Irish/Celtic/Gaelic Creation myth V Origin Stories

[Nuadu]

I was running through the posts on the MIA wiccan creation myth thread and the Irish creation story or lack of one was mentioned. Rather then derail the thread I thought Id start one here cos its an interesting topic.

In that thread Foal-Chu said about the invasions being our replacement for a creation myth:

That's the Christianized version...

It has been suggested by Alexei Kondratiev, that, though it's been lost, there most likely *was* a Celtic Creation myth, that went something along the lines of a ritual sacrifice....a death and dismemberment of a being by another (perhaps his twin). Examples of similar themes occur in other Indo-European lore, including Vedic (death and dismemberment of Yama); Norse (death of Ymir, from whom Yggdrasil sprouts); and Romulus and Remus of Rome, among others.

Do you guys believe there was a creation myth?
Do you think the invasions are the myth or that the replaced the creation myth?
Why do you think we lost our creation myth?

Ive found that style of creation myths a fairly common idea in peoples folklore and I agree that there probably was a single creation myth along those lines. Where I would differ is viewing the two sets of myth IMO one is a creation story of the place and the other is a creation story of a people. So the invasions werent replacing anything and they were probably just as old as an island wide creation story.

Rather then looking at something as nebulous and open to personal interpretation as 'Indo European culture' for evidence. I think if we are going to look outside the native lit for evidence then looking at other Island cultures native lit from around the world gives us a better view of things. This is a general version of the creation story for NewZealands North and South Islands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Island#M.C4.81ori_mythology

A retelling of a specific peoples creation story from group on NewZealands North Island
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE7-_Z03Aw4

They have both a creation story the place and a creation story of the peoples, the two dont conflict.

To me that raises the question - why did we loose our creation myth?
IMO we lost it cos it wasnt as relevant to our way of life as the other regional creation stories like the finding of Cashel, the Finding of the River Boyne, the Cailleach Bhearra creating mountains and so on. The reason we dont have a creation myth for the island today is Irelands tribal and territorial nature. Ireland was a system of territories with separate warring peoples from its early historical period right up to the 1600s when our high culture was forced into a subaltern status by the occupation. Its one of the remarkable features of our culture that we never developed a centralised government and showed no signs of developing one despite centralised government developing in the rest of Europe. It was only when our culture was put in spancels that we had an invading enemy that would unite us and give us an emotional sense of unity that we could call nationalism. Prior to that each territory was literally its own nation and would have had their own creation stories in mind when patronising scribes or just having Poets telling stories orally.

Thems Just my idea's anyway. Does anyone else have an opinion at all?

[Faol-chù]

Do you guys believe there was a creation myth?
Do you think the invasions are the myth or that the replaced the creation myth?
Why do you think we lost our creation myth?


Ive found that style of creation myths a fairly common idea in peoples folklore and I agree that there probably was a single creation myth along those lines. Where I would differ is viewing the two sets of myth IMO one is a creation story of the place and the other is a creation story of a people. So the invasions werent replacing anything and they were probably just as old as an island wide creation story.

I obviously don't know the answers to your questions for certiain, but I have this to say:

It is remarkable to me, as a person raised from birth speaking English who is learning Scottish Gaelic as an adult that there is a very strong tendancy to link people as "of a place" within a multiple aspects of the language (Scottish Gaelic). There are nuances which suggest that the people are not necessarily separate from the land.

For this reason (and others), I'm not sure that there is any real difference between "the creation of a place" and "the creation of a people" within the language.
I honestly think that fact may have been part of the problem Christianity had with some of these "creation" stories...They featured people being 'born from the land' and took away from the emphasis upon them being "from God in Heaven".

I would agree that the invasions were a nation-wide creation story. Daithi OhOgain (my accent marks aren't working for me today) has suggested that the invasion stories were written down at a time when the island was being overtaken by norsemen, and other heathens(:hahugh:)...and that the particular way the invasions were put together was supposed to be a 'spell', of sorts...a way of making the people of the island 'as one'...to withstand the onslaught: physical, mental, and otherwise and to prevail as "Irishmen".

I'm not sure you "lost" your creation story, as much as I think it exists in multiple, vaguely different, tellings by tradition-bearers (in the native language). It does not prevail, however, as something that "writing" factions (such as the church, or publishers--remember, they used to be one in the same) care to record for all posterity....and it probably would no longer be recognized as a "creation" story, as much as "sgeulachdan"....that are only relevant as relics of the past.

[CelticMoon11]

I really wish I could find where I had read it but a website suggested that Danu was the mother goddess, she poured water onto the land and there sprouted a big tree (tree of life?), called Bile, from which together the first life was created. Probably an elaborate fabrication wasn't a bad read :).

[Eamon O'Rourke]

I was running through the posts on the MIA wiccan creation myth thread and the Irish creation story or lack of one was mentioned. Rather then derail the thread I thought Id start one here cos its an interesting topic.

In that thread Foal-Chu said about the invasions being our replacement for a creation myth:


Do you guys believe there was a creation myth?
Do you think the invasions are the myth or that the replaced the creation myth?
Why do you think we lost our creation myth?

Ive found that style of creation myths a fairly common idea in peoples folklore and I agree that there probably was a single creation myth along those lines. Where I would differ is viewing the two sets of myth IMO one is a creation story of the place and the other is a creation story of a people. So the invasions werent replacing anything and they were probably just as old as an island wide creation story.

Rather then looking at something as nebulous and open to personal interpretation as 'Indo European culture' for evidence. I think if we are going to look outside the native lit for evidence then looking at other Island cultures native lit from around the world gives us a better view of things. This is a general version of the creation story for NewZealands North and South Islands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Island#M.C4.81ori_mythology

A retelling of a specific peoples creation story from group on NewZealands North Island
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE7-_Z03Aw4

They have both a creation story the place and a creation story of the peoples, the two dont conflict.

To me that raises the question - why did we loose our creation myth?
IMO we lost it cos it wasnt as relevant to our way of life as the other regional creation stories like the finding of Cashel, the Finding of the River Boyne, the Cailleach Bhearra creating mountains and so on. The reason we dont have a creation myth for the island today is Irelands tribal and territorial nature. Ireland was a system of territories with separate warring peoples from its early historical period right up to the 1600s when our high culture was forced into a subaltern status by the occupation. Its one of the remarkable features of our culture that we never developed a centralised government and showed no signs of developing one despite centralised government developing in the rest of Europe. It was only when our culture was put in spancels that we had an invading enemy that would unite us and give us an emotional sense of unity that we could call nationalism. Prior to that each territory was literally its own nation and would have had their own creation stories in mind when patronising scribes or just having Poets telling stories orally.

Thems Just my idea's anyway. Does anyone else have an opinion at all?

I believe that Ireland had a creation myth that it probably shared with other Celtic countries. The reason it did not survive in the literature is because it would have been in direct conflict with the Biblical creation myth of Christianity, which actually begins the stories of the Invasions in the Lebor Gabala Erenn. The stories of the Invasions themselves did not necessarily contradict the Biblical accout of history, and were kept as an supplement to it. It is highly doubtful however that the Church would have been interested in preserving a Pagan account of creation that contradicts anything in the book of Genesis.

[odubhain]

I was running through the posts on the MIA wiccan creation myth thread and the Irish creation story or lack of one was mentioned. Rather then derail the thread I thought Id start one here cos its an interesting topic.

In that thread Foal-Chu said about the invasions being our replacement for a creation myth:

Do you guys believe there was a creation myth?

I think the creation myth was a mystery and that it had to do with coming forth from darkness and the depths (much like Genesis and in Indian myths). Danielou says this in The Myths and the Gods of India:

"In the beginning, there was neither being, nor not-being and that the darkness could not be seen for the darkness."

In Irish mythology the darkness is perhaps the depths of the Sea or the vast Underworld (Domnu). The well, the tree and the fire are perhaps the primal sources of Creation. It is the Mother Goddess who invokes the flow of primal water and knowledge (Danu). It is through the action of being that the world and everything comes into being or is realized (insert primal god name here, if not An Dagda).

Another early Irish Christian writing on the previous Pagan ideas about Creation characterize it as being a "head in a bag." I think that this is actually saying that being came out of non-being through the process of creation. If one looks at *ALL* Creation myths, each starts from somewhere or some deity yet eventually they all boil down to either it's "unknown" or some primal being/substance/concept was always here (i.e. "ever-living"). The Tuatha Dé Danann are the "Ever-Living" of Irish mythology (along with the Fomorii who might better be characterized as "primal").


