Dark Magick

[Deorwynn]

To some light and dark magick doesn't exist, however I'm always told that curses are bad and there are magicks that I shouldn't mess with. But, all that has gone and done is make me curious. What really IS dark magick?

[Caitlin.ann]

To some light and dark magick doesn't exist, however I'm always told that curses are bad and there are magicks that I shouldn't mess with. But, all that has gone and done is make me curious. What really IS dark magick?

Depending on how this goes this might be better suited to the dark side. I think as long as actual curses aren't shared this should be an ok thread.

I was under the impression that dark magic could be classed as anything dealing with curses/hexes to magic with a more gothic or night time focus.

[Deorwynn]

I don't want or need any curses, I was just curious.

[Xander67]

I agree..

Magic is an Art and a Science.

First you yourself would need to take a look at what you percieve demons, curses, and evil to be..

THere are some great discusiions on it in the philosophical forum..

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

To some light and dark magick doesn't exist, however I'm always told that curses are bad and there are magicks that I shouldn't mess with. But, all that has gone and done is make me curious. What really IS dark magick?

dark is whatever you percieve it to be. to me magick is a tool, like a hammer. so asking what dark magick is, is like asking what's a dark hammer. Are hammers really evil? no...do ppl who weild them use them for evil things? yes sometimes...but that's all in the intent of the person who uses it. to me if someone sets out with bad intent ("I want to hurt that person!!!") then that's "dark" but I also think there's a time and place for such things.

Mostly I think people say you shouldn't mess with "bad" magicks because there's probably gonna be some sort of consequences. With everything we do, good bad or in between there are consequences...so then the question is, are you ready to deal with the consequences of your actions whatever they maybe? and if not, perhaps its best not to take that course of action.

[Deorwynn]

dark is whatever you percieve it to be. to me magick is a tool, like a hammer. so asking what dark magick is, is like asking what's a dark hammer. Are hammers really evil? no...do ppl who weild them use them for evil things? yes sometimes...but that's all in the intent of the person who uses it. to me if someone sets out with bad intent ("I want to hurt that person!!!") then that's "dark" but I also think there's a time and place for such things.

Mostly I think people say you shouldn't mess with "bad" magicks because there's probably gonna be some sort of consequences. With everything we do, good bad or in between there are consequences...so then the question is, are you ready to deal with the consequences of your actions whatever they maybe? and if not, perhaps its best not to take that course of action.


I can understand that magick is just a tool and it's the intent you have to worry about. So, I guess it's just Dark spells, rituals and curses that one has to worry about in that sense.

For me, I think that Dark Magick deals with things that aren't as popular, like dealing with the dead and negative aspects of things without having a harmful intent... if that makes sense. *shrug*

[Earthwalker]

I don't really use the designation "dark magic" for anything, though I associate it with Darkness and its Mysteries as an initial reaction. I'm not one to pay much mind to the dualism that pervades our society though, with regard to Darkness, so what this actually means isn't what most people would think.

In a way I find it somewhat funny to think of "dark magic" as being what isn't popular, since wouldn't that include the extreme sparkles and light practitioners? >.<

[Shawn Blackwolf]

Hello , Deorwynn...

I have the ability to answer this question from
a ceremonial magick / qabalistic magic point of
view , taking into account the aspect of gematria ,
where words equal numbers...

Dark = 225

To Use Magic Or Witchcraft = 400

Therefore , we have 625 , as the sum...

In gematria , there is a +1 , -1 , allowance , generally...

Qlippoth = 626

Known as Shells ( cast off reality constructs ) , or as
Demons...

In Qabalah , they are associated with the reverse side
of the Tree , or what is termed "Mirror Universe"...

The "Darkside" , in other terminology...:thumbsup:

This is from my Tradition's view...of course , others
may , and probably will , have other views...


To some light and dark magick doesn't exist, however I'm always told that curses are bad and there are magicks that I shouldn't mess with. But, all that has gone and done is make me curious. What really IS dark magick?

[Xander67]

we were created out of darkness... that eternal void... out of which came light and then the known universe sprang into being.

I think the concept of dark and light is relative to ones own perception and how something is affecting them..

What some may view as a sinister act of darkness... others will view it as a blessing..

and vice versa...
Kinda like polotics, you can't please everyone but we have to keep in mind what is good for the greater good.

[Cloaked Raven]

we were created out of darkness... that eternal void... out of which came light and then the known universe sprang into being.

I think the concept of dark and light is relative to ones own perception and how something is affecting them..

What some may view as a sinister act of darkness... others will view it as a blessing..

and vice versa...
Kinda like polotics, you can't please everyone but we have to keep in mind what is good for the greater good.
Well said, Xander. :thumbsup:

[MidnightFire]

i agree with what has been said by most so far. light and dark is really based on one's perception.

i'll use an example from experience. a few years back, my partner had a co-worker that was just being a horrid cow to him. i worked a binding so that whatever hateful things she did to him would come back and the same things would begin to f*#! with her. to most that would probably be considered dark.

to me though i didn't consider it dark because that was the only option. the whole "send her love and happiness" thing didn't work and their manager somehow "never saw" what was going on.

going with what Faelon_Moon_Hawk said, magick is just a tool. killing someone with a hammer can be viewed differently, did the person do it out of hate or was it self-defense. perception can make the distinction very fuzzy.

