Jedi thrown out of store for wearing hood

[memnoch]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6204199/Jedi-ejected-from-Tesco-for-wearing-hood.html

[LilithMorgana]

Well, the man wasn't hurting anybody wearing his hood in public. So, I don't see the problem. I mean, you see people in these zip up sweat shirts wearing their hoods and nobody says anything to them.

[Nox_Mortus]

a lot of stores require you to remove anything that covers your face while on premises, and it is well within their rights to do so.

However, if they allow religious exceptions for Muslims (or whoevere else) then they should allow religious exceptions for everyone.

[MeriBast]

okay im sorry. i get the guys point of the religious persecution but im sorry as a SW fan there were pleanty of jedi in the stories who walked around w/o a hood on in public places. that is not a requiremnt to be a jedi. i think the guy just wants to make head lines for his faith.

[Lunacie]

a lot of stores require you to remove anything that covers your face while on premises, and it is well within their rights to do so.

However, if they allow religious exceptions for Muslims (or whoevere else) then they should allow religious exceptions for everyone.

There are rules, or doctrine, within the Muslim faith that requires the covering of the head/face. It seems there are no such rules or doctrine for the Jedi faith. http://www.jedichurch.org/jedi-doctrine.html

[Nox_Mortus]

the article claims there are...

[Caitlin.ann]

I don't know if I'm simply insensitive, but I can't bring myself to take this seriously.

[Æon Flux]

okay im sorry. i get the guys point of the religious persecution but im sorry as a SW fan there were pleanty of jedi in the stories who walked around w/o a hood on in public places. that is not a requiremnt to be a jedi. i think the guy just wants to make head lines for his faith.


There are rules, or doctrine, within the Muslim faith that requires the covering of the head/face. It seems there are no such rules or doctrine for the Jedi faith. http://www.jedichurch.org/jedi-doctrine.html

Seeing as how I've known Muslims who walk without veils in public and Muslims who chose to wear the veil there shouldn't be any difference. All believes have different denominations, but do we require all Muslim women to wear the veil in order for us to view them as Muslim? Just because we've seen other Muslims without a veil, do we claim the ones who do still wear it shouldn't?

If I can remember correctly (and it is very likely that I am completely off on this point), Obi Wan in the first movie (of the original trilogy) rarely walked around without his hood unless:
1. He was in the presence of another Jedi
2. He was fighting

When Luke was acting as an official member of the Jedi, he usually wore a hood if practical or possible. It's sort of like the new testament versus the old testament for me.

The reason for not allowing Jedi's wear hoods in the store "If Jedi walk around our stores with their hoods on, they’ll miss lots of special offers." is definitely not referring to a good enough reason.
Religion is religion, no matter what denomination you are.

Believes are believes, you want to allow one denomination, you have to allow them all. Religious reasons that do not hurt someone else is just as valid regardless of religion or denomination.

[Lunacie]

the article claims there are...

The author of the article says that the young man in question 'claims' there are such requirements. The link I provided seems to be the official webpage of the Jedi religion. Both, or neither may be right, but tend to think the webpage rather than the young man.

This page (http://www.jedi-church.co.uk/) shows people who are apparently members wearing neither the robe nor the hood.

My best guess: either the young man was taught bad information, or he's just looking to grind an axe and this is a handy tool for him.

[Æon Flux]

The author of the article says that the young man in question 'claims' there are such requirements. The link I provided seems to be the official webpage of the Jedi religion. Both, or neither may be right, but tend to think the webpage rather than the young man.

This page (http://www.jedi-church.co.uk/) shows people who are apparently members wearing neither the robe nor the hood.

My best guess: either the young man was taught bad information, or he's just looking to grind an axe and this is a handy tool for him.

Or he's of a different denomination.

[Lunacie]

Seeing as how I've known Muslims who walk without veils in public and Muslims who chose to wear the veil there shouldn't be any difference. All believes have different denominations, but do we require all Muslim women to wear the veil in order for us to view them as Muslim? Just because we've seen other Muslims without a veil, do we claim the ones who do still wear it shouldn't?

If I can remember correctly (and it is very likely that I am completely off on this point), Obi Wan in the first movie (of the original trilogy) rarely walked around without his hood unless:
1. He was in the presence of another Jedi
2. He was fighting

When Luke was acting as an official member of the Jedi, he usually wore a hood if practical or possible. It's sort of like the new testament versus the old testament for me.

