About teaching and all these ideas for schools....

[Grey]

Personally I think that a school would be a great idea... but theyre are plenty of inherant problems that people have pinted out. rather than adress those wich is already done in pagan schools open for all, Id like to ask something.

Why dont pagans, wiccans, practitiooners etc. ever have convention like gatherings? ive heard of a few in europe and one in pynnsylvannia and another in california but thats not much. We seem to have this inane fear of... something. I cant figure it out. Ive never had a problem teaching or being taught and while I know this sounds selfish... why are people afraid to exchange Ideas? we seem to sectionalise oursleves into our small groups and the completely disttrust most outsiders. Its to the point were many feel its taboo to help out an associate by give knowledge of a spell to them. Or lending ritual items for that matter. I know that this is all personal stuff but isnt this kind of secritive attitude what started the burning times and just about distroyed it all in the first place? Why must we all find everything on our own never sharing? I know a lesson learned peersonally is a deep thing and that the touch of a god is personal, but surely we have nothing to fear unless we ourselves are charlatans?

[Raevyn]

Why dont pagans, wiccans, practitiooners etc. ever have convention like gatherings?

Mm we do. There are conventions and festivals, along with open circles etc. I used to staff one, and there's another one just started in the area this year. I also know of two others just in this area.


Its to the point were many feel its taboo to help out an associate by give knowledge of a spell to them.

At least in my case, not giving out spells is more a result of the fact that I think anyone who should do a spell doesn't need to be given one. If you are ready to do a spell you will know the mechanics and techniques involved, and how to write your own. Anyone who has to ask for a spell straight up hasn't done a lot of research IMHO (keep in mind, that's different then asking for an opinion on a correspondence or looking up ideas). Spellcrafting is easy and better when the individual does it themself (because their focus will be truer and their Will stronger, inherently), that's why I don't give out spells.


Or lending ritual items for that matter

That's usually because people want only their energies on their tools - to some that means the tools work truer and better, and are more personal. I only let my closest friends handle my tools.


I know that this is all personal stuff but isnt this kind of secritive attitude what started the burning times and just about distroyed it all in the first place?

The burning times had nothing to do with secretive Pagans...?

I'm not sure what spurred this thread on for you, is there someone who hasn't shared something with you? Finding our own path and learning our own lessons is a major part of magic and Paganism for some. It isn't about being "a charlatan", but in many cases about personal feelings - like that people who can do spells should be able to write themselves, like keeping one's own energy in one's own tools, or like recognizing that some things can't be taught. At the same time, there are thousands of circles, groves, covens, churches, and organizations for Pagans to network and learn/grow together

[Lavender]

... why are people afraid to exchange Ideas? we seem to sectionalise oursleves into our small groups and the completely disttrust most outsiders.

I'm not sure I understand...are you refering to here at MW or your own community in general? I've always thought people here have been very open & sharing with their knowledge and ideas. I've learnt a lot from being here. I've found this place to be very good for the give & take.

For me, personally, sharing my tools would be akin to sharing my toothbrush.

BTW, the topic of pagan schools have been brought up before...have you tried a search? There were a lot of good points for the pros & cons for one.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Yes there was a thread called Pagan schools he could read. I think what Grey is referring to is that it seems to him that many pagans that he may have come across are secretive and unwilling to speak about their faith because they are afraid of persecution(Burning times reference) Which could make sense.

My reply to you Grey, is that the conventions exist. Heck, MW was going to or had a gathering one time a while back, and maybe we can plan another one... In Tucson! *Wink wink, nudge nudge to Mol and Semele* It's just they don't get so much publicity because as you have said it may be a stressing feat to try and have a convention with people picketing right outside the door. I can see where you are coming from, and know that people are growing more accepting and there may be a time when we can go out in public and scream out "I am Pagan" without either nasty looks, or fear of persecution.

[Ben Gruagach]

There are publicly-advertised gatherings of all sorts (small ones and big ones) listed at http://www.witchvox.com

Most pagan magazines also list gatherings or "festivals."

When it comes to secrecy, imagine what it was like only a few decades ago when the only publicly mentioned Wiccan traditions were Gardnerian and Alexandrian! Thanks to the internet and the explosion of books in print on witchcraft and paganism, there are dozens (maybe hundreds) of different traditions which the curious can find out about by doing a search at Google or by consulting local occult stores and "personalities."

There really isn't much that is secret in the way of specifics about witchcraft and paganism. Individual groups and practitioners certainly keep secret about what they personally do, but there isn't a lot that isn't in print now, if only on the internet.

[Demeter]

There are lots of festivals and gatherings, both open-air ones and indoor, "convention" type ones (in places and at times of year when open-air doesn't make sense). Also, a lot of science fiction conventions have pagan-oriented programming, even if it's not the major focus of the convention. A single web-search will provide you with hundreds of hits for "pagan festivals" or "pagan gatherings". There's even a Pagan Gatherings web-ring.