[Spica]

In the hands of a balanced person I don't feel that curses are a "bad" thing. Sometimes intervention is needed, especially if the system cannot fix the situation for the person through laws etc. When it comes to personal problems like; "he hurt my feelings, now I want him to stop sleeping and loose his mind", I think such person needs therapy more than anything and time to heal their wounds. We all go through crappy stuff, meet horrible people and such, but we also learn from those experiences. Usually.

One has the right to protect themselves from those that wish to harm them, and the example given my Midnightfire is a good one. If someone is acting like a tool towards you and won't stop, even AFTER a personal confrontantion, you could stop that person from crossing you through magic. If they cross the line, even after being asked not to do so, they must pay the consequences.

[Shawn Blackwolf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzsL99OO8_s

killing someone with a hammer can be viewed differently

[Sequoia]

Thinking of magic in terms of "light" ie "good" and "dark" ie "manipulative, bad, evil" is... amateur at best. As most everyone else has said, energy work would be classified by the intent of the person doing the working, if you classify it that way at all. I really don't see the benefit in classifying your workings as "good" and "evil"... unless you really want to be some evil Disney character and rub your hands together and cackle after every working. :p

Interestingly enough, I imagine that the whole "perspective is everything" bit wouldn't make many people happy if they consider the perspectives of those they don't like. For example, terrorists routinely think that what they're doing is for the greater good. So bombing a subway or flying planes into a building are "light" deeds to them. I'm sure that giving their enemies nightmares would be "light" magic for them. But I doubt that their enemies would see it that way.

Energy is energy. It is neutral. What you DO with it... that's the thing you can classify. And even then, as my terrorist example shows, it all depends upon the perception of the individual.

[Ladysadefairy]

To some light and dark magick doesn't exist, however I'm always told that curses are bad and there are magicks that I shouldn't mess with. But, all that has gone and done is make me curious. What really IS dark magick?

To me , Dark Magick ..is morely some working with the darker gods..

and dabbling in something they've yet to understand , which can be bad..aswell for the witch who is in touch with the darker gods.

but any sort of magick anyone dabbles in can go aray..either you get something unwanted or something good..

it depends on the reason

[Rae'ya]

To some light and dark magick doesn't exist, however I'm always told that curses are bad and there are magicks that I shouldn't mess with. But, all that has gone and done is make me curious. What really IS dark magick?

I don't personally subscribe to delineations of black, white, dark or light magick, but I do recognise that you see it a lot in published neo-pagan works. In my experience, when someone talks about 'dark magick' they mean one of three things:

1) Magickal workings for the express purpose of harming someone, or for personal gain to the detriment of another person. They often define this as cursing or binding or the like, but the reality is that it's the intention of the practitioner, not the actual technique, that makes it supposedly 'dark'. This is usually a question of ethics more than anything, and is thus largely subjective. Some are stricter on what they consider 'wrong' than others, so their definition of 'dark' intentions may be rather wide.

2) Magickal workings that utilise techniques the person thinks are 'bad' or 'evil' or whatever. Cursing, working with demons, offensive magick, Satanism blah blah blah. None of those things are inherenatly 'bad' nor 'evil', and the people who define these paths and techniques as 'dark magick' do so out of ignorance, and are usually the same people who spread blatant misinformation about paths such as Satanism and Demonolatry. Personally, I would advise not to pay any attention to these people, because they don't generally know what they're talking about and they damage the reputation of people who don't deserve to be thought badly of. Incidentally... this tends to be the category that Christians fall into when they talk about magick and witchcraft being 'dark arts'. They believe it's inherently 'evil', regardless of who does it and what their intentions are.

3) Magickal workings that utilise techniques and practices that are often considered less safe or less palatable to the mainstream neo-pagan community. It includes the things that can get you in trouble if you don't know what you're doing, that have harsher consequences, or that can stir up things within yourself that make life difficult for a while. Things like Necromancy, cursing, hexing, execration magick, Shadow work, bloodletting or otherwise using blood in magick, working with Underworld or cthonic deities, working with Demons, utilising pain in magick, ordeal work, nocturnal magick, vampiric magick, working with the Qlippoth, chaos magick etc etc. There is nothing about any of these that is inherantly 'bad', but they tend towards pracitices that focus more on the shadow and cthonic realms rather than love and light and blessings. You can obtain profound growth and healing from these so called 'dark magicks' just as you can grow and heal from lighter practices. It's all a matter of perspective.

Personally, I'm what a lot of love and light focused neo-pagans consider a practitioner of dark magick, because I utilise those practices in the third category and I have looser ethics than some. But realistically, once you start talking with more experienced practitioners you'll find that they simply don't delineate, and the defining lines become blurred and irrelevant. 'Dark magick' is more of a concern of those relatively new to the neo-pagan paths, or those experienced practitioners who choose to follow a more altruistic, love and blessings sort of path.

