Interfering with free will, magic v. prayer

[RoseKitten]

Ok, so while having a conversation with a friend I was told that a spell I did was "wrong" because it interfered with someones free will. For those curious, it was a spell to help him find happiness in his life, and to not be afraid of love. This was many months ago. I asked him how it was different then him praying to God that his friend find happiness because they're unhappy.

So, it got me wondering....

Why does it seem ok to pray for anything you could possibly want, both for yourself or others, and yet it is bad to do magic that doesn't just effect you? I just don't get it... magic couldn't be more powerful then a deity... so what's the hang up? To me magic is just a much more aggressive form of prayer, but I also connect my deity to most of the spell work that I do.

What are your opinions?

[MariThorn]

I see praying as similar to working a spell. A Christian or Muslim would ask God or Allah to help in a particular matter. They then leave it out there relying on faith for it to come to pass. A spell is the gathering of energy and sending it out for a specific purpose, sometimes you invoke a deity to help you with it. I've been to prayer meetings where the energy is so thick you could literally cut it with a knife. The difference is that they have been taught that spells and witchcraft are wrong while praying is fine. I have no qualms about working a spell for someone, but I will search my heart before doing so to make sure the reasons for doing the spell won't hurt anyone.

[RoseKitten]

I see praying as similar to working a spell. A Christian or Muslim would ask God or Allah to help in a particular matter. They then leave it out there relying on faith for it to come to pass. A spell is the gathering of energy and sending it out for a specific purpose, sometimes you invoke a deity to help you with it. I've been to prayer meetings where the energy is so thick you could literally cut it with a knife. The difference is that they have been taught that spells and witchcraft are wrong while praying is fine. I have no qualms about working a spell for someone, but I will search my heart before doing so to make sure the reasons for doing the spell won't hurt anyone.

My thoughts as well. I pointed this out to him and he said "well, I guess there really isn't..." So, he gets it (he used to be pagan). It just struck me as odd.

As to searching your heart, I do as well. I work sympathetic magic for anything truly important, and it slows me down enough to actually think about everything involved. As to hurting people, I am the same, unless I working a curse of some sort.

[Darth Brooks]

Ok, so while having a conversation with a friend I was told that a spell I did was "wrong" because it interfered with someones free will. For those curious, it was a spell to help him find happiness in his life, and to not be afraid of love. This was many months ago. I asked him how it was different then him praying to God that his friend find happiness because they're unhappy.

In my opinion, it really isn't.


So, it got me wondering....

Why does it seem ok to pray for anything you could possibly want, both for yourself or others, and yet it is bad to do magic that doesn't just effect you? I just don't get it... magic couldn't be more powerful then a deity... so what's the hang up? To me magic is just a much more aggressive form of prayer, but I also connect my deity to most of the spell work that I do. There are many different definitions of magic, but most of them are suggestive of an ability to "participate in the authority of the Gods." Essentially, a magician has a wish of some kind - i.e., they want a particular result - and they pronounce sacred words of power and/or perform a powerful symbolic act to make the Gods or the universe accommodate their wish. Whether or not the words of power or the symbolic act is successful, the attempt to acquire the specified result by such means is normally considered to qualify as some sort of magic.

There is also what the ceremonial magicians call "higher magic," which is not so much about having the universe accommodate earthly wishes, like getting a pay raise or having somebody hexed, but which is more about reaching a higher state of consciousness in which one becomes truly aware of one's higher self, or Will, or destiny (what-have-you). An example would be the "Conversation with the Holy Guardian Angel" in Thelema.

But how exactly is any of this really different from prayer, in principle? When a person prays to a God in the common sense of the word "prayer," they are petitioning that God to accommodate their wishes. I.e., they have a particular result they want established - e.g., the recovery of a loved one from an illness, etc. - and they are trying to convince the deity in question to establish that result in reality. In a way, prayers of petition are like petitions that political constituents send in to their representatives. It's not just asking a God for something to happen; there is an element of participation in that God's authority, an attempt to influence the divine Will into accommodating oneself. This is really not so different from casting a spell in which one attempts to influence the universe into accommodating oneself.

