Nassau DA says Hofstra rape accusation is false

[darkNight]

Before anyone "flames" me, let me say I take both rape, and false accusations of rape, very seriously:

http://www.newsday.com/news/hofstra-students-shocked-over-revelation-of-rape-hoax-1.1454879



Hofstra students who punched on their cell phones to read their text messages last night reacted with shock after reading university officials' alert saying the reported gang rape of a Hofstra student -- a report that put the campus on edge this week -- wasn't a rape at all.


The message, from Vice President for University Relations Melissa Connolly, said: "We have been notified by the Nassau County District Attorney's Office that the young woman involved in the alleged rape incident has recanted her claims against the five young men."

[Lunar Raven]

If she really lied, that's a horrible thing to do to someone. I say "if" because you never know. She could have recanted her statements out of fear. None the less..assuming she lied, and chances are she did..that sucks.

[Philosophia]

If she really lied, that's a horrible thing to do to someone. I say "if" because you never know. She could have recanted her statements out of fear. None the less..assuming she lied, and chances are she did..that sucks.

Exactly.

[EverChanging]

Sleeping with multiple people doesn't make you a slut. Lying and calling it rape because you're ashamed of yourself DOES.

[Nicholas]

Sleeping with multiple people doesn't make you a slut. Lying and calling it rape because you're ashamed of yourself DOES.

Cocaine is a hell of a drug...

actually what I meant to say is proof or evidence that she is lying? NONE.

Too many people these days make assertions without evidence these days.

[Bettie]

actually what I meant to say is proof or evidence that she is lying? NONE.

Too many people these days make assertions without evidence these days.


I agree. Recanting the claims is not an admission that she lied. The are many reasons why she could have done so - perhaps she felt pressured to drop the case, or was unwilling to put herself through the torment of a rape trial. Maybe she was fearful of going through with it, for many different reasons. You cannot assume that she lied, and I don't think calling anyone a slut in a thread title is warranted without full knowledge of the facts.

[Caitlin.ann]

Cocaine is a hell of a drug...

actually what I meant to say is proof or evidence that she is lying? NONE.

Too many people these days make assertions without evidence these days.


I agree. Recanting the claims is not an admission that she lied. The are many reasons why she could have done so - perhaps she felt pressured to drop the case, or was unwilling to put herself through the torment of a rape trial. Maybe she was fearful of going through with it, for many different reasons. You cannot assume that she lied, and I don't think calling anyone a slut in a thread title is warranted without full knowledge of the facts.
My thoughts as well.

[LittlePinky82]

If she really lied, that's a horrible thing to do to someone. I say "if" because you never know. She could have recanted her statements out of fear. None the less..assuming she lied, and chances are she did..that sucks.

Very true. Especially if it's a well known violent gang that's after this poor girl. So I am going to wait on this too. Sometimes it takes years to find out the truth. I remember a couple of years ago here there was a story of a guy who was accused of rape and it was found some twenty or so years later that the girl lied under oath and took away so many years of the guys life.

[Glowingsun]

I agree. Recanting the claims is not an admission that she lied. The are many reasons why she could have done so - perhaps she felt pressured to drop the case, or was unwilling to put herself through the torment of a rape trial. Maybe she was fearful of going through with it, for many different reasons. You cannot assume that she lied, and I don't think calling anyone a slut in a thread title is warranted without full knowledge of the facts.
agreed!

[LittlePinky82]

Cocaine is a hell of a drug...

actually what I meant to say is proof or evidence that she is lying? NONE.

Too many people these days make assertions without evidence these days.

So sad but true. That's what criminal investigations are supposed to do.... :(

[LittlePinky82]

I agree. Recanting the claims is not an admission that she lied. The are many reasons why she could have done so - perhaps she felt pressured to drop the case, or was unwilling to put herself through the torment of a rape trial. Maybe she was fearful of going through with it, for many different reasons. You cannot assume that she lied, and I don't think calling anyone a slut in a thread title is warranted without full knowledge of the facts.

Oh yes that happens more than people realize I think. Last spring I took a Corrections course and we watched a video and in it there was this woman who was a single mother of two elementary age children and she got pulled into the police station. They accused her of some crime (I forgot what it was I apologize) and she kept saying that she didn't do it and wanted to go home cause of her children. They eventually convinced her that if she confessed to the crime things would go a lot smoother and she could hurry up and get home. She didn't have a lawyer and never asked for one I don't think. I don't think the police ever asked her if she wanted one but I'm not for certain. She ended up having to pay money for the supposed crime and it put her in horrible debt. Basically I'm just saying that sometimes people say things that happen and it really didn't because of outside pressure. Especially with people of authority who have a lot of power. And I agree too about calling her name's.

[Cosmic_dragon]

If she really lied, that's a horrible thing to do to someone. I say "if" because you never know. She could have recanted her statements out of fear. None the less..assuming she lied, and chances are she did..that sucks.
agree. bad situation for everyone

[Raxeph]

I agree. Recanting the claims is not an admission that she lied. The are many reasons why she could have done so - perhaps she felt pressured to drop the case, or was unwilling to put herself through the torment of a rape trial. Maybe she was fearful of going through with it, for many different reasons. You cannot assume that she lied, and I don't think calling anyone a slut in a thread title is warranted without full knowledge of the facts.

I concur.

[memnoch]

I find it interesting how people are coming to her defense with no more knowledge than those who accuse...considering the prosecuter is considering pressing charges, and she recanted her statement while questioned by the prosecuter, the knowledge we have available does imply a lie. In short, those who attack those who believe she lied and defend this girl are just as guilty of jumping to conclusions and are being hypocritical. Either we don't have enough info therefore you remain neutral, or you go off what information is available and make your conclusion, and if you assume she was raped based off of what information we have, I would love to see you use the information available to back your opinion and not come up with hypotheticals.

[Philosophia]

I find it interesting how people are coming to her defense with no more knowledge than those who accuse...considering the prosecuter is considering pressing charges, and she recanted her statement while questioned by the prosecuter, the knowledge we have available does imply a lie. In short, those who attack those who believe she lied and defend this girl are just as guilty of jumping to conclusions and are being hypocritical. Either we don't have enough info therefore you remain neutral, or you go off what information is available and make your conclusion, and if you assume she was raped based off of what information we have, I would love to see you use the information available to back your opinion and not come up with hypotheticals.

Um, nobody here is defending her. What is happening is that she is being shamed as a liar when nobody knows what actually happened and why she recanted her statement. I don't see how anybody here is stating that she is somehow innocent but that we don't have the information to prove either way.

[Raxeph]

I find it interesting how people are coming to her defense with no more knowledge than those who accuse...

No-one's really defending her, though. Everyone's stating the case of 'if'. If she was raped, we pity her. If she wasn't, we don't.

[Infinite Grey]

Innocent until proven guilty: a rape examination would have venerated the boys or the girl.

[Philosophia]

Innocent until proven guilty: a rape examination would have venerated the boys or the girl.

Depends if they used a condom or not.

[Agaliha]

Innocent until proven guilty: a rape examination would have venerated the boys or the girl.


Depends if they used a condom or not.

Even if there's no sperm, an examination can show tearing and other indications for force. Though, I assume things like this could show up with rough consensual sex as well. But still, there are other things to look for like lose pubic hairs...I'm not sure that it would help in this case or not, though.

[memnoch]

Um, nobody here is defending her. What is happening is that she is being shamed as a liar when nobody knows what actually happened and why she recanted her statement. I don't see how anybody here is stating that she is somehow innocent but that we don't have the information to prove either way.