For spells, if someone is an utter newbie, I will outline what to do and tell them where to go to do more research. If they are truly interested, they will do the work. But I think a lot of people who ask for "spells" are looking for quick fixes for situations so that they don't have to do the work to resolve it themselves. And then if it doesn't work, it becomes the fault of the person who gave them the spell. Giving out spells to the wrong person can destroy friendships at the very least. And giving out spells to a person who uses them irresponsibly and unethically can create karmic ties to some very unpleasant situations.

As far as loaning out tools goes, that's a very personal thing. I've invested a lot of time and effort in tuning my tools to myself, and one talented but unskilled individual can undo all of that (this happened when I let somebody handle my dowsing crystal for just a few minutes). And again, if you loan out a tool to someone who uses it for unethical purposes, your karma is tied in with their work. Then there's the mundane problem of getting things back if you loan them out. I'm sure you've loaned out books and never gotten them back? Wouldn't you be a little leery of loaning out your wand for the same reason?

We do share. We share with our friends and covens, people we know we can trust. We share on bulletin boards like this where we are shielded by internet anonymity. We share at gatherings. When we write a book or put up a website, we share with anybody who cares to read it. But we have to keep in mind the difference between "secrecy" and "privacy." I don't advertise the state of my finances or my love life, and I choose not to advertise the state of my spiritual life except with certain people. It's not that there's anything to be ashamed of or hide, but it is really nobody else's business.

I think, also, that you're a little off on "secretive" matters "starting" the burning times. What "started" the burning times was a generalized hysteria about witches that was characteristic of the 15th through 17th centuries. Secrecy is more of a holdover from the occult lodge tradition of the 18th and 19th centuries, when it was very important for people of good breeding to avoid the "scandal" of connections with the occult. Nowadays, what with the rise of fundamentalism of all types, secrecy is perceived as being necessary to keep jobs and prevent harrassment.

[Grey]

AS for all this ... Im sorry Im very frustrated. In my area its almost impossible to talk about suck things for more than a few minutes without a shutdown for some reason or another... Its been very frustrating.

as for the thing I said on not giving spells out... By the I mean that again in my experiance poeple arent very willing to give instructions on them. I mean books are great but theyre not even close to having a question and answer setion with someone who knows of what they speak.

Yes I know theyre are threads on schools. I thought I had mentioned that *sorry* what I mean is that a oft mentioned con is that karmic link people always bring up. I must admit Im not sure i understand the concept... anyone care to explain the idea?

It gets frustrating as the online information I find is usually repetitive of conflicting... its hard to learn anything! I mean in my area theyre is one pagan whos considered wiser than I am! one! Im looked up to like a high priest by many and Im not exactly a grand master here.... I give good advice it seems but its probably just luck that has kept me from seriously hurting someone.

As for secretiveness starting the burning times. People are afraid of the unknown, its a fact. If you understand something and/or someone you understand theyre limits aswell, or what theyre willing to do. Its ignorance that breeds the kind of hate that seems to have prevaled in tose days.
as far as I can see little knowledge survived those days because few people knew anything. I look around and so much seems to have been lost... It saddens me and I can only think "if they had only shared with a couple people" or "written that trick down before they died" We'd know.

Im sorry I need to be less impatient sometimes...

[Raevyn]

as for the thing I said on not giving spells out... By the I mean that again in my experiance poeple arent very willing to give instructions on them. I mean books are great but theyre not even close to having a question and answer setion with someone who knows of what they speak.

What instructions are you looking for? I find books tend to say "ok you can use correspondences for a spell, use ones that work for you, then cast the spell" so I can understand if you're confused as to the actual mechanics - ie. what correspondences work, why, and what techniques are involved. Is it that you're confused about correspondences, or that you don't know the technique involved, or..? Feel free to ask and I'm sure people will answer.


oft mentioned con is that karmic link people always bring up. I must admit Im not sure i understand the concept... anyone care to explain the idea?

Since your energy is all over your tools (naturally from using them or because of charging them) if you lend them out and someone uses them your energy in the tool will be used for whatever they do. So if they do something you wouldn't agree with, your energy will still be involved with the spell through virtue of that tool. You could face some karmic repercussions because the spell is linked to you. Of course there's also the possibility that they will use the tool to do some spell on you that you might not appreciate as well.


It gets frustrating as the online information I find is usually repetitive of conflicting... its hard to learn anything!

It can be hard to know what's necessary and what's opinion - sometimes people aren't clear. Again, a good example is correspondences for spells - some people think one thing, and others another, and unless you understand how correspondences work it won't make sense. Again, ask. I'm sure people will be happy to help explain for you.


I give good advice it seems but its probably just luck that has kept me from seriously hurting someone.

Hm well I hope it's not just luck, but that you're being careful about what energy you put out :)


It saddens me and I can only think "if they had only shared with a couple people" or "written that trick down before they died" We'd know.

*sigh* Ok, if people shared, assuming they knew witchcraft, they would be in fear of being killed. If they wrote things down (assuming they could write, as most people couldn't), again, if it's found they get killed. Also, I'm not sure I believe people then were privy to any great secrets we don't have now. I imagine things weren't that different then. I'm sure some things have been lost but it's not like there was this perfect world before :)

So yeah, if you have questions, go ahead and ask.