But as I said, this is just the common sense of the word "prayer." Prayer is not always a matter of begging a God to take care of something for you. It's not always about provoking an external change. In the more mystical sense of the term, prayer is a communion, a meditative state in which the worshiper unifies herself with the Godhead, like a fish in the sand returning to the sea. It is about provoking an internal change within oneself, by which one reaches a higher awareness of oneself and one's relationship with the divine Will or destiny (or what-have-you). In my opinion, the "Conversation with the Holy Guardian Angel" is not only an example of "higher magic" but of "higher prayer" as well, especially in the case of Thelemites who consider the higher Will of the individual to be identical with the divine Will of the Absolute.

Among the people of my own religion, the majority of practitioners distinguish between sems-neter, "serving the God," and paker-neter, "becoming the God." It is commonly assumed that the Setian path only allows for paker-neter and that sems-neter is "un-Setian" - which means that worshiping Set would be "un-Setian"; Setians are "supposed" to only work for what they want by transforming themselves into Set, not by praying to Him. This is based on the opinion that sems-neter results with disintegration of the self into a greater whole, while paker-neter results with immortalization of the self apart from the whole. (It is also based on a complete misunderstanding of what terms like "right hand path" and "left hand path" originally meant, as well as a false dichotomy of "religion versus magic.")

But in the end, I fail to see a difference. If I transform myself into Set (paker-neter), am I not disintegrating my temporal, earthbound self into a Self that is greater than my own? And if I disintegrate myself into Set (sems-neter), am I not transforming myself into Him? If I attempt to exercise Set's authority for the purpose of a spell, am I not unifying myself with Him in mystical prayer? If I unify myself with Him in prayer, am I not increasing my potential to participate in His authority and cast more effective spells? Whatever the difference between prayer and magic might actually be - and I'm not really convinced that there is one - I think it's safe to say they both have a common root in what the Egyptians called heka, "divine speech," which is derived from ka, "spirit double" (or "bull"): speaking from your invisible, hidden self. Because whether you're praying or casting a spell, you're sending something out into the universe that comes from a part of you that is not limited to the material world.

Concerning the matter of whether praying to a God for someone without their permission is just as bad as casting a spell for them without their permission, I say yes. But keep in mind, my tradition has no "rule" against casting spells or praying for people without their permission. I don't have a problem with either one of them, but I do have a problem when people say one is okay but the other isn't.

[CelticMoon11]

If you are helping attract positive forces into someones life I don't see how that is interfereing with their free will, they can still ignore those forces or block them out and walk on by... :)

[RoseKitten]

If you are helping attract positive forces into someones life I don't see how that is interfereing with their free will, they can still ignore those forces or block them out and walk on by... :)

So, then I have to ask, why is it that "positive" forces don't interfere, but "negative" one do?

[Kalika]

I don't think it is wrong.

I would hazard a guess that it is more that you did a "spell" and used the word that they think is wrong. :lol:

Spells and prayers are often not that different. Spells are just a little more... proactive, I guess you could say.

I also don't think that doing a spell for another person's general happiness is interfering with their free will. That is a very general request, and unless they WANT to be unhappy... well, you weren't forcing the issue.

Interfering with one's free will would be doing a spell so that he would fall in love with you, or doing a spell to draw a particular person to you with certain feelings involved, or doing a spell for someone to do something that you want - that is interference with free will. Doing a spell for someone to help them find happiness - no strings attached - is not.

That might be a good way to explain it.

Spells with strings attached are interference. :) Spells without... wouldn't be.

Might not be true in all cases, but it makes pretty good sense to me. :lol:

[Earthwalker]

I don't really understand what the big deal is about "free will" but that's probably because I don't put much stock in the idea. If we truly believe that all things are interconnected - are an interdependent web of being - then everything "interferes" with the "free will" of everything else all the time anyway. Causes and effects, actions and consequences... they reverberate through all of reality depending on your theology. Not doing something is "interfering" as much as doing something even if you do believe in "free will." If this makes any sense. >.<

[Kalika]

Magical interference that removes a person's right to choose.

Like my above-mentioned example - if you do a spell to make someone fall in love with you, that is interfering with their right to choose their partner. (Or attempting to.)

Maybe you don't call it free will, but we all have the right to make choices based upon circumstances for each situation. Do you want someone interfering with that in a manner that you can't necessary see or react to? You'd probably never know, but I don't like having someone trying to make my choices for me.

[amydoll1477]

So, then I have to ask, why is it that "positive" forces don't interfere, but "negative" one do?

because what you put you get back so if you put out or try to make negative things happen then it will most definately come back to you abd would you want that to happen

[RoseKitten]

because what you put you get back so if you put out or try to make negative things happen then it will most definately come back to you abd would you want that to happen

That's my choice to deal with, and doesn't answer my question.