Do you think the invasions are the myth or that the replaced the creation myth?
I think they are a part of the creation story. As Rees and Rees say in Celtic Heritage, they are "coming into being" stories.


Why do you think we lost our creation myth?

I think the Irish Creation Myth has always been right there within every Irish person's center of being (their "Gorm a Clí"). One has to look for the well, the tree and the fire in order to release its story. As I teach in my classes about the "Center of the World" and the "Celtic Creation":


To a Celt the answer to the question, “Where is the Center of the World?, “ had three answers. As an individual, his/her answer would have been, “It is where I stand.” This referred to the “gorm a cli” or the center of the self, the “bosom or heart.” As a member of a household it would have been, “It is the cleithe, the center pole of my home.” As a member of a tuatha or clan it would have been the Bile or sacred tree of the Gods.



The Cauldron of Caer Sidi
(by Searles O’Dubhain)

What is thought but a spark that leaps into our consciousness?
What is consciousness without the distinction of knowledge?
What is knowledge but a flood that sweeps through our mind?
What is mind unless we are individual beings?
What is being but the hard ground of reality?
What is reality without the connection of spirit?
What is spirit but the wind’s music sparkling upon the face of life?
What is life without the primal fire of awareness?
What is awareness without the first thought of creation?

Spark of thought, consciousness leaping.
Consciousness, distinction of knowledge.
Flood of knowledge, sweeping of mind.
Mind, individuality of being.
Being, hard ground of reality.
Reality, connection of spirit.
Spiritual music, sparkling of life.
Primal Life, fire of awareness!
Awareness, first thought of creation.

Searles O'Dubhain

[odubhain]

Here's a link to another effort at creating a "creation myth" by Michael j. McCoy:

http://www.wordclay.com/BookStore/BookStoreBookDetails.aspx?bookid=20619#

I include an excerpt:

ORIGINS

This now is the story of origins:

the origin of all things as we know it.

It was in the before time, before the mists were divided, or before the worlds and visible and invisible natures existed, and before all things came to be as we now know them.

It was in the before time that the Great Mother, Anu, and All-kindly Father, Dagda, ever made love upon their bed, the Great Sea of Endless Potentiality. (Among the Celts the Mother was also known variously as Danu, Ana, Don, and Aine. Affectionately called by us “the good-at-everything-god,” the All-kindly Father could also be called Bile and Beli Mawr.) But in all, their love was all, and always the concord of their being.

So it happened, having ever loved and loving yet, that the Mother fell asleep within the arms of her beloved upon their bed. As she slept she had a great dream, and there conceived within herself. And the Sea of Potentiality swelled up, embraced her great dream, and fell back upon itself, silent.

Then the Mother's water broke upon their bed, the Sea of Potentiality, and spread over the face of it. From this the beginning of the Mother's dream came into being, as the music of the Great Mother covered the Sea. And the Sea of Potentiality swelled up, embraced her great dream, and fell back upon itself, waiting.

Now blood from the Great Mother mingled with her waters, as she brought forth the first-begotten, the daughter of their love. And they named her Spirit Fire, for she was brought forth of the Mother's spirit in the passion of their love. (She would be known among us as Brigit, with fire as her symbol.) And the Sea of Potentiality swelled up, embraced her great dream, fell back upon itself, and began to form wild waves as though of expectation.

Beholding the birth-giving of the Great Mother, the All-kindly Father was filled with overflowing joy and burst forth into song. So it was that the vibration of his song enveloped the Great Sea of Endless Potentiality, and light filled the Sea within, above and below, because of the undulation of his strain. And the Sea of Potentiality swelled up, embraced the great dream of the Mother and song of the Father, and fell back upon itself in vibrating motions and currents of potency.

From times past, here's one of my own efforts along these lines:


"In the Cave of Death"

In the Cave of Death beneath the Endless Abyss, there was nothing to be known. All was a "head in a bag." Yet something was not to be denied. Forward strode the giant, dark figure rhyming to her self as she went. In search of her self and seven periods was she.

Mighty stones fell into the darkness and color shimmered forth in her wake. Magical writing and symbols appeared in swirls and diagrams as a luminescent testimony to her being. The Sea parted before her as the mountains surged upward seeking the lost home of her apron.

Her youth preceded her even as her age marked her. Perhaps it was this that caused the changes though some say that it was the search for her sister-self.

The Sun and the Moon came forth to mark the eons of her passing. Life marveled at her endless age, yet there was a point where all came together again. It was so fated even as the birth of no thing marked the endless change.

No thing and its sister sang across the ages. The Sun and the Moon sought one another. The Seasons came on the Winds and the Trees remembered their seeds. The Land swelled in her belly and the Stars wandered as cattle across the night sky. The hammer of awareness shaped the Sky into a cauldron in which to serve the cosmic stews, even as the source of plenty sought refuge from chaos.

Yet in it all her sadness was uplifted by the joys of her coming lovers even as her youth was stolen seven times the number of infinity from her. Yet hope and love belied this grim vision and a kiss reshaped her misshapen form into loveliness once again.

A lover found and a world renewed as the doorway was passed by the Old One and she became the Young One once more. A memory shaped a name and an apron sustained the worlds as the Cave and the Cauldron echoed existence to one another.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Eamon O'Rourke]

So far the best version of an Irish/Celtic creation myth that I have found is the one given by Ollamh Fodhla in the Lebor Feasa Runda:


Of Tir nan'Og and the Aes Sidhe:

Long ago, before the dawn of the ages, there was naught but the depths of a vast emptiness which was the goddess Domnann, who existed from the beginning of time, dwelling alone without companionship until at last there came forth from out of the shadows of her darkness, Net, the god of disruption. And through the power of his will Net did cause the stillness of Domnann’s void to be disturbed so that the darkness became divided and matter and form took shape where before there was only space and emptiness. And into this void was born Ernmas, the goddess of the earth, and Tuireann the god of the sky. And Ernmas did lie beneath Tuireann so that she was covered by him and from their union was born Bel, the god of the sun, and Danand, the goddess of the moon.

And the brightness of the sun shone upon the earth during the day, and the light of the moon by night. Great was the warmth and brilliance of Bel, which caused Danand to be filled with desire and longing for him, so that she was wont to follow after him as he traversed the heavens. Through her wiles she did seduce him and they became lovers. From their union was born the race of gods who are called the Aes Sidhe, and who were known of old as the Tuatha Dé Dannan, or People of Danand.

Many were the number of the Tuatha Dé Dannan, and among them were Lir, lord of the depths of the oceans; and Manannan his son, ruler of the waves of the seas; and Dagda the good, who is a generous helper unto all; and his daughter, Brighid the maiden, protectress of growing things; and Diancecht the healer, physician of the gods; and Goibniu the smith, master of the forge and metalwork; and Oghma the eloquent, greatest of all bards and scholars; and Nuada, the warrior of the gods and defender of their race; and Midhir, guardian of the treasures that lie buried deep beneath the earth. These and many more numbered among the Tuatha Dé Dannan.

Yet the Tuatha Dé Dannan were not the only children who were born to the generation of Tuireann and Ernmass, for there existed an elder race of beings called the Formoraig who likewise came forth from their union. But so wicked and malevolent were these monstrous creatures that Tuireann could not bear to look upon them, and he ordained that they should be cast into the sea. But the sea did not consume them, and the Formoraig took to living amidst the waters of the ocean, and they did travel upon its waves. And in the cold, dark, northern lands of the earth they made their kingdom, far from Tuireann’s gaze.

And so the Formoraig being banished from the fellowship of the Tuatha Dé Dannan came to dwell in Lochlann, on account of their great cruelty and ruthlessness; all save but one named Samthainn, who in his youth was beloved by all the gods for his playful nature, as he delighted them with his mirth and merriment. In time he grew to a handsome form, but for the antlers that grew forth from his head, so that he was called Cerna, meaning the Horned One, by all the Tuatha Dé Dannan. And he was given charge of watching over their flocks in the fields and the herds of animals that dwelt in the forests of their country which was called Tir nan’Og.

Now Tir nan’Og was an island that lay far out to sea, beyond the north winds, in the midst of the great ocean; and it was the fairest of all places in the world. In the heart of that isle spread a vast plain called Mag Mell. Broad and green were its fields and meadows, where grew countless groves of apple trees upon whose silver branches were borne golden fruits; so that it was sometimes called Emhain Abhlach, the Isle of Apples.

Upon this fair plain stood the Tobar Segais, or Well of Knowledge, from which five streams did flow. There five salmon did swim who fed upon the nuts of nine hazel trees that grew about the well. Fine was the weather there, and age came not to those who dwelt in that land, but all who lived there did remain young and strong and beautiful.

