Magic: what is it and how does it work?

[Caelestis ♥ Raven]

After seeing a bit of a disagreement in another thread on the limits and mundane nature lol, I thought I would create a thread on this topic.

the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will-Aleister Crowley

What do you feel magic is? How does magic work?

Does magic have its limits? What can be done with magic and what just can not be?

There are alot of different types of magic out there. Ceremonial magic is quite a bit different then say folk magic.

For example: I talked to someone once who believed that with magick they could change the weather, make it rain. Others who would surely say that is impossible.
Some people would feel you must do a huge ritual with lots of tools to create magick while others only use simplicity and themselves. I have heard some who say that spells are like prayers where we petition the gods and others who feel it all comes from within us, while others believe some mixture.

So just out of curiosity and discussion what do you believe?

[Newbieoffractals]

Personally, I believe magic is affecting chance, and luck, and maximizing your own abilities as can best be done. If it's likely to rain, and you cast a spell, it might tip that chance of rain to cause rain. It doesn't mean that if there's no chance of rain, that by using magic you can create rain if there's no water vapor in the air!

I personally believe there are pretty heavy limits on what magic can do, but there's still a lot that can be done with it. You can't make something happen that can't happen. You can do everything else with it.

I personally think magic takes many forms, but I'd say it's any form of energy work that does not involve petitioning the gods/local spirits for help. I believe asking the Gods for something, without forcing them to give it to you, is simply prayer. I honestly don't see the need to practice magic, but if a person does, it's their own choice.

Folk magic seems to often be lumped in with herbalism, and herbalism is a science(Well, a very basic one, and very crude.). A woman who saw that giving her children a tea of an plant she fount healed them might claim that she figured it out and healed them by casting a spell that can only work with that herb,and that you have to steep it if she didn't know the reason why the tea healed her children. In reality, the tea might have contained chemical compounds that speed healing, etc. Other parts of folk magic might be remnants from old religious rituals, turned into superstition over time.

[WanderlustAfar]

I personally believe that every single human being on this earth has the power to affect change in their lives. Therefore it's not a matter of 'can', it's more a matter of 'will'. If you believe you have limitations, you have limitations. As far as using a shitload of tools or none at all, I think many will agree with me when I say that tools are merely instruments that help you channel your magic, that help bring about the atmosphere you need to create magic. Someone with loads of skill (read: practice and self-discipline) will have a better go of performing magic with little or no tools than a beginner will.

More specifically, as far as what I believe for myself, I utterly believe that magic comes from within me. I seek the gods' assistance where appropriate, or, more succinctly, seek their protection and guidance. I have morals so that prevents me from doing certain TYPES of magic, but I 100 percent beleive that I can do anything I put my mind to. when it comes to things seemingly impossible, like walking on water, changing the weather, changing ones' appearance, etc., it's all a matter of what you, in your core, dismiss as being impossible. All of us, at some point, have these beliefs of what simply cannot be done; this is what limits us. When we finally learn to let go of that (and most never do; some only to a degree), we can do anything. A mon avis.

[Toby Stimpson]

I think that Magic is the same everywhere... but with different ways of going about it. Ultimatly Magic is a belief in action creating some change. That action could be anything from physical ritualized movement, to mental action (in the form of say active prayer, or thoughtforms.)

The major strands of magic are different and involve a lot of cultural and metaphysical/cosmological elements. I mean european medieval Ceremonial magic IS different from say, Hawaiian spirit invocating... but the essence is the same.

Do I believe that I can necessarily cause immediate things to happen with magic? No, not at all. I doubt and am skepticle of people who say that they can. But then again... and this may be a cop out, I think the question comes down to (for me atleast): where does the change happen? If we think that there may be multiple realities that affect each other, and certain forms of magical practice may affect other realities that may in fact affect ours. I guess, it all comes down to how you think about it.

One thing though that I have learned is that in the paths of Magic worldwide, it is wrong and a mistake to see it as one large big thing. It may sound contradictory to what I said earlier, but I think that we cannot in a categorical way suggest all magical systems are the same or come from the same place because each one works differently, or atleast, is believed to work in a different way.

[Simply Puzzled]

Some people would feel you must do a huge ritual with lots of tools to create magick while others only use simplicity and themselves.