I misread a post and apologize, although if anyone were to do that my statement would apply.

I also stand by my statement that based on the facts provided it is safer to assume she lied than to assume she didn't.

[Infinite Grey]

Even if there's no sperm, an examination can show tearing and other indications for force. Though, I assume things like this could show up with rough consensual sex as well. But still, there are other things to look for like lose pubic hairs...I'm not sure that it would help in this case or not, though.

There are differences between between the damage caused by consensual sex and rape. It is not definitive, but it has its uses.

[Philosophia]

Even if there's no sperm, an examination can show tearing and other indications for force. Though, I assume things like this could show up with rough consensual sex as well. But still, there are other things to look for like lose pubic hairs...I'm not sure that it would help in this case or not, though.

Like you stated, these things are generally indicators as rough consensual sex as well.

[darkNight]

If she really lied, that's a horrible thing to do to someone. I say "if" because you never know. She could have recanted her statements out of fear. None the less..assuming she lied, and chances are she did..that sucks.

I'm sorry, I should have included this too...



The attorney for another of the accused men, 20-year-old Kevin Taveras, said a video of the sexual encounter confirms reports that the victim was not forcibly attacked.
"It looks more like a porn movie," Victor Daly-Rivera said. "It showed just the opposite of what the allegations were. There was no tying up, there was no bruising, there was no screaming."

[darkNight]

I misread a post and apologize, although if anyone were to do that my statement would apply.

I also stand by my statement that based on the facts provided it is safer to assume she lied than to assume she didn't.

Based on the facts that she did (in fact) lie about being tied up, etc... yeah, the assumption becomes a proven fact.

[memnoch]

Based on the facts that she did (in fact) lie about being tied up, etc... yeah, the assumption becomes a proven fact.

color me shocked

[Philosophia]

Based on the facts that she did (in fact) lie about being tied up, etc... yeah, the assumption becomes a proven fact.

How do you know she did lie about that?

[memnoch]

How do you know she did lie about that?

From his other post

The attorney for another of the accused men, 20-year-old Kevin Taveras, said a video of the sexual encounter confirms reports that the victim was not forcibly attacked.
"It looks more like a porn movie," Victor Daly-Rivera said. "It showed just the opposite of what the allegations were. There was no tying up, there was no bruising, there was no screaming."

[Philosophia]

From his other post

The attorney for another of the accused men, 20-year-old Kevin Taveras, said a video of the sexual encounter confirms reports that the victim was not forcibly attacked.
"It looks more like a porn movie," Victor Daly-Rivera said. "It showed just the opposite of what the allegations were. There was no tying up, there was no bruising, there was no screaming."

I don't know...it's the attorney for one of the accused men. Wouldn't they have checked for bruising at the beginning of the investigation?

[Philosophia]

I'm sorry, I should have included this too...

[/B]

Link to the article?

[darkNight]

color me shocked

Yeah, ususally I say (totally deadpan) "notice my shocked face", but being over a computer, you would really have to visualize it.:collapse:

[memnoch]

here is another link where the DA said this girl admitted to lying...but maybe she is lying about lying because it is clear that people here will assume that men raped women no matter what really happened. I'm reminded of the Duke Lacrosse rape story.

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/da-hofstra-student-lied-about-rape-4-released-1.1454571

[Philosophia]

here is another link where the DA said this girl admitted to lying...but maybe she is lying about lying because it is clear that people here will assume that men raped women no matter what really happened. I'm reminded of the Duke Lacrosse rape story.

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/da-hofstra-student-lied-about-rape-4-released-1.1454571

What? Who here is assuming that?

[memnoch]

What? Who here is assuming that?

come on, the initial story was leaning towards lying, but several people didn't want to believe it. Then DarkNight posted about how the lawyer said there was a video and there was no signs of rape, yet that still wasn't enough...it was quite clear the assumptions being made.

[Philosophia]

come on, the initial story was leaning towards lying, but several people didn't want to believe it. Then DarkNight posted about how the lawyer said there was a video and there was no signs of rape, yet that still wasn't enough...it was quite clear the assumptions being made.

You're joking right? Nobody stated they didn't want to believe it, there just wasn't any evidence that suggested she was lying about being raped other than her recanting it.

I questioned about the lawyer because he has an obvious reason to be against her. Plus, I thought some aspects seemed weird, i.e. the bruising. The only assumption I'm reading is from you, Memnoch. Not everybody believes everything they read.

[darkNight]

Link to the article?


Sorry, here it is http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2009/9/17/522176.html

[memnoch]

You're joking right? Nobody stated they didn't want to believe it, there just wasn't any evidence that suggested she was lying about being raped other than her recanting it.

I questioned about the lawyer because he has an obvious reason to be against her. Plus, I thought some aspects seemed weird, i.e. the bruising. The only assumption I'm reading is from you, Memnoch. Not everybody believes everything they read.

as I said before, everything pointed to this girl lying, yet you wouldn't believe it. Claiming you don't know because we don't know everything is almost like saying OJ didn't kill Nicole, MJ didn't have inappropriate relations with children, and we don't know that the government wasn't behind 9/11...sometimes the story is clear even when one could question whether or not it is an airtight case.

[Philosophia]

as I said before, everything pointed to this girl lying, yet you wouldn't believe it. Claiming you don't know because we don't know everything is almost like saying OJ didn't kill Nicole, MJ didn't have inappropriate relations with children, and we don't know that the government wasn't behind 9/11...sometimes the story is clear even when one could question whether or not it is an airtight case.

Everything wasn't pointing to this girl lying and I'm still not 100% on it yet. Recanting does not mean she lied about being raped nor does it mean she was raped.

This is not one of those times where it is simply easy to know. Unlike the examples you gave, there is not enough evidence in this case to successfully prove either way. It also raises a lot more questions as well.

However, for some odd reason, you seem to have this black/white mentality where you believe if you don't think she's lying, you must believe her. As far as I can tell, nobody here (including myself) has stated either way if we believe she was raped. For myself, there are inconsistencies in this case that aroused my suspicions, i.e. evidence, the video tape, etc.. That was not the case in the OJ, MJ, or 9-11.

[memnoch]

Everything wasn't pointing to this girl lying and I'm still not 100% on it yet. Recanting does not mean she lied about being raped nor does it mean she was raped.

This is not one of those times where it is simply easy to know. Unlike the examples you gave, there is not enough evidence in this case to successfully prove either way. It also raises a lot more questions as well.

However, for some odd reason, you seem to have this black/white mentality where you believe if you don't think she's lying, you must believe her. As far as I can tell, nobody here (including myself) has stated either way if we believe she was raped. For myself, there are inconsistencies in this case that aroused my suspicions, i.e. evidence, the video tape, etc.. That was not the case in the OJ, MJ, or 9-11.

WOW! Even with the DA stating that this girl admitted to lying it isn't enough for you. What more do you need...I'm starting to think you wouldn't believe it if she told you herself after you watched the video. I find it interesting how in rape cases it is assumed the man/men are guilty until proven otherwise, no matter what happens. I would take it even further and say that the fact that women will believe the "victim" until the very end is borderline sexist. I could only imagine what would happen if there was a rape videotaped with the rapist admitting he did it and a guy tried to defend him.

[Philosophia]

WOW! Even with the DA stating that this girl admitted to lying it isn't enough for you. What more do you need...I'm starting to think you wouldn't believe it if she told you herself after you watched the video. I find it interesting how in rape cases it is assumed the man/men are guilty until proven otherwise, no matter what happens. I would take it even further and say that the fact that women will believe the "victim" until the very end is borderline sexist. I could only imagine what would happen if there was a rape videotaped with the rapist admitting he did it and a guy tried to defend him.