And those who did dwell there had built four magnificent cities; Fálias to the north, Gorias to the east, Findias to the south, and Murias to the west. In each of these four cities there stood a watchtower overlooking the land of Tir nan’Og wherein four great masters of knowledge and learning, skilled in the arts of enchantment and magic held forth. Morfesa of Falias, Esras of Gorias, Uiscias of Findias, and Semias of Murias. They were the guardians of four great treasures, and were the teachers of the Aes Sidhe from whom they learned great wisdom and skills.

And it happened that one day Brighid, the daughter of Dagda, was alone having wandered into the wilderness, for she was fond of all manner of herbs and green things and had great knowledge of their powers and uses. And in her wandering she ventured into the realm of Cerna who dwelt deep in the forests and was master of all the animals who lived there; for he more than any of the other gods was the most wild and feral among them.

Now Cerna had never seen such a fair and beautiful maiden as Brighid, and no sooner had he caught but a glimpse of her was he smitten with a deep longing to have her. But frightened was she of his strange appearance, for he was arrayed in rustic apparel wearing garments of green oak leaves and having antlers upon his head, so that she fled from his company. Yet did Cerna pursue her until she relented and the two became lovers, and from their union was born the race of man.

This did not bode well for Brighid for she was much beloved by Tuireann, and when he discovered her tryst with Cerna he set about to punish them. Taking a blade forged by Goibniu, Tuireann gave it unto Brian, and told him to go forth to the realm of Cerna and lay waste to it, so that the race of man could no longer look only to their father, the horned one, to aid them in seeking their livelihood by hunting and herding the beasts which he ruled, but that they should thereafter have to seek out the other gods of the Tuatha Dé Dannan to assist them in their toils and labours in raising crops by the sweat of their brows.

And because mankind had been conceived from the tryst of Brighid with the Horned One, Tuireann decreed that the race of man should not bide in the landof Tir nan’Og, but that they must forever dwell in the mortal lands of the earth. And for this reason their life there would not be unending, but that they should be mortal, wherefore age and death would come to them. Then did he cause a veil of mist to fall about Tir nan’Og so that it disappeared and could not be found by those who did dwell in the mortal world.

And after this was accomplished, Tuireann banished Cerna from the land of Tir nan’Og and sent him thenceforth unto Tech Duinn, the realm of ghosts and departed spirits; taking from him his oaken staff and giving him a crown of holly leaves, saying, “Thou art Donn, the dark one, for thou hast brought death upon those whom thou hast given life. Depart now from this land and go forth to rule over the kingdom of the dead.”

And when Cerna had taken the crown of holly leaves given him by Tuireann, the leaves of oak that made up the vestments of his apparel, which formerly appeared green and bright, began to wither and fade. Then did Cerna speak unto Tuireann, saying, “I shall not bide there alone,” and he told Tuireann that while Brighid was with him she had eaten of the berries of the rowan that grew amid the trees of his forest, and because she had partaken of them she was bound to dwell with him. Unto which Tuireann replied “Only for a season.”

And Tuireann decreed that from Imbolc to Samhain, the goddess Brighid would dwell among the Tuatha Dé Dannan and thereafter, while in the realm of the dead, she should not be seen in the shape of the beautiful maiden that had filled Cerna’s heart with longing, but as Morrigan, a haggard old crone who appears to wayfarers as three dark birds of death, Nemain, Macha and Badb, who stand at the entrance to Tech Duinn croaking out the warning “Do not enter, keep away, pass by!”

And so it came to pass that when Brighid went forth to dwell in the land of the dead each Samhain at the ending of the harvest season, the earth became dark and cold, and growing things would wither and fade, so that during this season the race of man might survive only by bringing death and slaughter to the beasts of the forests and fields.

But upon her return to Tir nan’Og each spring she would go at dawn on the morning of Imbolc to the well of youth and drink the water therefrom and be transformed once again into a fair and beautiful maiden whose touch turns the grass to green once more. Then would the days grow longer and brighter, and the earth become bountiful once again; and so men would return to the plough and seek the blessings of the gods upon their crops.

And as a reminder to all that life and death are forever connected one to the other, it was the legacy of Cerna that the serpent, whose bite is the most deadly of all creatures, should come forth from the depths of the earth each spring to bide among the forests and fields as a symbol that death is ever present wherever there is life. Yet even as the serpent doth shed its skin to be renewed, so too does new life come forth from death also.

[Noinden]

So far the best version of an Irish/Celtic creation myth that I have found is the one given by Ollamh Fodhla in the Lebor Feasa Runda:


What makes this the best? Why does there have to be a "creation myth" at all? Oh and there is no such deity as Cerna. There is a place but not a deity ';)

[Nuadu]

It is remarkable to me, as a person raised from birth speaking English who is learning Scottish Gaelic as an adult that there is a very strong tendancy to link people as "of a place" within a multiple aspects of the language (Scottish Gaelic). There are nuances which suggest that the people are not necessarily separate from the land.
That is interesting, I dont know about scottish but IMO its also interesting that Irish has very little in the way of possessive terms. I have a car would be Tá Gluaistáin agam, agam being Ag mé, with me - I have a car with me. So rather then possessing the car the car is independant of the individual. Maybe its a tribal thing over all, We belong to the land but possessions belong to the group. There's alot to be said for learning a language to understand a culture.


I would agree that the invasions were a nation-wide creation story. Daithi OhOgain (my accent marks aren't working for me today) has suggested that the invasion stories were written down at a time when the island was being overtaken by norsemen, and other heathens()...and that the particular way the invasions were put together was supposed to be a 'spell', of sorts...a way of making the people of the island 'as one'...to withstand the onslaught: physical, mental, and otherwise and to prevail as "Irishmen".
That is possible, we live on an island and even though there was no large scale occupation here from the neolithic til the 9th century viking invasion its a good rationalism of the motif. F.J. Byrne has another theory based on the genealogies that places the invasion motif at an earlier date. He believes the motif was common in the genealogies prior to the 9th century mentioning the destruction of dindrig the origin myth of the Lagin tribe as an archetypal invasion story. If the stories like those in some genealogies can be said to predate the 9th century then the invasions would date earlier then the vikings.

I'm not sure you "lost" your creation story, as much as I think it exists in multiple, vaguely different, tellings by tradition-bearers (in the native language). It does not prevail, however, as something that "writing" factions (such as the church, or publishers--remember, they used to be one in the same) care to record for all posterity....and it probably would no longer be recognized as a "creation" story, as much as "sgeulachdan"....that are only relevant as relics of the past
There are creation stories thats true but theyre regional/territorial ones more then island wide ones. We have things like the finding of the boyne and the Cailleach hurling stones about making mountains and milking her famous cow creating rivers. Theres even a creation story for the Isle of Mann where Fionn hurls rocks into the sea like the Cailleach but nothing resembling an Island wide myth for us. That I know of anyway.
TBH I was just thinking about the way we view travelling to the afterlife in folklore and I wonder if its possible that there were creation myths for the whole Island but not a single myth embraced by the Island as a whole?
Maybe theyd be influenced regionally anyway like the afterlife cos in coastal area's you'll travel out across the sea or to a nearby Island and inland area's see you travelling to a specific Sidhe place in the local area.
Maybe an inland creation myth could have taken the form of A Cailleach/sovereignty goddess and otherworld her cow inland (Cos of farming etc...) and something similar with an otherworld fish emerging from the depths on the coasts...

I really wish I could find where I had read it but a website suggested that Danu was the mother goddess, she poured water onto the land and there sprouted a big tree (tree of life?), called Bile, from which together the first life was created. Probably an elaborate fabrication wasn't a bad read .

That sounds similar to the creation myth written by Peter Berrisford Ellis. Its an interesting one for me because I see modern druidrys influence in it and its sort of like a people (If you could call Celtic Pagans a people) developing their own folklore. Im a big fan of 'ordinary people' and folklore its mucky earthy stuff. Like green grass coming from good soil I look at folklore as an indication of a living tradition.

I dunno where my head went there lol


To a Celt the answer to the question, “Where is the Center of the World?, “ had three answers. As an individual, his/her answer would have been, “It is where I stand.” This referred to the “gorm a cli” or the center of the self, the “bosom or heart.” As a member of a household it would have been, “It is the cleithe, the center pole of my home.” As a member of a tuatha or clan it would have been the Bile or sacred tree of the Gods.
That is a great quote Searles. Id say youd get a similar response from most Irish people today lol Its insular as heck but true. Though with that truth isnt the need for a creation myth negeated, other then for a clearer psychological expression of that concept of gorm a cli?

