What exactly is the Goddess to those here on MW?

[Emerald Sky]

Celtic Angel asked:
As for real Gods and Goddesses, I have a question.

<<What exactly is the Goddess to those here on MW? My religion prohibits the worship of another God or Goddess before the God of the Holy Bible. I have no problem with this. I am perfectly happy with the Holy Trinity. Though I do not worship her, I show Earth much respect and I like to think that I am connected with her. For me, she is God's ultimate temple and His most beautiful creation. I think of her as the Mother that bears me into the world, the Mother that nourishes me, and the Mother's arms that I will return to in death. I think of the virgin Mary as just one face of that. Since I do not have a Goddess that I worship I was just curious as to what it is that all of you call the Goddess.>>

I started a new thread for this question CA. As far as the "have no other gods before me" thing. You could look at it like this - the Christian God is omnipresent (everywhere) right? If he is everywhere and is everything, then it should follow that he's not only *in* the earth; he *is* the earth. So technically, worshipping the earth would not be worshipping other gods per se. It would just be worshipping a separate attribute of God. KWIM? Kind of like - someone may love *you*, but they like to compliment you on your eyes. Okay maybe that's not the greatest example, but do you get what I mean? Of course, that would have to be something that you feel comfortable with. If you can't make that connection in your own heart (about the earth being God) then it won't work for you, but that's okay. :)

As far as the Goddess... same type of thing. If you really think about it, isn't it kind of limiting to say that God is *only* one gender? God is everything. Male and female (or neither). Think about nature... everything has a male and female counterpart. Why wouldn't God? You could just look at it again, as a different attribute of God. And anyway, who's to say that Christian Holy Spirit isn't female? ;) Maybe she could be your Goddess. ?? Just a thought.

[Yvonne Belisle]

To me I don't really have a name for what I worship. It's kind of everything in one but not God as the Christians see it. To me it's an essence that is everywhere and within everything it has no need of labels or names. Those are for us in my eyes. I feel that everything is connected and that all of the Gods and Goddesses are but facets of that. I also don't consider it to be a specific sex but to portray itself as what we need when we call upon it.

[amberlaine]

I started a new thread for this question CA. As far as the "have no other gods before me" thing. You could look at it like this - the Christian God is omnipresent (everywhere) right? If he is everywhere and is everything, then it should follow that he's not only *in* the earth; he *is* the earth.

Hmm. I don't think that's true. Christianity is a religion in which God is transcendant--He is not the Earth. He is omnipresent in the sense that he is omniscient and that one can seek out GOd anywhere--but Christianity is not pantheistic. Christianity does not teach that God is immanent within nature. This is the reason that (according to their own doctrine) God send the CHrist to Earth as a man. God Himself is transcendant--he has no connections to the earth or the physical. But Christ, as a man, did. According to certain Christian denominations, one cannot access God except through CHrist, becuase God is *that* transcendant.

With regard to worshippping the Earth--I think that the Christian God would find the concept abhorrant. To honor and respect the Earth is one thing, but to *worship* the Earth--no, I don't think that would go over well.

I think its a beautiful thing for people to view other religions with broad, wide eyes to see the similarities and correlations with their own. To me, this is a sign of advanced spiritual thinking. So fro a pagan point of view, I think this God=Earth is a lovely idea. From an Abrahamaic point of view, I think i'ts somewhat implausible.

Edited to add: I don't mean to imply that if one chooses to see GOd as the EArth that they are *wrong*. I would never tell anyone his or her religious beliefs are wrong. This post is specifically in regards to the Christian theological view of God--not anyone's personal interpretation or view of God. Just so that's clear.

[Earth Walker]