OMG, the DA stated she recanted! She must be lying about being raped!!! Shock! Horror!

Seriously, memnoch, this has to be the most stupidest comment I have ever seen from you to me. You are so stuck in this black/white mentality that I honestly feel sorry for you.

Do you know what I need to prove something to me? I decent explanation about the evidence found at the beginning of the investigation that "proved" (at that time) they were guilty. Rape cases are notoriously hard to prosecute and generally aren't if there isn't enough evidence. If this tape existed before, why didn't they show the police? What was the evidence on her body that indicated rape? This will also show whether the police fully investigated the claims.

Unlike you, I don't accept things at face value and I am really disappointed you would look at my gender and somehow assume that it has anything to do with it.

Who here is assuming the men are guilty? Who here is saying that they believe the victim? If you think that I do, please re-read my posts without your prejudiced blinders on. I never stated neither believed or disbelieved.

Unless I clearly state what I believe, never assume it. It really does make your comments look idiotic.

[memnoch]

OMG, the DA stated she recanted! She must be lying about being raped!!! Shock! Horror!

Seriously, memnoch, this has to be the most stupidest comment I have ever seen from you to me. You are so stuck in this black/white mentality that I honestly feel sorry for you.

Do you know what I need to prove something to me? I decent explanation about the evidence found at the beginning of the investigation that "proved" (at that time) they were guilty. Rape cases are notoriously hard to prosecute and generally aren't if there isn't enough evidence. If this tape existed before, why didn't they show the police? What was the evidence on her body that indicated rape? This will also show whether the police fully investigated the claims.

Unlike you, I don't accept things at face value and I am really disappointed you would look at my gender and somehow assume that it has anything to do with it.

Who here is assuming the men are guilty? Who here is saying that they believe the victim? If you think that I do, please re-read my posts without your prejudiced blinders on. I never stated neither believed or disbelieved.

Unless I clearly state what I believe, never assume it. It really does make your comments look idiotic.

Did you read my link, from my link

The Hofstra University student who told police that she had been tied up in a college dormitory stall Sunday and gang-raped by five men -- one of them a student -- told prosecutors late Wednesday that she lied about the incident, Nassau District Attorney Kathleen Rice said in a statement.

this is one of the most passive aggressive defenses ever. "I'm not defending her but we don't know she lied"...again, my comparison, sure, there is a video, sure they admitted to it but we don't know that they did it, is quite valid

[Philosophia]

Did you read my link, from my link

The Hofstra University student who told police that she had been tied up in a college dormitory stall Sunday and gang-raped by five men -- one of them a student -- told prosecutors late Wednesday that she lied about the incident, Nassau District Attorney Kathleen Rice said in a statement.

this is one of the most passive aggressive defenses ever. "I'm not defending her but we don't know she lied"...again, my comparison, sure, there is a video, sure they admitted to it but we don't know that they did it, is quite valid

Which essentially mean's she recanted and my assertion still stands. It is not one of the most passive aggressive defenses ever but I'm sure whatever I say, you'll disagree with me. A confession means jack shit in a court of law, unless it is corroborated with objective facts and evidence. So a person saying they committed a rape on video means nothing if there is no evidence to prove that assertion. Would I defend him? No, I wouldn't but I wouldn't say he was guilty either. If you want me to say it, I'll be a fence sitter, like this case.

[Lunacie]

Did you read my link, from my link

The Hofstra University student who told police that she had been tied up in a college dormitory stall Sunday and gang-raped by five men -- one of them a student -- told prosecutors late Wednesday that she lied about the incident, Nassau District Attorney Kathleen Rice said in a statement.

this is one of the most passive aggressive defenses ever. "I'm not defending her but we don't know she lied"...again, my comparison, sure, there is a video, sure they admitted to it but we don't know that they did it, is quite valid

If you could believe she would lie about the rape, is it not possible she could also lie about making up the story?

I'm not saying she lied about the rape - or about having lied about the rape. I agree with those who say it's just not possible for us to know for sure. I simply can't imagine a situation in which a young woman agrees to allow 5 men to have sex with her one after another. Could be this is taking place much more often than I realize, but EWWW - more than just "sloppy seconds".

[memnoch]

If you could believe she would lie about the rape, is it not possible she could also lie about making up the story?

I'm not saying she lied about the rape - or about having lied about the rape. I agree with those who say it's just not possible for us to know for sure. I simply can't imagine a situation in which a young woman agrees to allow 5 men to have sex with her one after another. Could be this is taking place much more often than I realize, but EWWW - more than just "sloppy seconds".

Let me just say that it isn't as uncommon as you think.

[Nox_Mortus]

If you could believe she would lie about the rape, is it not possible she could also lie about making up the story?

I'm not saying she lied about the rape - or about having lied about the rape. I agree with those who say it's just not possible for us to know for sure. I simply can't imagine a situation in which a young woman agrees to allow 5 men to have sex with her one after another. Could be this is taking place much more often than I realize, but EWWW - more than just "sloppy seconds".

I can, only usually it's more a long the lines of "all at the same time" instead of "one after the other" at least in my experience.

[Lunacie]

I can, only usually it's more a long the lines of "all at the same time" instead of "one after the other" at least in my experience.

Unless they were using the handicapped stall, I don't see how six of them would have fit in there and still have been able to move.
http://www.paganforum.com/Smileys/custom/grouphug.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);)

[HetHert]

You'd be surprised at the creativity that comes out when bodies start slapping...from doing the wild thang!

On that note...

I'm waiting for more info on this one.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

You'd be surprised at the creativity that comes out when bodies start slapping...from doing the wild thang!

On that note...

I'm waiting for more info on this one.

Agreed, with the waiting for more information. I looked around at some of the links to the story, and the girl indicated that she went home, her boyfriend started asking her some questions, and then they went to campus security where she made the accusation. A short video turned up of the situation, and she recanted the accusation and said that she was lying. My guess is she was embarassed about the situation and made the story up to save face with the boyfriend, adding the additional elements of force (like the ropes) to allay some of the personal responsibility he might feel she had for the situation.

HOWEVER, that's not to say she wasn't raped, or asked them to stop the situation off camera. Determining what is considered consensual sex, even with a video, could be difficult, especially if the individuals were intoxicated. Intoxication is grounds for an accusation of rape whether or not consent was given from the intoxicated individual.

http://www.counseling.ilstu.edu/SexualAssaultPrevention/programs/educational/consensual.shtml

And, that definitely doesn't mean that I think that she's a slut anymore then I believe that the men who participated in the activities with her were sluts. If she lied about, then she's a liar, but we could argue about what makes someone a slut all day long.

[kristadb]

It was the "slut" comment as part of the thread title that pissed me off.

[aranarose]

I don't know...it's the attorney for one of the accused men. Wouldn't they have checked for bruising at the beginning of the investigation?

Bruising is not a clear indication of rape or consent. Some women don't bruise easily, and so won't have any bruising at all when raped. Some women bruise very easily, and sex a bit rougher than normal will cause bruises.


If you could believe she would lie about the rape, is it not possible she could also lie about making up the story?

I'm not saying she lied about the rape - or about having lied about the rape. I agree with those who say it's just not possible for us to know for sure. I simply can't imagine a situation in which a young woman agrees to allow 5 men to have sex with her one after another. Could be this is taking place much more often than I realize, but EWWW - more than just "sloppy seconds".