So far the best version of an Irish/Celtic creation myth that I have found is the one given by Ollamh Fodhla in the Lebor Feasa Runda:

TBH Eamon that is probably the best written creation myth Ive seen too. Its a literary 'tour de force' (Posh talk) that leaves the other creation myths looking like the work of a 12 yr old.
It has its faults, its very rooted in the early 20th century vernacular of the celtic revival lit. and the limited understanding they had of things like the language and the mythology. But since its supposed to be from that time period I suppose they are groundless complaints cos it puts the story completely in context with the lit of the day. Brilliant stuff.



What makes this the best? Why does there have to be a "creation myth" at all? Oh and there is no such deity as Cerna. There is a place but not a deity ';)

I agree that the understanding in that area is limited but its in context with the time period. Bel isnt a deity and neither is cerna, those are the product of early insular 'celticism' and mistranslated toponyms. At that time people really did believe Bel or Baal was a demon god/or later Celtic christian type god worshipped by Druids. What can you say to it, they began things for us.

BTW you identify as a Kiwi, do you have any kind of native understanding of how the Mauri reconcile the coming of their people to the land with the creation myths of NewZealand?

[Neville]

Here's what Carl McColman has to say on the subject in his book 366 Celt;

" We have No Celtic creation myth,That may be because the Christians who preserved the myths felt it improper to recount a story that contradicted the book of Genesis. But it may also say something about the Celtic understanding of the Universe-not as a stage that at some original moment was fashioned ex nibilo, but as an endlessly woven knot or spiral of existence without beginning or end"

This resonated with me simply because the symbology of the Celtic Knot and Spiral is so wide spread in the art of the time.

It can certainly be seen in the carvings at New grange and indeed many other ancient sites.

That said, Each Celt I have encountered has read the same stories and legends and drawn their own individual conclusions about the Celtic Path..

I am inclined to think this is as it should be, There Is no standardised version of the Celtic Path. If anything, to my mind ,The Celtic path demonstrates and celebrates a very similar kind of widespread diversity that seems to also characterise the Natural World..

If that is the case, Then that is the appeal of the Celtic Path for me and why I chose it.

And If I am honest, I dont really see a requirement for a Creation or Origin Story . As ever just my opinion..

Neville

[Eamon O'Rourke]

What makes this the best? Why does there have to be a "creation myth" at all? Oh and there is no such deity as Cerna. There is a place but not a deity ';)


It just stands to reason that the Celts, like their cousins the Vikings, the Greeks and the Romans would have had a creation myth; why wouldn't they when their fellow Indo-European who originated from the same source all had theirs?

To me personally I find the creation myth as told in the Leboir Feasa Runda to be the best because it expands upon what is hinted at in other texts, such as the Book of Invasions, which despite being tampered with and butchered by Christian influence, contains fragments of what appears to have been a Celtic pagan creation myth. For instance, the Book of Invasions tells of the Tuatha De Dannan coming to Ireland from the four cities in the northern islands of the world, bringing with them their four treasures which had been given to them by four great wizards - but no explaination is offered in the Book of Invasions as to why this migration from the four cities to Ireland occurred, even though the island of the gods is sometimes called Tir Fo Thonn or the "Land Beneath the Wave" suggesting that the island had sunk at some point not disclosed in the Book of Invasions.


The fact that the later Christian-edited versions of the Irish myths make no mention of a deity named Cerna is understandable, as the monks and clerics who recorded the Book of Invasions were trying to fuse the native Irish traditions together with the Biblical accout of the history of the world. To say that mankind was descended from a horned deity who was cast out of the devine realm and made to rule over the underworld to a Christian would be like saying the human race is the spawn of the Devil. But we know from other historical and archaelogical sources that the Celts did in fact have a horned god, one that in Gaul was referred to as Cernunnos (Gallic for "horned one") and that according to Julius Caesar's first hand account of what he was told, the Druids taught that mankind was descended from a god of the dead, known in Latin as Dis Pater, which is the reason why the Celts began their days at nightfall and observed the eve of dates at their start. Cerna was, after all, more of a nickname than a proper name, meaning "horned" (like other Irish names such as Cernach) and in the Lebor Feasa Runda it is applied to a deity called "Samthainn" and later referred to as "Donn" - both of which are attested to in other Irish myths and in them are associated with horned cattle.

[Eamon O'Rourke]

I agree that the understanding in that area is limited but its in context with the time period. Bel isnt a deity and neither is cerna, those are the product of early insular 'celticism' and mistranslated toponyms. At that time people really did believe Bel or Baal was a demon god/or later Celtic christian type god worshipped by Druids. What can you say to it, they began things for us.

It would appear that there were deities equivalent to Bel and Cerna that were worshipped by the Continental Celts and in Britain. There are numerous archaelogical and historical references to a Gallic deity named Belenus or Belenos who was worshipped by the Druids in Gaul at a temple dedicated to him, and in Welsh Mythology their is a deity named Beli Mawr (Bel the Great) who was an ancestral deity and brother to the Welsh goddess Don (thought to be equivalent to Danu). Likewise Cernunnos is known to have been worshipped by the Continental Celts and is found in depictions dating back as early as 500 B.C. He may have also served as the inspiration of the English folk character Herne the Hunter, who was said to have the antlers of a stag on his head and was a patron spirit of the woods of Windsor forest.

[Neville]

Hello Eamon O'Rourke

The following caught me attention,


To say that mankind was descended from a horned deity who was cast out of the divine realm and made to rule over the underworld to a Christian would be like saying the human race is the spawn of the Devil.

Primarily because of what I saw as a parallel.


Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renow. (Gen. 6:1-4)




This seems to be a reference that Angels ,having come down(Fallen) from Heaven (The Heavens).

I am taking your "Cast out of the divine realm" as my vague similarity to the events that even the Christian Bible hints at....

As you illustrated in your later post,There are many names for the horned one...Pointing somewhat intriguingly toward the possibility that these horned ones or cast out ones are variations on a theme...

The suggestion arises at some point that many newer religions borrow heavily from previously existing ones.

An excellent physical example of such plagiarisation isvisible for all at Knowlton Henge.

http://viewfinder.english-heritage.org.uk/gallery/450/nmr/nmr_4492_09.jpg

Thankyou for sharing your research :)

[Eamon O'Rourke]

Hello Eamon O'Rourke

The following caught me attention,



Primarily because of what I saw as a parallel.




This seems to be a reference that Angels ,having come down(Fallen) from Heaven (The Heavens).

I am taking your "Cast out of the divine realm" as my vague similarity to the events that even the Christian Bible hints at....

As you illustrated in your later post,There are many names for the horned one...Pointing somewhat intriguingly toward the possibility that these horned ones or cast out ones are variations on a theme...

The suggestion arises at some point that many newer religions borrow heavily from previously existing ones.

An excellent physical example of such plagiarisation isvisible for all at Knowlton Henge.

http://viewfinder.english-heritage.org.uk/gallery/450/nmr/nmr_4492_09.jpg

Thankyou for sharing your research :)

Yes, the Book of Genesis records elements that probably go back to (or draw upon parts of) a proto Indo-European mythos about creation. The bit about the "sons of God" or angels lusting after mortal women and begetting children by them who were giants is close to the primeval European creation myth that shows up as the struggle between the Titans the Olympians and the cyclops and hundred handed monsters in Greek mythology and the Frost Giants in Norse mythology and the Fomorians in Gaelic mythology - an ancient race of monstrous demi-gods who represent forces of darkness, hunger, ignorance, cold, winter and negativity vs. the gods proper who represent the forces of light, fertility, enlightenment, good, warmth and bounty.

In the Book of Invasions, the Fomorians were a race of evil beings older than the Tuatha De Danann, they were probably born out of the darkness that preceded the first light of creation from which the Tuatha De were born. The fact that they were not destroyed but struggled for supremacy against both the Tuatha De and mankind probably represents the balance of opposing forces that always exists in nature between life and death, darkness and light, summer and winter, predator and prey.

[Faol-chù]

That is interesting, I dont know about scottish but IMO its also interesting that Irish has very little in the way of possessive terms. I have a car would be Tá Gluaistáin agam, agam being Ag mé, with me - I have a car with me. So rather then possessing the car the car is independant of the individual. Maybe its a tribal thing over all, We belong to the land but possessions belong to the group. There's alot to be said for learning a language to understand a culture.

