why bother?

[Sage Rainsong]

So lately I have been thinking about various attitudes towards magic. There are many people that I have come across who see magic as art, or psychology, or a way to focus. Yet these same people still do magic. So I thought that it might be interesting to ask, why bother? Now I do not mean this in a rude or abrasive sort of way, it's just a curiosity of mine. If you do don't really think that magic can actually effect external events, why would one want to go through the trouble? Again I am not ranking on anyone or putting down their beliefs.

[Derwin]

If you do don't really think that magic can actually effect external events, why would one want to go through the trouble? I guess they have no life and need something to fill that space.

[Lunar Raven]

Lol. Nice, blunt response.

It's an interesting question, and I'm not sure of the answer.

[Chaos Hawk]

Probably for the same reason people do anything they don't see a point to. It fills some need.

Look at in in a different context.

I have a job that I hate. I often feel like "why do I bother" but it pays. I have to have money. Therefore it fills that need. It makes me miserable, it sucks my life and energy away, but it fills that need.

Maybe magic for some people fills the need of action. Wanting to feel like they are doing something. Maybe it feels the basic human need for ritual.

[Sage Rainsong]

I guess they have no life and need something to fill that space.

Wow! That was.........blunt.

[Windsmith]

I guess they have no life and need something to fill that space.Wow! That was.........blunt.And inaccurate, to boot.

Look, we could all live on krill and seaweed paste, too. And yet most of us go to the "trouble" of cooking or at least buying food a bit more fulfilling than that.

It may also help you to reconsider the idea that "psychology" =/= "actually effect external events." For those of us who don't believe in deities, or an astral plane/spiritual realm, we [I]are actual events. If I work a spell that changes my attitude or perspective, it changes my behavior. My behavior interacts with other people and perhaps changes their attitude and perspective, which changes their behavior, and so on ad infinitum. It may not be a fetch shaking things up on the astral, or Thor bending the Universe to my whims, but it's effecting actual events.

[Neville]

Hello.

To me it's about manifestation of intent. Christians and others do it through Prayer, Other Manifesters do it with PMA or Affirmation or Visualisation,

Wiccans will utilise ritual as did the Pagans before them, So to your question " Why bother?"

Because the degree of investiture of the self into a desired objective will augment the power of the thought form being projected,

However it must be let go. Immediately the Candle has burned down or the Prayer said.. It has to be released,, Folk who dwell upon their desires do not allow the Universe to do it's work on those desires because those wishes remain imprisoned in the beholder,

As ever this is only my own experience.

With Love Neville

[David19]

I've wondered the same thing sometimes, to me, magic is more than just psychology, I see it as using metaphysical/mystical energies to effect some kind of change, either in yourself (which I guess is related to psychology) or in the world.

That said, for those that do just see it as a psychological exercise, maybe, as others said, it fills that need for ritual action that all humans (even Atheists) have. Also, sometimes, it can help motivate them, e.g. they do their version of a ritual or spell for love, or beauty, or a job, or whatever, etc, and it gives them the confidence to see their beauty, or go out and apply to places, or find that special someone (or just get laid).

[Tiberias]

It may also help you to reconsider the idea that "psychology" =/= "actually effect external events." For those of us who don't believe in deities, or an astral plane/spiritual realm, we [I]are actual events. If I work a spell that changes my attitude or perspective, it changes my behavior.

This.

[puremagdalene]

And inaccurate, to boot.

Look, we could all live on krill and seaweed paste, too. And yet most of us go to the "trouble" of cooking or at least buying food a bit more fulfilling than that.

It may also help you to reconsider the idea that "psychology" =/= "actually effect external events." For those of us who don't believe in deities, or an astral plane/spiritual realm, we [I]are actual events. If I work a spell that changes my attitude or perspective, it changes my behavior. My behavior interacts with other people and perhaps changes their attitude and perspective, which changes their behavior, and so on ad infinitum. It may not be a fetch shaking things up on the astral, or Thor bending the Universe to my whims, but it's effecting actual events.