Um... when I was in college, going through a lot of issues from growing up abused, I would have, and on occasion did, sleep with multiple men, both at the same time and in a row. It's a LOT more common than you think.

[Philosophia]

Bruising is not a clear indication of rape or consent. Some women don't bruise easily, and so won't have any bruising at all when raped. Some women bruise very easily, and sex a bit rougher than normal will cause bruises.

That was about the lawyer stating that she wasn't bruised from being tied up.

[Melian The Maia]

Despite the seriousness of the issue being discussed here, I couldn't help but laugh at HetHert's comment. :bigredgri



You'd be surprised at the creativity that comes out when bodies start slapping...from doing the wild thang!

[aranarose]

That was about the lawyer stating that she wasn't bruised from being tied up.

But again, tying up may or may not leave bruising. And being tied up is also not a clear indication of rape, as many people enjoy being tied up during sexual encounters.

I won't judge this woman a slut, as I feel that's a word that needs to be eliminated from our language. Humans are a sexual species, and it's ****ed up that women are condemned for enjoying sex, whereas a man who ****ed 5 women in a row or at the same time would be hailed a hero.

But that doesn't mean she isn't a liar and shouldn't be prosecuted for false accusations and filing a false report. Because those false accusations can really **** up the lives of the accused.

However, I think a lot more investigation has to be done. Was she raped? If she wasn't, why did she accuse them of rape? If she lied, she needs some serious help dealing with the issues that would A) cause her to sleep with five men in a row/at the same time and B) turn around and accuse them of rape.

I have no problem with women choosing to participate in what amounts to a small orgy. I've done it myself, and enjoyed it. However, to turn around and regret it so much that said woman accuses them of rape indicates serious personal issues that need to be dealt with or she'll just do it again and again and again.

[Lunar Raven]

here is another link where the DA said this girl admitted to lying...but maybe she is lying about lying because it is clear that people here will assume that men raped women no matter what really happened. I'm reminded of the Duke Lacrosse rape story.

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/da-hofstra-student-lied-about-rape-4-released-1.1454571

That's a ridiculous statement. Seriously.

I'm a guy, why would I think they raped women no matter what? I secretly hate my own gender? Why would anyone think that? I missed the DA part at first..yet, I'm still unsure. It's one article, it's one instance, and there's not a whole lot of information.

But besides that, we got a thread that basically said..."this woman's a slut because she recanted her story!". Recanting means very little in the legal system -- recanting can mean that you don't want to go through a trial, you were threatened, the police intimidated you to do so..you're scared, or of course, and which as I said, is probably true..she lied.

Yet still we don't know, nor do you. I haven't seen anyone in here saying the guys are rapists, or that she was telling the truth. We are simply saying that it's possible that she isn't lying..and that she recanted for whatever personal reason. WE DON'T KNOW EITHER WAY. Why are you so aggressive about it? Do you think everyone here thinks guys are automatically rapists or something? We don't. At least, I don't. All I'm saying (and I'm sure most) is that based on one article, and the fact that she recanted her story .. we cannot know for sure that she lied or not..and there is the possibility that she didn't.


It was the "slut" comment as part of the thread title that pissed me off.

Same, really, especially when we really don't know for sure.

[Stormbeard]

fapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfap

[Cloaked Raven]

HetHert: I agree about the creativity. ;)

Back to the topic: I think I'm going to reserve judgment for both sides for now.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

But besides that, we got a thread that basically said..."this woman's a slut because she recanted her story!".

I assumed he was saying she was a slut because she slept with 5 - 6 guys, and was not raped.

[TuathaSidhe]

Either they raped her and she lied about it
Either they didnt rape her and she lied about it


I fail to see how either of those make her a slut. I'd be beans that if it were a guy that got with 5 women he'd be praised....but, anyways.

Its going to be awhile before anyone knows the truth me thinks, so its pointless with the back and forth crap IMHO.

I dont see anyone defending her, or condeming the boys. But, if it makes you feel better Mem. Take your pick...


OMG that poor girl! How could they do this! She would never ever lie without a good reason! EVER!

or

Yup, they raped her, evil awful power hungry driven men, all of them, awful dirty minded men!





(toung in cheek)

[~Audra~]

assuming she was lying, that's an evil thing to do...but there is, like others before me have said, a chance that she could have changed her story for something...or the school could have changed it for her to avoid conflict with other students and potential students not enrolling because of stuff like that...

[ShadowcatX]

If you are tied up, and you strugle against the bonds with all your strength, you get rope burns and bruising, doesn't matter if you do or do not bruise easilly.

If 5 guys hold you down and rape you while you fight against them with all your might, you get bruised rather you bruise easy or not.

If you claim that these things happened, and then claim they did not happen, rather they happened or not you are a liar.

And on a side note, I believe there is a difference in bruising patterns between rough consensual sex and rape.

And if a guy had sex with 5 girls in one night, yeah, he'd get praised. Part of that praise would probably involve him being called a slut, a whore, a manwhore, and a dirty dog. Society's standards are messed up with regards to sex.

[HetHert]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/17/hofstra-gang-rape-hoax-st_n_289774.html

I think this might have some updated info...

Apparently a lot of people thinks she's pretty guilty of being a douche. Judging from this story I'm inclined to start agreeing.

[Lunar Raven]

If you are tied up, and you strugle against the bonds with all your strength, you get rope burns and bruising, doesn't matter if you do or do not bruise easilly.

If 5 guys hold you down and rape you while you fight against them with all your might, you get bruised rather you bruise easy or not.

If you claim that these things happened, and then claim they did not happen, rather they happened or not you are a liar.

And on a side note, I believe there is a difference in bruising patterns between rough consensual sex and rape.

And if a guy had sex with 5 girls in one night, yeah, he'd get praised. Part of that praise would probably involve him being called a slut, a whore, a manwhore, and a dirty dog. Society's standards are messed up with regards to sex.

Good points. Though I don't know if any of the articles say anything about bruises? Regardless, most of the previous responses were based on the first article which was posted in the first post. That one really only told about her recanting her story..not about the video, etc. So I'm my opinion, after reading the other articles that were posted, she probably lied. Based on the first one alone..which started this topic, I wouldn't know.


its pointless with the back and forth crap IMHO.

I dont see anyone defending her, or condeming the boys. But, if it makes you feel better Mem. Take your pick...

OMG that poor girl! How could they do this! She would never ever lie without a good reason! EVER!

or

Yup, they raped her, evil awful power hungry driven men, all of them, awful dirty minded men!

(toung in cheek)

Exactly! :p I didn't see any of that either..just people exposing a bit of doubt, due to the first article only explaining that she recanted her story.

[memnoch]

Either they raped her and she lied about it
Either they didnt rape her and she lied about it


I fail to see how either of those make her a slut. I'd be beans that if it were a guy that got with 5 women he'd be praised....but, anyways.

Its going to be awhile before anyone knows the truth me thinks, so its pointless with the back and forth crap IMHO.

I dont see anyone defending her, or condeming the boys. But, if it makes you feel better Mem. Take your pick...


OMG that poor girl! How could they do this! She would never ever lie without a good reason! EVER!

or

Yup, they raped her, evil awful power hungry driven men, all of them, awful dirty minded men!





(toung in cheek)

no one has come out that far, as I pointed earlier, but when you have a situation where there is video, and she admitted to lying and people are trying to make excuses on why she could be lying about lying and it is still possible that she was raped I find it quite ridiculous. I think when people continue to defend a possibility of rape when the available evidence goes against it it really lessens the value of valid rape claims.

