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Erebos
February 15th, 2010, 12:19 AM
What do people think of her? I'm interested in reading her Holy Book of Women's Mysteries, although I think she takes a lot of liberties with history. She has some interesting ideas, though some people might be put off by her politics, much like Starhawk.

GoldenOak
February 24th, 2010, 03:52 AM
Mind you, I'm closer to Cybelian monotheism (Cybele aka Mother Nature) than Z Dianism, so one should take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

Some of Z's ideas may work for some people, but I personally don't like her attitude towards segregating women and men, as if they can't understand God/dess in the same manner. Or the attitude that only naturally born XX hetero women and naturally born XY hetero men deserve to have a relationship with God/dess, as if not all people are children of the Creator. That doesn't even include the naturally born intersexed or asexual people, of which there are a whole lot more of than transgendered.

I also don't understand the "women's mysteries" part of it. Any man who has / had an active relationship with a mother, sister, girlfriend, or wife understands those non-mysterious "mysteries".

Erebos
February 25th, 2010, 10:57 AM
Some of Z's ideas may work for some people, but I personally don't like her attitude towards segregating women and men, as if they can't understand God/dess in the same manner. Or the attitude that only naturally born XX hetero women and naturally born XY hetero men deserve to have a relationship with God/dess, as if not all people are children of the Creator. That doesn't even include the naturally born intersexed or asexual people, of which there are a whole lot more of than transgendered.

But she does include "men's mysteries" in her Holy Book of Women's Mysteries, and if I'm mistaken not she's a lesbian herself.

Caelestis ♥ Raven
February 25th, 2010, 06:12 PM
I love Z. Her work is very inspiring and her Holy Book started me out on my path in a big way! I so wish I had the extra money to take her online class. She really has helped women's/Goddess spirituality alot. While I may not agree with everything, I love her books and am very thankful for them.


Some of Z's ideas may work for some people, but I personally don't like her attitude towards segregating women and men, as if they can't understand God/dess in the same manner. Or the attitude that only naturally born XX hetero women and naturally born XY hetero men deserve to have a relationship with God/dess, as if not all people are children of the Creator. That doesn't even include the naturally born intersexed or asexual people, of which there are a whole lot more of than transgendered.

Everyone deserves a relationship with the Goddess but in their own way. The path doesn't tell anyone they can not have spirituality and embrace the Goddess. This is just one path of many.

There is alot of discussion about women born women and I can see both sides. The path is all about embracing your connection with the Goddess through being a woman and how can someone who is not do that? At the same time I think the line of what makes a woman a woman isn't so clear. And if someone truly identifies as a woman then I can not see that they are not one. It is a complicated issue.

For myself I like women only space. I think it is important for women. It is kindof as if everyone in the circle is focused on A and one person is focusing on B, it just throws it out of whack. And that is what we are doing, bringing women together to focus on that aspect of ourselves.

It is not for everyone. But I don't see the issue of it working for people who choose to do so.


I also don't understand the "women's mysteries" part of it. Any man who has / had an active relationship with a mother, sister, girlfriend, or wife understands those non-mysterious "mysteries".

I strongly disagree. Being around something and experiencing it are two VERY different things. Like sex, people can tell you all about sex, you can watch all the porn you want but until you have it then you just do not fully understand that experience lol.

i have no clue what it is like to have a penis. I have no idea what it is like to deal with men's hormones and bodies or the energy they bring. I don't have the experience of being a man. I have lived with them all my life- fathers, grandfathers, uncles, 2 brothers, a husband, etc... and yet I still could never fully grasp that experience.

Again the path isn't for everyone :) But I fully love embracing my mysteries and what it is like to be a woman and that aspect of who I am.

zombi
February 27th, 2010, 12:11 AM
I love Z. Her work is very inspiring and her Holy Book started me out on my path in a big way! I so wish I had the extra money to take her online class. She really has helped women's/Goddess spirituality alot. While I may not agree with everything, I love her books and am very thankful for them.