I'm so tired of hearing this, perhaps because it's so often presented with an air of smugness - other people need lots of tools to do their work, but I don't. Can you site a source that says "you must do a huge ritual with lots of tools to create magic?" I'd be really interested in such a source.

Because, there are systems that involve huge rituals with lots of tools. The Golden Dawn comes to mind. They used lots of rituals and tools to create very specific energies and states of consciousness. However, they also recognized that there were other forms of magic, such as low magic, and they saw the tools as props which began to get discarded as people advanced. As Don Michael Kraig put it - an adept can create a more effective talisman out of a dirty rock than anything the novice can do.

[Lunar Raven]

I'm so tired of hearing this, perhaps because it's so often presented with an air of smugness - other people need lots of tools to do their work, but I don't. Can you site a source that says "you must do a huge ritual with lots of tools to create magic?" I'd be really interested in such a source.

Because, there are systems that involve huge rituals with lots of tools. The Golden Dawn comes to mind. They used lots of rituals and tools to create very specific energies and states of consciousness. However, they also recognized that there were other forms of magic, such as low magic, and they saw the tools as props which began to get discarded as people advanced. As Don Michael Kraig put it - an adept can create a more effective talisman out of a dirty rock than anything the novice can do.

I agree that some use the above comment in a smug manner..but I don't feel the topic poster was..he was really just making a clear point. Some feel the need to use many tools -- others don't. I don't see either as a weakness. If tools work for you (or a part of your tradition) use them..if not..don't. Simple.

[AmadoreEdana123]

I believe that magic is just energy, and that it comes from everything from the earth. I have energy within me and i believe everyone has some. To me its about being able to control it, bring it to you and then bend it or shape it into something I want it to be or send it somewhere i need help with within my body or somewhere out there. I believe magic is all about what you think you can accomplish. There are limitations if you believe there are. As for using tools and ceremonial magic, i think that you need to use whatever you need to use to accomplish the whole "i believe, i will". If it takes two red candles, some myrrh incense, a chalice, a besom, an athame, and some salt for you to get it done then use them! But I believe they are just tools. The magic, to me, comes from within. All you need is yourself.

[Winter_Witch]

I also believe that magic comes from within. After all, if you don't have the will, it will not manifest.

Simple magic is my kind of magic. I don't mean "easy", I mean the bare necessities: a photo of a sick loved one surrounded by healing stones and some incense to send your message up to the gods.

Some books say that you can add words like, "I know you will do this for me." or something to that effect. They say that it's just being confident. Well, to me, there's a line between confidence and being cocky. In my opinion, that's like saying, "Hey, man, look here. You better do this or else!" Yea, the gods would get a big laugh out of that.

Besides, if your magic didn't work (we can't always get what we want), and you talked like that, that would be a big damper on your faith.

[David19]

I'm so tired of hearing this, perhaps because it's so often presented with an air of smugness - other people need lots of tools to do their work, but I don't. Can you site a source that says "you must do a huge ritual with lots of tools to create magic?" I'd be really interested in such a source.

Because, there are systems that involve huge rituals with lots of tools. The Golden Dawn comes to mind. They used lots of rituals and tools to create very specific energies and states of consciousness. However, they also recognized that there were other forms of magic, such as low magic, and they saw the tools as props which began to get discarded as people advanced. As Don Michael Kraig put it - an adept can create a more effective talisman out of a dirty rock than anything the novice can do.

QFT :thumbsup:.

As for my definition of magic, I tend to think everyone has the power inside them already, they just need to figure out a way to tap into it, which accounts for the variety of methods out there, some are more into Ceremonial rituals, some may just prefer "simple" folk magic, some may develop their abilities through prolonged and deep meditation and altered states of consciousness, perhaps some make pacts (not necessarily demonic) with other beings, and maybe a few (probably a minority) are born with the knowledge of how to use their abilities, or they're more, consciously, aware of them, etc.

That's just my opinion.

[Simply Puzzled]

I agree that some use the above comment in a smug manner..but I don't feel the topic poster was

I don't think the poster was particularly smug; that's just one reason I'm so tired of hearing the argument.


he was really just making a clear point. Some feel the need to use many tools -- others don't.

