Lilith and a Sumerian Legend?

[Ayrtha]

Ok, I know there are some threads about Lilith already, but I haven't see this story posted anywhere (if I have missed it, I'm sorry _inabox_):
http://www.lilithgallery.com/library/The_Legend_of_Lilith.html
I liked the story a lot, I felt really inspired and I'm working in a painting of it.

The thing is, I have serious doubts about the authenticity of it. I'd like to know if someone around here knows the original source of the text above, or the context.

I tried to do a bit of research on my own, but my knowledge of Sumerian myths it's really limited and Lilith seems specially difficult to track, my bullshit detector have gave me a lot of warnings, but I don't know enough to point what could be wrong or right. The only thing I got was that one of the images in the page it's more probably Inanna than Lilith, but still nothing about where the legend could come from.

[RoseKitten]

I hate to break it to you, but this "myth" isn't real. First of all, no clue what the first 2 pics are, but the third is Inanna. Second of all, Lillith is a demon, and did not "create" anything when she went anywhere, except perhaps destruction and death. This site has no reference to where this "myth" came from either.

There are no known myths of Lillith. She is mentioned in passing here and there, but that's it. It is a beautiful story, but it's a fake. I'm sorry.

[ninurta2008]

the first one looks like a christian statue almost, so I am going to assume that is some hellenistic era statue as most look like the christian saint statues. (just the styles of the statues, they look hellenistic, but have wings).

The second is a hellenistic goddess, maybe Aphrodite, I don't know, neither are Lilith.

The third one is possibly Ereshkigal, though that is unknown, though its either Inanna or Ereshkigal. Not Lilith/lilitu.

As for a temple to lilith, the jews have more temples to Baal Hadad than anyone had to Lilitu/Lilith then. As for the myth, no, it was either made up by the author or re-adapted from a text.

Lilith isn't a goddess, she is a demon by the modern sense of the word, more like the persian demons, not demons in the ancient greek sense.

[RoseKitten]

Lilith isn't a goddess, she is a demon by the modern sense of the word, more like the persian demons, not demons in the ancient greek sense.

What's the difference? The Sumerians viewed her as a demon as well.

[ninurta2008]

What's the difference? The Sumerians viewed her as a demon as well.
To clarify that she didn't have any positive uses to the sumerians. Many people read the translation of the sumerian demon and assume its meant in the greek sense, but when in reality there were different sumerian words for different types of demons.

Thats all.:uhhuhuh:

[OneGreyOwl]

I hate to break it to you, but this "myth" isn't real. First of all, no clue what the first 2 pics are, but the third is Inanna. Second of all, Lillith is a demon, and did not "create" anything when she went anywhere, except perhaps destruction and death. This site has no reference to where this "myth" came from either.

There are no known myths of Lillith. She is mentioned in passing here and there, but that's it. It is a beautiful story, but it's a fake. I'm sorry.While I can't address the veracity of the poem, Lilith worship and association with Sumerian mother goddesses is not a new concept. Much of the ancient Hebrew texts relied HEAVILY on Sumerian legends, would be considered flat out plagarizations in today's society, in fact. The demonization of the goddess in the ancient texts with the rise of patriarchy is pretty undeniable (Monica Joos "great cosmic mother" really does a fantastic job of blending myth, religion, logic and archeology).

Anyway, Lilith got a pretty good, heavily referenced article in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

And this paragraph taken from here http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/lillith.htm provides interesting food for thought:

She is linked by the theosophists with the planet Saturn. The importance attached to Lilith in witchcraft is attested by Doreen Valiente, who regarded her as one of the presiding goddesses of the Craft, calling her “the personification of erotic dreams, the suppressed desire for delights”. According to Gerald Gardner there is a tradition of the continuous worship of Lilith to the present time in witchcraft, and that hers is the name sometimes given to the Goddess being personified, in ritual, by the coven Priestess. Leland in his Etruscan-Roman Remains identifies Lilith with Herodias, or Aradia. He notes that she is mentioned in the old Slavonian spells and charms, and therein has twelve daughters, an instance of the witches thirteen perhaps. In Irish tradition Lilith gives her favours especially to ‘celibates, mystics and hermits'. Yeates calls the Sidhe her ‘children'.

[ninurta2008]

While I can't address the veracity of the poem, Lilith worship and association with Sumerian mother goddesses is not a new concept.
Depends on how old is new. While it isn't ancient, it began I think about the victorian era (I think), which by religion standards its somewhat new. Lilith is the exact polar opposite of anything to do with the sumerian mother goddesses.

She is not even a mother, she would probably kill her own children. She kills children, she isn't a mother goddess in anywhere in mesopotamia. I can attest that she is not really a sumerian goddess, she isnt ever a goddess. As Lilitu "she" is a "they", a group of demongoddesses.

Actually there are two words that translate Lilitu and Lilu into Latin/english in a way, Succubus and Incubus, but besides that role, they make you infertile and kill your children.


Much of the ancient Hebrew texts relied HEAVILY on Sumerian legends, would be considered flat out plagarizations in today's society, in fact.
That is not true. I thought that until I actually looked into the texts of the ancient mesopotamian languages and their texts directly. Abraham came from Sumeria/Babylonia/Assyria (he and his father Haran, part of his family in Ur), and even if you don't believe in him being real, there is also DNA evidence that says that the hebrew people did in fact come from mesopotamia. So it is expected that they would still have some stories left from their polytheistic path when they became jewish. Look at the christianized/secularized or whatever holiday holloween! Its kinda like that.


The demonization of the goddess in the ancient texts with the rise of patriarchy is pretty undeniable (Monica Joos "great cosmic mother" really does a fantastic job of blending myth, religion, logic and archeology).
I didn't know that there was any matriarchy in the region beyond possibly the amazons way out there near Russia and Anatolia. The sumerians didn't demonize any goddess, and there is no prior written texts outside of Egypt, and the undeciphered Indus script, period. So I don't see why you claim she was demonized. that's baseless.


Anyway, Lilith got a pretty good, heavily referenced article in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith
The perils of wikipedia, they even equate Inanna with her enemy, the lilitu demon that was in her tree making a nest.


And this paragraph taken from here http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/lillith.htm provides interesting food for thought:

She is linked by the theosophists with the planet Saturn. The importance attached to Lilith in witchcraft is attested by Doreen Valiente, who regarded her as one of the presiding goddesses of the Craft, calling her “the personification of erotic dreams, the suppressed desire for delights”. According to Gerald Gardner there is a tradition of the continuous worship of Lilith to the present time in witchcraft, and that hers is the name sometimes given to the Goddess being personified, in ritual, by the coven Priestess.
Modern believers can believe whatever they wish. But the historical Lilith, and her counterparts, the lilitu, are demons, and one of the demons with nothing beneficial about them. I'd rather her be in her temple being worshipped by wiccans and new agers than her be anywhere near my wife and children.


Leland in his Etruscan-Roman Remains identifies Lilith with Herodias, or Aradia. He notes that she is mentioned in the old Slavonian spells and charms, and therein has twelve daughters, an instance of the witches thirteen perhaps. In Irish tradition Lilith gives her favours especially to ‘celibates, mystics and hermits'. Yeates calls the Sidhe her ‘children'.
Do they name any references from sumerian texts?

My criticism isn't about you by the way, its about some of the new age stuff being interpreted as ancient beliefs that I am criticizing. I am an eclectic pagan, alternative views are nothing new to me, but the very baseless claims some make are just odd. As it doesnt have to be ancient to be legitimate. Wicca isn't ancient, its a new religion relatively, though its a great and good religion.

[OneGreyOwl]

My criticism isn't about you by the way, its about some of the new age stuff being interpreted as ancient beliefs that I am criticizing. I am an eclectic pagan, alternative views are nothing new to me, but the very baseless claims some make are just odd. As it doesnt have to be ancient to be legitimate. Wicca isn't ancient, its a new religion relatively, though its a great and good religion.Wicca is very new, but mother goddess worship is very old. And I'm syncretic wicca, not new age.

As for the rest of your points, for someone who lists their age as 19 you seem to be extraordinarily well read, quite beyond your years. You probably would enjoy Monica Sjoo's book, since it does address archeological evidence as well as sacred texts working through the timeline of early humanity.

As for Lilith, I simply cannot be that black or white. There are many references to her, throughout history, in many ways, sometimes demon, sometimes hag, sometimes veiled or dark one, there are the associations with snakes and owls. Too many of the associations are those which have traditionally been sacred to Goddesses. Frankly many goddesses are dark and associated with death yet they aren't considered demonic, and I'm not quite sure if there are other demons that accidentally get lumped in with the gods. Considering the region that her legends came from, considering the close association of the Hebrew texts to the Babylonia and Sumerian myths, I'm unconvinced. One of my elders has his masters in religious studies, and is an expert in ancient Egypt. Now I have a very interesting discussion to bring up with him this month.

[Nachtigall]

He notes that she is mentioned in the old Slavonian spells and charms, and therein has twelve daughters, an instance of the witches thirteen perhaps.
As a Slavic Pagan, I would be very interested to see some examples of such charms. In my opinion, even if Lilith is mentioned, the spell is meant to be used for protection from her, and not to treat her like "mother Goddess"

[Ayrtha]

Oh, wow, thanks for all the input :thumbsup:

I have to say that I'm not specially bothered about if the tale it's true or not when it cames to get inspiration for a piece, but I like to get my sources right if I can :hahugh:
However, if the legend it's not about Lilith could it be about any other goddess (or god, or demon =P)? does the story ring familiar to anyone? or it's made up?

[ninurta2008]

Wicca is very new, but mother goddess worship is very old. And I'm syncretic wicca, not new age.