The reason for not allowing Jedi's wear hoods in the store "If Jedi walk around our stores with their hoods on, they’ll miss lots of special offers." is definitely not referring to a good enough reason.
Religion is religion, no matter what denomination you are.

Believes are believes, you want to allow one denomination, you have to allow them all. Religious reasons that do not hurt someone else is just as valid regardless of religion or denomination.

I don't think that's what the store was giving as the reason for banning hoods inside the store - I suspect it's more like those stores who ban wearing ski masks once you're inside the store. Anything that prevents being able to identify the person indicates the person may be intending to do something they wouldn't want to be identified for. I think the comment about missing out on the specials may have been made "tongue-in-cheek."

I hadn't thought about having different denominations of Jedi already since it's such a new belief path. Possible I suppose.

[Nox_Mortus]

The author of the article says that the young man in question 'claims' there are such requirements. The link I provided seems to be the official webpage of the Jedi religion. Both, or neither may be right, but tend to think the webpage rather than the young man.

This page (http://www.jedi-church.co.uk/) shows people who are apparently members wearing neither the robe nor the hood.

My best guess: either the young man was taught bad information, or he's just looking to grind an axe and this is a handy tool for him.

or there are seperate groups following said religion that have varying beliefs and practices, considering that the Jedi Religion thing is a pretty popular idea, it wouldn't be all that surprising, citing one website as an ultimate authority on Jediism is sort of like citing the Pope as the sole authority on Christianity.

[Æon Flux]

I don't know if I'm simply insensitive, but I can't bring myself to take this seriously.

I don't know why you wouldn't take it serious. It's just as serious as a Wiccan/Pagan/Witchcraft orientated person claiming religious reasons to wear a pentacle.
Unless you don't take those things serious either, in which case, no, you're not insensitive. Definitely no harm and no foul.

[Caitlin.ann]

I don't know why you wouldn't take it serious. It's just as serious as a Wiccan/Pagan/Witchcraft orientated person claiming religious reasons to wear a pentacle.
Unless you don't take those things serious either, in which case, no, you're not insensitive. Definitely no harm and no foul.

I don't have to if I don't want to. Just sharing my honest opinion. I'm not debating anything. :)

[Philosophia]

I don't know if I'm simply insensitive, but I can't bring myself to take this seriously.

Same here. The difference between this and Muslim veil wearing has to do whether wearing a "hoodie" is a legally recognized religious icon. If so, than he was discriminated against. But if it isn't, than I can't say with certainty that he was.

[Æon Flux]

I don't think that's what the store was giving as the reason for banning hoods inside the store - I suspect it's more like those stores who ban wearing ski masks once you're inside the store. Anything that prevents being able to identify the person indicates the person may be intending to do something they wouldn't want to be identified for. I think the comment about missing out on the specials may have been made "tongue-in-cheek."


By that standard they shouldn't allow veils, caps, hats, hoods up from jumpers... anything like that. I think consistency is in order. But that's just me. :)

(also I think it's poor taste to make jokes about a persons religion in that sense, giving missed prices as a reason top not allow hoods is in poor taste unless they joke accordingly about other religions as well. Then again... I'm all about consistency in that sense. :bigredgri

[Caitlin.ann]

Same here. The difference between this and Muslim veil wearing has to do whether wearing a "hoodie" is a legally recognized religious icon. If so, than he was discriminated against. But if it isn't, than I can't say with certainty that he was.

Agreed. A lot of people don't recognize Jedi as a religion and I'm sure many more don't know the "ins and outs" of it. I personally know zilch about Jedi, however I do realize that people are going to recognize the Hijab and headcoverings of Islam, however Jedi is a less known and more foreign concept to most people. They may not have taken him seriously or realized that Jedi is indeed a religion. In any case its a private business and they can refuse service to whoever they want.

[Nox_Mortus]

Same here. The difference between this and Muslim veil wearing has to do whether wearing a "hoodie" is a legally recognized religious icon. If so, than he was discriminated against. But if it isn't, than I can't say with certainty that he was.

He was being descriminated against whether the hood (or his religion in general) is legally recognized or not, legal recognition is only an issue if he plans to sue.

[Philosophia]

He was being descriminated against whether the hood (or his religion in general) is legally recognized or not, legal recognition is only an issue if he plans to sue.

In your opinion, he was being discriminated against. I still haven't formed an opinion yet but I'm leaning to non-discrimination. Following this logic of discrimination, I should be able to go sky clad through a store and not be kicked out because my religion says I can.