That was not what the OP said. If the OP had said "some people feel that they must do a huge ritual with lots of tools" which is perfectly natural English, we could easily assume that your interpretation was correct. The OP instead chose to use "you", which in this context, refers not to the person making the claim but the audience. If I said "you must do the dishes tonight", you would not assume that I was talking about my own preferences for cleanliness.

B*B,

Cj

[Tom Terrific]

After seeing a bit of a disagreement in another thread on the limits and mundane nature lol, I thought I would create a thread on this topic.

the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will-Aleister Crowley

What do you feel magic is? How does magic work?

Does magic have its limits? What can be done with magic and what just can not be?

So just out of curiosity and discussion what do you believe?

If magic is causing change to occur in conformity with the will, then opening a door is magic, blowing a dandelion is magic, digging a well is magic. Is it possible that all these things are magic, and that our magical senses have been lulled to sleep by their familiarity? Is the dichotomy between the magical and the mundane a false one? Is the only real mundanity within us, when we have shut ourselves off from the magic of everyday experience?

I think there’s a lot to be said for this point of view.

I was taught that manipulative magic is black. If that is so, and all change-causing is magic, then the destruction of a forest can be black magic, strip mining can be black magic, mass production of beef and pork and chickens can be black magic—any act of change is black magic if committed without due regard for the thing acted upon.

Ecologists and environmentalists have sometimes blamed the Judeo-Christian concept that man is above nature for man’s abuse of nature. The idea is that, since Western man believes that nature is God’s gift to him to do with as he pleases, he has done exactly that and has desecrated the natural world with his pillaging and polluting, destroying habitats and wiping out species. What they are saying is that Western man has regarded the natural world as an object, a thing, to be manipulated; and look at the results.

Well, if all this is true, what should we do instead? How can we act to effect change without being manipulative?

We are so accustomed to thinking of the material world as being dead matter. What if it’s not? What if it’s conscious? What if, rather than regarding the material world as a thing to be acted upon, we instead regarded it as a partner in the act of creation? What if magic, good magic, is a dance in which the magician is permitted to lead rather than an act of enslavement wherein he bends his partners to his will? What if it’s about cooperation rather than compulsion?

There’s a book by Machaelle Small Wright entitled Behaving As If The God In All Things Mattered (http://www.amazon.com/Behaving-God-All-Life-Mattered/dp/0927978245/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266461102&sr=1-1), in which she chronicles some of her doings with devas, spirits of nature associated with all things. In it, she speaks of occurrences that most Wiccans and Witches only dream of doing: manifesting material objects out of thin air; and this was done through a cooperation between the devas and herself.

I think there is a great truth here, largely still waiting to be discovered.

[dr_zeus440]

"What is magic? There is the wizards explanation, which comes in two forms, depending on the age of the wizard. Older wizards talk about candles, circles, planets, stars, bananas, chants, runes and the importance of having atleast four good meals a day. Younger wizards, particularly the pale ones who spend most of their time in the high energy magic building (it was here that the thaum, hitherto believed to be the smallest possible particle of magic, was successfully demonstrated to be made up of resons (lit: 'thing-ies') or reality fragments. Current research indicates that each reson itself is made up of at least five 'flavours, known as 'up', 'down', 'sideways', 'sex appeal' and 'peppermint'.), chatter at length about fluxes in the morphic nature of the universe, the essentially impermanent quality of even the most apparently rigid time-space framework, the implausibility of reality and so on: what this means is that they have got hold of something hot and are gabbling the physics as they go along...

What is magic? Then there is the witches explanation, which comes in two forms, depending on the age of the witch. Older witches hardly put words to it at all, but may suspect in their hearts that the universe really doesnt know what the hell is going on and consists of a zillion trillion billion possibilities, and could become any one of them if a trained mind rigid with quantum certainty was inserted in the crack and twisted; that, if you really had to make someones hat explode, all you needed to do was twist into that universe where a large number of hat molecules all decide at the same time to bounce off in different directions. Younger witches, on the other hand, talk about it all the time and believe it involves crystals, mystic forces, and dancing about without yer drawers on. Everyone may be right, all at the same time. Thats the thing about quantum."

Lords and Ladies, Terry Pratchett.

[Gaudior]

Crowley's definition, in my opinion, is rather vague. I much prefer the definition of "hacking into the cosmos" to bring about what I wish, rather than sitting around waiting for a deity to do something about it.