What people believe (faith-religion) is political because it
influences their actions and because it it the vehicle by which
a religion perpetrates a social system. Politics and religion are
interdependent.
Every new social structure strives to come up with some kind
of mythology of divine origin for its values and aims. The
mythology is passed on for generations, and often its validity
goes unquestioned for centuries. For example, a self-created
male god who has no Mother is a totally insupportable concept.
It is, to say the least, not supernatural, but merely unnatural.
Nothing in nature parallels, let alone substantiates, such an
absurdity. Everything, even a star, originates somewhere --
every creature in the world has a Mother force. Obviously, to
deny Motherhood is to deny women.
Patriarchal religion is built on this denial, which is its only
original thought, the rest of the edifice having been ripped off
stone by stone from the Old Faith of Paganism. The christian
trinity is a word-by-word reversal of the Fates, the Three-Fold
Mother, the Three Graces. The Dove is the secred bird of the
Great Mother. The Great Mother was eventually incorporated
into the new christian religion in the form of the Virgin Mary, who
is today worshipped in an "idolatrous" fashion in the Catholic
church. Who absorbs whose culture is a crucial issue on the
cultural battlefield. Those who refused to accept this accomodation and continued to practice the ancient art were
persecuted.
Women's spirituality is rooted in Paganism, where women's values
are dominant. The Goddess worship, the core of Paganism, was once universal. Paganism is pleasure-oriented, joy-and feasting-
prone, celebrating life with dancing and lovemaking. Working in
harmony with Mother Nature, we discover and recover the All-
Creatrix, the female power without whom nothing is born or glad.
Male energy pretends to have power by disclaiming the female
force. Today, given the patriarchal society within which we live,
witchcraft with a feminist (Dianic) politic says clearly that the
real enemy is the internalized and externalized policing tool that
keeps us in fear and psychic clutter.
The Craft is not only a religion; it is also a lifestyle. In the time of
the Matriarchies, the Craft of women was common knowledge.
It was rich in information on how to live on this planet, on how to
love and fight and stay healthy, and especially, on how to learn
to learn. The remnants of that knowledge constitute the body of
what we call "witchcraft" today. The massive remainder of that
knowledge is buried within ourselves, in our deep minds, in our
genes. In order to reclaim it, we have to open ourselves to
psychic experiences in the safety of feminist witch covens.
A new kind of trust is the most important contribution that
women's spirituality has to give to the women's movement.
We learned we can trust our bodies when we learned we had the right to control them. We are learning we can trust our souls
through learning that our right to have them is rooted in our
recognition of the Goddess, of the female principle within the
universe and ourselves.
It is from this source that our independence comes.

Manifesto of the Susan B. Anthony Coven #1

We believe that feminist witches are women who search within themselves for the femal principle of the universe and who relate
as daughters to the Creatrix.
We believe that, just as it is time to fight for the right to control
our bodies, it is also time to fight for our sweet woman souls.
We believe that in order to fight and win a revolution that will
stretch for generations into the future, we must find reliable ways
to replenish our energies. We believe that without a secure
grounding in women's spiritual strength there will be no victory
for us.
We believe that we are a part of a changing universal
consciousness that has long been feared and prophesied by
the patriarchs.
We believe that Goddess-consciousness gave humanity a
workable, long-lasting, peaceful peroid during which Earth was
treated as Mother and women were treated as Her priestesses.
We believe that women lost supremacy through the aggression
of males who were exiled from the Matriarchies and formed the
patriarchal hordes responsible for the invention of rape and the
subjugation of women.
We believe that female control of the death principle yields
human evolution.
We are committed to living life lovingly toward ourselves and our
sisters.
We are committed to joy, self-love, and life affirmation.
We are committed to winning, to surviving, to struggling against
patriarchal oppression.
We are committed to defending our interests and those of our
sisters through the knowledge of witchcraft: to blessing, to
cursing, to healing, and to binding with power rooted in woman-
identified wisdom.
We are opposed to attacking the innocent.
We are equally committed to political, communal, and personal
solutions.
We are committed to teaching women how to organize themselves as witches and to sharing our traditions with women.
We are opposed to teaching our magic and our craft to men until
the equality of the sexes is a reality. We Teach "Pan" workshops
today and work together with men who have changed themselves into brothers.
Our immediate goal is to congregate with each other according to
our ancient woman-made laws and to remember our past, renew
our powers, and affirm our Goddess of the Ten Thousand Names.


For those who love, time is eternity....

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Mystique
Patriarchal religion is built on this denial, which is its only
original thought, the rest of the edifice having been ripped off
stone by stone from the Old Faith of Paganism.

Just a cautionary statement: Words such as these may be seen as a slam against Christians who view and participate in this community.

The Goddess worship, the core of Paganism, was once universal.

Um, no. It wasn't.

Male energy pretends to have power by disclaiming the female force.

Not all male energy.

In order to reclaim it, we have to open ourselves to
psychic experiences in the safety of feminist witch covens.

Um, no. That may be your view ~ but it's not a common thread throughout Paganism.

[eaglewolf]

...many (not all) women use "witchcraft" in the same way many (not all) men have used other religions in the past, as a power trip.

To me, the whole reclamation, payback ideal seems old, and belittles those who carry it.

Back to the topic of this thread...

...What is the Goddess to the members of Mysticwicks? How is She viewed? What does She represent? Is there a She/He/They, or simply an all encompassing Divine?

~ew

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by Mairwen


Just a cautionary statement: Words such as these may be seen as a slam against Christians who view and participate in this community.



Um, no. It wasn't.