[brymble]

Or he's of a different denomination.

Um, how many denominations of Jedi are there?

[Æon Flux]

Agreed. A lot of people don't recognize Jedi as a religion and I'm sure many more don't know the "ins and outs" of it. I personally know zilch about Jedi, however I do realize that people are going to recognize the Hijab and headcoverings of Islam, however Jedi is a less known and more foreign concept to most people. They may not have taken him seriously or realized that Jedi is indeed a religion. In any case its a private business and they can refuse service to whoever they want.

The difference between the JEDI census in Australia in 2001(population THIS YEAR 21,885,016) was 70, 000 people. Populations of Wiccans in America 2001 was: 134,000 adults ( THIS years population 307,418,000).

When did we start going by popularity when deciding what can and can not be a religion? And what can and cannot be acceptable according to widespread knowledge regarding denominations? Just a question...

[Lunacie]

By that standard they shouldn't allow veils, caps, hats, hoods up from jumpers... anything like that. I think consistency is in order. But that's just me. :)

(also I think it's poor taste to make jokes about a persons religion in that sense, giving missed prices as a reason top not allow hoods is in poor taste unless they joke accordingly about other religions as well. Then again... I'm all about consistency in that sense. :bigredgri

All of those except the veil are incomplete cover for the face, and I think that was one of the main issues with not wanting to agree to allow veils - facial recognition. I think changes in hair style, hair color, facial hair can change a person's look just as much as hiding under a mask of some kind.

I wonder if the young man was acting in some manner that made the staff of the store suspicious, or something like that? The hooded cloak would have drawn attention in the first place, but would that have been enough to draw a request to let the hood hang down his back if he hadn't been acting strangely? Just wondering.

[Æon Flux]

Um, how many denominations of Jedi are there?

I wouldn't know... Just as I don't know how many denominations of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Pastafarianism and Wicca there are.
Do you?

[Nox_Mortus]

In your opinion, he was being discriminated against. I still haven't formed an opinion yet but I'm leaning to non-discrimination. Following this logic of discrimination, I should be able to go sky clad through a store and not be kicked out because my religion says I can.

Well that boils down to being reasonable, I would say the hood is clearly reasonable if they allow Muslims to wear Hijabs.

[Philosophia]

Well that boils down to being reasonable, I would say the hood is clearly reasonable if they allow Muslims to wear Hijabs.

Yes, but the hood is common clothing item and not a recognized religious icon. It's different to Muslims wearing Hijabs.

[Caitlin.ann]

The difference between the JEDI census in Australia in 2001(population THIS YEAR 21,885,016) was 70, 000 people. Populations of Wiccans in America 2001 was: 134,000 adults ( THIS years population 307,418,000).

When did we start going by popularity when deciding what can and can not be a religion? And what can and cannot be acceptable according to widespread knowledge regarding denominations? Just a question...

Has nothing to do with popularity at all, only that most people may not know about it or know to take it seriously. No one said popularity decides what is and is not a religion, but people can't recognize something they don't know about.

[Nox_Mortus]

Yes, but the hood is common clothing item and not a recognized religious icon. It's different to Muslims wearing Hijabs.

not if it's part of some sort of robe that's not normally worn in public. Recognized or not it's still a religious icon to people who follow that particular sect of that religion, which means that forcing them to remove it while not doing the same to members of other religions is clearly discrimination.

[Philosophia]

not if it's part of some sort of robe that's not normally worn in public. Recognized or not it's still a religious icon to people who follow that particular sect of that religion, which means that forcing them to remove it while not doing the same to members of other religions is clearly discrimination.

Was he wearing a robe? Or was he wearing a normal hooded jacket? Whether you think it's discrimination or not is your opinion. Is a normal hood a recognized icon within that particular sect of Jedism? We've only got his word that it is.

[Caitlin.ann]

It seems as if some believe religious discrimination was intended of which there is no evidence. We have no idea how this guy was acting, he could have been acting like a total twit and so the store employees did not take him seriously. I think intent is very important here.

[Philosophia]

It seems as if some believe religious discrimination was intended of which there is no evidence. We have no idea how this guy was acting, he could have been acting like a total twit and so the store employees did not take him seriously. I think intent is very important here.

:uhhuhuh: Yep, we don't know the full story and I'm loathed to call this religious discrimination without all the evidence.