[IanCorrigan]

the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will-Aleister Crowley

A nice definition, but rather too general, as it ignores the essentially spiritual nature of magic. After lots of thought I prefer this definition:
Magic is the use of spiritual skills for personal, self-willed goals.

How does magic work?

Magic works by manipulating subtle forces of causation according to the magician's will. Another good definition is from the Key of Solomon:

"Magic is the application of proper forces to proper targets, so that by being able to predict the results of the application the magician can produce a surprising result which, to the untaught, may seem a miracle."

Does magic have its limits? What can be done with magic and what just can not be?

All things that really exist have limits, so magic has limits. Largely magic is the manipulation of probability. Weather magic is doable, because subtle changes can produce major effects. Human minds can be changed, for the same reason. However, direct contradiction of the laws of matter and energy is unlikely, if not impossible. An apple cannot be made into a lawnmower, neither by magic nor by science.

There are alot of different types of magic out there. Ceremonial magic is quite a bit different then say folk magic.

In practice magic is more like an art than a science. Just as art can be done with mud, paint, steel, soundwaves or words, so magic can be done with or without tools, herbs, stones, etc. The only unchanging component of magic is the presence of a living mind. Beyond that it's all about style and personal preference.

I have heard some who say that spells are like prayers where we petition the gods and others who feel it all comes from within us, while others believe some mixture.

I don't think magic is much like prayer, in that prayer depends on a yes or no from a 'higher power'. When I do magic I may invoke deities or spirits and gain their aid - I may even do divination to determine whether they think my intention is a good idea, or what the outcome might be. However the final choice to do or not will be my own, and I expect to be able to generate or acquire the power to do it without depending on the cooperation of other entities. My human will directs my magic, regardless of the opinions of gods.

[sari0009]

After seeing a bit of a disagreement in another thread on the limits and mundane nature lol, I thought I would create a thread on this topic.

the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will-Aleister Crowley

What do you feel magic is? How does magic work?

Does magic have its limits? What can be done with magic and what just can not be?

There are alot of different types of magic out there. Ceremonial magic is quite a bit different then say folk magic.

For example: I talked to someone once who believed that with magick they could change the weather, make it rain. Others who would surely say that is impossible.
Some people would feel you must do a huge ritual with lots of tools to create magick while others only use simplicity and themselves. I have heard some who say that spells are like prayers where we petition the gods and others who feel it all comes from within us, while others believe some mixture.

So just out of curiosity and discussion what do you believe?

While the following definitions apply, I’d add that major ingredients of magic (http://sari0009.xanga.com/424182607/magic-and-spellwork/) include will, clarity, focus, choice, knowledge (including self-knowledge), the rational, the supposedly irrational, imagination, an understanding of the different choices of power, ethics, logic, reality checks, demonstrable character and, yes, the spiritual and religious, if one chooses.

Magic allows a more holistic approach to a goal in both immanent and transcendent terms. In this sense, magic differs from prayer, which focuses on the transcendent (external).

Definitions:




Amber K's True Magick (http://www.amazon.com/True-Magick-Llewellyns-New-Age/dp/0875420036/sr=8-1/qid=1160970531/ref=sr_1_1/104-9415230-5983156?ie=UTF8&s=books)offers definitions for magic, as I will now.

"The science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will." -- Aleister Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley)
"Magic is the art of changing consciousness (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=consciousness) at will." -- Dion Fortune (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=Dion%20Fortune)
"The technique of harnessing the secret power (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=secret%20power)s of Nature (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=Nature) and seeking to influence (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=influence) events for one's own purpose." -- Nevill Drury (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=Nevill%20Drury)
(1) A general term for arts, sciences, philosophies and technologies concerned with (a) understanding and using various altered states of consciousness within which it is possible to have access to and control over one's psychic talent (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=psychic%20talent)s, and (b) the uses and abuses of those psychic talents to change interior and/or exterior realities. (2) A science and an art comprising a system of concepts and methods for the build-up of human emotion (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=human%20emotion)s, altering the electrochemical balance (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=electrochemical%20balance) of the metabolism (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=metabolism), using associational techniques and devices to concentrate and focus this emotional energy, thus modulating the energies broadcast by the human body, usually to affect other energy pattern (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=energy%20pattern)s whether animate or inanimate, but occasionally to affect the personal energy pattern. (3) A collection of rule-of-thumb (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=rule-of-thumb) techniques designed to get one's psychic talents to do more or less what one wants, more often than not, one hopes. It should be obvious that these are thaumaturgical (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=thaumaturgical) definitions. -- Isaac Bonewits (http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=Isaac%20Bonewits)
Also see:

