Catholics Christian?

[Shanti]

I am having a differance of view on another part of the net.
I am hearing that Catholics are not Christians and being born into a Catholic home and going to parochial school, I just dont see how thats true!

Christians follow Christ, right? Well thats what Catholics supposedly do.

How can they not be Christians?

Is this some Christian against Christian thing with people saying they are Christian and Catholics are not?

Oh and the Crusades were not Christian? WTF?

[Nox_Mortus]

Yeah I never understood why some people think that, apparently to some people Christian=Protestant and Catholics are something else entirely, I'm guessing this attitude has roots in anti-Catholic crap propagated by various protestant sects, as you generally only hear it from Protestants and people brought up in mainly protestant communities.

[Shanti]

Yeah I never understood why some people think that, apparently to some people Christian=Protestant and Catholics are something else entirely, I'm guessing this attitude has roots in anti-Catholic crap propagated by various protestant sects, as you generally only hear it from Protestants and people brought up in mainly protestant communities.I had no clue!!!
I thought all Christians recognized other branches!!
Well, except in some other countries were there are histories of Christian/Christian wars.
I never knew that sentiment was here and alive today in the US.

So I guess even though I provided plenty of info via encyclopedias and dictionaries, its most likely going to fall on deaf ears.

[john.a]

I am having a differance of view on another part of the net.
I am hearing that Catholics are not Christians and being born into a Catholic home and going to parochial school, I just dont see how thats true!

Christians follow Christ, right? Well thats what Catholics supposedly do.

How can they not be Christians?

Is this some Christian against Christian thing with people saying they are Christian and Catholics are not?

Oh and the Crusades were not Christian? WTF?

Catholics are Christians. The founding fathers of the first true Christianity were the theological forefathers of the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox faith. All other Christians trace themselves theologically to the followers of Jesus only through one of us. Protestants will claim otherwise. Especially the evangelical ones with very strong sola scriptura background.

We are Christian in every sense of the word, Christianity being defined at the Council of Nicaea and being those who except at the VERY LEAST, the first Four Ecumenical Councils which formed the earliest standard proto-orthodox Christianity. Our Church began when Jesus spoke to Peter and comissioned him to lead His own church. Since then, bishops have appointed the next generation of bishops, down through the generations and the present day bishops of the Catholic and Orthodox faith are in a line of succession from the first apostles.

This definitely is a Christians vs. Christians thing. All major sects and denominations who follow a Tradition and who can claim apostolic succession are seen as some kind of whore of Babylon and an opressive diabolic perversion of what many Fundamentalists see as "True Christianity". I've heard every Pope stretching far back being denounced as the Anti-Christ himself.

The Crusades are a whole other issue. But for the sake of humility, the Crusades and the relation to the Church are often very much misunderstood but there is no denying it: it indeed was a bad time in the Church.


I had no clue!!!
I thought all Christians recognized other branches!!
Well, except in some other countries were there are histories of Christian/Christian wars.
I never knew that sentiment was here and alive today in the US.

So I guess even though I provided plenty of info via encyclopedias and dictionaries, its most likely going to fall on deaf ears.

No. Of course not. How could I consider those who bomb abortion clinics to be true Christians? And there are many fundamentalist, sola scriptura Christians who completely ignore every ecumenical council to the extent of denying basic Christian concepts such as the Trinity. The Christian is known by his or her fruit not by his or her self-acclamation.

[MidnightKisses]

I had no clue!!!
I thought all Christians recognized other branches!!
Well, except in some other countries were there are histories of Christian/Christian wars.
I never knew that sentiment was here and alive today in the US.

So I guess even though I provided plenty of info via encyclopedias and dictionaries, its most likely going to fall on deaf ears.

Same thing with Mormons. Mormons claim to be Christians, they worship Jesus as the Christ, but no other denomination says they are Christians....O_o

[Shanti]

Thanks john.a!!! I didnt know 1/2 that!!!!