:thumbsup: Well said.

Simply focusing on something positive, building your energy and directing it towards a goal can be effective just in changing yourself even if you can't puppeteer the masses.

I do rituals on occasion and find that I usually feel fantastic afterwards. It may be 'a lot of trouble' but it's better than moping about in negativity.

[brymble]

I think this question says a lot more about the OP's attitude towards magic than it does the people whose motices she's questioning.

For starters, I would say that people who say magick is art, psychology or a focus and practice it anyway most likely do so as art, psychology, or a focus. Why is that an issue, let alone any of your business?

Are you under the naive impression that art doesn't actually affect external events? Then why did officials so strongly insist the tapestry of Picasso's Guernica be covered when the US made its presentation at the UN regarding the alledged "weapons of mass destruction" before the start of the Iraq war? I find it impossible to believe they went through all that trouble to take such a controversial move just because they thought the blue curtain they hid it with would go better with Colin Powell's suit.

[Sage Rainsong]

I think this question says a lot more about the OP's attitude towards magic than it does the people whose motices she's questioning.

For starters, I would say that people who say magick is art, psychology or a focus and practice it anyway most likely do so as art, psychology, or a focus. Why is that an issue, let alone any of your business?

Are you under the naive impression that art doesn't actually affect external events? Then why did officials so strongly insist the tapestry of Picasso's Guernica be covered when the US made its presentation at the UN regarding the alledged "weapons of mass destruction" before the start of the Iraq war? I find it impossible to believe they went through all that trouble to take such a controversial move just because they thought the blue curtain they hid it with would go better with Colin Powell's suit.

I am not saying that those things haven't changed the world, of course they do. It's also none of my business what an individual thinks about anything but they have the option of not responding to the thread. I didn't intend to offend anyone, I just wanted a different perspective. By the way I'm a guy but don't worry, it happens all the time, lol!

[Nuadu]

I am not saying that those things haven't changed the world, of course they do.

I believe magick can have an effect but I wouldnt say it changed the world cos, as any trad Wiccan, CM or Druid will tell you, only a minority of people are capable of that kind of energy work.

You dont really have to be a pagan to be familiar with that facet of energywork. Anyone who does a traditional form of martial arts will know some people either have the in born aptitude to recignise energy and connect to it or they dont. Even if they do there is no guarantee that they have enough of an aptitude to make significant enough use of that energy to reach a ranking that recignises a competence in energy work. Its something so rare that the only available places for testing are in the traditional martial arts country of origin. Noone in the west is savvy enough to give the grading, its just not a part of our culture.

That we lack that in our culture, I think, is why people rely so heavily on the concept of magick. They dont understand it not having been raised in a culture where its relevant so whether they have an aptitude for it or not they attribute all kinds of qualities to magick and consider themselves a success. It validates the EGO.

While the OP is worried about giving offense, I have to say Im not cos if this topic offends people they need to be confronted with reality. With the amount of people who use magick at a young age and the decades it takes to reach a recignised level of competence in energy work in other cultures I have to say that IMO it is 99% ego and 1% aptitude for them and 100% ego in 99% of the population.

Energy work isnt the larger part of religion anyway, self improvement, connection to the natural values and... DEITIES. Is what makes paganism paganism. The only things that emphasises energy work over that are pop bubblegum authors.

[spiral]

It may also help you to reconsider the idea that "psychology" =/= "actually effect external events." For those of us who don't believe in deities, or an astral plane/spiritual realm, we [I]are actual events. If I work a spell that changes my attitude or perspective, it changes my behavior. My behavior interacts with other people and perhaps changes their attitude and perspective, which changes their behavior, and so on ad infinitum. It may not be a fetch shaking things up on the astral, or Thor bending the Universe to my whims, but it's effecting actual events.

Good explanation; it reminds me of the saying - be the change you wish to see in the world.