[Philosophia]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/17/hofstra-gang-rape-hoax-st_n_289774.html

I think this might have some updated info...

Apparently a lot of people thinks she's pretty guilty of being a douche. Judging from this story I'm inclined to start agreeing.

Now this is the evidence I was looking for. Thank you HetHert! However, I'm still questioning the investigation techniques and why the video wasn't released earlier.

[Lunacie]

no one has come out that far, as I pointed earlier, but when you have a situation where there is video, and she admitted to lying and people are trying to make excuses on why she could be lying about lying and it is still possible that she was raped I find it quite ridiculous. I think when people continue to defend a possibility of rape when the available evidence goes against it it really lessens the value of valid rape claims.

Possibly because women who have actually been raped have gone on to recant the rape accusation when confronted with disbelief, been called "a slut", been blamed for being in the wrong place or otherwise "asking for it", had pressure put on them by family members, school officials, police, lawyers, etc. I could go on, but the point is this:

Just because a woman recants her accusation of rape doesn't automatically mean she was actually lying about being raped.

The information about there being a video didn't come out until partway through the thread, and didn't influence those who were saying in a general way what I was saying above.

[aranarose]

Now this is the evidence I was looking for. Thank you HetHert! However, I'm still questioning the investigation techniques and why the video wasn't released earlier.

It may have been a matter of the accused getting the prosecution to actually listen to them when they said they had video.

[Philosophia]

It may have been a matter of the accused getting the prosecution to actually listen to them when they said they had video.

Agreed. But what about the police or whoever investigated it?

[memnoch]

Possibly because women who have actually been raped have gone on to recant the rape accusation when confronted with disbelief, been called "a slut", been blamed for being in the wrong place or otherwise "asking for it", had pressure put on them by family members, school officials, police, lawyers, etc. I could go on, but the point is this:

Just because a woman recants her accusation of rape doesn't automatically mean she was actually lying about being raped.

The information about there being a video didn't come out until partway through the thread, and didn't influence those who were saying in a general way what I was saying above.

men have been blamed for rape time and again when it wasn't true, often made to feel guilty for the slightest advances, and charged for sexual harassment based only on their gender...there are plenty of idiots out there of both sexes, the point being that we should go off of information available and not come out and find a way to make excuses when the evidence against them is clear.

Again, many accusations of rape have been false, but it would be wrong for me to try to continue defending a rapist if they said they did it...it works both ways.

[aranarose]

Agreed. But what about the police or whoever investigated it?

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the police didn't want to look at videos that the accused might have wanted to provide.

And prosecutors often steer the investigation, particularly in a crime that has the potential to be as high-profile as a 5-man gang rape in a college dorm would be.

[memnoch]

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the police didn't want to look at videos that the accused might have wanted to provide.

And prosecutors often steer the investigation, particularly in a crime that has the potential to be as high-profile as a 5-man gang rape in a college dorm would be.

the conspiracy theories get worse...first she didn't lie, then she "recanted" but didn't lie, then it was the school trying to cover it up, now it is the prosecutors...yes the big bad world of men is out to rape every woman and cover it all up.

I'm downright disgusted by this thread...huging sick

****, I'll take it one step further, I hope this slut does get gang raped by 5 men so she thinks serious accusations are a laughing matter...furthermore it would allow several people here to be right and I could agree with them so they would just drop it.

[Philosophia]

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the police didn't want to look at videos that the accused might have wanted to provide.

And prosecutors often steer the investigation, particularly in a crime that has the potential to be as high-profile as a 5-man gang rape in a college dorm would be.

That would be rather idiotic if that occurred but, like you said, it's not really surprising. This is just going to make it much harder for rape victims to come forward.

[Lunacie]

men have been blamed for rape time and again when it wasn't true, often made to feel guilty for the slightest advances, and charged for sexual harassment based only on their gender...there are plenty of idiots out there of both sexes, the point being that we should go off of information available and not come out and find a way to make excuses when the evidence against them is clear.

Again, many accusations of rape have been false, but it would be wrong for me to try to continue defending a rapist if they said they did it...it works both ways.


The point being . . . that posters here were NOT making excuses, they were explaining why sometimes women may recant after making an accusation of rape, whether a rape actually occurred or not.

And there was NOT a link to "clear evidence" in the first part of the thread.

Indeed, there is a history of both false accusations or accusing the wrong man but also of rapes where the guy got away with it. Most serial rapists are not caught until they have raped several times.

At one time the statistics showed more guys getting away with it than being falsely accused. Don't know whether things are more balanced now with women getting some support when they do report, but of course it is equally wrong for a man to be convicted of a rape he didn't commit.

[memnoch]

I'm done with this thread...I've really lost a lot of respect for many people here, and quite possibly women as a whole...this is pure sexist bullshit and I can't handle it anymore.

Yes, the whole world wants to rape you...do you feel better...will you sleep better having a man confirm that your crazy conspiracy b.s. is all true?

[Philosophia]

the conspiracy theories get worse...first she didn't lie, then she "recanted" but didn't lie, then it was the school trying to cover it up, now it is the prosecutors...yes the big bad world of men is out to rape every woman and cover it all up.

You are seriously reading things wrong. I can't even fathom how you read that in Aranarose's post.

[aranarose]

The point being . . . that posters here were NOT making excuses, they were explaining why sometimes women may recant after making an accusation of rape, whether a rape actually occurred or not.

And there was NOT a link to "clear evidence" in the first part of the thread.

Indeed, there is a history of both false accusations or accusing the wrong man but also of rapes where the guy got away with it. Most serial rapists are not caught until they have raped several times.

At one time the statistics showed more guys getting away with it than being falsely accused. Don't know whether things are more balanced now with women getting some support when they do report, but of course it is equally wrong for a man to be convicted of a rape he didn't commit.

I can sort of see where Memnoch is coming from. A lot of this thread has been, "Well, we don't want to judge her until there's more evidence, because lots of women who really were raped recant."

The claim that more evidence was needed to judge whether she was lying or not seems really silly to me. There was enough evidence shown in the first article that the university sent out a mass text to all students saying that she'd lied. Now I highly doubt the university would make such an admission if the prosecutor wasn't absolutely certain that she'd lied.

The evidence WAS there, and still most people in the thread were jumping on the, "Maybe she really was raped and her recanting is a lie," bandwagon.

[memnoch]

I can sort of see where Memnoch is coming from. A lot of this thread has been, "Well, we don't want to judge her until there's more evidence, because lots of women who really were raped recant."

The claim that more evidence was needed to judge whether she was lying or not seems really silly to me. There was enough evidence shown in the first article that the university sent out a mass text to all students saying that she'd lied. Now I highly doubt the university would make such an admission if the prosecutor wasn't absolutely certain that she'd lied.

The evidence WAS there, and still most people in the thread were jumping on the, "Maybe she really was raped and her recanting is a lie," bandwagon.

Thank you, I'm glad someone got it

[aranarose]

the conspiracy theories get worse...first she didn't lie, then she "recanted" but didn't lie, then it was the school trying to cover it up, now it is the prosecutors...yes the big bad world of men is out to rape every woman and cover it all up.

I'm downright disgusted by this thread...huging sick

hug, I'll take it one step further, I hope this slut does get gang raped by 5 men so she thinks serious accusations are a laughing matter...furthermore it would allow several people here to be right and I could agree with them so they would just drop it.

Wait the **** a minute.

Philosophia was asking why the video evidence hadn't come forward earlier, and I was pointing out that the police or prosecution might not pay attention to the 5 accused men and ignore any evidence that they might have.