I for one love learning new things even if it stems from a debate with people that think they are the 'one'. :toofless:

This stems from the same people believing all terrorist are Muslim!!

They wont acknowledge any time in history when a Christian didnt behave nicely.
I tied to use the Crusades of an example of Christians that chose a bad way. It didnt wash.

Every time you post something that proves otherwise they come back with the response, they were not 'real' Christians.

Gosh why is it hard for some people to admit that bad people come from all walks of life?
Heck, good is in all walks too!

Even the bible has parts that encourage not nice behavior, in the old testament. But we dont have to act on it.
Thats another area, sacred text of religions. Many have parts that preach not nice things. Nothing new.
Choice still lies with the individual.
But some people say their text doesnt have any thing bad in it and theirs is the 'only good' text! Doesnt matter how much quoting you do either!

[Shanti]

Same thing with Mormons. Mormons claim to be Christians, they worship Jesus as the Christ, but no other denomination says they are Christians....O_o
Wow I never thought of that!!!
I never heard them recognized as Christian!! Wow.
Thats weird in a way.

I knew some Mormons too once, I asked them if their book of Mormon was the only book they follow and they brought out their bibles and said no!
They were really nice people too.
I spent time with them at my house for several months, weekly visits, so I could ask questions and they were great at answering and teaching me even though they knew I would never convert!
It was a good period and I was always glad I took the time to get to know them a little better. :smile:

They still were way over done in their beliefs for my personal taste though! LOL

[zombi]

Yes, Catholics are Christians. I have no idea what the problem is with evangelical Protestant denominations that don't recognize them is -- from what I've been able to gather it mostly has to do with what some consider "idolatry". I was raised in a Church of Christ house and I know that many people in my parents' church felt that the Roman Catholic view of Mary was idolatrous (as well as their hierarchical system including the Pope). When I told them that I had become Roman Catholic they were exceedingly offended and felt that I would be going to hell. So. Who knows?

[Cassie]

Same thing with Mormons. Mormons claim to be Christians, they worship Jesus as the Christ, but no other denomination says they are Christians....O_o
I think that is because their theology and beliefs almost entirely different from Christians of the apostolic tradition. For example they claim the Book Of Mormon to have equal authority with the Bible.

[*oonagh*]

where i grew up, catholics thought that protestants were not christians but that catholics are the only true christians. this back-and-forth is something that has been going on for *ages*

[Tiberias]

The most common justifications for this view that I've come across are:

1 - Catholics worship Mary and the Saints and are therefore not Christian because they are violating the most basic Commandment.
2 - Papal infallibility creates an unsanctioned (Biblically) intercessor between Catholics and God and comes dangerously close to deifying the Pope.
3 - Well, actually, that's about it. It mostly comes down to the mistaken belief (taken straight out of Reformation-era propaganda) that Catholics are worshipping Mary and the Saints as deities in and of themselves, rather than treating them as approachable, human intercessors between the worshipper and God.

I get an earful about this once or twice a year from my mother-in-law...

[Nachtigall]

Yeah I never understood why some people think that, apparently to some people Christian=Protestant and Catholics are something else entirely, I'm guessing this attitude has roots in anti-Catholic crap propagated by various protestant sects, as you generally only hear it from Protestants and people brought up in mainly protestant communities.

You can hear a lot of it from Eastern Orthodox Christians too - many of them think that neither Catholics nor Protestants are "true" Christians.

[Shanti]

The most common justifications for this view that I've come across are:

1 - Catholics worship Mary and the Saints and are therefore not Christian because they are violating the most basic Commandment.
2 - Papal infallibility creates an unsanctioned (Biblically) intercessor between Catholics and God and comes dangerously close to deifying the Pope.
3 - Well, actually, that's about it. It mostly comes down to the mistaken belief (taken straight out of Reformation-era propaganda) that Catholics are worshipping Mary and the Saints as deities in and of themselves, rather than treating them as approachable, human intercessors between the worshipper and God.