Yes, the Scottish Gaelic has the same way of showing possession....Things are (mostly) "at you", they are not "yours". There is a way to say "my friend" or "my shirt"...but it's interesting that it is usually used when referring to one's body parts or clothing...or when it just 'suits the tempo' in some cases (particularly in songs or poetry). BTW-in Scottish Gaelic, "I have a car" would be "Tha car agam." :)


F.J. Byrne has another theory based on the genealogies that places the invasion motif at an earlier date. He believes the motif was common in the genealogies prior to the 9th century mentioning the destruction of dindrig the origin myth of the Lagin tribe as an archetypal invasion story. If the stories like those in some genealogies can be said to predate the 9th century then the invasions would date earlier then the vikings.

That's just fascinating to speculate about..:)



TBH I was just thinking about the way we view travelling to the afterlife in folklore and I wonder if its possible that there were creation myths for the whole Island but not a single myth embraced by the Island as a whole?

Maybe theyd be influenced regionally anyway like the afterlife cos in coastal area's you'll travel out across the sea or to a nearby Island and inland area's see you travelling to a specific Sidhe place in the local area.

I think you're onto something..:)


Though with that truth isnt the need for a creation myth negeated, other then for a clearer psychological expression of that concept of gorm a cli?

Probably so...:)

Eamon O' Rourke said
It just stands to reason that the Celts, like their cousins the Vikings, the Greeks and the Romans would have had a creation myth; why wouldn't they when their fellow Indo-European who originated from the same source all had theirs?

One thing you need to keep in mind: The Greeks and the Romans had writing from a very early time. They were also imperial-minded. It would make sense that they would see a world-wide creation myth as relevant to them. They did not always have a creation myth that was believed by everyone in the area. What was written down just HAPPENED to be written down because it was sanctioned by the powers that be (whose charge it was to rule the whole area-and the WORLD). In hindsight, after everything else was lost, this is all we see, because it got WRITTEN. The rest were largely forgotten, except likely in fragments...if they were remembered at all.

The Vikings had a lot of contact with these imperialist countries in a Christian era (even though they weren't Christian, themselves). I suspect that this fact had its influence in the way that the Norse "creation stories" developed. I also suspect that, again, you have the "it got written" issue. I feel that there were likely other, slightly differing ideas about the development of the world...But nobody wrote them down.

It's not that I do not think that there were stories. I think that local (pre-Christian) priests (if you could even call them that) were likely aware of a 'form' for a story (or more likely, poetry, because it's nature made it easier to memorize), but changed it to suit the needs of the particular people who were their charge in the particular place that was their charge.

[Noinden]

I agree that the understanding in that area is limited but its in context with the time period. Bel isnt a deity and neither is cerna, those are the product of early insular 'celticism' and mistranslated toponyms. At that time people really did believe Bel or Baal was a demon god/or later Celtic Christian type god worshipped by Druids. What can you say to it, they began things for us.

BTW you identify as a Kiwi, do you have any kind of native understanding of how the Mauri reconcile the coming of their people to the land with the creation myths of NewZealand?

Indeed they began things for us. But when one sees obviously fraudulent myths appear out of thin air… one tends to be skeptical. For example the LGR is sold as “the real deal” ie authentic pre-Christian Druidic writings. Despite it containing obvious foreign matter (as detailed in my review) and the mentioning of a Deity that is not known in any other source. If this deity was so important. He would have been codified by the monks, demonized (as he’s a horned/antlered god type according to the LGR) or perhaps made a saint (unlikely). While it’s nice UPG for someone to create their own “creation myth” to sell it as the real deal, is dishonest. As far as I know many druids still try to be truth speakers/

Ok the Maori (note the spelling) have a number of Creation myths and arival myths. I see someone (I believe you) put the Whale Rider one up.

The most common is here http://www.laits.utexas.edu/doherty/plan2/liangcreation.html (http://www.laits.utexas.edu/doherty/plan2/liangcreation.html).

Each tribe generally has it’s own “how we arrived” myth. But the most general one involves the arrival as part of a fleet of Ships.


While I identify as a New Zealander (by birth) I also identify as a Gael by ancestry. My home city had a very small Maori population till the middle of the 20th century. Not due to some white mans genocide. But rather another Maori tribe from the North Island came and raided, killed, and ate many of the southern Maori. As a result, when Dunedin was settled there were very few Maori of any sort in the area, they were either dead or had fled to the relative safety of Stewart Island.

Don’t assume that because I am not from a Gaelic land, that I can’t or don’t identify as Gaelic.

Slan leat

[Noinden]

It just stands to reason that the Celts, like their cousins the Vikings, the Greeks and the Romans would have had a creation myth; why wouldn't they when their fellow Indo-European who originated from the same source all had theirs?

To me personally I find the creation myth as told in the Leboir Feasa Runda to be the best because it expands upon what is hinted at in other texts, such as the Book of Invasions, which despite being tampered with and butchered by Christian influence, contains fragments of what appears to have been a Celtic pagan creation myth. For instance, the Book of Invasions tells of the Tuatha De Dannan coming to Ireland from the four cities in the northern islands of the world, bringing with them their four treasures which had been given to them by four great wizards - but no explaination is offered in the Book of Invasions as to why this migration from the four cities to Ireland occurred, even though the island of the gods is sometimes called Tir Fo Thonn or the "Land Beneath the Wave" suggesting that the island had sunk at some point not disclosed in the Book of Invasions.


The fact that the later Christian-edited versions of the Irish myths make no mention of a deity named Cerna is understandable, as the monks and clerics who recorded the Book of Invasions were trying to fuse the native Irish traditions together with the Biblical accout of the history of the world. To say that mankind was descended from a horned deity who was cast out of the devine realm and made to rule over the underworld to a Christian would be like saying the human race is the spawn of the Devil. But we know from other historical and archaelogical sources that the Celts did in fact have a horned god, one that in Gaul was referred to as Cernunnos (Gallic for "horned one") and that according to Julius Caesar's first hand account of what he was told, the Druids taught that mankind was descended from a god of the dead, known in Latin as Dis Pater, which is the reason why the Celts began their days at nightfall and observed the eve of dates at their start. Cerna was, after all, more of a nickname than a proper name, meaning "horned" (like other Irish names such as Cernach) and in the Lebor Feasa Runda it is applied to a deity called "Samthainn" and later referred to as "Donn" - both of which are attested to in other Irish myths and in them are associated with horned cattle.


You know Steven I applaud your audacity at self-congratulations ;) However the myth is not so well viewed by the rest of the celtocentric Neopagan world.

[Eamon O'Rourke]

You know Steven I applaud your audacity at self-congratulations ;) However the myth is not so well viewed by the rest of the celtocentric Neopagan world.


Mr(s). Noinden, I have no idea of who you are, and obviously you have no idea who I am, but perhaps you could share with us some of your credentials as being a spokesperson for "the rest of the celtocentric Neopagan world" as you put it?

[Noinden]

Mr(s). Noinden, I have no idea of who you are, and obviously you have no idea who I am, but perhaps you could share with us some of your credentials as being a spokesperson for "the rest of the celtocentric Neopagan world" as you put it?


Mr Akins don't be so coy. You know who I am. The LGR has made the rounds of the Celtocentric part of Neopaganism since it's release. Many groups have reviewed it internally and rejected it as made up. Scholars similarly see it as a fake. It's been proven that the so called Secondary German source that you cite as from whence it came, has been forged, via computer translation (from English to German NOT from German to English). Similarly Gaelic Traditionalists and Celtic Reconstructionists will not touch it with a ten-foot barge pole. Simply put your book is a laughing stock in that part of Neopaganism. As are the transparent attempts to push it. You have been chased off of almost every list in existence. You now reside in places like ARD where there is no moderation policy; making pacts with other suspect Characters like Michael McGrath. Finally before you deny the fact that this is you. Your language and content match posts going back to 2008 when your book was released.

As for me?

I am Dr Gareth Damian Thomas. I am a member of the ADF, and an elected member of it’s Council of Honor. I am also a Neopagan of over 25 years study. I’m academically trained, and a mild dyslexic. My area is Chemistry, I work at the cutting edge of the Pharamceuticle industry. I have applied this in our previous discussions in ARD, when I pointed out the “Oil of enlightenment” and the “Talsimin to Lugh” both contained toxic elements. But I also hold minors in statistics, Religious studies, and anthropology (to use the American terminology).