I'm saying that without the video evidence, the police very well could have railroaded those guys because it could have been a very high profile case.

[Philosophia]

I can sort of see where Memnoch is coming from. A lot of this thread has been, "Well, we don't want to judge her until there's more evidence, because lots of women who really were raped recant."

The claim that more evidence was needed to judge whether she was lying or not seems really silly to me. There was enough evidence shown in the first article that the university sent out a mass text to all students saying that she'd lied. Now I highly doubt the university would make such an admission if the prosecutor wasn't absolutely certain that she'd lied.

The evidence WAS there, and still most people in the thread were jumping on the, "Maybe she really was raped and her recanting is a lie," bandwagon.

The evidence wasn't there, even if you believe it was. There wasn't evidence in the first article to even determine why she recanted. And, no, saying the university sent out a mass text to all students saying that she lied is not indicative of evidence.

[Mithrea]

I object to the word "slut" being used at all. It's a derrogatory slur against women based on something that is not any of your damn business (her sex life).

[aranarose]

The evidence wasn't there, even if you believe it was. There wasn't evidence in the first article to even determine why she recanted. And, no, saying the university sent out a mass text to all students saying that she lied is not indicative of evidence.

It's a logical assumption. The university would not send out a text saying that she was lying if they weren't certain that she was. For one thing, it would be a massive PR nightmare for them to send out such a text and have it turn out that she really was raped.

[memnoch]

Wait the hug a minute.

Philosophia was asking why the video evidence hadn't come forward earlier, and I was pointing out that the police or prosecution might not pay attention to the 5 accused men and ignore any evidence that they might have.

I'm saying that without the video evidence, the police very well could have railroaded those guys because it could have been a very high profile case.

I apologize I got so caught up in everyone making excuses that I misread your statement as the police were leading her to get her to say she was wrong.

So again, I am sorry

[memnoch]

I object to the word "slut" being used at all. It's a derrogatory slur against women based on something that is not any of your damn business (her sex life).

actually it became our business the moment she wrongfully accused 5 young men of a heinous crime

[Philosophia]

It's a logical assumption. The university would not send out a text saying that she was lying if they weren't certain that she was. For one thing, it would be a massive PR nightmare for them to send out such a text and have it turn out that she really was raped.

From one angle, yes. However, if they didn't send one out and they weren't prosecuted, people would start wondering why and become judgmental of the university's actions. That also would be a massive PR nightmare.

[aranarose]

I apologize I got so caught up in everyone making excuses that I misread your statement as the police were leading her to get her to say she was wrong.

So again, I am sorry

Apology accepted.

I've known a man accused of a rape he didn't commit. And he ended up serving 2 years before it was found out she'd lied about the rape. He tried to get the police and prosecution to listen to him, but they wouldn't. He had slept with her, and hadn't used protection. Apparently, she was married, the husband caught them, and she told him that it was rape. It was not pretty. Two years later, they found out that she was lying because she did it again. Cheated on her husband, he walked in, and he wasn't falling for it this time.

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if one of the guys had the video, tried to get the police and/or prosecution to view it, and they wouldn't. It's also possible he didn't have his cell phone with the video on him when he was arrested, and thus had to wait for his lawyer to be able to get it for him.

[aranarose]

From one angle, yes. However, if they didn't send one out and they weren't prosecuted, people would start wondering why and become judgmental of the university's actions. That also would be a massive PR nightmare.

Again, it would be in their best interest to wait for assurance one way or the other from the prosecutor, and not jump the gun on it.

[memnoch]

Apology accepted.

I've known a man accused of a rape he didn't commit. And he ended up serving 2 years before it was found out she'd lied about the rape. He tried to get the police and prosecution to listen to him, but they wouldn't. He had slept with her, and hadn't used protection. Apparently, she was married, the husband caught them, and she told him that it was rape. It was not pretty. Two years later, they found out that she was lying because she did it again. Cheated on her husband, he walked in, and he wasn't falling for it this time.

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if one of the guys had the video, tried to get the police and/or prosecution to view it, and they wouldn't. It's also possible he didn't have his cell phone with the video on him when he was arrested, and thus had to wait for his lawyer to be able to get it for him.

as I just told philosophia in pm, I have been falsely accused of both sexual harassment and rape. I was fortunate enough for the truth to have come out before I faced any sort of consequences. I take topics like this very seriously. However based on my experiences I still assume based on evidence, and would be the first up in arms if the evidence pointed the other way. Rape is a very serious issue and accusations should not be thrown around lightly.

Furthermore there are many women out there, many of whom call themselves feminists who have the attitude I perceived in this thread, that if there is an accusation it must be true because all men are evil...and because of that I may have come across with an even stronger bias. I personally try to go with the evidence available and do not try to find a "what if" scenario and can not understand why others do. I do realize that there are women out there that have been raped and back down for many reasons. I think we should focus more on empowering them to come out with the truth than trying to find rape in every accusation made.

I really do think the laws should be changed and this woman should face the kind of sentences the young men she accused were facing.

With all of that said I would like to apologize to everyone for many of my statements. It would be a lie if I said I was not hurt, upset, saddened and even have a temporary loss of respect for people in this thread. However it is something that will pass, and I will get over...while I may not be happy over this debate, I don't want anyone to think this is something that I will carry on as a grudge, or that I will feel any different after this is over.

[Philosophia]

Again, it would be in their best interest to wait for assurance one way or the other from the prosecutor, and not jump the gun on it.

From my perspective, either way the university is covering their asses. I think it comes down to her recanting (not assurance from the prosecutor) that made them send out the texts.

[aranarose]

as I just told philosophia in pm, I have been falsely accused of both sexual harassment and rape. I was fortunate enough for the truth to have come out before I faced any sort of consequences. I take topics like this very seriously. However based on my experiences I still assume based on evidence, and would be the first up in arms if the evidence pointed the other way. Rape is a very serious issue and accusations should not be thrown around lightly.

Furthermore there are many women out there, many of whom call themselves feminists who have the attitude I perceived in this thread, that if there is an accusation it must be true because all men are evil...and because of that I may have come across with an even stronger bias. I personally try to go with the evidence available and do not try to find a "what if" scenario and can not understand why others do. I do realize that there are women out there that have been raped and back down for many reasons. I think we should focus more on empowering them to come out with the truth than trying to find rape in every accusation made.

I really do think the laws should be changed and this woman should face the kind of sentences the young men she accused were facing.

With all of that said I would like to apologize to everyone for many of my statements. It would be a lie if I said I was not hurt, upset, saddened and even have a temporary loss of respect for people in this thread. However it is something that will pass, and I will get over...while I may not be happy over this debate, I don't want anyone to think this is something that I will carry on as a grudge, or that I will feel any different after this is over.

My [ex] Husband was falsely accused of sexual harassment, and lost his job over it. She never recanted, and he had no clue what he did until two years later when she applied for work at the company he had gone to. He found out the sexual harassment was him pointing at a large piece of fuzz on the shoulder of her shirt...

[Lunacie]

as I just told philosophia in pm, I have been falsely accused of both sexual harassment and rape. I was fortunate enough for the truth to have come out before I faced any sort of consequences. I take topics like this very seriously. However based on my experiences I still assume based on evidence, and would be the first up in arms if the evidence pointed the other way. Rape is a very serious issue and accusations should not be thrown around lightly.