I get an earful about this once or twice a year from my mother-in-law...Um no!! Chatholics do not 'worship' Mary or Saints!!!!!

We pray to them as messengers for God and as helpers for man but do not 'worship' them as any type of deity.
In Catholic school we were taught to have honor and respect for Mary because she was Jesus's mother.
Saints and angels are Godly and deserve respect and honor.

Honor, respect, praying to, does not mean worship!!

Catholics believe in one God only and we believe he sent his son Jesus to earth and then there are the helpers like Angles, Saints and so on that we can pray to and ask for help.
It was more like dont bother God if you can ask a lesser figure for help because God has a lot on his plate.

Even though I am not Catholic anymore, having 9 yrs of a parochial school and daily religion class does stay in ones head.

[MidnightKisses]

I think that is because their theology and beliefs almost entirely different from Christians of the apostolic tradition. For example they claim the Book Of Mormon to have equal authority with the Bible.

Yet they still worship Jesus Christ as their Saviour. Catholics have all sorts of extra-biblical traditions, are they not Christian?

[MoonChild78]

Yeah, for a long time when I was small I thought Catholic and Christian where different. Then I got older, learned more and began to see all kinds of things, one of them being that Christian was the umbrella term and Catholic was an offshot. One of the funniest I've learned in regards to this topic of the number of people who don't know Jesus was Jewish!! One of them is my mom!! Told me Jesus was not jewish... he was catholic!! O mom... you do make me chuckle!! But, sadly she's not the only one I heard this from either.

[Brónach Druid]

To my knowledge there has always been an underlying battle between different sects of Christianity as to who the real Christians are.
Many believe Roman Catholics are not real Christians because they claim that the Catholic belief system contradicts the bible. Some say this starts with the Crusades where millions were killed in the name of "religion". Others will point out things such as Catholics referring to Mary as the mother of God, calling the pope the Holy Father....things like that. The sacraments are also an issue, for example, claiming that baptism is only suppose to be preformed on those who willing have taken Jesus as their savior, not on infants as in the Catholic practice. The list goes on and on.

[Caitlin.ann]

It all goes back to Martin Luther. Blame him for the Protestant vs. Catholic battles.

[Nox_Mortus]

You can hear a lot of it from Eastern Orthodox Christians too - many of them think that neither Catholics nor Protestants are "true" Christians.

I've never heard that from the Eastern Orthodox members, especially considering that the Eastern Orthodox church is in communion with the Catholic church, that strikes me as a bit odd.

[john.a]

where i grew up, catholics thought that protestants were not christians but that catholics are the only true christians. this back-and-forth is something that has been going on for *ages*

Well, those Catholics are in opposition to our Catechism:

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter. Those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord)'s Eucharist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist)."

~ Catechism of the Catholic Church, 838


Yet they still worship Jesus Christ as their Saviour. Catholics have all sorts of extra-biblical traditions, are they not Christian?

The difference is that Catholics remain faithful to the first four Ecumenical Councils which in their day were universally binding on the Christian faith. Yes, we have extra-biblical traditions but they stem from the teachings and Traditions of the Church Fathers which have been handed down to us.

The Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints teach doctrines which are in direct violation of the first four Ecumenical Council and in fact they claim that all other Christians fell into apostasy and that Jesus Christ had to re-establish his Church from scratch in providing Joseph Smith with a "lost gospel," so to speak. It would be the equivalent of me stating I've been chosen by Jesus Christ to begin his Church anew and I found a book in the Philippines which was divinely inspired and given to me by God (a book whose originally manuscript suddenly mysteriously was taken back by God). How would every other Christian react? In fact how would Mormons react to this?


It all goes back to Martin Luther. Blame him for the Protestant vs. Catholic battles.

Well, it's not like the poor guy meant to start a whole new religion. He just had a few concerns he wanted to address.


