The Trinity & Matt 24:36, a question

[Agaliha]

Hey...so I have a question, I'm not sure if it's stupid or not, but I thought I'd ask anyway... I was watching a show about Armageddon on History Channel and a verse was mentioned which left me confused.

The verse is:
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36
(it's also repeated in Mark 13:32)

My understanding of the Trinity is that it's 3 parts in 1. So similar to me being a sister, daughter and admin -- it's all me, just different aspects. I know some denominations (Mormon, I believe) have the Trinity as 3 separate parts that work as 1 unit, but I think that's a minority view.
(If I'm incorrect about any of this, please let me know).

My confusion is surrounding the fact that according to the verse, Jesus (pbuh) doesn't know, only God ("the father"). But if they're all part of the same deity, just different aspects, than why wouldn't Jesus (pbuh) know as well? Aren't they all connected and in the know? Don't they all work together toward one will and goal? Or is this implying that they are separate and their own entity like a few denominations believe?

Can anyone clarify? I'm just curious is all.
Thanks!

[Tobias]

When Jesus was incarnated into a human body, he set aside many aspects of his divinity. He was "fully human yet fully God", but not entirely in touch with his God side? (I'm not sure about the fine details of this theology.)


There's another place in the Gospels where someone comes up to him and calls him "Good Teacher". Jesus asked why he called him "good".


Mark 10:
17As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.


Try wrapping your mind around that one! ;)

[john.a]

I'm currently reading a good book on beginner's Catholic theology just to check it out and it blew my mind: E.J. Sheed. Check it out. I myself am working out the precise details of Trinity and really it is a Mystery that we can try and are encouraged to grasp but may never completely understand. I do have thoughts on it and some of them I had just begun to elucidate and formulate outloud in my post on Trinitarian ex-stasis but these days I am getting busier and busier as can be seen from my less-detailed, less well-thought out posts. Hopefully I can get back to this thread.

[PaganSpirit]

From what I've generally understood about the orthodox (or at least I think this is orthodox, but correct me if I'm wrong) position on the nature of the Trinity is that it is three individual persons sharing the same essence. I actually find it akin to the Hindu Trimurti consisting of Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Sustainer and Shiva the Destroyer, which altogether make up three main aspect of Brahman, the All.

[thepuck]

I always liked C.S. Lewis's take on it. He said God as a person related to a human as a person was of the same manner as a square as a shape vs. a cube as a shape. God is superpersonal. Trying to understand His personhood through an analogy with your personhood can only be metaphorical at best. Thus your question is based on an extrapolation of what knowledge is like for you as a person...you know what you know, and can't understand how you could be considered to be the same entity and somehow both know something and also not know it. Knowledge for the superpersonal God is different. How exactly? I don't, and can't, know.

[Sollie]

Good question! I think the concept of the trinity is one of the hardest parts of Christianity to get its head around, and also the part where most people will have different beliefs.

I personally kinda agree with Tobias...until Jesus reunited with his father, they shared the same essence, but were separated. (If I remember right, the verse in question was said by Jesus while he was teaching before his death, yes?) Since they were separate, Jesus did not have access to that information.

Just my thoughts.

[john.a]

There's another place in the Gospels where someone comes up to him and calls him "Good Teacher". Jesus asked why he called him "good".

Mark 10:
17As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Try wrapping your mind around that one! ;)

Well, Toby. =P We Catholics can interpret that thusly:

Throughout the Gospel's, Jesus' full identity is only surprisingly hinted about (and some of us Catholics believe that it was only at the Last Supper that he provided a much more rich explanation - the deposit of faith that led to the development of our Church). When he asks Peter, for example, "Who do you say I Am?" (Peter, surprisingly, answers correctly!) This one passage is another tantalizing hint. Imagine, someone comes up to Jesus and says, "Good Rebbe (Teacher)..." and Jesus looks at him quizically, almost curiously with a smile on his face: "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone... right?"

Almost challenging the man to say, "Well. You are God." Never really saying it but always kind of implying it or hinting it.

[john.a]

My understanding of the Trinity is that it's 3 parts in 1. So similar to me being a sister, daughter and admin -- it's all me, just different aspects. I know some denominations (Mormon, I believe) have the Trinity as 3 separate parts that work as 1 unit, but I think that's a minority view.
(If I'm incorrect about any of this, please let me know).

I think that you're understanding of the Trinity actually makes less of a problematic mess than actual trinitarianism. What you propose there is called modalism or patripassianism by Tertullian, considered a heresy by the Church and vanquished from Christendom - surprisingly few sects are proponents - since the 3rd Century. =P

Modalism, with its emphasis on the the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being distinct roles, could propose a possible explanation for why the Son knows not what the Father knows. Analogically, this would be tantamount to saying that John the soccer player can kick a ball and John the brother cannot; that is to say that to each role is attributed certain skills and powers that is exclusive to the other roles.

In trinitarianism proper, the one God is the Spirit who loves infinitely, knows infinitely and acts omnipotently. Yet there are three, distinct Persons, individual Self-Awarenesses who all love infinitely, know infinitely and act omnipotently. They are not completely different gods because their love, knowledge and omnipotence are identical. In ancient paganism, God A has distinct loves, personalities and knowledge from those of God B. But in Christianity, God the Son loves and knows as God the Father loves and knows: infinitely. AND exclusive infinities are an impossibility. The source and intensity of their love is thus identical: their singular Divinity. This poses an even stronger problem: If God knows infinitely and both Son and Father are God then how does the Father know something that the Son does not?

What is the Catholic interpretation? Well, one possible one: Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary describes the concept of kenosis as such:

"The voluntary renunciation by Christ of his right to divine privilege in his humble acceptance of human status. Paul describes kenosis aptly to the Philippians: 'His state was divine, yet He did not cling to his equality with God, but emptied Himself to assume the condition of a slave' (Philippians 2:6-7). (Etym. Greek kenosis, an emptying."