4 Llewellyn Definitions of Magic/Magick/ (http://www.llewellynencyclopedia.com/term/Magick)
Mind-n-Magick Wiccan and Pagan Glossary (http://mind-n-magick.com/glossary/glossary.php?letter=A)
http://biblia.com/wit/glos.htm (http://biblia.com/wit/glos.htm) An example of what I wouldn't rely on for the best definitions.
http://www.spiritualitea.com/articles/paganglossary.shtml (http://www.spiritualitea.com/articles/paganglossary.shtml) One of my favorite glossaries (because of the thought and experience behind each definition).

Weather magic? Generally, the larger and more complex the system or condition, the less effective the magic is. Considering the complexity and size of the weather system, which is global, I don’t think so! That doesn’t stop people from crediting weather magic when things do go their way though.

Limits…limits would include personal limits (known or unrecognized), limits dictated by Mother Nature, limits created by ignorance/scope of comprehension, limits resulting from choice of strategy, limits that come from working against the flow of things, limits created by level of improbability, and limits created by complexity and/or size of the system(s) involved…just to name a few.

Tools? If a practitioner believes they must use tools, then they’re not likely to get suitable results if they don’t prep and use tools according to their beliefs. Other practitioners rarely use or do not use tools at all and get excellent results. I’d say the best tools are ones that don’t take physical form (other than that of the practitioner him or herself). (See major ingredients of magic, above.)

Magic is practiced by both the religious and spiritual-but-not-religious. Additionally, definition of deity, divine and worship will affect how and why one practices.
Here's who I define these:

Divine
Universal and other forces, internal and/or external, that allow patterns to exist, come into creation, change, play, and cease. It's in the stars, the dark matter, our galaxies and planets; it's within us -- the Divine is both immanent (internal) and transcendent (external). Divine is best perceived from a pluralistic and multidisciplinary approach rather than a proprietary one (the same thing is true of virtues/ethics (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sari0009&nextdate=5%2f20%2f2008+23%3a59%3a59.999), they're not proprietary either (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sari0009&nextdate=11%2f29%2f2007+23%3a59%3a59.999)).

Deity
Strong patterns and metapatterns (anthropomorphized or not) both immanent and transcendent. Forces of nature, various other phenomena, people, archetypes, various dynamics, and anthropomorphized Gods and Goddesses can all be considered Deities.

Worship
To honor to the worth of _____. This is not about groveling before some God in some cosmic hierarchy. Worship is often reciprocal in nature and suitable for power metaparadigm of mutual courtesy and respect (aka Equality) (http://sari0009.xanga.com/603410074/imagination-and-virtues-of-equality/). Doing wrong in the name of any God/ideology is nothing more than rationalized wrong, it's still not okay, and it's one's duty to imagine a better choice of action. An individual should, without eclipsing the primacy of ethics and virtues, be quite capable of navigating emotional, intellectual, political, sexual, religious, spiritual, and other landscapes. So, to define worship, what it is, what it isn't, I find it necessary to differentiate between religion and religionism. I got further into the topic of worship here (http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=4150737&postcount=23).
Although I follow the protocols of which ever religion I'm practicing at the time, a more fluid understanding of these terms means that I can practice magic in a very eclectic (heretical) manner and still get excellent results. If someone believes they are asking anthropomorphized Gods favors, they will act accordingly or they may not get desirable results.

Even though magic ritual is delineated by protocols and other considerations/preparations, I view magic as a more focused well tended focused holistic goal attainment and do not believe in any real division between what we call magic and the mundane. The magic flows from conception, preparation, ritual, and mundane follow through, often expressed and experienced in everyday life in some cases. In this way, there can be incredible carryover potential. For me, life is magic, if you think about it, and no, that doesn’t make it any less awe inducing and deeply spiritual…quite the opposite, actually.