[B]

Not [b]all male energy.



Um, no. That may be [b]your view ~ but it's not a common thread throughout Paganism.

The Goddess worship, the core of Paganism,
was once universal.

Um, yes. It was. :D

Besides Merlin Stone, there have been many other woman
authors who thoroughly researched history, and show that
Goddess/Matriarchal societies were once worldwide.


For those who love, time is eternity....

[Mairwen]

Um, I don't want to start an argument, but no. Goddess-focused cultures were not universal. Yes, they were wide-spread, but not all cultures were goddess-oriented.

[Naillosotarrain]

Bullshit.

Mystique, stop using the work of others and start using your own work for if you really have researched history, then you would find out that the truth is completely and utterly different; and that you need a serious reality check.

[Tigerwallah]

Many of the great civilizations were goddess oriented - Egypt, Sumaria, Mesopotamia, much of the middle east, northern Africa, etc. There were, however, just as many civiliations that were dominated by the gods and had a male dominated society. Of course, there is no way of knowing how it really was in the beginning. Archeological studies have only gone back a very limited 6,000 years in most respects. The earliest known religious artifacts have been of the goddess, however, who really knows what predates that? For all we know, the religious gender struggle has had many victories and defeats on both sides.

In history, we have a thread going about Akhenaten. He was the first person in known history to be a monotheist. He abandoned the religous/politcal center of Egypt (Memphis) and moved his monarchy to Al Amarna where he worshipped that the Aten - a sun disk with extending arms for rays that was both male and female and told the people it was the only god. He created a theological revolution in Egypt in 1356 - 1332 BCE. It was very short lived. King Tut, Akhenaten's son-in-law and succesor, restored the gods and goddess of Egypt as the ruling deities. It is unclear as to the exact date that the single male deity that we know today was first worshipped. The trinity is most likely a left over from paganism, the mother was cut out and the holy spirit inserted to keep it an all male trine. Isis, Osiris and Horus were an earlier example of the pagan trinity.

Of course, the Egyptians were amazing record keepers as they memorialized EVERYTHING in limestone, marble and granite. Other cultures at the time were far less sophisticated and did not leave the same historical clues to their existence.

As a Catholic, things did not make much sense to me as I was hearing them. So, as I started studying history, my favorite subject, I found Isis. Then I really found Isis.

Now, I tend to believe that when I die, I'll get on the Isis line, and someone else might get on the Shiva line or the Jahovah line. I also think that our souls make a journey that will take us to many different deities. Many religions breed followers that do not ask questions, only accept what they are told. I believe that these are fairly new souls who are looking for the leadership of a parent. I took Isis, almost as one takes a spouse, I chose her because she appeared as a result of seperating myself from my birth religion and she was the answer to my questions. I doubt all, so I really did look for flaws in my own beliefs, as I looked for evidence that my birth religion was indeed the truth.

Yvonne, I believe that we all have different roles to fulfill. Some of us are a little more militant than others. We all are like the gods and goddesses themselves. Do not get angry with Mystique for fulfilling her role. She is a warrior goddess, as am I. You are more like the goddess Ceres, wise and gentle in nature. We are all equal here, and everyone thinks for themselves. I find that we learn a lot from eachother when we do not agree. There are those of us who offend, but there are an equal, if not greater number of members who are more diplomatic. We need to be true to our goddess nature. All of us.

[Apotheosis]

Obviously, to deny Motherhood is to deny women.

I've seen a number of pagan creation myths that simply turn it on its head and say the the Goddess is a self creating force. Is not denying fatherhood a denail of men? I say it is.

But it's not really important, as patriarchy could be seen as the biggest case of 'overcompensating of percieved inadequacies' humanity has ever scene. Denying men can perhaps be overlooked as a reaction to women being the slaves and whores of men for countless centuries. Yes, this is hyperbole. I find dramatic overstatement to be entertaining. The point still stands.

But lets get it straight: creation is when the male and the female unite.

The rest is all magic.

I EAGERLY await the day (which will come long after I'm dead, I'm certain) when the Male and Female can be united in true love once again on a cosmic level. Too much BS in the way right now. *sigh*

[Earth Walker]

Originally posted by Apotheosis


I've seen a number of pagan creation myths that simply turn it on its head and say the the Goddess is a self creating force. Is not denying fatherhood a denail of men? I say it is.

But it's not really important, as patriarchy could be seen as the biggest case of 'overcompensating of percieved inadequacies' humanity has ever scene. Denying men can perhaps be overlooked as a reaction to women being the slaves and whores of men for countless centuries. Yes, this is hyperbole. I find dramatic overstatement to be entertaining. The point still stands.