Furthermore there are many women out there, many of whom call themselves feminists who have the attitude I perceived in this thread, that if there is an accusation it must be true because all men are evil...and because of that I may have come across with an even stronger bias. I personally try to go with the evidence available and do not try to find a "what if" scenario and can not understand why others do. I do realize that there are women out there that have been raped and back down for many reasons. I think we should focus more on empowering them to come out with the truth than trying to find rape in every accusation made.

I really do think the laws should be changed and this woman should face the kind of sentences the young men she accused were facing.

With all of that said I would like to apologize to everyone for many of my statements. It would be a lie if I said I was not hurt, upset, saddened and even have a temporary loss of respect for people in this thread. However it is something that will pass, and I will get over...while I may not be happy over this debate, I don't want anyone to think this is something that I will carry on as a grudge, or that I will feel any different after this is over.

Definately different perspectives of the same posts. Perspective is often colored by personal experiences. Because of your experiences it seemed to you that some posters were leaning over backwards to believe the young woman. Because of my experiences (incest and one instance of rape) I felt you over-reacted over the possibility that the girl had lied. Some of us still feel unconvinced that the "proof" is completely valid, but in probability she was lying and the young men were telling the truth.

As has been pointed out, the men who are falsely accused are not the only victims. Every woman who has been raped in fact will face doubt because of these false accusations that were made.

I was still curious about the balance between false accusations of rape and the number of rapes where no one was caught or convicted. I'll admit I didn't look far for information, I'm about ready to crash, but here's what I did find.


In a study that span nine years, sociologist Eugene J. Kanin’s findings were that in the United States, 41% of rape allegations are false. Kanin discovered that most of the false accusers were motivated by a need for an alibi or seeking revenge. from here (http://abuse.suite101.com/article.cfm/false_allegations)



... only a small fraction of men who have forced a woman to submit to a sexual act against her will are punished.
... although 51.3% of all reported rapes were cleared by arrest ...
... only about half of those arrested were convicted...
... only 88% of those convicted were sentenced to prison...
... fewer than 1 in 4 accused rapists can expect to serve a prison sentence
... the rest go free...

If unreported rapes are added in to the equation, a mere 1 in 20 (or fewer) rapes lead to a rapist being sentenced. For most sexual predators in America, rape is a free ride ...
from here (http://books.google.com/books?id=SydYjA7nB5YC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=statistics+for+rapes+where+no+one+is+arrested+or+convicted&source=bl&ots=elpc2qRi_E&sig=pR0DyAjmBKre9EqfDUlhBt_hVGw&hl=en&ei=cFS0SraFI4XmM4uj4NoO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=statistics%20for%20rapes%20where%20no%20one%20is%20arrested%20or%20convicted&f=false)

So, about 40% of rape allegations seem to be falsely made, and while 50% of rape allegations lead to an arrest, only 25% lead to a conviction, and even fewer than that lead to an actual prison sentence being filled.

It's a raw deal either way, but it seems that women still come up on the short end of the equation, statistically.

[aranarose]

False accusations do more harm for the real victims of rape than anything. Because it gives the real rapists an avenue to plant doubt in juror's minds that they too were falsely accused.

[Nicholas]

*wiggles nose*

I wish this thread would just be closed... I see it going absolutely no where.

[memnoch]

Definately different perspectives of the same posts. Perspective is often colored by personal experiences. Because of your experiences it seemed to you that some posters were leaning over backwards to believe the young woman. Because of my experiences (incest and one instance of rape) I felt you over-reacted over the possibility that the girl had lied. Some of us still feel unconvinced that the "proof" is completely valid, but in probability she was lying and the young men were telling the truth.

As has been pointed out, the men who are falsely accused are not the only victims. Every woman who has been raped in fact will face doubt because of these false accusations that were made.

I was still curious about the balance between false accusations of rape and the number of rapes where no one was caught or convicted. I'll admit I didn't look far for information, I'm about ready to crash, but here's what I did find.

from here (http://abuse.suite101.com/article.cfm/false_allegations)

from here (http://books.google.com/books?id=SydYjA7nB5YC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=statistics+for+rapes+where+no+one+is+arrested+or+convicted&source=bl&ots=elpc2qRi_E&sig=pR0DyAjmBKre9EqfDUlhBt_hVGw&hl=en&ei=cFS0SraFI4XmM4uj4NoO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#v=onepage&q=statistics%20for%20rapes%20where%20no%20one%20is%20arrested%20or%20convicted&f=false)

So, about 40% of rape allegations seem to be falsely made, and while 50% of rape allegations lead to an arrest, only 25% lead to a conviction, and even fewer than that lead to an actual prison sentence being filled.

It's a raw deal either way, but it seems that women still come up on the short end of the equation, statistically.

I could twist those numbers too...41% are falsely accused while only 25% were found guilty.

The point isn't over who gets screwed more (no pun intended) it is about right and wrong...yes, rape is wrong and I would be the first to complain about these guys needing to die if the evidence pointed to them doing it, however your bias is allowing you to admit the truth, yet you are still holding back some reserve because of your experiences. Which was my point earlier, how would you react if after announced video evidence and admittance of guilt I said it looks like so and so raped someone, but we don't know the "proof" is valid?

[memnoch]

False accusations do more harm for the real victims of rape than anything. Because it gives the real rapists an avenue to plant doubt in juror's minds that they too were falsely accused.

exactly, and by defending false accusations after everything has been revealed is only increasing the damage.

[TuathaSidhe]

exactly, and by defending false accusations after everything has been revealed is only increasing the damage.

Just wondering if you can quote the people who defended her after all the information was out? Not the first part of the thread where all the information wasnt out, but after all the information was out.

[Lunar Raven]

how would you react if after announced video evidence and admittance of guilt I said it looks like so and so raped someone, but we don't know the "proof" is valid?

To be fair though, most of us said there was little proof when there really was little proof. The first post didn't say anything about the video evidence. We reacted to that post. You posted a link about the video once the thread was already several pages in. Before that, all we had was an article stating she recanted her statement...nothing else.

[TuathaSidhe]

The way I see it, if people were going to defend her then they would be condeming the boys, I dont see that happening.

When we just had one little thing to go by, people asked for more evidence before minds were made up..some put in why someone would lie or take back their statment.

That, doesnt mean one is defending her.

Stating that there are reasons why some women take back what they say isnt saying that its the case with her. There actually ARE women who take back statements for what they consider good reasons. (Fear, pressure, etc etc)

After more information was pointed out, I seen people ask why evidence wasnt brought forth sooner than it was....that, is still not defending her.

Mem, you are quick to judge people on this issue of "defending" her, but I think its very possible that from your past history you might be looking at it differently. And that it doesnt matter what anyone says, your gonna only see it from your view. <shrugs>

Just how it seems from the outside looking in.

[Lunacie]

I could twist those numbers too...41% are falsely accused while only 25% were found guilty.

The point isn't over who gets screwed more (no pun intended) it is about right and wrong...yes, rape is wrong and I would be the first to complain about these guys needing to die if the evidence pointed to them doing it, however your bias is allowing you to admit the truth, yet you are still holding back some reserve because of your experiences. Which was my point earlier, how would you react if after announced video evidence and admittance of guilt I said it looks like so and so raped someone, but we don't know the "proof" is valid?

Are you accusing me of twisting the numbers?

Seriously?

Yes, my point was our experiences do indeed color our perspective. We ALL do that to some degree, including you.

How would I react if I thought someone was actually guilty of rape (or any criminal offense) but it wasn't clear that the proof was valid enough to lead to a conviction?