[Rae'ya]

Also... I just want to second this:


Interestingly enough, I imagine that the whole "perspective is everything" bit wouldn't make many people happy if they consider the perspectives of those they don't like. For example, terrorists routinely think that what they're doing is for the greater good. So bombing a subway or flying planes into a building are "light" deeds to them. I'm sure that giving their enemies nightmares would be "light" magic for them. But I doubt that their enemies would see it that way.

It's all well and good for us to say that magick is neutral and it's the intention behind something that makes it 'good' or 'bad', but realistically, good intentions don't necessarily produce 'good' results. You can have the best intentions in the world, and still end up hurting someone horribly. Hitler had good intentions and there aren't many people who would consider what he did was 'good' (I know, I know, it's an awful cliche, but it demonstrates my point nicely).

Plus, I find people who think they know what's best for another person to be just as reproachable as people who do things purely for their own benefit. I dislike it when love and light focused practitioners put a lot of effort into healing someone or binding a criminal or whatever when they aren't directly involved in that case. That's the EXACT same thing as when Christians decide to pray for your soul to 'save' you from the evils of witchcraft. Doing that can do just as much harm as a curse, sometimes more. So good intentions aren't always 'ethical', and they don't always have beneficial results.

[Darth Brooks]

To some light and dark magick doesn't exist, however I'm always told that curses are bad and there are magicks that I shouldn't mess with. But, all that has gone and done is make me curious. What really IS dark magick?

It is a well-unknown and generally ignored fact that hexes and curses do not equal "dark magic." Even light can be used to burn or scorch, just as easily as it can be used to enlighten or heal. Take fanatical Muslims who pray to Allah for the destruction of America, for instance. (Or fanatical American Christians who pray for the violent deaths of Muslims and pagans and anyone else they don't like, for that matter.) Darkness can be used to protect and initiate growth, just as easily as it can be used to freeze and blind. In my own tradition, working with Set (a dark God if there ever was one) to encourage growth and evolution both within ourselves and within society is a common practice.

I highly recommend that you learn to think of "light magic" and "dark magic" as being defined by the source from which a person's "magic" is drawn, regardless of their intent. "Light magic" is simply magic that is drawn from the light side of nature, whether such be a bright and happy shepherd God, the sun, pretty wildflowers, unicorns, etc. "Dark magic" is simply magic that is drawn from the dark side of nature, like a wild and ecstatic chaos God, the night, cemeteries, etc. It makes no difference what the practitioner's goal might be.

I disagree with people who claim that terms like "light magic" and "dark magic" are meaningless because magic is "neutral." I certainly agree that all magic is neutral in and of itself, but this does not mean that the "light" and "dark" descriptors are totally irrelevant. But at the same time, I disagree with the people who claim that "light magic" is always good or helpful and "dark magic" is always negative or destructive. Both are neutral and can be used for good or evil purposes. They are not "light" or "dark" based on the intentions of the user, but on the sources from which they are drawn.

An example would be: riding in a Mercedes Benz versus riding in an eighteen-wheel semi-truck. Both are vehicles, and vehicles, by their very nature, are neutral. They can neither help nor hinder in and of themselves. Either one can take you to where you need to go; the difference is in how they are built, the particular type of fuel they require (regular versus diesel), and how one drives them. Either one of them can harm people when the driver is careless, reckless, or sadistic enough to intentionally try and run people over. But this does not make either vehicle "evil" or "negative" in and of itself. It's the same way with all kinds of "magic," however one chooses to define this elusive term.

[SerenityMoon]

...I want to know why some people insist on spelling "magic" as "magick".

[Sequoia]

...I want to know why some people insist on spelling "magic" as "magick".

"To differentiate it from stage magic."

That's what I've been told, anyway.

[Benvarry]

In my view, "dark magic" is a term best reserved for fantasy and RPGs; ideologically, it's a carryover from the dualistic thinking you get in many Western societies today (light = "good," gentle, compassionate, masculine, politically correct - Christlike, basically; "dark" = feminine, vindictive, "bad," introspective, unrestrained, woodsy, blah blah blah). So, I suppose "dark magic" exists if you believe what you're doing to be "dark" for some reason, really. I don't take it too seriously, myself.

[Torey]

"To differentiate it from stage magic."

That's what I've been told, anyway.

And so says the majority. 'Tis why I spell it that way...

[Rae'ya]

...I want to know why some people insist on spelling "magic" as "magick".

Aleister Crowley popularised the spelling to differentiate between the magick of witchcraft and ceremonial ritual etc, and stage magic or parlour tricks. It's in fairly common usage now within the neo-pagan community (although not an across-the-board standard, by any means). Some people choose not to use it because it Crowley didn't have any historical or entymological reasons to back up his usage of the term, but personally I like it. I like the way it differentiates and I like the way it looks written down or typed out. I certainly don't assume that people who use the spelling 'magic' are talking about something different than I am though, so it's purely semantics and really doesn't matter which spelling a person prefers to use *shrugs*