Slan leat

[Eamon O'Rourke]

Mr Akins don't be so coy. You know who I am. The LGR has made the rounds of the Celtocentric part of Neopaganism since it's release. Many groups have reviewed it internally and rejected it as made up. Scholars similarly see it as a fake. It's been proven that the so called Secondary German source that you cite as from whence it came, has been forged, via computer translation (from English to German NOT from German to English). Similarly Gaelic Traditionalists and Celtic Reconstructionists will not touch it with a ten-foot barge pole. Simply put your book is a laughing stock in that part of Neopaganism. As are the transparent attempts to push it. You have been chased off of almost every list in existence. You now reside in places like ARD where there is no moderation policy; making pacts with other suspect Characters like Michael McGrath. Finally before you deny the fact that this is you. Your language and content match posts going back to 2008 when your book was released.

As for me?

I am Dr Gareth Damian Thomas. I am a member of the ADF, and an elected member of it’s Council of Honor. I am also a Neopagan of over 25 years study. I’m academically trained, and a mild dyslexic. My area is Chemistry, I work at the cutting edge of the Pharamceuticle industry. I have applied this in our previous discussions in ARD, when I pointed out the “Oil of enlightenment” and the “Talsimin to Lugh” both contained toxic elements. But I also hold minors in statistics, Religious studies, and anthropology (to use the American terminology).

Slan leat

Mr. Thomas,

I'm afraid that you continue to be misled in thinking I am someone other than myself. Also, I'm not aware of what you are referring to by the abbreviations LGR and ARD. I thought perhaps you mean the Lebor Gabala Erenn and Ár nDraíocht Féin, but are possibly misspelling them due to your dyslexia.

BTW - I noted in one of your earlier posts that you consder yourself a Gael; but Thomas is more usually a Welsh (Cymric) surname, isn't it?

[Noinden]

Nuada

Something that should be realized about Whale Rider is that the “creation myth” is for one tribe only, the Ngāti Porou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paikea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paikea)) there are a number of other myths for different tribes in different parts of the Three Main Islands, and also some of the minor protectorates.

Note http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_mythology#Traditions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_mythology#Traditions), thanks to the slaughter of most of the south Island Maori by a northern Chief with ambition their myths are lost almost totally.

[Noinden]

Mr. Thomas,

I'm afraid that you continue to be misled in thinking I am someone other than myself. Also, I'm not aware of what you are referring to by the abbreviations LGR and ARD. I thought perhaps you mean the Lebor Gabala Erenn and Ár nDraíocht Féin, but are possibly misspelling them due to your dyslexia.

BTW - I noted in one of your earlier posts that you consider yourself a Gael; but Thomas is more usually a Welsh (Cymric) surname, isn't it?

Steven It most certainly IS you, because you are giving replies that are almost identical to those made in ARD Alt. Religion.Druid. I’ve already linked to one. These replies are not repeat not from LFR, and yes I got confused between the acronym for the book of invasions, and Lebor Feasa Runda. It has nothing to do with my mild dyslexia, but rather it has to do with me coming of a 24 shift in plant, and not being able to sleep yet as I have an Audit to prepare for.

ADF (Ár nDraíocht Féin) has not been confused with ARD here. Nice dodge.

So Steven. It most clearly is you.

I consider myself a Gael because 75% of my ancestry is Scots and Irish. I am a member of Clan MacLachalan and clan MacFarlane, I also have a quarter of my heritage as Cymric. I do not hide this, however my Gaelic Sinsir speak to me more strongly than my Cymric ones. Thus I identify that way.

So Steven, please stop trying to pull the wool over our eyes. Be bold and honest and admit it is you, not Eamon. You have tried this on a number of other Fora, as Wyven, Sibian Druid, Lord Bhapomet, and many more.

[Nuadu]

Nuada

Something that should be realized about Whale Rider is that the “creation myth” is for one tribe only, the Ngāti Porou (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paikea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paikea)) there are a number of other myths for different tribes in different parts of the Three Main Islands, and also some of the minor protectorates.

Note http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_mythology#Traditions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_mythology#Traditions), thanks to the slaughter of most of the south Island Maori by a northern Chief with ambition their myths are lost almost totally.

Thats deadly cheers Noinden!


Migration traditions are numerous, and pertain to small areas and to small groups of tribes. "Certain tribes appear to have emphasised their canoe migration tradition and descent from crew members more than the others. In particular, the Hauraki, Waikato, and King Country tribes (Tainui canoe) and the Rotorua and Taupo tribes (Te Arawa canoe) appear to have placed special emphasis on their descent from a particular canoe migration"


...Each tribal group, whether tribe or subtribe, maintained its discrete traditional record, which generally concerned "great battles and great men"; these stories were linked together by genealogy, which in Māori tradition is an elaborate art. "In some cases the story is continuous and internally consistent from the migration down to the present...

That, to me, draws parallel to our own culture. Each set of people has their own 'migration' trad and their migration stories are recorded in their genealogies. We have different 'invasion' trads and the invasion stories are recorded in our genealogies. Its possible IMO that, we as an Island people like the Maori, had a creation myth for the land and creation myths for the people. While they were still within the cultural framework of tradtion they were distinct from the creation of the land.

The distinction being that the land itself, and its gods, are stable but the people, and their ancestral deities, are more transigent. What do you think?

[Noinden]

Thats deadly cheers Noinden!





That, to me, draws parallel to our own culture. Each set of people has their own 'migration' trad and their migration stories are recorded in their genealogies. We have different 'invasion' trads and the invasion stories are recorded in our genealogies. Its possible IMO that, we as an Island people like the Maori, had a creation myth for the land and creation myths for the people. While they were still within the cultural framework of tradtion they were distinct from the creation of the land.

The distinction being that the land itself, and its gods, are stable but the people, and their ancestral deities, are more transigent. What do you think?


If you ever want a laugh there is a book called "Ancient Celtic New Zealand" where the author (who is a conspiricy nutt, and Atlantis freak) claims that the "Celts" (He means Scots) settled New Zealand before the Maori and the traditional tattoo's and other aspects of Maori culture are all from this, not the Maori. I have a copy (it cost 90 fricking dollars new, but I got it second hand) and I Laugh my arse off every time I see someone mention it.

But that aside. YES it is similar.

I personally think the land the gods and the ancestors are all separate. BUT can cross. Tribal society always seems to aim for our divine ancestors. We even get this today. I would be suprised that in a few 100 years (assuming the human race makes it) that people like Edmund Hillary, or Winston Churchil (hisss) are not "ancestor gods" of some sort or the other.

[Eamon O'Rourke]

Steven It most certainly IS you, because you are giving replies that are almost identical to those made in ARD Alt. Religion.Druid. I’ve already linked to one. These replies are not repeat not from LFR, and yes I got confused between the acronym for the book of invasions, and Lebor Feasa Runda. It has nothing to do with my mild dyslexia, but rather it has to do with me coming of a 24 shift in plant, and not being able to sleep yet as I have an Audit to prepare for.

ADF (Ár nDraíocht Féin) has not been confused with ARD here. Nice dodge.

So Steven. It most clearly is you.

I consider myself a Gael because 75% of my ancestry is Scots and Irish. I am a member of Clan MacLachalan and clan MacFarlane, I also have a quarter of my heritage as Cymric. I do not hide this, however my Gaelic Sinsir speak to me more strongly than my Cymric ones. Thus I identify that way.

So Steven, please stop trying to pull the wool over our eyes. Be bold and honest and admit it is you, not Eamon. You have tried this on a number of other Fora, as Wyven, Sibian Druid, Lord Bhapomet, and many more.


You're an odd bloke, Mr. Thomas, I will leave you to your paranoid delusions.

[Noinden]

You're an odd bloke, Mr. Thomas, I will leave you to your paranoid delusions.

Very odd yes. But I can spot a AWB a mile off ;)

[odubhain]

The Irish Druidic Creation Story is as follows:

Chanting the Briatharogam of Morann around the Stream Strand of Ferchertne,
Ascending Fionn's Ladder to the Wheel Ogham of Roigni Roscadach.

Journeying along the Navel String of Mac ind Oic,
Chanting his Ogham both right-hand-wise and left-hand-wise within the spirals there.

Descending through Fionn's Window into the world around us,
along the Pathways of Cú Chulainn.

Rippling outward into the world from Mastery into Spirit,
Manifesting within the Mind through Song,
Being sung in harmony by a Bard into Being,
Becoming a Creation of the Worlds and Cauldrons.

Crann Beithadh,
A Tree of Life grows in the center of each realm,
It is the same tree.

Tobar Segais,
A Well of Creation flows forth over the plains of each land.
It is the same well.

Teine Éigin,
A Need Fire burns brightly in the darkness creating a Circle of Being.
It is the same fire.