[David19]

I am not saying that those things haven't changed the world, of course they do. It's also none of my business what an individual thinks about anything but they have the option of not responding to the thread. I didn't intend to offend anyone, I just wanted a different perspective. By the way I'm a guy but don't worry, it happens all the time, lol!

Personally, I don't think you were being offensive at all, I just saw you asking about something you were curious about :).

[Sage Rainsong]

While the OP is worried about giving offense, I have to say Im not cos if this topic offends people they need to be confronted with reality. With the amount of people who use magick at a young age and the decades it takes to reach a recignised level of competence in energy work in other cultures I have to say that IMO it is 99% ego and 1% aptitude for them and 100% ego in 99% of the population.


I wouldn't say that I am worried about being offensive exactly. I just wanted to emphasize that I was coming at the question in an offensive way. It can be difficult to set the tone for something solely online. If someone understands my intention to merely have a discussion, and is still offended then I wouldn't loose any sleep over it. Also when I talked about changing the world, I was referring to art, psychology and focus that the poster mentioned.

[Sage Rainsong]

And inaccurate, to boot.

Look, we could all live on krill and seaweed paste, too. And yet most of us go to the "trouble" of cooking or at least buying food a bit more fulfilling than that.

It may also help you to reconsider the idea that "psychology" =/= "actually effect external events." For those of us who don't believe in deities, or an astral plane/spiritual realm, we [I]are actual events. If I work a spell that changes my attitude or perspective, it changes my behavior. My behavior interacts with other people and perhaps changes their attitude and perspective, which changes their behavior, and so on ad infinitum. It may not be a fetch shaking things up on the astral, or Thor bending the Universe to my whims, but it's effecting actual events.

Well said as always windsmith. Just to play the devils advocate though, let me ask you (or anyone else who wants to of course) a few things. How does a ritual affect your thinking if you don't believe in it's literal power? If all you are seeking to do is change your perspective and thus behavior, why not just willfully change your behavior? Why spend the time, effort and money needed to say light a candle, make a sachet, etc.? If someone is merely trying to induce a placebo effect, then how can it be effective since you aren't supposed to know about a placebo because that usually destroys it.

[~Nixie]

I know the question was directed towards windsmith, but I will attempt to answer it. This is something I am still trying to understand myself, so I apologize if this comes off as being vague. Changing our thought patterns and behavior is very difficult for many people, especially when those thoughts are tied into past experiences and create connections in our brain that we don't entirely understand. From a psychological perspective, a ritual speaks to our subconscious so that we can communicate with that side of ourselves more effectively. Even magicians that attempt to directly affect the physical world use rituals as symbolic metaphors to speak to the subconscious. The subconscious is believed to be more "in tune" with the part of ourselves that is connected with everything. So in each case, the ritual isn't necessarily seen as literal. The point is to use something that speaks to you. Rituals can be psychologically beneficial from this standpoint because it can bring about a sense of wholeness with the universe, with nature, or sometimes a group of people. It can be helpful to feel like you have external "tools" helping you. Just because you realize that these are tools doesn't destroy anything. If it's inspiring, you enjoy doing it, and it helps you aid in creating your own reality, taking the time to do such things certainly doesn't seem like a "waste of energy". I feel content using these methods to communicate with a part of myself that I wouldn't normally have access to. I see myself as a microcosm of the universe.

I hope that makes some sense.


Well said as always windsmith. Just to play the devils advocate though, let me ask you (or anyone else who wants to of course) a few things. How does a ritual affect your thinking if you don't believe in it's literal power? If all you are seeking to do is change your perspective and thus behavior, why not just willfully change your behavior? Why spend the time, effort and money needed to say light a candle, make a sachet, etc.? If someone is merely trying to induce a placebo effect, then how can it be effective since you aren't supposed to know about a placebo because that usually destroys it.

