Manannann the psychopmp?

[Nuadu]

I had embraced the idea that Manannann was a psychopomp, a guide to the otherworld and the afterlife but I traced the origin of the idea to the white goddess by Robert Graves. He might have been a great authority in some area's and no worse then any other writer of his ilk in his day but I'd say he doesnt know a heck of a lot about Irish trad from the mistranslations in the white goddess.

I havent totally given up on the idea but I am stumped with manannann now. What role do Manannann and other deities, with similar associations and thematic roles, like Donn, Ladru and Tethra play in Irish Paganism if not the role of psychopomps?

[odubhain]

I had embraced the idea that Manannann was a psychopomp, a guide to the otherworld and the afterlife but I traced the origin of the idea to the white goddess by Robert Graves. He might have been a great authority in some area's and no worse then any other writer of his ilk in his day but I'd say he doesnt know a heck of a lot about Irish trad from the mistranslations in the white goddess.

I havent totally given up on the idea but I am stumped with manannann now. What role do Manannann and other deities, with similar associations and thematic roles, like Donn, Ladru and Tethra play in Irish Paganism if not the role of psychopomps?

Manannán is not one who conveys the dead but he is one who can control the veil between the worlds. He is also the one deity who appears across all the cycles of Irish mythology and seems to be able to go anywhere in his boat or on his horse. He is also a shapeshifter and as such is the epitome of a mage who can go anywhere, be anything and do what he likes.

Donn and Ladra are mortals who died in association with sea voyages (though Donn may also be a much older Irish deity). They are more likely to fill the role of psychopomp. Tethra is a Fomorian sea deity who is supposedly killed at 2nd Moytura.His cattle are the fish of the sea or the stars in the sky. Donn's Truth and his House in the sea definitely set him up as the gatekeeper to the Land of the Dead in Irish mythology.

There's a lot to discuss on this topic but Manannán is more for the Ever-living than he is a conveyer of teh dead.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Seren_]

If you can find a copy, I'd recommend Charles MacQuarrie's phd thesis, The Waves of Manannan. It's not cheap but you might be able to get it through IIL, Nuadu.

[Nuadu]

Manannán is not one who conveys the dead but he is one who can control the veil between the worlds. He is also the one deity who appears across all the cycles of Irish mythology and seems to be able to go anywhere in his boat or on his horse. He is also a shapeshifter and as such is the epitome of a mage who can go anywhere, be anything and do what he likes.

Thanks for replying Searles,

Would you say the quality of lifting the viel to allow insight into the otherworld is significant enough for a male deity to set Manannann apart from other male deities or does the shape shifting part play a greater role? The goddesses seem to lift the viel more often and have the folklore themes associated with them. The sacrificed woman who brings goodness to her people in the finding of the boyne, shannon etc... and those rivers being a source of inspiration/portal to the otherworld. I cant think of male counterparts anyway it is a good defining feature.


Donn and Ladra are mortals who died in association with sea voyages (though Donn may also be a much older Irish deity). They are more likely to fill the role of psychopomp. Tethra is a Fomorian sea deity who is supposedly killed at 2nd Moytura.His cattle are the fish of the sea or the stars in the sky. Donn's Truth and his House in the sea definitely set him up as the gatekeeper to the Land of the Dead in Irish mythology.

Id taken the 4 of them as regional varients of a single deity type because of their association with the sea. I worked on the assumption that because they had a similar theme associated with them that they shared or atleast had a similar function and I overlooked things like the book of invasions portraying them as mortals in its narrative because of the literary nature of the BoI. I didnt twig that I'd expanded on an idea from Robert Graves.

Still though I think Manannann as a name could be regional cos it could decend from the original title for the Isle of Man/Manu. I despise irish Grammer cos it was hammered into us by rote as kids but the name could have changed from Manu to Manannann like Danu changes to Danann. If thats the case his presence in stories related to other deities from the Ulster and leinster regions could be down to the Isle of Man being close to those regions and its name being known... if it is just a regional name attached to an Island wide type of deity (Defining a deity by a function)) then there should be other regional varients. I cant think of other candidates besides those 3 and if they share manannanns traits why wouldnt he share in theirs?

[Nuadu]

If you can find a copy, I'd recommend Charles MacQuarrie's phd thesis, The Waves of Manannan. It's not cheap but you might be able to get it through IIL, Nuadu.

Do you mean From Manannán to Bercilak?

I hadn't considered the churl/trickster bit. Would you say acting as a judge or imparting otherworld gifts in relation to the skill sets him apart from his role in the adventures and voyages?

[Seren_]

Do you mean From Manannán to Bercilak?

I hadn't considered the churl/trickster bit. Would you say acting as a judge or imparting otherworld gifts in relation to the skill sets him apart from his role in the adventures and voyages?

I'm not sure if that's a chapter from the book or an article on its own, but MacQuarrie did his thesis on Manannán covering his appearances from early to modern Irish literature. The full title is:

The Biography of the Irish God of the Sea from the Voyage of Bran (700 A.D.) to Finnegans Wake (1939): The Waves of Manannán (http://www.mellenpress.com/mellenpress.cfm?bookid=5894&pc=9)

It's been a looooong time since I looked at it, though, and I mostly concentrated on his churl/trickster role in relation to the Dagda, I've never had time to read the whole thing.

[Nuadu]

I'm not sure if that's a chapter from the book or an article on its own, but MacQuarrie did his thesis on Manannán covering his appearances from early to modern Irish literature. The full title is:

The Biography of the Irish God of the Sea from the Voyage of Bran (700 A.D.) to Finnegans Wake (1939): The Waves of Manannán (http://www.mellenpress.com/mellenpress.cfm?bookid=5894&pc=9)


Finnegans Wake! I'll have to root out a copy of that somewhere. Its a rare thing to find someone from California comparing myth to modern culture. Deadly stuff thanks Seren.

[siannan 13]

Would you consider Morrigan as a psychopomp Deity ?

Are there any other Irish psychopomp Deities ?

[Noinden]

I had embraced the idea that Manannann was a psychopomp, a guide to the otherworld and the afterlife but I traced the origin of the idea to the white goddess by Robert Graves. He might have been a great authority in some area's and no worse then any other writer of his ilk in his day but I'd say he doesnt know a heck of a lot about Irish trad from the mistranslations in the white goddess.

I havent totally given up on the idea but I am stumped with manannann now. What role do Manannann and other deities, with similar associations and thematic roles, like Donn, Ladru and Tethra play in Irish Paganism if not the role of psychopomps?


Ok perhaps you have not read this but .... Graves SUCKED at things Celtic, but his Grandfather (or was it Great Uncle) was an expert. So the white Goddess is not that hot. Sadly it resonates with a lot of people, and they get all their ideas from here, sadly including Ogam/Ogham :(

I think the problem is, we try to put other cultures ideas of roles on these beings, Mannan is seen as a a Pschopomp by a lot due to his Sea associations. So when yoru favorite "Land, Sea, Sky" is thought of, the Ancestors are in the Sea (of time). I prefer that when Fire (Imbas) meets water we get Mist, and we can travel to the otherworld. But I am strange like that.