[Nox_Mortus]

It seems as if some believe religious discrimination was intended of which there is no evidence. We have no idea how this guy was acting, he could have been acting like a total twit and so the store employees did not take him seriously. I think intent is very important here.

That's pretty subjective, to a lot of people just saying you're a Jedi is acting like a total twit. Whether or not they took him seriously is irrelevant if he was really following his religious beliefs.

[Caitlin.ann]

That's pretty subjective, to a lot of people just saying you're a Jedi is acting like a total twit. Whether or not they took him seriously is irrelevant if he was really following his religious beliefs.

It is relevant if you're trying to prove intentional religious discrimination.

[Infinite Grey]

Interesting that people are reluctant to deem this as serious; I mean, Jedism is not most idiotic or silly than any other religion... a might more sensible than many others. -sniff- the rancid stench of hypocrisy is hanging heavy.

[Nox_Mortus]

It is relevant if you're trying to prove intentional religious discrimination.

not really, that's sort of like saying giving Wiccans crap for wearing pentacles isn't discrimination as long as the person doing it just doesn't take the person seriously.

[Philosophia]

Interesting that people are reluctant to deem this as serious; I mean, Jedism is not most idiotic or silly than any other religion... a might more sensible than many others. -sniff- the rancid stench of hypocrisy is hanging heavy.

Hypocrisy? Really? I don't think so. There are many reasons as to why this may not be deemed as serious, from if it is a recognized religious icon (if a normal hoodie a recognized religious symbol in the Jedism religion?) to the Jedi himself.

[Infinite Grey]

not really, that's sort of like saying giving Wiccans crap for wearing pentacles isn't discrimination as long as the person doing it just doesn't take the person seriously.

Or are ignorant of the religion.

[Caitlin.ann]

not really, that's sort of like saying giving Wiccans crap for wearing pentacles isn't discrimination as long as the person doing it just doesn't take the person seriously.

Thats not what I'm saying. Many people don't know that Jedi is a religion, let alone a legally recognized one. With only 500,000 followers around the globe its that much more obscure. I think its pretty difficult to prove intentional religious discrimination when the store owner/employees may not even know Jedi as a religion existed at the time of the incident. Additionally he was asked to remove his hood over security concerns. Security concerns does not equate to religious discrimination. Depending on what the Muslim woman was wearing it the store could have deemed her head covering a lesser risk to security than a big, flowing hoodie. Additionally its a private store and he is a consumer..he can choose to go to the seven eleven if he'd rather.

I haven't seen enough evidence to scream 'religious discrimination' yet and like Philosophia I am loathe to call it such until more evidence is presented.

[Æon Flux]

All of those except the veil are incomplete cover for the face, and I think that was one of the main issues with not wanting to agree to allow veils - facial recognition. I think changes in hair style, hair color, facial hair can change a person's look just as much as hiding under a mask of some kind.

I wonder if the young man was acting in some manner that made the staff of the store suspicious, or something like that? The hooded cloak would have drawn attention in the first place, but would that have been enough to draw a request to let the hood hang down his back if he hadn't been acting strangely? Just wondering.

1. hooded jacket or jumper and a cap would be just as incomplete a cover for a face as a Jedi hood, IMOHO

2. Could be the guy was acting weird, could be the guy was geeky, could be the guy was acting perfectly normal


Has nothing to do with popularity at all, only that most people may not know about it or know to take it seriously. No one said popularity decides what is and is not a religion, but people can't recognize something they don't know about.

No different than Christianity, Wicca, Rastafarianism, Judaism or Islam... some people might not recognise all the quirks and details, that does not mean it should be overlooked and ignored because some people might not research religion. I went to a school where crosses, pirate regalia, pentacles, hijab and jedi robes were equally acceptable. (this was during the nine eleven attacks) Maybe it's just because I come from a place and circle of people where all religions is equal and you all learn from each other that I think this way... might be so... but until I'm proven wrong I will respect peoples religion equally to others.


It seems as if some believe religious discrimination was intended of which there is no evidence. We have no idea how this guy was acting, he could have been acting like a total twit and so the store employees did not take him seriously. I think intent is very important here.

Same as we have no idea how a person dressed as a monk, nun or a Muslim would act if they were up to no good, what would be different with this guy?
If he was planning to steal he most likely wouldn't have dragged attention to himself. Unless they found something hidden underneath his hood, which probably would have showed up in the article.