But lets get it straight: creation is when the male and the female unite.

The rest is all magic.

I EAGERLY await the day (which will come long after I'm dead, I'm certain) when the Male and Female can be united in true love once again on a cosmic level. Too much BS in the way right now. *sigh*





When I speak up against patriarchy, the men here should not
take it personally...nor should anyone take it personally when
I speak out against patriarchal religions.
Politics, religion, big business, economics are all intertwined
and interdependent, and it has been this way since the rise
of patriarchy.
Understand that it is not only women who are oppressed by
patriarchy......men and children also.
When patriarchal armies began to spread out, they not only
murdered the women in matriarchal societies, but they also
murdered the men & kids as well. This was the way to destroy
what was in their way, and it happened in the Near & Middle
East, Asia, Africa, Europe, Australia, Hawaii, Samoa, Guam, and
other island nations, and North/South America.
It is the alliance of the above that is responsible for what is
happening today, rape, murder, suicide, hunger & starvation,
poverty, homelessness, drought, 100 animals becoming extinct
everyday, total disregard and destruction of Mother Earth.
I have studied the bible, koran, torah, etc., and I find nothing
in any of them that supports women, or any person that is non-
caucasian, lesbians, gays, or people of other minority groups,
Pagans, Wiccans, etc., plant/animal life, or the environment, etc.
It supports only males, particularly white, heterosexual males!
The bible says that it is okay for men to hate, beat women,
start wars to destroy "inferior people" and wars for greed(economic gain), like Vietnam, Korea, Kuwait, etc., murder the
"undesirables" like lesbians, gays, transsexuals......the "elite"
look down their noses at the poor and homeless while
"forgetting" that they caused them to be there in those situations. There are women among the "elite" who are
just as bad as the men, and I'll criticize them exactly the same.
I'll give you some good examples: Take a good hard look at
Dubya and the Republikans, Stockwell Day/Kanadian Allianz,
Vicente Fox in Mexico, or that Jaegar guy in Austria...who makes
Hitler look tame.
Consider Pauline Hanson and her One Nation Party in Australia,
she wants ALL non-white immigrants deported from that country,
she wants the Aborigines kept away from any/all populated
areas, and she says no more treaty rights or financial help, etc,
for them.
In Canada, take a close look at provincial premiers like Harris in
Ontario, Klein in Alberta, and now in British Columbia, with the
Liberals with Campbell aka Gordon W. Bush.
These are some of the reasons I, like many others, find that
patriarchal religions, particularly christianity, to be offensive.
I feel sorry for any person, female or male, that are caught up
in the insidious grip of any patriarchal religion!
Just my 25 cents worth.

[Tigerwallah]

I was sitting at work today, thinking about this thread. The more I thought the less clear the answer became. Why?, you ask. Well, it is simply because our knowledge of history is very limited. We can say that a particular culture was patriarcal or matriarcal, but that knowledge stops within a 6,000 year window for Egypt, and much smaller windows for most of the other cultures of the world. Who is to say that a region did not have a revolution before the period that was uncovered by archeologists. There is just no way of knowing.

In my heart, I believe that humans, as we know them today, were matrilineal at the dawn of the species. It would make a lot of sense. Females created new life and nurished it to health. Early males probably did not know what their involvement in the process was, and most likely, multiple partners kept males from claiming an heir.

What we do know, is that the earliest known artifacts have been goddess images. Similar images were found from Ireland to Central Africa, and everywhere in between. What we don't know is what really took place between 10,000 BCE and 6,000 BCE, or even very much of what took place between 6,000 BCE and around 2,500 BCE. So, our actual scope is very limited. We can argue till we are blue in the face, but we can not prove a thing.

Naillostarrian, Mystique has researched this subject. Short of getting a pick and a toothbrush and taking the next plane out to the middle east to hunt for clues for herself, there is little she can do but quote the works that her soul recognized as truth. I have not met an archeologist on this thread, so I am assuming that reading the works of others is how all of us get our information. Just a thought.

[Earth Walker]

I would love to be an archaeologist, and visit/find the old
Goddess ruins, but since I can't, I have used history books
like Merlin Stone's, and from other authors, and even :eek:
some written by men. (what was I thinking? )
I have a good library, not just a dozen or so books, but
about 1,100, which includes copies of manuscripts as well.


For those who love, time is eternity....

[Celtic_Angel]

First of all, I would like to thank Emerald sky for making this a seperate thread. *blush* That meant a lot. It took me off guard. *blushing still* Thanks.