If it is ok to interfere if it is "good" but not ok if it is "bad." This question, while you may decide you only want good back, is not based on what you want back.

[Ayrtha]

That's my choice to deal with, and doesn't answer my question.

If it is ok to interfere if it is "good" but not ok if it is "bad." This question, while you may decide you only want good back, is not based on what you want back.

I think you are not going to get a definitive answer. There are a lot of magic traditions with differents forms of believes in how its works and the ethos behind it.
The sensitivity of the issue can vary also, as some people can be very possesive/protective of their things and others mores relaxed, some can feel very nervous just at the idea someone making magic/being prayed over them (while others don't care).

I personally don't think it's a good idea to interfere in any form without asking first what the person you want to perform magic for really needs, and if it's ok to help.
Aside form the interferring with other person "free will", perhaps what we are trying to accomplish is not what its really needed or not the best way to help. That's why even if it's for "good", can be a bad idea.

[Windsmith]

Caveat: I personally disagree with what I'm about to posit.

The difference, in some people's opinions, is that prayer leaves it up to God/gods/the Universe, whatever, while a spell is the practitioner "playing god." Some folks think that it's OK for a deity or other supreme force to mess with other people's free will, because they can see a larger picture and know what's best, while us mere mortals can't.

I think that's bunk, but I can see where the belief might come from.

[aranarose]

Every spell, no matter what the spell is, interferes in free will in one way or another.

[Ivy Artemisia]

Spells are, by their very nature, manipulative. I know that the word “manipulative” has negative connotation, but it is what it is. A spell to get a promotion may interfere with others who want that same promotion. A spell to heal a wounded animal might interfere with them moving to the next plane, or keep them suffering here. A spell for rain may interfere with the lives of people- sure, it’s helpful in a drought, but car accidents will occur.

A spell cast with the intent to bring happiness to another person, while it sounds great and might work, may still interfere- that person may need to work through some issues or consequences to find their way to truly being happy with themselves. There will always be interference and obstacles when spellwork is involved. It’s not ‘negative’ or ‘positive,’ but instead, it just IS- like cause and effect.

The question then becomes- how far are you willing to go to for your intended outcome? Does the end justify the means? At that point, it might be a good idea for one to examine one’s personal ethical code, and to craft spells carefully to minimize unintentional interference.

[sidhe]

As a ceremonial magician, I have to say that while a lot of the focus is on elevating consciousness, part of the idea is that by being in tune with deity, one can more readily effect change in their world.

As far as the difference between "prayer" and "spell", it depends on the kind of prayer. A rapturous declaration of love for deity as a prayer is going to be different than any kind of spell, but an intercessory prayer for healing and a healing spell are essentially the same.

[Raven Reed]

I think that every attempt to manipulate the divine or supernatural, whether by supplication or more direct means are all equivalent. I see no difference between prayers and spells.

To me, if you did a spell to try to change his behavior in some fashion, that would be interfering with free will... Simply opening up potential access to love doesn't seem so bad to me. The 'not being afraid of love' thing is a little on the cusp to me, but honestly, there are worse things someone could wish on me. I would not be offended.

[*oonagh*]

I don't really understand what the big deal is about "free will" but that's probably because I don't put much stock in the idea. If we truly believe that all things are interconnected - are an interdependent web of being - then everything "interferes" with the "free will" of everything else all the time anyway. Causes and effects, actions and consequences... they reverberate through all of reality depending on your theology. Not doing something is "interfering" as much as doing something even if you do believe in "free will."

this.

[Sage Rainsong]