Was he wearing a robe? Or was he wearing a normal hooded jacket? Whether you think it's discrimination or not is your opinion. Is a normal hood a recognized icon within that particular sect of Jedism? We've only got his word that it is.

Was he or wasn't he, who knows. Is a Pastafarian who doesn't have the money to but a proper Pirate regalia not entitled to have the same respect as a Pastafarian who can buy a proper Pirate regalia? Are we going to start to argue the purity of metal in a Christian cross? I don't entirely see the difference... as long as he is, in fact, a Jedi. There shouldn't be any discrimination, IMOHO

[Nox_Mortus]

Thats not what I'm saying. Many people don't know that Jedi is a religion, let alone a legally recognized one. With only 500,000 followers around the globe its that much more obscure. I think its pretty difficult to prove intentional religious discrimination when the store owner/employees may not even know Jedi as a religion existed at the time of the incident. Additionally he was asked to remove his hood over security concerns. Security concerns does not equate to religious discrimination. Depending on what the Muslim woman was wearing it the store could have deemed her head covering a lesser risk to security than a big, flowing hoodie. Additionally its a private store and he is a consumer..he can choose to go to the seven eleven if he'd rather.

I haven't seen enough evidence to scream 'religious discrimination' yet and like Philosophia I am loathe to call it such until more evidence is presented.

A lot of people don't know that witchcraft is a recognized religion either, but this sort of thing, intentional or not, is still completely unacceptable.

[Philosophia]

Was he or wasn't he, who knows. Is a Pastafarian who doesn't have the money to but a proper Pirate regalia not entitled to have the same respect as a Pastafarian who can buy a proper Pirate regalia? Are we going to start to argue the purity of metal in a Christian cross? I don't entirely see the difference... as long as he is, in fact, a Jedi. There shouldn't be any discrimination, IMOHO

It's not about wearing proper clothing of his religion. It's about recognizing if a normal hood on a jacket can be classed as a religious icon.

[Infinite Grey]

Hypocrisy? Really? I don't think so. There are many reasons as to why this may not be deemed as serious, from if it is a recognized religious icon (if a normal hoodie a recognized religious symbol in the Jedism religion?) to the Jedi himself.

Is a plastic pentagram a recognized religious symbol in the Wiccan religion? Is a tattooed of a cross a recognized religious symbol in the Christian religion?

Jedism has been around for a while now, there are few people how would not recognized the outfit.

What we here is a case of people finding something silly and not giving it due respect as a result... perhaps I should stop taking other religions serious.

[Caitlin.ann]

Regardless the store employee(s) felt he posed a security risk and asked him to remove his hood, when he did not comply they asked him to leave. The store is well within its rights to do so, just as he is welcome not to shop there anymore.

[Philosophia]

Is a plastic pentagram a recognized religious symbol in the Wiccan religion? Yes.


Is a tattooed of a cross a recognized religious symbol in the Christian religion? Yes.


Jedism has been around for a while now, there are few people how would not recognized the outfit.

From what I can understand, this was normal jacket with hood.


What we here is a case of people finding something silly and not giving it due respect as a result... perhaps I should stop taking other religions serious.

Um, no. I don't have an issue with Jedism nor do I find it silly. How did you get that from my posts?

[Caitlin.ann]

But store bosses say the no hood policy is clearly advertised as a policy to cut down on shoplifting.

Link (http://www.northwaleschronicle.co.uk/news/78875/no-return-of-the-jedi-at-bangor-tesco-store-after-hood-row.aspx)

[Nox_Mortus]

Regardless the store employee(s) felt he posed a security risk and asked him to remove his hood, when he did not comply they asked him to leave. The store is well within its rights to do so, just as he is welcome not to shop there anymore.

They probably are within thier rights to do that (religious protection laws on that sort of thing very, I have no idea how it works in the UK) however that doesn't mean it isn't descrimination if they allow people of other faiths to cover thier faces for religious reasons.

[Infinite Grey]

Yes.
Yes.
From what I can understand, this was normal jacket with hood.
Um, no. I don't have an issue with Jedism nor do I find it silly. How did you get that from my posts?

I wasn't singling you out specifically, I was actually in both posts making general statements. But what I said is still valid; if the Hindu can keep his turban thingy on, a Jedi should be able to keep his hood on.