Within each breast, in every world, along every stream,
Tree, Well and Fire connect all things,
The Great Song is What is Happening Now.

Óran Mór
It is the Great Song of Creation.

Here's something I teach about this process:

The Song of the Trees is the same song that Fionn said was the best music in all the world. It is “the Music of What Happens." I once had a very old and wise man from the Isle of Skye sing me such a song from his own wood wisdom using Ogham. I wish that my hearing were better and my recollection more accurate, but all that remains from his singing for me is the spirit of the song of many realms, a parting of the mists and the ever new growth of life in the world again. Here is a description of what I consider that music to be as I've attempted to reconstruct and embrace his song.

These words are from the Book of Ogham (the Ogam Tract of the Book of Ballymote). They contain the Ogham kennings known as Briatharogam. The tree tones associated with the stanzas and kennings are taken from Seán O'Boyle's, The Poets' Secretand they descend to the depths and rise again in the repeating of the song in its entirety (starting with the highest note for Birch or Beith. In this descending and ascension, they are much like the Ogham structure known as Aradach Fionn or Fionn's Ladder.

The tonal pattern is sometimes called the Greek Dorian mode. With regard to the Ogham tones and notes below: lower case type signifies treble clef tones and upper case type signifies bass clef in the Ogham that follow. The higher octave notes are in regular style while the lower octave notes are in boldface (here as capitals) type. I've used a "`" to signify higher octaves and a "," to indicate lower octaves.

The sequence of notes is similar to the tuning of the Irish harp that was reported by Edward Bunting to have been used by the traditional wire-strung Irish harpists at the Belfast Harp Competition of 1792. The major difference is that the traditional harp used G for both NG and ST where O'Boyle suggests G and F# for these strings/note. The NG and ST notes are known as "The Sisters" on the Irish harp and it is thought that perhaps they were tuned along with Q to allow different modal tunings to be used while maintaining the same fingering.

Here is Aicmi Fedha or The Grove of the Woods:

Aicmí Fedha

Aicme beith, (begins with an e` tone)
Feocus foltchain,
Maise malach,
Glaisium cnis,
Toil beatha.

Luis, (begins with a d` tone)
Lí súla,
Lúth cethrae,
Cara ceathra,
Bósheithe..

Fearn, (begins with a c` tone)
Airinach fian,
Dín cridi,
Comet lachta,
Cosantach ceann.

Saile, (begins with a b tone)
Lí n-aimbí,
Tosach mela,
Luth bech,
Lios ar nochtadh.

Nuin, (begins with an a tone)
Cosad sida,
Bág maise,
Bág ban,
Cumhacht sida.


Aicme huath, (begins with a g tone)
Conal cuan,
Ansam aidche,
Banadh gnuis,
Forghabh ar eagla.

Duir, (begins with n f tone)
Ardamh dossaibb,
Slechtam soíre,
Gres sair,
Stuama laidir.

Tinne, (begins with an e tone)
Trian roith,
Trian n-airm,
Smir guaili,
Mine is deilgneach.

Coll, (begins with a d tone)
Cainin fedaib,
Milsem fedo,
Cana bloisc,
Gluaiseacht saothar,

Quert, (begins with a c# tone)
Clithar mbaiscaill,
Dígu fethail,
Brigh an duine,
Milis agus searbh.


Aicme muin, (begins with a B tone)
Tresim fedma,
Conar gotha,
Arusc n-airlig,
Achrainn agus cordai.

Gort, (begins with a A tone)
Millsin feraib,
Sásad ile,
Med nercc,
Teach ar foghlaim.

Ngetal, (begins with a G tone)
Luth legha,
Tosach n-échto,
Etiud midach,
Cosan isteach na beatha.

Straif, (begins with an F# tone)
Tresim ruamna,
Saigid nél,
Morad run,
Draíocht mealladh.

Ruis, (begins with an F tone)
Tinnem ruccae,
Bruth fergae,
Ruamna dreach,
Athnuachan aois,


Aicme ailm, (begins with a E tone)
Ardam iachtadh,
Tosach garmae,
Tosach fregna,
Dul i gceann bhealachaidh.

Ohn, (begins with a D tone)
Congnamaid echraide,
Lúth fían,
Fethim saire,
Athair filidecht,

Ur, (begins with a C tone)
Uaraib adbaib,
Forbbaid ambí,
Silad clann,
Siolta dubhachas.

Edad, (begins with a B, tone)
Ergnaid fid,
Bráthair bethi,
Comainm carat,
Toil creideamh.

Idad, (begins with an A, tone)
Siniu fedaib,
Úth lobair,
Crinem feda,
Boghaisin de bheith.

I think that learning this song and chant will enable a person to open themselves more fully to all the possibilities that can occur in the three worlds and cauldrons. It is not as much an impact for me as the chant that Alasdair sang to us in the darkness at Bastrop but it attempts to kindle a flame from the embers that remain. I believe that one should sing it twice, once for the darkness of death and destruction and a again for the renewal of life and creation that comes always through the soul and spirit inhabiting new worlds and bodies.

In this chanting and singing of the Ogham Woods, I believe that all of life, death and creation are contained. They are a description of everything that is known in words and enpowered with the power of truth to create or destroy. I've augmented each stanza about the trees with my own Ogham kennings in an attempt to summarize the meanings of the other three as well as to connect and weave the many kennings, notes and colors into a tapestry of life. Any mistakes in the Old Irish are entirely my own. All constructive criticism and suggestions are very welcome as this information is a part of a book that I've written (and am now editing) titled, The Song of the Trees.

The above song is an exercise in freeing the mind and spirit from the shackles of the ordinary in much the same way that a choir exercise using the scales before beginning to sing or chant.

Is mise le meas,

Searles O'Dubhain

My thanks to the gods, to the Draoithe and Filidh of Ireland, to Sean O'Boyle and to Allasdair Mac Ranuill (who sang the boats through the fog of the Irish Sea)

[Noinden]

Searles it is a POSSIBLE story not THE Story. One has to be very careful how one phrases that.

[odubhain]

Searles it is a POSSIBLE story not THE Story. One has to be very careful how one phrases that.

Noinden: That's true but it is an Irish Druidic creation story. As we all know, there were many Celtic tribes with their own unique traditions and there were even many kinds of Druids, I'd say we have many creation stories if we dig around for them. The Irish were particularly fond of using alphabets for creation stories and as fonts of knowledge to boot. For instance, Columcille's life was filled with them.

The Ogham are the Keys to Knowledge and that ioncludes knowledge of creation, even if it is "a head in a bag."

Searles O'Dubhain

[Noinden]

The Ogham are the Keys to Knowledge and that ioncludes knowledge of creation, even if it is "a head in a bag."

Searles O'Dubhain

The Ogam however can only be dated to the early Christian period. Thus it is again a UPG not SPG.

[skilly-nilly]

The Irish Druidic Creation Story is as follows:



While your post is a very poetic presentation of Imbas, I don't really see it as about 'creation' except for personal creating. Creation, imo, happens outside one's head.


I enjoy creation myths generally (my fave is the Norse with the world-licking cow) although I prefer actually old ones to modern ones. How a people postulate the world was made is very revealing of their world-view.

In light of that, I find it fascinating that there isn't a pre-Xian Irish creation story. It's possible that there was one (or many) that was/were lost and indeed there are many many stories about specific places (the Dindisechas).

But perhaps there just wasn't a 'creation' story (apart from how specific places got their names or were made)--- the TDD and the other Members of the Pantheon aren't 'creators', they are complex interactive Beings but not 'All Powerful Made-the-Wurld' types.

I deeply love "the music of what happens"
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ift/ift02.htm chapter8
and I think that idea can be viewed as supporting a no-creation-story mythos. The world is what happens, we (and They) act in it.


I thought it over during the recent controversy about the New!! Improved!! Ancient Irish Lore!!! controversy, and decided that I'm fine without a creation story.

[odubhain]

Searles it is a POSSIBLE story not THE Story. One has to be very careful how one phrases that.


While your post is a very poetic presentation of Imbas, I don't really see it as about 'creation' except for personal creating. Creation, imo, happens outside one's head.
My post was mainly made of the Briatharogam with some interpetation of them. The Ogham are all about what has happened, what is happening and what can happen. That's creation and when it is provided by Druids it is Druidic creation.


I enjoy creation myths generally (my fave is the Norse with the world-licking cow) although I prefer actually old ones to modern ones. How a people postulate the world was made is very revealing of their world-view.

In light of that, I find it fascinating that there isn't a pre-Xian Irish creation story. It's possible that there was one (or many) that was/were lost and indeed there are many many stories about specific places (the Dindisechas).

The Irish Druids said they had created the world.


I deeply love "the music of what happens"
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ift/ift02.htm chapter8
and I think that idea can be viewed as supporting a no-creation-story mythos. The world is what happens, we (and They) act in it.


Just because creation keeps happening now and creates the future is no reason to not believe that the past was not created. We have the evidence of creation and creating all around us. the "Music of What Happens" is a part of that creation. Without it creation would stop and cease to exist.

It's not your every day creation until one realizes that creation happens every day. :-)

Searles O'Dubhain

[skilly-nilly]

Just because creation keeps happening now and creates the future is no reason to not believe that the past was not created. We have the evidence of creation and creating all around us. the "Music of What Happens" is a part of that creation. Without it creation would stop and cease to exist.

It's not your every day creation until one realizes that creation happens every day. :-)

Searles O'Dubhain

'What happens' is, yes, a way of describing the creation of every day.

Generally, however, when 'creation story' is discussed, the discussion is about:
"a Giant Cow licked the world into shape"
"God said 'Let there be Light' "
"The People climbed up the ladder from the previous world"
which are all not about 'what happens' but about 'what did happen in the long-ago'. I would make a distinction between a 'creation story' and your creative poetic outpouring. I perceive them to be two different things; 'a creation story' is a specific creative tale hallowed by time and re-telling.

Whether the Irish Druids did or did not say they made the world (reference?), "The Irish Druids said they had created the world." is not, imo, a creation story.

[odubhain]

'What happens' is, yes, a way of describing the creation of every day.

Generally, however, when 'creation story' is discussed, the discussion is about:
"a Giant Cow licked the world into shape"
"God said 'Let there be Light' "
"The People climbed up the ladder from the previous world"
which are all not about 'what happens' but about 'what did happen in the long-ago'. I would make a distinction between a 'creation story' and your creative poetic outpouring. I perceive them to be two different things; 'a creation story' is a specific creative tale hallowed by time and re-telling.

I teach a much longer form of this in classes based on materials gathered together in my book that I call The Cauldron of Formation.

Here's the simple form:


The Druidic Creation Story

Everything was a head in a bag and unknown.

Knowledge was hidden in two sources, the sisters that are the Depths and the Sky.

The first Druid realized the distinction between the two and was inspired with knowledge from both sources.

The Cauldron of Formation is a Well that comes from the Depths through Order and Skill. The Earth and its life are its children. "What has always been" is its other name. It lives in the tales.

The Cauldron of Vocation is a source that comes from merging Wisdom with Formation through Emotion. The Moon, actions and thoughts are its children. "What is Happening" is its name. It is a Song.

The Cauldron of Celebration is the Fire of Skill that comes from the Sky. The Sun, law and clarity shape what is, what might be and what will always be. It is found through imbas, yet governed through perception and association. "What can Be" is its name of names.

The world and all of being were created through a mating of the qualities that existed between the Three First Beings and within the Three Cauldrons.

The first Person and the World were created of the same nine qualities that are known as the Dúile.

The Name of the first Druid is An Dagda, the All Father.

The Name of the Depths is Domnu, Mother of the Fomorians.

The Name of the Sky is Danu, Mother of the Gods.

The Dúile are:

Stones - Bones
Land - Flesh
Life - Hair/Skin

Sea - Blood
Wind - Breath
Moon - Mind

Sun - Face
Stars - Brain
Sky - Head

The Three Cauldrons are:

Coire Goriath

Coire Érmae

Coire Soís

The Druids created the world because the first Druid was its cause along with the two sources of Fire from the Sky and Waters from the Depths.

It's as simple as that. A rich diversity of being can come from nine qualities. For a long time, modern scientists have considered that all the elements of existence we know about are shaped by four forces and three particles that are formed in space (both within and without).

I teach a much longer form of this as I've said. It is much more detailed.


Whether the Irish Druids did or did not say they made the world (reference?), "The Irish Druids said they had created the world." is not, imo, a creation story.

I think that it is found within the Senchus Mór where the Druids of Ireland were repsonding to the challenges of Christian priests. I think it may also be referenced in a tale of a battle of the elements between representatives of the same two groups. Time doesn't present the opportunity to give you the exact cites this morning here where I'm traveling away from home but there are cites to be had for those who look. I'll provide them later. [edited addition: - Senchus Mór 1.22, Ancient Laws of Ireland -]

Here's a version of how I think a Druid may have taught her student when first asked this question about creation.

I think that in the Vedas it is said that "In the beginning, there was neither being, nor not-being and that the darkness could not be seen for the darkness." Awareness was an egg that became self aware within this darkness and began to exist within waters that had endless depths. The first act of being was a single breath and the first act of creation was inner heat.

It was all originally a "head in a bag" but then something happened.

The story below is based on a tale from Indian myth and tradition [edited addition: Daniélou, Alain, The Myths and Gods of India, Inner Traditions, Rochester, Vermont, 1991.]:


HOW DRUIDS CREATED THE WORLD

"Then the student asked him: 'My teacher', said she, 'since everything in Creation is woven, like warp and woof, on water (i.e. the flows of creation or the powers of the universe which are brí and bua), on what, please tell me, is water woven like warp and woof (amhail deilbh, amhail eanglaim)?'

The teacher answered, 'On the winds (gaoth), my student; on streams of water and whirlwinds (sruth bua: caise uisce, gaoth ghuairneáin).

'On what then, are the streams and winds woven?', asked the student.

'On the worlds of the open sea and the enclosed lands and the columns of the sky (an fharraige choimhthíoch is tír is Maige Tuired), my student.' answered the teacher.

'On what, then, pray, are the worlds of the open sea and the enclosed lands and the columns of the sky woven?' inquired the student.

'Not hard to say', answered the teacher, 'On the worlds of the spirits of the air, the forests, the depths and the mountains, my student. (the Sídhe)'

Next the student questioned, 'On what, then, please tell me, are the worlds of the spirits of the air, forests, the depths, and the mountains woven?'

'Easily answered, on the wheel of the Sun (Roth Grían), my student.' replied the teacher.

'On what, then, pray, is the wheel of the Sun woven?' was the next question put forward by the student to the teacher.

'This too is easily answered', he said, 'on the houses of the Moon (Tiath an Éasca).'

Then the student asked, 'On what, then, please tell me, are the houses of the Moon woven?'

'Ni hansa, on the plains of the Cattle of Tethra my student.' answered the teacher

'On what, then, pray, are the plains of the Cattle of Tethra woven?' inquired the student.

'On the lands of the gods (Maigh Mhór), my student.' said the teacher.

'On what, then, pray tell, are the lands of the gods woven?'

'On the Cró of Lugh, my student.', was the answer given.

'On what, then, please tell me; is the Cró of Lugh woven?'

'On the treasures of the cities of Findias, Gorias, Murias, and Falias, my student.' was the enlightened reply from the teacher.

'On what, then, pray tell, are the treasures of the cities of Findias, Gorias, Murias, and Falias woven?'

'On the powers and skills of Draíocht and the mastery of the Dagda, the God of Druids, my student.' was the steadfast answer given by the teacher.

'On what, then, please tell me, are the powers and skills of Draíocht and the mastery of the Dagda, woven like warp and woof, like Land, Sea and Wind, like Sun and Moon, like the Cattle of Tethra and the worlds of the gods?', asked the student finally.

Then the teacher, instead of answering the question directly, warned the student 'not to ask too much about things that are not easily understood but which must be experienced and mastered through training.'

This is thought to mean that the teacher did not give the answer in plain words, but through the means of kennings or by having the student learn the ways through pathworking. It is clear from the Druid's statement, as well as from other passages in the ancient wisdom, that he had Tír na Bhithbheo (Annwn, Alltar, Tír na n'Óg, Tír Andomain), the eternal Otherworld, the unknowable, sacred reality, in mind within which everything else is based, and from which, everything is sourced and reborn. Here also is to be discovered and understood the fundamental relationship existing between the different components of the three worlds, as well as the balances existing between the deities and powers of Order (i.e. the Tuatha Dé Danann) and the deities and powers of Chaos (i.e. the Fomorii/ Tuatha Dé Domnann).

That's the way it seems to me from what I've researched, read and studied.

Searles O'Dubhain

[skilly-nilly]

Thank you for clarifying in English, that makes a great deal more sense :hahugh:


It's just not something I trouble about much, I extract from the Invasions--- 'we came to Ireland and there it was'.