It seems though that overall my question has not been answered and I think that perhaps I need to clarify the question. I am not in search of a way to tie God and the earth together, I've already done that in a way that works for me. I do not believe that God is male or female, though I do use He, Him, His to make it simple. I believe that God just is. Anyways, my question was directed toward everyone else.

What exactly is the Goddess to the individual members here on MW, not what the history behind the Goddess is or what the basic pagan belief system is, but what does the Goddess represent to each individual here and now?

I hope that will make things simpler. :)

C_A

[bluecat]

Dear C_A,

I am so very sorry this thing became a debating society for those who wanted to prove their own personal points.

For myself, I do not have any Gods or Goddesses. I see the Universe as a living being, much like the way of the Buddhists and some aboriginal and native cultures. We are simply part of the great being which is the Universe. Beyond that I really have no answers, nor do I really want any. There should be some things left to mystery, but then, that is just how I see it, I do not expect anyone else to see it MY way.

If you have a God or a Goddess, or both, that is your choice and how you believe. I do not believe that there are no Gods or Goddesses, I just have a different way of seeing things.

I hope I answered your question to satisfaction.

Blue

[Celtic_Angel]

:D Thanks Blue!!! Now we're getting somewhere! :D

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Celtic_Angel
What exactly is the Goddess to the individual members here on MW SNIPbut what does the Goddess represent to each individual here and now?
C_A

I thought that's what you meant all along, C_A ....:rolleyes: :D :cool:

[Celtic_Angel]

Indeed Mairwen that is what I meant, but it seems that it was not made clear enough for some the first time. :D :rolleyes: :p

[Tigerwallah]

To me the goddess is Isis, the great Queen of Heaven. I also worhip Sekhemet, the goddess of war and illness, but Isis is my primary deity. Isis is the gentle mother earth, and a nurturing mother. She is, to me, all things. I believe Mary, mother of Christ to be an aspect of Isis, as I believe Jesus to be an aspect of Isis' son, the Great God Horus.

The Goddess is a very real entity in my life. I feel her presence everyday, and I know that I am not alone.

Sekhemet is my driving power and my dark side. She once nearly destroyed all the humans because of the way they treated the animals of the earth. I often get that enraged, especially where endangered species are concerned. She is the force that gives me the confidence to live life without any fear, and provides me her divine protection. She is destructive when angry, but very protective and beneficial when appeased. I believe that all the gods and goddess are part of a omnipotent force, but are separate entities.

[Celtic_Angel]

Thank you Tigerwallah! :sunny:

[Methanespirit]

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being By Him, and apart from Him, nothing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:1-3) "....that they should seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him, though He is not far from each of us; for in Him we live and move and exist; as even some of your own prophets have said, ' for we are also His offspring." (Acts l7:27-28) . Is it human nature to worship themselves, whether it is the masculine principle as perceived in a football team or the feminine nature as perceived in the goddess/feminine principles in creation?

[Mairwen]

In the Gwyddoniad, we teach that our gods are "ascended" humans ~ and that as part of that God-Family, we too have the ability to reach godhood. As far as "worship", the Gwyddon God-Family doesn't want the "groveling" kind of worship, but they seek the love and friendship of the rest of their family.

[amberlaine]

Is it human nature to worship themselves, whether it is the masculine principle as perceived in a football team or the feminine nature as perceived in the goddess/feminine principles in creation?

I don't think it's as simple as that. I don't think that people who choose to envision Deity are trying to worship themselves. I think the issue is that G!D is so far beyond our comprehension that we cannot do anything but envision G!D as somehwat like ourselves--even when we know this is not the case. We know that we cannot wrap our brais around the power and glory of G!D, so we think of G!D as a greater "human-like" being--beause it is all we are capable of doing.

With regards to gods and goddesses go, I don't think they're "real" in that I don't think they are independetn, autonomous entities likeyou and I are. I think a universe run by a multitude of individual gods and goddesses would be Hell. What I do believe, however, is that each god and godess is a manifestation of one aspect of the greater G!D from which all things came. We see this G!D as having qualities of the feminine and the masculine. Perhaps we identify the life-giving qualities with Goddess, and the assertive, brash, warriorlike qualities to God. But even this in an of itself is flawed, because like you pointed out, G!D is not (according to the path I follow) soe glorified human--therefore, it cannot simply have glorified traits of humans. We ( humans from all spiritual paths, not just pagans) have created G!D in our image because it is a useful tool to do so. Christians and Jews do it, Wiccans do it, Dianics do it, etc. the very fact that we can calll G!D "he" or "she" is evidence enough that we envision G!D in our own image--but I don't necessarily think that's bad, unless we start to believe that. IF we start to believe that G!D is merely a Greater vesion of us, the we start to believe that we can obtain that same status, which I dont think we can. Our souls have the ability to develop and evlolve over time inot something gracefully enough and elegant enough to once again be removed from physical bodies and be free to unite with G!D once again as *part* of G!D....but we can never be equal to or the same as.