Well, I might say that it seems valid to me but in the end it will be up to a court of law to decide if that evidence meets the burden of proof. I don't usually get upset at other posters for having an opinion, whether I think it's valid or not. I may point out the flaws that I see in their thinking, but if they refuse to see any flaws then I generally agree to disagree.

[ShadowcatX]

hug, I'll take it one step further, I hope this slut does get gang raped by 5 men so she thinks serious accusations are a laughing matter...furthermore it would allow several people here to be right and I could agree with them so they would just drop it.

I don't agree with the people who say that she likely was raped despite evidence and admissions to the contrary, nor do I support the filing of false police reports, especially in a matter as serious, and as passionate, as rape.

However, it will be a cold day in hell before I ever say "That person deserves to be raped." She may deserve to be sued, maybe to face prison time herself, but not raped.

[TuathaSidhe]

I don't agree with the people who say that she likely was raped despite evidence and admissions to the contrary.

Who said that?

I see people state that it could be a possibility, before more information was put up with the follow up links. Its something that could have happened but I dont see where anyone say that was what happened.

[ShadowcatX]

I object to the word "slut" being used at all. It's a derrogatory slur against women based on something that is not any of your damn business (her sex life).

She made it the world's business when she started talking about it to people who had the power to take away other people's lives. She's not a minor, she knew what she was doing.

Edit: That said, I don't care for the word use either, especially in the title of the thread.

[ShadowcatX]

Who said that?

I see people state that it could be a possibility, before more information was put up with the follow up links. Its something that could have happened but I dont see where anyone say that was what happened.

Hiding behind phrasing and hedging bets don't appeal to me.

[TuathaSidhe]

Hiding behind phrasing and hedging bets don't appeal to me.

How is it that though?

Pointing out why some women do take back what they said isnt that imo, it does happen and its not always just a lie.

I still didnt see anyone say this is what she did. Just that it was a possibility, and given the information at the time it very much was a possibility. As were lots of other things.

I am honestly trying to see where you and mem are comming from and I honestly dont.

[memnoch]

How is it that though?

Pointing out why some women do take back what they said isnt that imo, it does happen and its not always just a lie.

I still didnt see anyone say this is what she did. Just that it was a possibility, and given the information at the time it very much was a possibility. As were lots of other things.

I am honestly trying to see where you and mem are comming from and I honestly dont.

Okay, hypothetical for you. Lets say there is a story about a man beating his wife to death. He admits to it, there is videotaped evidence. If I come in and say, we don't know that is what happened, maybe she fell down the stairs, or maybe she beat herself up, maybe she had multiple personalities and another personality did it...maybe she was cheating and it was her lover who did it, would you not at that point say I am defending the guy in so much as I am trying to find alternate explanations (all of which have happened) as to why it may not have been him...even if I disguise it by not directly referencing to the case at hand (which would be derailing a topic).

There are well over a dozen posts after all evidence, the D.A. stating she lied, the videotape, so on, so forth, that continue to throw doubt on this situation. Quite simply it is Occam's Razor, the simpler of the theories is the correct one.

Again, throw in any situation that was not rape, or any situation where theories defend the rapist when guilt is obvious and whoever posted those would have their ideas thrashed to pieces, however it seems that for some reason, whether it be the topic, the gender of the people posting, some phenomenon, or a mix of the above, it is looked at as perfectly logical here.

[Philosophia]

Okay, hypothetical for you. Lets say there is a story about a man beating his wife to death. He admits to it, there is videotaped evidence. If I come in and say, we don't know that is what happened, maybe she fell down the stairs, or maybe she beat herself up, maybe she had multiple personalities and another personality did it...maybe she was cheating and it was her lover who did it, would you not at that point say I am defending the guy in so much as I am trying to find alternate explanations (all of which have happened) as to why it may not have been him...even if I disguise it by not directly referencing to the case at hand (which would be derailing a topic).

There are well over a dozen posts after all evidence, the D.A. stating she lied, the videotape, so on, so forth, that continue to throw doubt on this situation. Quite simply it is Occam's Razor, the simpler of the theories is the correct one.

Again, throw in any situation that was not rape, or any situation where theories defend the rapist when guilt is obvious and whoever posted those would have their ideas thrashed to pieces, however it seems that for some reason, whether it be the topic, the gender of the people posting, some phenomenon, or a mix of the above, it is looked at as perfectly logical here.

As a person who doubted the videotape when it was first mentioned and about the DA, I stand by my reasoning. Occam's Razor is acceptable but not always applicable.

[memnoch]

As a person who doubted the videotape when it was first mentioned and about the DA, I stand by my reasoning.

I understand, just trying to explain to ladycanine where I am coming from on this.

[Anthony41671]

:dead:

That's my opinion...and I'm sticking to it! :bigredgri

[memnoch]

:dead:

That's my opinion...and I'm sticking to it! :bigredgri

we each have our own fetishes :toofless:

[Philosophia]

I understand, just trying to explain to ladycanine where I am coming from on this.

Oh, okay. :thumbsup:

[TuathaSidhe]

I understand where you are comming from in a gerneral way, I guess my problem is that I just done see it in this thread and im trying to see it from both sides.

I agree that when all the facts are put up she shouldnt be defended and I guess I just dont see where she has been. To me going off topic is just that, going off topic...nothing to do with the thread so its not really defending her.

I dunno, perhaps its my ability to simplify overanalyzing o.O

meh, ah well.

[TuathaSidhe]

:dead:

That's my opinion...and I'm sticking to it! :bigredgri

I always feel so sorry for that poor horse.

[Anthony41671]

I always feel so sorry for that poor horse.

Me too...I even had to argue with myself to even use it...myself won though!

[TuathaSidhe]

Me too...I even had to argue with myself to even use it...myself won though!


Yay for winning!......against, yourself.....erm, yeah.

[Anthony41671]

Yay for winning!......against, yourself.....erm, yeah.

Everyone needs to be able to win at some point! LOL :boing:

[Lunacie]

Okay, hypothetical for you. Lets say there is a story about a man beating his wife to death. He admits to it, there is videotaped evidence. If I come in and say, we don't know that is what happened, maybe she fell down the stairs, or maybe she beat herself up, maybe she had multiple personalities and another personality did it...maybe she was cheating and it was her lover who did it, would you not at that point say I am defending the guy in so much as I am trying to find alternate explanations (all of which have happened) as to why it may not have been him...even if I disguise it by not directly referencing to the case at hand (which would be derailing a topic).

There are well over a dozen posts after all evidence, the D.A. stating she lied, the videotape, so on, so forth, that continue to throw doubt on this situation. Quite simply it is Occam's Razor, the simpler of the theories is the correct one.

Again, throw in any situation that was not rape, or any situation where theories defend the rapist when guilt is obvious and whoever posted those would have their ideas thrashed to pieces, however it seems that for some reason, whether it be the topic, the gender of the people posting, some phenomenon, or a mix of the above, it is looked at as perfectly logical here.

Many times someone will come to a thread after 30 or 40 responses have been posted, but want to respond to something in the first 20 posts, and therefore have not yet read what has been added in the later posts to clarify the matter.

I've seen that happen in this thread too. Some of the responses that came after the information about the video had been posted probably hadn't read about the video yet.

Some people only read the OP and respond, then if they return later they simply scan to see if anyone has responded to their own post without reading many of the other responses.

I didn't see where anyone was giving the young woman a free pass and automatically condemning the group of young men, only making suggestions based on what other women have done after being actually raped.

I don't think any of the other posters here rushed to judgment. As it turns out you were apparently right, but it could have gone either way before the video proof was presented.