[Æon Flux]

Link (http://www.northwaleschronicle.co.uk/news/78875/no-return-of-the-jedi-at-bangor-tesco-store-after-hood-row.aspx)

If that is the hood in question it COULDN'T cover his face. What's the problem? It cover no more than a Muslim womans veil wood, most likely less... we're back to arguing seriousness of the religion and materials available.
No hood for the Jedi, no veil for the Muslim IMOHO.. if shoplifting is the reason, or are you saying Jedi's are more likely to shoplift than Muslims?

ETA (from the link) : “It was absolutely unacceptable since there were other persons shopping in hooded garments with no question of religion from the store staff.”

[Caitlin.ann]

If that is the hood in question it COULDN'T cover his face. What's the problem? It cover no more than a Muslim womans veil wood, most likely less... we're back to arguing seriousness of the religion and materials available.
No hood for the Jedi, no veil for the Muslim IMOHO.. if shoplifting is the reason, or are you saying Jedi's are more likely to shoplift than Muslims?

Don't know and don't care..not my rules and I didn't say I agree. However when a company sets a policy regarding hoods and people feel as if they are somehow superior and don't have to adhere to them then the company is well within its rights to ask them to leave, especially if they feel their security is at risk.

[aranarose]

All of those except the veil are incomplete cover for the face, and I think that was one of the main issues with not wanting to agree to allow veils - facial recognition. I think changes in hair style, hair color, facial hair can change a person's look just as much as hiding under a mask of some kind.

I wonder if the young man was acting in some manner that made the staff of the store suspicious, or something like that? The hooded cloak would have drawn attention in the first place, but would that have been enough to draw a request to let the hood hang down his back if he hadn't been acting strangely? Just wondering.

I wear glasses and wear my hair long. Take off my glasses, add some makeup, change my hairstyle, and I look like a completely different person.

Most people don't pay enough attention to anyone to be able to positively identify them later on.


Yes, but the hood is common clothing item and not a recognized religious icon. It's different to Muslims wearing Hijabs.


Was he wearing a robe? Or was he wearing a normal hooded jacket? Whether you think it's discrimination or not is your opinion. Is a normal hood a recognized icon within that particular sect of Jedism? We've only got his word that it is.


It's not about wearing proper clothing of his religion. It's about recognizing if a normal hood on a jacket can be classed as a religious icon.

In Muslim countries, the Hijab IS normal clothing. And in a desert culture, it's also practical clothing. As odd as it might seem to us, that clothing helps to cool a person down in intense heat. I have some similar dresses that I wear all summer long. People think I'm crazy, but I feel cooler and more comfortable in those than I would in a dress.

Most religious clothing started as everyday where and later became codified. The same with most religious rules. For example, the Biblical and Islamic prohibitions against pork were originally a safety concern as pork can carry a very dangerous parasite. Codifying them as a religious prohibition makes people more likely to follow it.

All religions start somewhere. Saying that a particular religious icon or piece of clothing is invalid because it's new is ridiculous, because all religious icons and clothing were new at some time or another.

[Caitlin.ann]

In past retail threads I've noticed UK rules are considerably different than US rules. Here none of that would have ever happened because at least where I work we're not allowed to tell customers they can't do something because its against store policy. So with that in mind, my history in retail is considerably different from what retail workers experience in the UK. I know from stories I've heard there normal employees are allowed to run after shoplifters whereas we are not here.

I think the employees were simply trying to follow store policy but of course they can't say anything to the Muslims or other well recognized religions, they probably never even thought he had a religious reason. He looked like a normal guy wearing a jacket with a hood. They probably thought he was a shoplifter and asked him to remove his hoodie, when confronted and he refused to comply they probably thought he was making excuses and so they asked him to leave.

Just a thought.

[Philosophia]

All religions start somewhere. Saying that a particular religious icon or piece of clothing is invalid because it's new is ridiculous, because all religious icons and clothing were new at some time or another.

I never said anything about it being "new". However, even if it starts somewhere, my comment still stands and so do my questions.

[brymble]

Was he or wasn't he, who knows. Is a Pastafarian who doesn't have the money to but a proper Pirate regalia not entitled to have the same respect as a Pastafarian who can buy a proper Pirate regalia?

Too true, too true! It's bad enough that there is discrimination against Jedis who wear sweatshirts instead of robes. Let's not extend the injustice to Pastafarians who are economically deprived of quality Pirate costumes!

[aranarose]

In past retail threads I've noticed UK rules are considerably different than US rules. Here none of that would have ever happened because at least where I work we're not allowed to tell customers they can't do something because its against store policy. So with that in mind, my history in retail is considerably different from what retail workers experience in the UK. I know from stories I've heard there normal employees are allowed to run after shoplifters whereas we are not here.

