they held beliefs and traditions not in keeping with the enlightend metropolitan elites. The types of beliefs we look at today and call pagan, (which is not to say they consider them pagan).


Um...so I guess, in short, I just disagree with you. *Shrugs*

Its youre entitlement and youre probably in the majority cos I spend most of my time on MW peeing against the wind.

[Nuadu]

'Twas just a leetle joke. Calm down.

Im not mad Bryon but as a joke even if its a good un its an inside joke and not everyone is in the know. Ive seen people say so and so neopagan thing belongs to so and so trad culture but I rarely see that opinion questioned... and its rarely true.

[Son of Goddess]

Nova Roma is American. The Religio Romana is not. There are several prominent groups in Italy that are also Roman reconstructionists and practice the Religio Romana, one of them being Movimento Tradizionale Romano (MTR)--native Italians studying history and reconstructing their indigenous religion to suit the current age in their homeland.

I myself am no longer a member of Nova Roma.

[BryonMorrigan]

Im not mad Bryon but as a joke even if its a good un its an inside joke and not everyone is in the know. Ive seen people say so and so neopagan thing belongs to so and so trad culture but I rarely see that opinion questioned... and its rarely true.


Besides, when it comes to the Religio Romana and its relationship to traditional Italian culture...I am reminded of a discussion I had with a friend a week ago.

He's a Folkisch Asatruar, and he asked me what "folkisch" connection I had to the religion. I responded by pointing out that at its height, the Roman Empire spread from Hadrian's Wall to North Africa, incorporating a multitude of non-Latin gods and goddesses from many of those locales. In other words, people from most of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa could claim a "folkisch" connection to the religion. I view both the Religio Romana and Hellenic Polytheism (*) to be religions that are beyond "folkisch-ness," (**) just as Christianity and Islam later became.

Italia as a concept did not exist in the era of ancient Rome, nor did the "Hellas" that exists today. That the modern Religio Romana is touched by the culture of America...which is itself largely patterned after the Roman Republic...is hardly a de-legitimizing factor.

However, I know next to nothing about Strega, other than the fact that most practitioners of it (apart from those in America who did not learn it from a familial source...) generally consider themselves Catholic...just as modern American practitioners of Hoodoo or Pow-Wow generally identify as Christian.

And for the record, I personally don't believe that "folkisch-ness" has anything to do with me or my beliefs. Certainly, to some, like many Asatruar, Jews, Native-Americans, and Zoroastrians...it's a big deal. For me? Bleh. A curiosity, nothing more.



____________________________________________________________

(*) For similar reasons, in this case Alexander the Great's promotion of Hellenic Polytheism throughout much of Southwestern Asia, and the adoption of Greek deities into the Roman pantheon...

(**) And then I pointed out that, yes...I do actually have a "folkisch" connection to ancient Rome. (I am related to the Flavian family. Long story.)

[Cambria]

:confused: Wow it all seems much much more complex than I had originally thought..*overwhelmed sigh* maybe I'll just stick to what I know. :weirdsmil

[Nuadu]

Italia as a concept did not exist in the era of ancient Rome, nor did the "Hellas" that exists today. That the modern Religio Romana is touched by the culture of America...which is itself largely patterned after the Roman Republic...is hardly a de-legitimizing factor.

Im not saying Religio Romana isnt a legit form of paganism. IMO practitioners of religio romana et al should be proud of the culture they grew up in and all it produces rather then trying to legitimize products of their culture by insinuating it into the history of another culture.

Religion in the roman empire existed but Religio Romana is not the religion of the roman empire its an American expression inspired by that modern cultures understanding of the Roman religion in retrospect. Just using a name doesnt change that anymore then using the name Nuadu makes me the God Nuadu.


And for the record, I personally don't believe that "folkisch-ness" has anything to do with me or my beliefs.

I wouldnt expect you to value it in that way not having growing up in the trad culture where it could have legitimized your sense of Identity. Youre American not a native Italian you dont share the same sense of Identity as one and theres absolutely no need to share that unless you decide to live in Italy.

[BryonMorrigan]

I wouldnt expect you to value it in that way not having growing up in the trad culture where it could have legitimized your sense of Identity. Youre American not a native Italian you dont share the same sense of Identity as one and theres absolutely no need to share that unless you decide to live in Italy.

It's funny. If I were to worship the Gods and Goddesses traditionally associated with America...then those would be the Native American pantheon. But since I know a few tradition-oriented Native Americans, I know that they often feel like they're feeling the effects of a "second genocide" when us European-Americans start appropriating their religion...(Especially when 99.99999% of us don't really understand it, and think you can just change the names of other deities into NA deities, and POOF! you're practicing NA religion!)

But furthermore, I feel absolutely no connection to NA spirituality...and I'd be lying if I said otherwise.