As for the rest of your points, for someone who lists their age as 19 you seem to be extraordinarily well read, quite beyond your years. You probably would enjoy Monica Sjoo's book, since it does address archeological evidence as well as sacred texts working through the timeline of early humanity.

As for Lilith, I simply cannot be that black or white. There are many references to her, throughout history, in many ways, sometimes demon, sometimes hag, sometimes veiled or dark one, there are the associations with snakes and owls. Too many of the associations are those which have traditionally been sacred to Goddesses. Frankly many goddesses are dark and associated with death yet they aren't considered demonic, and I'm not quite sure if there are other demons that accidentally get lumped in with the gods. Considering the region that her legends came from, considering the close association of the Hebrew texts to the Babylonia and Sumerian myths, I'm unconvinced. One of my elders has his masters in religious studies, and is an expert in ancient Egypt. Now I have a very interesting discussion to bring up with him this month.
I understand where the view comes from, and yeah Lilith ffrom the jewish perspective can be intepreted as a goddess, maybe one of liberation, but not of being a mother goddess. As for the owl and the serpent, they are associated with goddesses and gods, good and evil, they only hold meanins in the context of the meanings, myths and cultures. And the species is also very important to consider. A rattlesnake wouldn't be a symbol of egyptian royalty, but the cobra is shown (I think thats the species).

Though the modern views of her being a goddess are modern, they are based on the jewish demon and not he babylonian one nor the sumerian one. And trust me, regardless of the common origin, the two are vastly different. For example, the lilitu demonesses are less so succubi and moreso baby killers. Meanwhile, in the jewish tradition it is a succubus.



Oh, wow, thanks for all the input :thumbsup:

I have to say that I'm not specially bothered about if the tale it's true or not when it cames to get inspiration for a piece, but I like to get my sources right if I can :hahugh:
However, if the legend it's not about Lilith could it be about any other goddess (or god, or demon =P)? does the story ring familiar to anyone? or it's made up?
You're welcome!

The attempt to make her into a goddess has turned Lilith into Ishtar. Ishtar is what most people are looking for when they are changing lilith into a goddess.

[RoseKitten]

Oh, wow, thanks for all the input :thumbsup:

I have to say that I'm not specially bothered about if the tale it's true or not when it cames to get inspiration for a piece, but I like to get my sources right if I can :hahugh:
However, if the legend it's not about Lilith could it be about any other goddess (or god, or demon =P)? does the story ring familiar to anyone? or it's made up?




The attempt to make her into a goddess has turned Lilith into Ishtar. Ishtar is what most people are looking for when they are changing lilith into a goddess.

I'll hit both points here. Let me preface this with the fact that Inanna is my patron, and I am a Sumerian Recon, I have read every myth on Inanna.

As far as the myth you posted, there is nothing like it so far as I have read in Sumerian myth. As Ninurta mentioned, many try to turn Lillith into Ishtar (Babylonian)/Inanna (Sumerian) [they are the same goddess, just different time period]. This comes from a mistranslation (dead languages are good for that sometimes) done in the 60's. I don't have my reference books with me right now, as I'm sick and lazy this evening. In the myth referencing Inanna and Lillith, they somehow used the two as interchangeable (as some do with Wicca and witchcraft and paganism). This lead to a new sub-culture that worshiped Lillith as a goddess, instead of as a demon.

[David19]

RoseKitten and ninurta said it all, but, I just wanted to post this essay on Lilith, that doesn't downplay her true origins, it's really good one (and, I apologise if people have seen it before, 'cause I posted it in a lot of other Lilith threads that come up):

'Lilith: From Demoness to Dark Goddess' by Aaron Leitch (http://kheph777.tripod.com/lilith.html) (he's got some other good articles on his site (http://kheph777.tripod.com/), but, there not Lilith-related).

[ninurta2008]

RoseKitten and ninurta said it all, but, I just wanted to post this essay on Lilith, that doesn't downplay her true origins, it's really good one (and, I apologise if people have seen it before, 'cause I posted it in a lot of other Lilith threads that come up):

'Lilith: From Demoness to Dark Goddess' by Aaron Leitch (http://kheph777.tripod.com/lilith.html) (he's got some other good articles on his site (http://kheph777.tripod.com/), but, there not Lilith-related).


ooo....interesting article.

[RoseKitten]

RoseKitten and ninurta said it all, but, I just wanted to post this essay on Lilith, that doesn't downplay her true origins, it's really good one (and, I apologise if people have seen it before, 'cause I posted it in a lot of other Lilith threads that come up):

'Lilith: From Demoness to Dark Goddess' by Aaron Leitch (http://kheph777.tripod.com/lilith.html) (he's got some other good articles on his site (http://kheph777.tripod.com/), but, there not Lilith-related).

That's what I love about you! You always have the right links handy.... new computers suck! :toofless:

[ninurta2008]

That's what I love about you! You always have the right links handy.... new computers suck! :toofless:
I know right, he's always got so much information and so much links. he is cool like that:thumbsup:.