[Windsmith]

...Just to play the devils advocate though, let me ask you (or anyone else who wants to of course) a few things. How does a ritual affect your thinking if you don't believe in it's literal power? If all you are seeking to do is change your perspective and thus behavior, why not just willfully change your behavior? Why spend the time, effort and money needed to say light a candle, make a sachet, etc.?


...Changing our thought patterns and behavior is very difficult for many people, especially when those thoughts are tied into past experiences and create connections in our brain that we don't entirely understand. From a psychological perspective, a ritual speaks to our subconscious so that we can communicate with that side of ourselves more effectively. Even magicians that attempt to directly affect the physical world use rituals as symbolic metaphors to speak to the subconscious. The subconscious is believed to be more "in tune" with the part of ourselves that is connected with everything. So in each case, the ritual isn't necessarily seen as literal. The point is to use something that speaks to you. Rituals can be psychologically beneficial from this standpoint because it can bring about a sense of wholeness with the universe, with nature, or sometimes a group of people. It can be helpful to feel like you have external "tools" helping you. Just because you realize that these are tools doesn't destroy anything. If it's inspiring, you enjoy doing it, and it helps you aid in creating your own reality, taking the time to do such things certainly doesn't seem like a "waste of energy". I feel content using these methods to communicate with a part of myself that I wouldn't normally have access to. I see myself as a microcosm of the universe.~Nixie hits a lot of it, but for me there is also that old saw "You get out of it what you put into it." Familiar behaviors and thought patterns are essentially burned into our brains. Neural pathways are deep. For most folks, changing behavior isn't as simple as saying, "OK, I was like this, but now I'm going to be like that." Brains just don't work like that.

A spell, by bypassing "usual" ways of thinking, can also function as a signal to our conscious self of just how serious we are about this change, and how dedicated to the process. And if I make the sachet, or pick a symbol, then I have something tangible that pulls me back onto the path when I stray; I have something I can see or smell or touch that brings me back to that calm, centered state I was in when I did the spell and reaffirms my committment to change.


If someone is merely trying to induce a placebo effect, then how can it be effective since you aren't supposed to know about a placebo because that usually destroys it.Again, I invite you to examine this conception you have that folks who believe that magic is art or psychology also believe that magic doesn't do anything. When I do a spell, I'm not trying to induce a placebo affect. I'm consciously trying to create change in my life and behavior. From a naturalistic religious standpoint, changes to the self are some of the most real changes there are.

[Tabbykitty]

So lately I have been thinking about various attitudes towards magic. There are many people that I have come across who see magic as art, or psychology, or a way to focus. Yet these same people still do magic. So I thought that it might be interesting to ask, why bother?

That's a really good question....

I mean.... if you don't really believe in casting spells or magic as a supernatural force that affects the world... why bother about it at all? There are many mental, spiritual, meditative techniques that are easier to practice and equally efficient when it comes to changing a person's viewpoint or as a technique of mental focus.

A friend of mine actually straightened out the whole issue for me years ago... his view was that.... if it doesn't make him a better person.... or improve his health or financial status.... then whatever practice it is..... magic and casting spells included... isn't worth doing....

It's a pretty good bit of advice... it has helped me to save time and avoid a lot of pitfalls while exploring various types of spirituality.

[Hærfest Leah]

I agree that some people are just bored but that is not the whole of it at all. Some peoples lives are in such a mess that they are really just that desperate to find a way to change things that does not involve hard work and determination. Then it makes one wonder that if there's a will there's a way why magic? Some people actually have that will and some just think magic doesn't actually involve strength, will, effort, and determination because they do not fully understand what "magic" is. All they see is a shortcut and then wonder why their efforts don't work, and then conclude that magic isn't real. The magic is when you see the real changes in yourself or those around you, but it takes work. Especially when concerning others... I firmly believe you cannot make others behave how you want them to, the so called magical part is making them want to for example change or think differently too.