I am not one to worry a whole lot about free will and all. I think that too many people just automatically operate under the premise that interfering with another's will is just plain wrong. We do it every day. Have you ever dressed up nice for a date or a job interview? Have you ever try to curry favor someone in order to get something that you want or need? Then you have tried to work anothers will. Sometimes it's a good thing to interfere with anothers free will. What if I were to bind a trouble maker or criminal? What if I were to try to force someone to stay off of drugs? You can dress it up in harm nones and white light all you want; it is still bending someones will. Also sometimes it may be needed for your survival. A friend of mine did a typical honey jar type spell in order to sweeten her hostile landlords' disposition. Would I do the same thing? Absolutely. I'd rather not be homeless than sacrifice my livelihood on the altar of some moral platitude. Now I'm not saying that one should use people and move them around as if on a chessboard because that can bite you in the ass later. There is always a bigger fish out there. Also that kind of behavior can lead to a miserable life. However,if you need to do it then do it.
As far as prayers vs. spells go I do think that there are a couple of technical differences. Magic is an act of will. You are willing the universe to make something happen. One can call upon the aide of gods and spirits to help but you are still willing something to happen. In other words, there is still some level of control over what you want to happen. Prayer is stating your problem to a deity or spirit and asking them to intercede for you. You don't need gods/spirits to do a spell but you do need them for prayer IMO. Now I do, and have done both. I'm not saying one is better than the other it just depends on the situation. What spells and prayers do have in common is desire to change something. I don't think that if two people wanted say, to make someone change, and one did a spell while the other prayed that the one who prayed is necessarily more ethical. They both want the same thing, they are just going about it in different ways. Anyway these are just my opinions and obviously YMMV.

[wyrdwired]

I am not one to worry a whole lot about free will and all. I think that too many people just automatically operate under the premise that interfering with another's will is just plain wrong. We do it every day. Magic is an act of will. You are willing the universe to make something happen. One can call upon the aide of gods and spirits to help but you are still willing something to happen. In other words, there is still some level of control over what you want to happen. Prayer is stating your problem to a deity or spirit and asking them to intercede for you. :thumbsup:

Just to summarise the sagely Sage Rain Song whose comments I found useful and insightful.

Personally I've worried about free will a lot and these days want to be very sure of myself before I attempt to influence another's Will in a conscious and systematic fashion out of respect to them as a fellow living entity.

Sometimes it is necessary to act against the will of another or even of the many. For example if attacked it is wise to run or fight back. Better still act before you have to run or fight. See for instance Sun Tzu's "Art of War". True hardcore devotees of the wee blue boy would see an attack as their Karma but softened by the Lord and as Jesus said, just "turn the other cheek.", but even they Will War, if necessary.

Recently it rained here in Brisbane. There has been drought for eight years and most people, ignorant as they are, still complain about it raining occasionally. It interferes with their life. They get wet. They reckon they don't like it and it should stop. They forget the simple fact that if it does not rain the earth will wilt beneath their feet and then there will be but nought to eat. I revelled in the rains sitting sipping bourbon and cola under a motorway bridge with one friend and three newer strangers. The lightening kindly lend exclamation to the odd utterance. It was rather good and I'd been consciously looking forward to it for days.

The point about Magical Interference is that there is always a choice, free-will exists. Others, including the demi-gods, such as our local rain god/dess, also have free-will. That Will can be influenced by either a prayer for intercession, "Oh God if it is your will please let ... happen.", a rite of Art, "I Will have this ... happen, help me if you Will and I allow, oppose me at your peril.", or you can simply lend appreciation, understanding and acceptance, Love, to those things which might seem to be out of your control, or the opposite and hate that which is happening.

No matter how great your knowledge, spelling, grammar, enunciation, costume drama and other prompts are. No matter how intense you fervour of desire, will, or faith, prayer, is. Sometimes God/dess, or for you hardcore materialists out there, The Universe, will freely choose to say "No, are you quite sure you know what you want here? This doesn't seem right." or "You can't have that but you can have this." But the same thing happens, path of Prayer or Magic. But then some times you'll get exactly what you asked for, which can also be very educational.

Prayer is submission, Art is power though influence. If you're as smarter cookie as I'd expect to find on this site then I think you can see that power and submission are two sides to the same coinage.

My advice is respect others while you get what you want.

Peace out,

[Circe3]

I honestly don't think you're going to get one definitive answer. Paganism is an immense umbrella and the people under that umbrella have a huge variety of opinions. Personally I think if you asked him and he gave his consent and you did not use an actual person to try to find him love with, more of leaving it towards the universe to bring to him who'd be best for him then it did not affect free will. The universe will find him a person and he can choose to date them or not and there is his free will coming into effect.

It's the law of three. Personally I don't want to give something out that will come back at me in bigger form if it will be bad. I'd prefer to dish out what I wouldn't mind being returned but that's just me. Plus, why would I want to do something to hurt someone? If they deserve the bad well the universe will take care of it in it's own time. Karma at its best.