[bluecat]

I honestly don't believe the poster was trying to be simple with their statement.

I also personally do not have any Gods or Goddesses, no deities at all. I believe that the Universe is a living being and that we are part of it. I recognize that there are Gods and Goddesses and there may be multiple deities. These deities all have their own purposes and are not, IMHO, a part of a greater single god, that would be subjugating them as lesser or included deities and would be putting the "One God" idea above all else.

I respect your choice to believe as you do, when I followed the single god though I was not afraid to type, say, or write his name, his full name.

Blue

[amberlaine]

I respect your choice to believe as you do, when I followed the single god though I was not afraid to type, say, or write his name, his full name.

I'm assuming you're talking about my use of the term G!D. It doesn't have anything to do with fear or the inability to write the word God, it has to do with my complicated view of Deity.

I believe that the Ultimate Deity, Ain Soph as it is called in the Qabala, is so completely trascendent that we cannot begin to understand it or relate to it. That being is so fary beyond what life is that it has n will, no desires, no motives---it simply Is. As such, it inspires Great Awe, and in order to do that awe justice, when I refer to the Ultimate Transcendent Deity, i write G!D becuase i think that's as close as our languages comes to visually presenting the Awe that is Ain Soph.

However, I also believe that Deity is immanent in the physical world, and this is what I call the Goddess. I do not believe that the GOddess was the Ultimate beginning of all things--I believe that is Ain Soph. However, she is part of that power, sheis one face of that power.

This is an overly simplified view of how I see Deity, because to get into I'd have to talk about my own interpretation of the Tree of Life, and I don't feel like it and no one would probably be interested in hearing it anyway. Besides that, it will be in my book so no point to go at length about it here.

So, whether or not the poster was trying to be simple doesn't matter. It may not be "simple", but in my own opinion, seems simpl*er* than the case is.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by amberlaine


I'm assuming you're talking about my use of the term G!D. It doesn't have anything to do with fear or the inability to write the word God, it has to do with my complicated view of Deity.



Thank You, that helps clear many misunderstandings.

Blue :cool:

[amberlaine]

Most welcome :)

[Tigerwallah]

I believe that their are a multitude of gods and goddesses, but I certainly do not believe that they are "running the universe." I believe that they exist to guide us. It is our job to run this part of the universe. I believe that how well we do determines how far and quickly we move towards becoming part of that omnipotent community.

I also believe that they had a hand in creating the human race. There is too big a discrepancy between neanderthol man and the homo sapien as we know ourselves today. Scientists believe that both homo sapiens and neanderthol shared the earth for a brief time, and that, unltimately, we caused the downfall of the other upward walking primate.

I am sorry, my scientific mind rejects written word that has no champion in archeological fact. As a Catholic child, I had a very difficult time reading the written word, because so much of it seemed negative, and very little seemed to me, even as early as sencond grade, plausable.

Many gods and goddesses are not human in form. Take, for example, the Hindu and Egyptian deities, many are somewhat human in form, but have far more animal features. The goddess Nut is a cobra, Bast is a cat, Hathor a cow headded woman, sometimes, Sekhemet a lion headded woman,the Aten is they sun, Anubis is a jackyl, Thoth an Ibis headed man, Horus is either a falcon or a falcon headed, and Set is an unrecognizable creature. That was from Egypt. In Hindu, Ganesh an elephant headded boy, Hannuman a langur monkey, Vishnu is sometimes a lion, etc. I also believe that many of the gods/goddesses were once "living" as we know life to be, as they are often reffered to in Egypt as the Great Ancestors, and because I wholy believe that once I have learned my lessons well, I too will gain the knowledge that enables me to be a goddess or a god, and I will transend.

[Apotheosis]

I would like to humbly submit the suggestion that I find the concept of 'becomming a God' disturbing. It is another version of turning spirituality on its head into a contest where we are ranked in the end. The Goal should never be characterized as a reward. It cheapens the Journey.


If it was true, I'd find the amount of hubris required to believe it would be something that would keep you out of divinity for a very long time. I dislike the concept intensely.

The Universe has a power behind it, one that we reflect within ourselves. Gods and Goddeses are the creations of men and women to put names to the genderless, nameless, shapeless, unknown.

[amberlaine]

Those are my thoughts exactly.

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by Apotheosis
I would like to humbly submit the suggestion that I find the concept of 'becomming a God' disturbing. It is another version of turning spirituality on its head into a contest where we are ranked in the end. The Goal should never be characterized as a reward. It cheapens the Journey.


If it was true, I'd find the amount of hubris required to believe it would be something that would keep you out of divinity for a very long time. I dislike the concept intensely.

The Universe has a power behind it, one that we reflect within ourselves. Gods and Goddeses are the creations of men and women to put names to the genderless, nameless, shapeless, unknown.

Where else could you go with the knowledge gained over, probably, thousands of lifetimes? Eventually, you run out of lessons. Eventually you become perfect (and I mean perfect by human standards).

Don't get me wrong, I believe that there are lessons to learn at the next level too, and that may not be the last level, either. I'm still trying to sort out the truth of omnipotence. Personally, I believe that most humans are affraid to be that powerful. Even if we are. We like to think that there is some "deity" controlling everything. I don't believe that that is the gods/goddesses roles. We have ultimate responsibility for how we live our lives, the damage we do to the environment, and the relationships we have with others.

All of this does exist within the universe, and we are, each of us, part of that universe, therefor, part of "God" if that is what you believe "God" to be. But, if that were the case, why would your soul need to be eternal? Your matter would always exist within the universe, and the universe is an apathetic force. So, why would we be compassionate, devious, loving, hateful, etc.? The universe is none of these things, and needs none of these things to exist. This, alone, leads me to believe that the universe is only the arena. It is not the god, but the stage that is set for us to discover all of the mysteries and to act out our journey.

Of course, this is a debate that we could not finish here. The truth will not be found in the pages of a book or the ancient artifacts of a lost civilization. If we are lucky, we will know the truth within a billion years or so.

[Apotheosis]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah


Where else could you go with the knowledge gained over, probably, thousands of lifetimes? Eventually, you run out of lessons. Eventually you become perfect (and I mean perfect by human standards).


But thats not the same as becomming a God/dess.

We like to think that there is some "deity" controlling everything. I don't believe that that is the gods/goddesses roles. We have ultimate responsibility for how we live our lives, the damage we do to the environment, and the relationships we have with others.

Agreed, we do have ultimate responsibility. The Divine plays no real direct role in our concious lives. It is a common force, but it does not direct our actions. We do. It provides the bread, we decide what to put on the sandwich.

Your matter would always exist within the universe, and the universe is an apathetic force. So, why would we be compassionate, devious, loving, hateful, etc.? The universe is none of these things, and needs none of these things to exist. This, alone, leads me to believe that the universe is only the arena. It is not the god, but the stage that is set for us to discover all of the mysteries and to act out our journey.


I agree that this is just the arena, and moreso sugges that all the things you mention are purely provided for the entertainment of the spirit, dynamics to stimulate growth and change of the concious mind. However, if indeed we could transcend this arena, we would be part of the 'universal essence' again. At this place, there is no 'you' or 'me' or 'I'. If there is an omnipotent/scient force, there can be only one. (Just envision to the paradox implied by two omnipotent forces devoted to exact opposite acts to see why this must be so)

So to transcend this arena - which is arguably something I'm not personally very keen on doing right now - I believe the Buddhists and Hindus have it right on achieving a lack of attachment, a lack of self, of finding peace and joy in these things. Nirvana.


Of course, this is a debate that we could not finish here. The truth will not be found in the pages of a book or the ancient artifacts of a lost civilization. If we are lucky, we will know the truth within a billion years or so.


I would think that at the point we would be able to know the answer, we wouldn't care anymore. In that way, I find the spirit of believing that one acends to divine rank more objectionable (again with the hubris) than the actual details. It seems to emphasise some sort of gain, rather than understand that we simply return to the universal essence (probably loosing almost all concept of self in the process).

[bananabrain]

i thought i'd just stick my oar in to give a bit of jewish context... i rather like many of the ideas behind goddess worship. they are needed to counteract the stupid, but persistent notion that the Divine is basically a big beard on a cloud.

amber mentioned AIN-SOF - this is a kabbalistic term, used to denote the Infinite Divine, that which is Beyond - for those of you familiar with the Sefirot or Tree of Life, that which lies beyond KeTeR of KeTeR. however, i believe that all efforts to ascribe ANY characteristics, gender or otherwise to the Divine are ultimately futile, doomed by the nature of human language and perception. we're just simply not up to the task. the use of 'G!D' to denote this has nothing to do with fear, or grovelling, or even english. 'God' in english, means something entirely different. however, the term 'G!D' is an indication, at least for me, of what abraham joshua heschel called 'radical amazement' and profound reverence.

hebrew is a sacred language for me, from the very forms of the letters. our sages say that the entire universe was created using only the letter 'aleph', which makes no sound. the most common Divine Name is the 'tetragrammaton' or Name of Four and it is this name that we neither know how to pronounce nor are we permitted to. our treatment of the Divine Names represents our respect and reverence for their signifier. by contrast, there is no way to convey these concepts in the english language, so it's really just a way of signifying that 'this is something we can't really describe in english or indeed any human language. by contrast, because of the intrinsic nature of hebrew we are obliged to refer to the Divine Names that are rendered in that language by paraphrases - and paraphrases of paraphrases. it is common, for example, to use the phrase 'HaSheM' - the Name to denote this concept.

i could go on, but i'm not gonna.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[eaglewolf]

Kudos to all of the dizzyingly intellectual outlooks contained herein... my coffee tastes much better today, thanks!

~ew

[bluecat]

As I told amberlaine earler, her response was helpful and explained many things. :)

It's all good, ya know.

Blue :cool:

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by Apotheosis

I agree that this is just the arena, and moreso sugges that all the things you mention are purely provided for the entertainment of the spirit, dynamics to stimulate growth and change of the concious mind. However, if indeed we could transcend this arena, I would think that at the point we would be able to know the answer, we wouldn't care anymore. In that way, I find the spirit of believing that one acends to divine rank more objectionable (again with the hubris) than the actual details. It seems to emphasise some sort of gain, rather than understand that we simply return to the universal essence (probably loosing almost all concept of self in the process).

It is not hubris. I am not refferring to only myself becoming a member of the god force, but everyone, eventually. It would only make sense. I was trying to do the math, but since there are deities that I have never heard of, can only guesstimate that there is probably a god/goddess for every 100,000 to 200,000 people on this planet. My theory is, that the god/goddesses as we know them, are teachers, guides and guardians. With that in mind, think of the population explosion that has occurred within the past several years. My theory is not based on a reward, but a new duty, new lessons. I do not look at being a god/goddess as the ultimate reward, but as just another stage in the development of the soul.

[loopy]

It's hard for me to try and pin down exactly what the Goddess is to me. I find that if I try and put too much of a label on things, it detracts. For me, there is the Goddess, who gave birth to the God, and the two exist (metaphorically, spiritually, or just not visible, however you wanna think of it) with each other, as partners. However, the God is sort of in the background. I find that when I need to talk, I turn to the Goddess. Possibly because I'm female and relate more to other feminine beings, possibly because I was raised by my mother, possible just because it's in my soul.

I believe that the many names for different Goddesses in each pantheon are each different faces of the same Goddess, and that they can exist simaltaneously or individually. The whole Goddess encompasses every facet, from Hecate to Hera to Demeter, and can also exist apart from a single deity. Bleh, I don't think I'm explaining myself well. Wouldn't be a first. :p Ok. In a big tree, the Goddess and God would be at the highest branches, but the God would be a little further back than the Goddess. In the next highest level of branches would be all the singular names and personalities of each deity of each pantheon. Existing separately, but still part of the Goddess. (I'm eclectic, like to choose from all. :) ) Below that are the elementals, and every thing in nature that is not human, and then little ole' us towards the bottom, with human history and myth and religion being the roots of the tree.

Additionally, I think that the Goddess is alive in everyone and every thing, but that everything has its own personality which is shaped by experience and environment.

Wow. I don't think I've ever really mapped out what I thought before on this. Another reason I love this community. :D :D

[Celtic_Angel]

Originally posted by loopy
...

Wow. I don't think I've ever really mapped out what I thought before on this. Another reason I love this community. :D :D

I'm glad that you did. :D

The responses that I'm getting are great! I'm learning more about all of you then I had known before. Thank you all for touching into yourselves. :D I'm looking forward to hearing more. :)

[Naillosotarrain]

My own personal view on the God and Goddess is this:

I view the God and Goddess as Yin and Yang, in fact you can almost always catch me wearing a Yin and Yang neclace around my neck.

Yang/God (red) : as being the essence of life.

Yin/Goddess (black) : as being the essence of death.

[Mairwen]

We have a yinyang poster on our bedroom wall. It has the following words in the lower corner:

Yinyang is a term used in Chines philosophy to indicate the active and passive principles of the universe. The yang force represents the light, active, generative essence. The yin force represents the dark, passive, receptive essence. From their interaction, all things come into existence and are resolved.

Therefore, the yang essense is male, and the yin essence is female. We used the yin and yang lines in our handfasting last Lugnassad, and it worked beautifully.