I've never heard that from the Eastern Orthodox members, especially considering that the Eastern Orthodox church is in communion with the Catholic church, that strikes me as a bit odd.

It's a messed up situation. We're in "profound" union with them as the Catechism indicates but they're a little more resistant to unity than we are. The Eastern Orthodox Church isn't a giant mega-organization that the Catholic faith is. They're made up of smaller autocephalous communities headed by a bishop who has jurisdiction over even smaller parishes. They can't unite for the life of them and make a universal Orthodox decision on how to advance ecumenism with us. Not to mention our Vatican II kind of distanced them from us even more since they feel we're slowly Protestantizing.

The relationship is best expressed with our sacramental unity: Any and all Catholics are allowed, if need be, to partake in any of the sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox Church. So, let's say I was in rural Russia and I had no access to a Catholic Church for the weekly Eucharist, I can partake of the Eastern Orthodox Eucharist without hesitation. However, an Eastern Orthodox christian stuck in the middle of rural France with no access to an Eastern Orthodox Church has a little more to hesitate about.

[MidnightKisses]

The Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints teach doctrines which are in direct violation of the first four Ecumenical Council and in fact they claim that all other Christians fell into apostasy and that Jesus Christ had to re-establish his Church from scratch in providing Joseph Smith with a "lost gospel," so to speak. It would be the equivalent of me stating I've been chosen by Jesus Christ to begin his Church anew and I found a book in the Philippines which was divinely inspired and given to me by God (a book whose originally manuscript suddenly mysteriously was taken back by God). How would every other Christian react? In fact how would Mormons react to this?

Mormons would probably say "good for you" and keep on with their day. Mormons don't tend to tell other whether they are Christian or not. Then again, I've always been led to believe that to be a Christian, all you need to do is believe Jesus Christ was your Saviour. Though, if someone wants to call themself a Christian and is living Christian ideals and virtues, I'm not going to question it.

Some will though.

[David19]

Catholics are Christians. The founding fathers of the first true Christianity were the theological forefathers of the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox faith. All other Christians trace themselves theologically to the followers of Jesus only through one of us. Protestants will claim otherwise. Especially the evangelical ones with very strong sola scriptura background.

If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean by the first true Christianity?, weren't there quite diverse Christian sects before what became known as Catholicism came about (e.g. Gnostic groups, and many others, like the Jerusalem Church, which, if I'm remembering correctly was run by James, brother of Jesus, etc).

[Louisvillian]

I am having a difference of view on another part of the net.
I am hearing that Catholics are not Christians...How can they not be Christians?
The people that usually bleat such nonsense are fundamentalists of other Christian sects, often fanatical Protestants or (much more rarely) fanatical Eastern Orthodox Christians.


If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean by the first true Christianity?, weren't there quite diverse Christian sects before what became known as Catholicism came about (e.g. Gnostic groups, and many others, like the Jerusalem Church, which, if I'm remembering correctly was run by James, brother of Jesus, etc).
The Gnostics weren't really Christians. They were a syncretic group that absorbed Christian ideas; but they weren't really that influential in Early Christianity; and they came up a few decades before Christianity was founded.
And no, the Catholic Church didn't suddenly spring up; it was composed of these local churches, or rather Patriarchates, that you refer to as "sects". The Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Church, and the Coptic Church) are that original Christian Church.

[Nachtigall]

I've never heard that from the Eastern Orthodox members, especially considering that the Eastern Orthodox church is in communion with the Catholic church, that strikes me as a bit odd.
Interesting. Then there's definitely a big difference between the Church in the USA, where Eastern Orthodox Christians are a religious minority, and the Russian Orthodox Church.

[john.a]

If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean by the first true Christianity?, weren't there quite diverse Christian sects before what became known as Catholicism came about (e.g. Gnostic groups, and many others, like the Jerusalem Church, which, if I'm remembering correctly was run by James, brother of Jesus, etc).