And yes, as someone working towards a classics Ph.D., I certainly understand that the modern Religio Romana is a new interpretation of the ancient religion. But frankly, I posit that ANY modern religion is a new interpretation of an ancient religion. (Except the ones that are completely "new," like Scientology for example.) Modern Christianity is very different from that practiced in the first century C.E. Asatru is not the same as the ancient Germanic religions. And frankly, while I know little about Irish Paganism, I have to assume that what you practice is not the same as what was practiced prior to "Saint" Patrick showing up.

I would assume, based on discussions that I've had with Celtic Recons, that most of the information we have on Irish Paganism comes from modern interpretations of archaeological evidence, combined with highly Christianized oral legends and stories.

Now, compare that to the sheer volume of Latin and Greek sources detailing the beliefs and practices of the ancient Romans. I mean, if there is one form of ancient Paganism where we're pretty sure we know what the ancients really thought and believed...then it's the Roman Religion. I'm not saying that this makes Roman Polytheism more "valid" or "true" than Irish Paganism...I'm just saying that, I mean...I wonder why, of all ancient religions to target with that brush...you'd point it at the Religio Romana, especially when the majority of people that I've run into who are Roman Polytheists are highly educated in the Classics. And furthermore, apart from my joke, I've never heard any others of "us" claiming to be the heirs of Italian culture. Italy =/= Ancient Rome.

[Nuadu]

It's funny. If I were to worship the Gods and Goddesses traditionally associated with America...then those would be the Native American pantheon. But since I know a few tradition-oriented Native Americans, I know that they often feel like they're feeling the effects of a "second genocide" when us European-Americans start appropriating their religion

Thank you for sharing your perspective Bryon I understand that the statements about forms of Paganism like Religio Romana being the same as the original native religions arent intended as a deliberate misdirection. From your post I would say those statements are a product of your environment, where the traditionally sacred is limited to reservations, the history of your culture where as a colony you feel unwelcome in participating the in the traditionally sacred and the status quo existing in your contemporary society.

My suggestion is that in embracing those things as unique and important influences in your lives rather then distancing yourself from it by attempting to place your religion outside that context that the product of your culture will thrive better and will reinforce your sense of belonging within your culture if you aknowlege and embrace things.


But frankly, I posit that ANY modern religion is a new interpretation of an ancient religion. (Except the ones that are completely "new," like Scientology for example.) Modern Christianity is very different from that practiced in the first century C.E. Asatru is not the same as the ancient Germanic religions. And frankly, while I know little about Irish Paganism, I have to assume that what you practice is not the same as what was practiced prior to "Saint" Patrick showing up.

Very true and I wouldnt apply any kind of value judgement to that. If you research the history of neopaganism youll find that polytheism as we understand it only became a part of neopaganism in the 20th century. The way we live our lives today is different, not only to how life was lived for modern neopagans but because our societies have completely changed the way we live our lives is different to the last native polytheists in Europe.


I'm just saying that, I mean...I wonder why, of all ancient religions to target with that brush...you'd point it at the Religio Romana, especially when the majority of people that I've run into who are Roman Polytheists are highly educated in the Classics. And furthermore, apart from my joke, I've never heard any others of "us" claiming to be the heirs of Italian culture. Italy =/= Ancient Rome.

I posted in the vein of the thread, Im sorry if it offended you. IMO the same applies to Asatru, CR, Hellenic Recon and all other forms of recon, theyre american not european and theres nothing at all wrong with that, I think you should be proud of your culture and its products and achievements no matter what culture you belong to. I find it unusual that it isnt the case with recons. You are certainly entitled to believe that your religion is the best, just like youd believe all things close to your heart are better then others. I dont know that my mother is the best mom but I think she is and I know that my friends think their mothers are the best moms. There is no conflict involved because of that common understanding.

As for the italian thing, you only have to review the thread to see someone arguing that Religio Romana is italian. Since you mention CR the beginnings of CR lie in ADF Druidry something created in part by Isaac Bonewits, he mentions without any shame in a letter filled with pride in what the ADF have become that while the main goal was to have scholastic study create a genuinely traditional view of druidry that the work was done by a small number and a large number benefitted from their work. The same applies to all forms of Recon Ive seen. To you doing a degree things are obvious, not everyone is in a position to do a degree or has the inclination needed for structured study and to them not everything is so obvious. Thats not meant as an insult, there has to be doers to keep things rolling in a group as well as the deep thinkers.

[David19]

It's funny. If I were to worship the Gods and Goddesses traditionally associated with America...then those would be the Native American pantheon.

Or, if you wanted to worship the Gods and Goddesses of modern America, read 'American Gods' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gods) :boing:.

[BryonMorrigan]

I posted in the vein of the thread, Im sorry if it offended you.


It didn't really offend me...I misread what you wrote and got mildly snarky.

I've just been dealing a lot lately with Christians in academia saying that modern Pagans have no connection to ancient Pagans...and that we "make everything up." Of course, for many...that's true. For others, specifically Recons: them's fightin' words. (And, not being a Recon myself, I shouldn't get all hot and bothered or anything. It's just the condescending attitudes of Christian Supremacists that makes me wanna fight...)