I think the employees were simply trying to follow store policy but of course they can't say anything to the Muslims or other well recognized religions, they probably never even thought he had a religious reason. He looked like a normal guy wearing a jacket with a hood. They probably thought he was a shoplifter and asked him to remove his hoodie, when confronted and he refused to comply they probably thought he was making excuses and so they asked him to leave.

Just a thought.

In the U.S. everyone is afraid of getting sued.

[Caitlin.ann]

In the U.S. everyone is afraid of getting sued.

I know..lol. In our store if we tell someone to not do something, stop them from leaving the store or try to apprehend them then we will be fired immediately. Indiana is also an "at will" state so we can be fired at any time with or without reason. So..I don't give a damn who steals what its not worth my job.

[aranarose]

I know..lol. In our store if we tell someone to not do something, stop them from leaving the store or try to apprehend them then we will be fired immediately. Indiana is also an "at will" state so we can be fired at any time with or without reason. So..I don't give a damn who steals what its not worth my job.

Target has a major theft problem because of that policy. Employees can and will be fired for trying to stop a shoplifter, and the thieves know that, so go in and steal quite recklessly.

[Caitlin.ann]

Target has a major theft problem because of that policy. Employees can and will be fired for trying to stop a shoplifter, and the thieves know that, so go in and steal quite recklessly.

Yep we've had people pushing thousands of dollars right out our front doors and we can't do a damn thing. They've been brazen enough to push out washers and dryers right past us and out the door.

[Æon Flux]

Too true, too true! It's bad enough that there is discrimination against Jedis who wear sweatshirts instead of robes. Let's not extend the injustice to Pastafarians who are economically deprived of quality Pirate costumes!

1. if you are being facetious, if a home made, off colour Pastafarian pirate outfit is not wrong, along with plastic crosses, plastic pentacles, veils that are not of the right colour/cut and material as well as anything else that is religious but not as high brow... this shouldn't be wrong either.

2. If you are not being facetious, I apologise

[aranarose]

Yep we've had people pushing thousands of dollars right out our front doors and we can't do a damn thing. They've been brazen enough to push out washers and dryers right past us and out the door.

That's just ****ed up. And causes massive price increases and pay decreases.

[Æon Flux]

Yep we've had people pushing thousands of dollars right out our front doors and we can't do a damn thing. They've been brazen enough to push out washers and dryers right past us and out the door.

So... does a lot of these people wear Jedi hoods?/hoodies?/veils/pentacles/pirate regalia?

And is that dependent on:
1.People in general
2. People who obscure their identities with pirate regalia/ jedi hoods/ hoodies/caps/veils
3. The policies of the companies?
(ETA: 4. The country you are in?)


We have have no such problem in Sweden... that I am aware of.

[aranarose]

So... does a lot of these people wear Jedi hoods?/hoodies?/veils/pentacles/pirate regalia?

And is that dependent on:
1.People in general
2. People who obscure their identities with pirate regalia/ jedi hoods/ hoodies/caps/veils
3. The policies of the companies?
(ETA: 4. The country you are in?)


We have have no such problem in Sweden... that I am aware of.

To be honest, I would think that most shoplifters do anything they can NOT to be notices. Which means nothing out of the ordinary, nothing that would draw any attention to them. No hats, no hoods, nothing apparent that would make store works suspicious of them upon first site.

[Æon Flux]

To be honest, I would think that most shoplifters do anything they can NOT to be notices. Which means nothing out of the ordinary, nothing that would draw any attention to them. No hats, no hoods, nothing apparent that would make store works suspicious of them upon first site.

my sentiments exactly. :)

[Phoenix Blue]

The link I provided seems to be the official webpage of the Jedi religion.
I wish Paganism had an official Web page! :)

[Sequoia]

A lot of people worship popular media... at least these guys are being honest about it. :lol:

I mean, from a spiritual standpoint, there is a LOT of spirituality that George Lucas ripped off from Eastern religions for "Jedi" and "The Force" and such... so you've actually got quite a few "valid" beliefs going on within all of it.

That, and someone, somewhere, made up each and every religion. Wicca, contrary to popular belief, is a mish-mosh made-up religion. Just because there are lots of followers doesn't make it any less MAN-MADE and NEW.

Wicca is based on European lore; Jedi is based on a particular grouping of pop-culture lore. You say tomato, I say tomahto. It's the same fruit.

So back to the original topic... I guess that if it is required by the religion to wear a hood, he should have the same rights as any other person wearing something covering their hair or face.

The annoying thing here is that I haven't seen anything that says that you MUST ALWAYS wear a hood if you're a Jedi... and in all of my Star Wars lore (used to be one hell of an obsessed Star Wars fan), I cannot remember such a thing being stated or practiced.

So I think the kid is making a stink for the hell of it, BUT, he has a valid point.

[Phoenix Blue]

So back to the original topic... I guess that if it is required by the religion to wear a hood, he should have the same rights as any other person wearing something covering their hair or face.
Yup. I wonder how a woman would be treated if she went into the same store wearing a hajib?

[Sequoia]

Yup. I wonder how a woman would be treated if she went into the same store wearing a hajib?

Precisely.

[Lunacie]

I wonder if Pagans don't have a hard time wrapping their heads around this because we don't have a "uniform" that we MUST wear for whatever reason. By now, most people understand the reason for Muslim women wearing the hajib or scarf. We understand why the Hassidic Jews wear a skull cap or a hat (although most don't know why they wear the little curls on the side of the face).

It might be helpful to gaining recognition for this guy and his religion if he were to share the information about why he believes Jedis should cover their heads - and why ANY covering will do. One simply doesn't think of an ordinary hoodie jacket as a religious article of clothing eh?

... wonders if any women have taken up the Jedi path?

[Sequoia]

... wonders if any women have taken up the Jedi path?

Um, why wouldn't there be?

You think all 70,000 or whatever of 'em are male?

[Lunacie]

Um, why wouldn't there be?

You think all 70,000 or whatever of 'em are male?

Should have looked more closely at the link I found myself. According to that link, about 4 times as many males as females follow this religion. Just going by what the webpage shows, don't know how they compiled this information.

demographics page from Jedi site (http://www.jedichurch.org/webapps/site/4448/60453/vote/voter-demographics.html)

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Now...I wonder...

If it were printed on the back...

"Wear A Hoodie For Jesus"...

If they would have bothered him...:smileroll

[dandalion]

My thoughts

After reading the article and the store managers only 'valid' reason that they wanted him to remove the hood because they wanted him to see the specials and not for security reasons makes me think that they were discriminating.

When I was a bank teller I was robbed by a guy wearing a hoodie with the hood up, so if a business wants people to remove their hoods for security reasons they have the right but they need to include everyone not pick and choose.

[brymble]

1. if you are being facetious, if a home made, off colour Pastafarian pirate outfit is not wrong, along with plastic crosses, plastic pentacles, veils that are not of the right colour/cut and material as well as anything else that is religious but not as high brow... this shouldn't be wrong either.

2. If you are not being facetious, I apologise

I assure you, I take this every bit as seriously as the Pastafarians take their pirate regalia.

[Caitlin.ann]

My thoughts

After reading the article and the store managers only 'valid' reason that they wanted him to remove the hood because they wanted him to see the specials and not for security reasons makes me think that they were discriminating.

When I was a bank teller I was robbed by a guy wearing a hoodie with the hood up, so if a business wants people to remove their hoods for security reasons they have the right but they need to include everyone not pick and choose.

Where did you read that the only "valid" reason was so that he could see the specials?

Additionally, a hoodie is not recognizably religious and they probably thought he was making a stink either to be a prick or to rip them off.

[Caitlin.ann]

So... does a lot of these people wear Jedi hoods?/hoodies?/veils/pentacles/pirate regalia?

And is that dependent on:
1.People in general
2. People who obscure their identities with pirate regalia/ jedi hoods/ hoodies/caps/veils
3. The policies of the companies?
(ETA: 4. The country you are in?)


We have have no such problem in Sweden... that I am aware of.

Not my policy..store policy. Complain to the company. I don't care what people wear in the store as long as I don't get fired for it.

America..

[Thunder]

From the article

"Daniel Jones, 23, who created the International Church of Jediism, claims he was “victimised over his beliefs” by staff at the supermarket in Bangor, North Wales.
The religion, inspired by the sci-fi films, is practised by 500,000 around the world and requires believers to cover their heads in public places. But Mr Jones, from Holyhead, said that staff ejected him from the store over security fears when he refused to remove his hood."

If it is literally HIS religion the rules are what ever he says they are.