<snip> The path doesn't tell anyone they can not have spirituality and embrace the Goddess. <snip>
I am just beginning to get through my copy of the Holy Book, and I agree with this -- while I may not agree with everything she writes, that doesn't mean that her writing is entirely without merit. And, again, I'm still new to Z's work, so I can't say this WITHOUT FAIL, but I have not gotten the impression from it that she is saying transgendered, etc people cannot have a relationship with the Goddess.


There is alot of discussion about women born women and I can see both sides. The path is all about embracing your connection with the Goddess through being a woman and how can someone who is not do that? At the same time I think the line of what makes a woman a woman isn't so clear. And if someone truly identifies as a woman then I can not see that they are not one. It is a complicated issue. This I agree with, also. I think the woman-born-a-woman business gets a lot of attention and I think it's really complex. Even if one is female and one's body is still male, when doing things skyclad, for instance, that body is still male. Is it wrong, for instance, for a woman who has been sexually abused by males not to want any male bodies in her 'sacred space'?

These are really complicated issues and while I am firmly against discrimination against trans people (and other groups listed), I can't say that this is entirely cut-and-dry. Most things aren't. I wish this crap wasn't so complicated, and I wish there weren't issues like the above mentioned, but -- it IS and there ARE.

I know I already said it but I feel it bears repeating -- I am still really new to Dianic stuff in general, including Z's work! So my thoughts are not fully formed.

Erebos
August 16th, 2010, 04:15 PM
I spent the afternoon reading the Holy Book of Women's Mysteries, and I really had to force myself to keep reading. Some of it is seriously terrible, especially when she was recounting her version of patriarchal takeover of the alleged original matriarchal tribes of Greece. She tells it like it's history, when there is no proof of any of her claims, and some of them don't even make sense. I'm not impressed.

Caelestis ♥ Raven
August 17th, 2010, 09:40 AM
I spent the afternoon reading the Holy Book of Women's Mysteries, and I really had to force myself to keep reading. Some of it is seriously terrible, especially when she was recounting her version of patriarchal takeover of the alleged original matriarchal tribes of Greece. She tells it like it's history, when there is no proof of any of her claims, and some of them don't even make sense. I'm not impressed.

It is a common pagan occurrence. I would say by far most of the books I have read have given some false history or angled toward their own opinions or views. Nothing new there & definitely not only within the Dianic path.

I think when reading any book it is best to keep an open mind as well as take it all with a grain of salt. If you are reading a book like hers, you can take the beautiful Goddess energy and passion from it and then use the history as a jumping off point for your own discovery and research into that.

The book though isn't for everyone. As I said before I personally loved it. Found it amazing and very inspiring and helpful when I was a little witch looking for answers and guidance :)

Maggie-in-the-Mead
November 2nd, 2010, 06:06 PM
I am no longer practicing Goddess-centered spirituality in any form but I did at one time and part of this involved being a part of Z's online Dianic course (this was about 5 years ago. I know it still exists but I don't think it's quite the same).

When I was involved with Z's work more closely I had mixed feelings. I found her harsh and even arrogant and I thought her "history" wasn't very accurate. But her work, her writings, her rituals... they are some of the most beautiful I have ever read and preformed. It's interesting that someone I can't quite swallow can make such beautiful things to me at the same time! I think that has been a great lesson for me. Though as I said I am not involved in Goddess-centered (or Goddess exclusive, however you phrase it) spirituality anymore I still have a lot of respect for the work Z does and hold a special place for her in my heart.

The "women born women" thing is something on the surface I struggle with but underneath it all I "get". Of course I believe in the sacredness and the differences between both sexes so though I can completely understand their being a woman only circle there should be allowed to be a men only one as well. I don't know Z's views on this but in the past I have known people who are all for women's only being 100% against anything men only. I know this comes from male being the default and people assume that the Patriarchal religions are men only enough but I disagree. Now I don't think this should exclude those who aren't straight (I don't think Z's path does, does it? Not on the female side at least) and I do question the idea of "women born women" as I think gender identity doesn't always match up to our genitals but overall I can be supportive of what Z is doing.

That all said I do think Z is more reactionary than anything else which I think can explain why she comes across the way she does. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing but I do think it adds perspective.

Sorry to crash the thread/board. Going back into lurkdom now...