What I subjectively refer to as "the first, true Christianity," scholars objectively refer to as "proto-orthodox." From a Catholic individual such as myself, all those other "sects" were heretical and theologically vanquished. For an interfaith dialogue such as this forum provides, objectivity is best attained in seeing these historical groups as simply theological forefathers of the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. There were diverse Christian "sects" but the "proto-orthodox" sect is the remaining survivor with direct descendants.

However my point remains: the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church are the modern descendants of that one "proto-orthodox" sect. (If memory serves me correctly, Louisvillain, the Oriental Orthodox were not considered "proto-orthodox" but I could very well be wrong.) And then Protestants split from the Catholic Church. Yet many Evangelical/Fundamentalist individuals claim that the Catholic Church is not "Christian" when it's founding fathers were the very men who defined "Christianity."

[LostSheep]

I've never heard that from the Eastern Orthodox members, especially considering that the Eastern Orthodox church is in communion with the Catholic church, that strikes me as a bit odd.

That goes back to the Great Schism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism) when what became the Eastern Orthodox church, effectively, considered that they were the ones that carried on true Catholicism.

[john.a]

That goes back to the Great Schism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism) when what became the Eastern Orthodox church, effectively, considered that they were the ones that carried on true Catholicism.

Yeah, since then there have always been fanatics on both sides. But at the same time, the Patriarch of Constantinople and our current Pope lifted the excommunications of the Schism a few years ago. So the successor of St. Peter and their primus inter pares have already recognized the validity of each other's Churches. There really shouldn't be rabid fanatics on both sides of the Tiber demonizing the other side.

[la tortuga]

I am having a differance of view on another part of the net.
I am hearing that Catholics are not Christians and being born into a Catholic home and going to parochial school, I just dont see how thats true!

Christians follow Christ, right? Well thats what Catholics supposedly do.

How can they not be Christians?

Is this some Christian against Christian thing with people saying they are Christian and Catholics are not?

Oh and the Crusades were not Christian? WTF?

My boyfriend, who is Catholic, and I have discussed this at length because my Baptist grandfather is ashamed of me for dating him. It's just Protestants like to pretend that they're not the same as Catholics, just like all of the Abrahamic faiths like to distinguish themselves from each other, even though they all technically worship the same God. Though they each do have very different interpretations and cultural traditions involving their faith, I'd say they're not very similar at all anymore, which would validate saying they are different religions... but to follow Christ is to be Christian and, well, Methodists and Catholics both do it.

[la tortuga]

You can hear a lot of it from Eastern Orthodox Christians too - many of them think that neither Catholics nor Protestants are "true" Christians.

I was under the impression this was due to Vatican II changes that the Orthodox Church did not have to accept but made huge changes in Roman Catholicism? Before Vatican II, they were really quite similar but now, not so much.

[Tiberias]

--

[la tortuga]

Yep. Just like how Druids, Celtic Re-Cons and Wiccans like to pretend they're not the same.

You know I did edit that post to be more clear because I realized I had put it the wrong way. You could go back and read it if you want. It was edited before I read this, honestly.

[Cunae]

I grew up Lutheran and was taught Catholics are not only *not* Christian, but voodoo worshipers of Mary and a bunch of dead people who supposedly do magic stuff. Oh, and Mary statues bleed and she shows up in people's potatoes sometimes. Those around me openly scorned Catholics.

Now it always amazes me when someone says "Christians and Catholics"... wtf? Sounds hateful to me now, especially when I am exploring the mystical aspects of Catholicism.

[Louisvillian]

If memory serves me correctly, Louisvillain, the Oriental Orthodox were not considered "proto-orthodox" but I could very well be wrong.
They broke from the Catholic/Orthodox Church after the Council of Chalcedon. So they accept the first three of the four key Ecumenical Councils. In a way, they are a successor of the Orthodox Church; just a bit more off on their own tangent.

[Cloaked Raven]

I grew up in a fundamentally Christian household and my mother always acted as if Catholics were one of the "lesser sects" of Christianity. She always said they were "snobs" and "should not be considered Christian". :geez:

In my opinion, Catholics ARE a big part of the Christian belief system, just like Lutherans, Episcopalians/Anglicans, Protestants, etc.

I just could never get my head around WHY there is so much infighting between the denominations and why so many people are against Catholicism. We Christians all pray to God and Jesus in one way or another, whether it's directly or indirectly (by praying to a Saint for help for example). Why fight about it??? :goodgrief

[LostSheep]

I just could never get my head around WHY there is so much infighting between the denominations and why so many people are against Catholicism. We Christians all pray to God and Jesus in one way or another, whether it's directly or indirectly (by praying to a Saint for help for example). Why fight about it??? :goodgrief

politics, mainly; going back probably to Good King Henry VIII wanting to divorce Catherine of Aragon, and so splitting off from Rome, which developed from there into a kind of "cold war" between Catholic Europe (i.e. most of it) and Protestant England and Holland. Everything since then has pretty much mgrown out of that, I think. And then, of course, the Founding Fathers of America were by and large puritans, fleeing what they regarded as persecution in England (which they thought was still dangerously close to catholicism), which is how it spread to the New World, as they took their suspicions with them.

[Corvis Canis Latrans]

Most of my family is Methodist, and sort of look down on Catholicism.

Which amuses me since some of the family reunions, as I recall, were held in the Catholic church in the town I grew up in, even though the Methodist church was less than a block away and had the same amount of space...

[Agaliha]

You know...I've seen online (message boards, some YT videos, etc) people saying Reform Jews aren't "real" Jews because they're not Orthodox or whatnot.

And in Islam you will find many that hold the belief that Shi'a are not Muslims because they differ in many regard to the majority of Sunnis.

I don't know if this is found in Hinduism, Buddhism and other faiths, but I know it's not unique to Christianity. I wonder why people have to create this conflict when there really isn't a need, it's lame.

Personally, I don't understand how people can say Catholics aren't Christian...it doesn't make sense to me.

[LostSheep]

I went to a Catholic school originally, and we all trooped over to the local church once a week, although I never took much notice of the theological side of things, but it was a chance to get out of school for an hour, so I wasn't complaining. Since then, I hadn't set foot inside a Catholic church; although I like looking round old churches, I suppose I kind of had the idea that it was a sort of secret society that didn't welcome outsiders nosing around, and it'd be full of nuns wandering around chanting in Latin and what have you. I did a few months back, and there weren't, but I'm now beginning to get interested in the whole subject again; and there does seem to be a real community spirit within it, which isn't something that you see very much of anywhere else now. They even still go on pilgrimages, apparently.

[Louisvillian]

And then, of course, the Founding Fathers of America were by and large puritans, fleeing what they regarded as persecution in England
Not even close.
The Founding Fathers were in the 1770's and 80's.
The Puritans and their colonies in New England were during the mid to late 1600's.
About a whole freaking century earlier.

Get your history straight.

[David19]

The Gnostics weren't really Christians. They were a syncretic group that absorbed Christian ideas; but they weren't really that influential in Early Christianity; and they came up a few decades before Christianity was founded.
And no, the Catholic Church didn't suddenly spring up; it was composed of these local churches, or rather Patriarchates, that you refer to as "sects". The Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Church, and the Coptic Church) are that original Christian Church.

I thought Christianity pretty much arose from the Gnostics (most early Gnostics were Jews, who happened to find new interpretations of their Scriptures, and, also, blended it with Hellenic Philosophy, Mythology, as well as Kemetic, Zoroastrian, etc).


What I subjectively refer to as "the first, true Christianity," scholars objectively refer to as "proto-orthodox." From a Catholic individual such as myself, all those other "sects" were heretical and theologically vanquished. For an interfaith dialogue such as this forum provides, objectivity is best attained in seeing these historical groups as simply theological forefathers of the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. There were diverse Christian "sects" but the "proto-orthodox" sect is the remaining survivor with direct descendants.

However my point remains: the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church are the modern descendants of that one "proto-orthodox" sect. (If memory serves me correctly, Louisvillain, the Oriental Orthodox were not considered "proto-orthodox" but I could very well be wrong.) And then Protestants split from the Catholic Church. Yet many Evangelical/Fundamentalist individuals claim that the Catholic Church is not "Christian" when it's founding fathers were the very men who defined "Christianity."

Thanks for clarifying :).

[David19]

You know...I've seen online (message boards, some YT videos, etc) people saying Reform Jews aren't "real" Jews because they're not Orthodox or whatnot.

And in Islam you will find many that hold the belief that Shi'a are not Muslims because they differ in many regard to the majority of Sunnis.

I don't know if this is found in Hinduism, Buddhism and other faiths, but I know it's not unique to Christianity. I wonder why people have to create this conflict when there really isn't a need, it's lame.

Personally, I don't understand how people can say Catholics aren't Christian...it doesn't make sense to me.

I think it's common to all religions, I mean, look at some of the infighting that goes on within Wicca - who is and isn't a real Wicca, or in Hellenismos, where there are certain groups (or individuals) who proclaim who they think are not true Hellenes and are not practicing Hellenismos properly, etc.

[LostSheep]

Not even close.
The Founding Fathers were in the 1770's and 80's.
The Puritans and their colonies in New England were during the mid to late 1600's.
About a whole freaking century earlier.

Get your history straight.

Well, i'm very sorry, but there was no need to be rude. Ok, "founding fathers" wasn't exactly the right word, but you know what i meant, I meant the puritans, which I said, but you just wanted to be rude, and i feel that was uncalled for.

[Louisvillian]

I thought Christianity pretty much arose from the Gnostics (most early Gnostics were Jews, who happened to find new interpretations of their Scriptures, and, also, blended it with Hellenic Philosophy, Mythology, as well as Kemetic, Zoroastrian, etc).
No. That's a really bizarre take on the whole thing. Gnosticism was a fringe movement as far as their involvement with Christianity was concerned. Christianity arose, as the name implies, from the followers of Jesus of Nazareth; a radical Jewish sect that gradually expanded an apocalyptic message to non-Jews and grew into its own religion.
Gnosticism had little, if anything, to do with the origin of Christianity.


Well, i'm very sorry, but there was no need to be rude. Ok, "founding fathers" wasn't exactly the right word, but you know what i meant, I meant the puritans, which I said, but you just wanted to be rude, and i feel that was uncalled for.
Well, I think it was called for. And if you think I was being rude, you need to lighten up and be a little less sensitive.

[LostSheep]

Why was it called for? It wasn't anything to do with the actual subject, it was just a minor incorrect description of the people concerned. And "Not even close. About a whole freaking century earlier. Get your history straight" wasn't rude? it certainly sounds like it to me.

I feel that that was unnecessary, and disappointing.

[Louisvillian]

History is vital to the understanding of humanity and truth. It is us.
And it must be kept straight, direct, and true to the facts. Else all will be lost.

I suppose I may have been a bit rude; but remember, to me, history is serious business (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeriousBusiness).

[Agaliha]

I think it's common to all religions, I mean, look at some of the infighting that goes on within Wicca - who is and isn't a real Wicca, or in Hellenismos, where there are certain groups (or individuals) who proclaim who they think are not true Hellenes and are not practicing Hellenismos properly, etc.

Very true. :uhhuhuh:
I was thinking more so of whole sects/denominations professing another isn't a true xyz. I don't know if in Buddhism for example, Mahayana Buddhists don't consider Zen Buddhists "true" Buddhists and things like that. Though it is found in Abrahmaic faiths as I pointed out. In-fighting is definitely found in all faiths, though.

[aranarose]

Very true. :uhhuhuh:
I was thinking more so of whole sects/denominations professing another isn't a true xyz. I don't know if in Buddhism for example, Mahayana Buddhists don't consider Zen Buddhists "true" Buddhists and things like that. Though it is found in Abrahmaic faiths as I pointed out. In-fighting is definitely found in all faiths, though.

I think it's found mostly in the book faiths because of varying interpretations of scripture. Buddhism doesn't really have a single text that is viewed as inerrant, as you get with Christianity and Islam. In fact, in Buddhism, you're encouraged to question and test the teachings.

I think a lot of the infighting in Wicca has to do with the fact that many Wiccans have a Christian "one true religion" background. They're used to the infighting, so they carry it into their new faith.

[aranarose]

Also, there's the "This is the only path to God" thing that the Abrahamic religions have going. Buddhism doesn't have that either.

[David19]

Very true. :uhhuhuh:
I was thinking more so of whole sects/denominations professing another isn't a true xyz. I don't know if in Buddhism for example, Mahayana Buddhists don't consider Zen Buddhists "true" Buddhists and things like that. Though it is found in Abrahmaic faiths as I pointed out. In-fighting is definitely found in all faiths, though.

True, I've read in 'The Jew in the Lotus: A Poet's Re-Discovery of Jewish Identity in Buddhist India' by Rodger Kamenetz (http://www.amazon.com/Jew-Lotus-Re-Discovery-Identity-Buddhist/dp/0060645741) that, apparantly, some of the more conservative Buddhists would see the Dalai Lama as a heretic, if he wasn't the Dalai Lama, some of them don't like the idea of religious dialogue with other religions (or, at least, not to the extent that the Dalai Lama and many other Buddhists engage in).

So, unfortunately, it is part of every tradition.

[David19]

I think it's found mostly in the book faiths because of varying interpretations of scripture. Buddhism doesn't really have a single text that is viewed as inerrant, as you get with Christianity and Islam. In fact, in Buddhism, you're encouraged to question and test the teachings.

I think a lot of the infighting in Wicca has to do with the fact that many Wiccans have a Christian "one true religion" background. They're used to the infighting, so they carry it into their new faith.

That is definitely true, but, like I just mentioned above, you do get similar types of things within Buddhism, particularly amongst the more conservative types.

[Louisvillian]

Also, there's the "This is the only path to God" thing that the Abrahamic religions have going. Buddhism doesn't have that either.
No, but they do have the "this is the only path to enlightenment" thing. Which has resulted in some pretty hefty infighting and violence in the past, despite the whitewashing Buddhism gets in the West as a peaceful, humble oriental religion.

[Erisek]

I am a Catholic Christian. I adhere to the Bible alone, but I have read the Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible), the Dhammapada, a good part of the Koran, the Tao Te Ching, and the Satanic Bible.

If anyone has questions about the Catholic / Christian Faith, I can always provide answers

[MoonBreath]

One day in my Survey of the Old Testament Class this past semester a student brought up Catholicism (i can't exactly remember why though! lol!). Yeah, she wasn't very positive about the denomination to say the least! She mentioned not liking the high amount of respect shown to Mary/ the praying to saints, and the scandals involving priests with young children. I remember thinking, "yikes, it's a good thing there aren't any Catholics in the class!" Things probably would have gotten quite heated to say the least!

i personally think the whole idea that Catholics are not Christian voiced by some is silly.

[David19]

I can't remember if I posted in this thread, but, personally, I'm surprised it's even an issue, Catholics are definitely Christian, I can't think what else they'd be, I'm sure some idiot Fundamentalists in the Deep Bible Belt States probably think Catholics are Satanic, or "pagan", and that the Pope is part of the Illuminati (the Head of the Illuminati is probably reserved for a gay Jew in their worldview! - the most "evil" of peoples!!), but, most sane people would think it was ridiculous that they were anything but Christian.