Many people do not understand that most people who ever really did do magic were so covert that no one knows what they really did. In many cases much of what was magic was not magical at all now that we have science to explain it. Yes some psychological factors are involved, but I think spells, correspondences, tools, rituals, incantations etc are just a waste of time and energy. If you have to put so much effort into trying to gain mental focus in the 1st place, then you aren't cut out for it anyway. Fouthermore, why would you go devote your life to actions that someone (i.e Gerald Gardner and Doreen Valiente for example) just made up one day?

Many people who do "magic" or call themselves a witch are a disgrace to the rest whom obviously aren't kids just trying to get attention or adults whom haven't grown up yet. People whom you'd never know were one by looking at them or their house. I think if you have to learn how to be a witch out of a book or in a class then you're already lost in the wrong direction and really need to rethink your motivations. Half the people who say they're a witch are really just going through the motions they think they have to to look like one when a real witch (speaking historically) would never have dreamt of trying to make themselves look and act as witchy as possible so as to be convincing. In the same sense, there really aren't as many indigo children as that claim to be one. Many just need to stop reaching for shortcuts and trying to be something they're not.

Sorry for the soap box, I'm irritated with idiots right now.

[*oonagh*]

So lately I have been thinking about various attitudes towards magic. There are many people that I have come across who see magic as art, or psychology, or a way to focus. Yet these same people still do magic. So I thought that it might be interesting to ask, why bother? Now I do not mean this in a rude or abrasive sort of way, it's just a curiosity of mine. If you do don't really think that magic can actually effect external events, why would one want to go through the trouble? Again I am not ranking on anyone or putting down their beliefs.

hmmm...well, as a pantheist, my response is that it has internal effects (and it affects the individual). this, in and of itself, has an effect on all things.

[trueseeker]

So lately I have been thinking about various attitudes towards magic. There are many people that I have come across who see magic as art, or psychology, or a way to focus. Yet these same people still do magic. So I thought that it might be interesting to ask, why bother? Now I do not mean this in a rude or abrasive sort of way, it's just a curiosity of mine. If you do don't really think that magic can actually effect external events, why would one want to go through the trouble? Again I am not ranking on anyone or putting down their beliefs.

Because it works.Magic is not imaginary.It's like this said by those who can't do it.Because sad truth is not all people can be good at magic or even do it with success.Saying this is like saying anyone can be a genious in math.And it's true that magic fills a need,and has a purpose in this world.It's the only things that you can use to save yourself when in financial trouble for example.Some people beleive in miracles.And the miracle does happen.Because they beleive ,it fills that void inside them and they act confident and more determined after they have done a spell,And anyone with a diffrent atitude can achieve what they want.If you can imagine it it can be done.You cannot do what you cannot imagine.

[trueseeker]

I agree that some people are just bored but that is not the whole of it at all. Some peoples lives are in such a mess that they are really just that desperate to find a way to change things that does not involve hard work and determination. Then it makes one wonder that if there's a will there's a way why magic? Some people actually have that will and some just think magic doesn't actually involve strength, will, effort, and determination because they do not fully understand what "magic" is. All they see is a shortcut and then wonder why their efforts don't work, and then conclude that magic isn't real. The magic is when you see the real changes in yourself or those around you, but it takes work. Especially when concerning others... I firmly believe you cannot make others behave how you want them to, the so called magical part is making them want to for example change or think differently too.

Many people do not understand that most people who ever really did do magic were so covert that no one knows what they really did. In many cases much of what was magic was not magical at all now that we have science to explain it. Yes some psychological factors are involved, but I think spells, correspondences, tools, rituals, incantations etc are just a waste of time and energy. If you have to put so much effort into trying to gain mental focus in the 1st place, then you aren't cut out for it anyway. Fouthermore, why would you go devote your life to actions that someone (i.e Gerald Gardner and Doreen Valiente for example) just made up one day?

Many people who do "magic" or call themselves a witch are a disgrace to the rest whom obviously aren't kids just trying to get attention or adults whom haven't grown up yet. People whom you'd never know were one by looking at them or their house. I think if you have to learn how to be a witch out of a book or in a class then you're already lost in the wrong direction and really need to rethink your motivations. Half the people who say they're a witch are really just going through the motions they think they have to to look like one when a real witch (speaking historically) would never have dreamt of trying to make themselves look and act as witchy as possible so as to be convincing. In the same sense, there really aren't as many indigo children as that claim to be one. Many just need to stop reaching for shortcuts and trying to be something they're not.

Sorry for the soap box, I'm irritated with idiots right now.

Oh,I understand you.But it gets better sometimes.Sometimes you meet real people you don't even suspect they are interested in the occult and one day you find out 'the secret' happened to me :)

[Nicholas]

...because living in a realm of fantasy is much more fun than reality?

I can't fathom why.

[trueseeker]

:thumbsup: Well said.

Simply focusing on something positive, building your energy and directing it towards a goal can be effective just in changing yourself even if you can't puppeteer the masses.

I do rituals on occasion and find that I usually feel fantastic afterwards. It may be 'a lot of trouble' but it's better than moping about in negativity.

Actualy you can pupperteer the masses.Look at Hitler and his obsession for magic.Nefertiti's bust was found in a nazi bunker.Does not that ring a bell?

[Windsmith]

...because living in a realm of fantasy is much more fun than reality?

I can't fathom why.Wellllll...if you'd read the whole thread, you would see that some of us have answered it pretty extensively. Then perhaps you could fathom why.

[Kalika]

If they see it as an art, or a way to focus... then that is a reason to do magic, isn't it?

People do art because they enjoy it - not everyone shares it, and it may not influence anyone outside themselves.

As a means to focus... I think that is self-explanatory... why not?


Many people who do "magic" or call themselves a witch are a disgrace to the rest whom obviously aren't kids just trying to get attention or adults whom haven't grown up yet. People whom you'd never know were one by looking at them or their house. I think if you have to learn how to be a witch out of a book or in a class then you're already lost in the wrong direction and really need to rethink your motivations. Half the people who say they're a witch are really just going through the motions they think they have to to look like one when a real witch (speaking historically) would never have dreamt of trying to make themselves look and act as witchy as possible so as to be convincing. In the same sense, there really aren't as many indigo children as that claim to be one. Many just need to stop reaching for shortcuts and trying to be something they're not.


You know, I've never understood this either. What does looking "witchy" have to do with actually being a witch? And really... what is looking witchy, anyway? With the emo and goth culture so abundant these days, dark hair, eyes, makeup, black clothing, etc doesn't really mean anything anymore... and the loose, flowy clothing that some favor isn't "witchy" imo, it's just... comfortable for them. :lol: People still expect you to look a certain way... dressing in a business suit or jeans and a t-shirt doesn't seem to fit the general public's idea of a witch... but I know there are plenty of us out there that do just that.

Everyone wants to be important... special...different. Whether it is to prove something to themselves, to try to give an otherwise insignificant life meaning (their feeling of insignificance), an act of rebellion... or one of the other hundreds of reasons that I'm sure are out there. If they can't find something that actually makes them feel that way... they take one word out of a definition of something - like indigo children - and say, 'hey, that's me!!' and run with it. Remember high school? Sadly, most people never outgrow that need to fit in or be something better/more special/important.

The way I figure it is that these people aren't going to go away. All you can do is be the best representation of your path possible when you do put yourself out there. I personally don't very often... but when I do, I'm just myself. Being a pagan is an aspect of who I am, and if people have questions or want to know more, I'm willing to talk about it, or help. If not, then I'm not pushy and I don't flaunt it. I don't need to tell everyone that will listen that I'm this amazingly powerful witch or blah blah blah. If I am, I can show it through actions, not just say the words - and if you can show it, there is no need to run your mouth about it.

One of those sayings that I have always loved, is that is you need to tell people that you are powerful, you aren't. The more vocal people tend to be about how great they are... the less great they turn out to be. I try to stay away from those people. :smile: