Witches and Pagans

[David19]

I recently finished reading 'The Roebuck in the Thicket: An Anthology of the Robert Cochrane Tradition' by Robert Cochrane & Evan John Jones, edited by Michael Howard (http://www.amazon.com/Roebuck-Thicket-Anthology-Witchcraft-Tradition/dp/1861631553), and really loved it, and some of the things Cochrane said made me think.

In one of the chapters (and I haven't got it in front of me, so, it won't be a direct quote), Cochrane said something like "when is a Witch not a Witch? when they're a Pagan", and, from a lot of the things Cochrane said, it seems Witchcraft, at least his version of Traditional Witchcraft, was a seperate entity to Paganism and Witches were not Pagans (I think Cochrane even said some of the sort like, in certain aspects, there was more in common with Catholicism than certain aspects of Paganism, which, I've been told something similar by another Traditional Witch), and, I was just wondering, would you agree with this?, do you think Witches (at least, Traditional Witches) are not Pagan, but, more of a seperate entity, or group?, or do you think Witches are more Pagan, and part of the Pagan community?.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to some of your replies.

Thanks.

[Juniper138]

One has to rememeber that Cochrane had a thing against Gardner and his folks. He wanted to set himself up as better than those Wiccans. He had a lot of animosity towards them, so in his eyes you couldn't be a Witch and a Pagan.

For the record, plenty of Wiccans at the time didn't like Cochrane and his group either. Lots of pissing contests and territory disputes happening at the time.

Take it with a grain of salt.

[David19]

One has to rememeber that Cochrane had a thing against Gardner and his folks. He wanted to set himself up as better than those Wiccans. He had a lot of animosity towards them, so in his eyes you couldn't be a Witch and a Pagan.

For the record, plenty of Wiccans at the time didn't like Cochrane and his group either. Lots of pissing contests and territory disputes happening at the time.

Take it with a grain of salt.

Thanks for the input, that's what I heard, Cochrane didn't like Gardner (I think he saw him as a con artist, and a media whore or something like that, and saw other Gardnerians in a similar way).

[electricpeppers]

I read that book too last year, although my memory is a little fuzzy on it now. I think the definition of Traditional Craft is rather varied and certainly in Cochranes stream, he included one or two Gnostic type teachings and Luciferian elements -- if I recall correctly.

I think Cochrane saw Witches as different than Pagans. In one of the books I read, it said that in relation to the afterlife, Witches won't be left with the rest of the Pagans they'd be in their Castle because they dared in life to create it. Or something... my brain is a little fuzzy on the details!

Other Traditional Witches, especially Heathen Witches, would disagree that Witches aren't Pagans. As those who practice Traditional Witchcraft in a Germanic way view it as having orginated in that culture... which is Pagan/Heathen. But I think it's that old line between practice (craft) and religion. Witches see it differently.

It's interesting that Cochrane disliked Gardner so. Because I've read that some today think of Cochrane's ideas as rather 'Wiccan'.

[David19]

I read that book too last year, although my memory is a little fuzzy on it now. I think the definition of Traditional Craft is rather varied and certainly in Cochranes stream, he included one or two Gnostic type teachings and Luciferian elements -- if I recall correctly.

I think Cochrane saw Witches as different than Pagans. In one of the books I read, it said that in relation to the afterlife, Witches won't be left with the rest of the Pagans they'd be in their Castle because they dared in life to create it. Or something... my brain is a little fuzzy on the details!

That's what I read too, I think Cochrane said something like, Pagans would be left on the edges of the River Styx, and Witches were the ones who would dare to cross it. Evan John Jones (and, I think, Cochrane?) said, people can create their afterlives, that there can be an infinite number of afterlife worlds for people, so the Christian Heaven (& Hell) exists, the Islamic Paradise, the Buddhist Heavenly, and Hellish, dimensions, the Hellenic afterlife, the Kemetic Duat, or, one that you want to create yourself (like if you were a huge fan of Buffy, you could, I'm assuming, go to the Buffyverse), etc. At least, that's what I understood.

He also gave an exercise to try and see the afterlife of Witches. Doreen Valiente is also another one who stated that Witches go to a different afterlife, which she got from an, apparant, dead Witch communicating with her, he called it Witchdom.

Also, from my readings (and by far, they are not as extensive as some, I consider myself very much a beginner and a student), there are some very Gnostic, and Luciferian, elements within Traditional Witchcraft, some moreso than others.

I like how Cochrane isn't as anti-Christian as some later Pagans became (in fact, he hinted at connections between Witchcraft and certain aspects of Christianity, which I've also been told by another Tradtional Witch I respect). There's also connections with Judaism (1734 and YHWH).


Other Traditional Witches, especially Heathen Witches, would disagree that Witches aren't Pagans. As those who practice Traditional Witchcraft in a Germanic way view it as having orginated in that culture... which is Pagan/Heathen. But I think it's that old line between practice (craft) and religion. Witches see it differently.

That's true, I tend to favour Cochrane's approach more.


It's interesting that Cochrane disliked Gardner so. Because I've read that some today think of Cochrane's ideas as rather 'Wiccan'.

I think they can seem Wiccan at first, but, it may be just 'cause they deal with similar Mysteries, in other ways, both traditions can be quite different (but, can overlap).

[CelticMoon11]

I guess it would also depend on your definition of what it is to be 'pagan' and 'paganism' and how that fits with what Cochrane considers traditional witchcraft to be

[Cassie]

Most witches I know would be "pagan" under the loose description of Paganism meaning any non Abrahamic religious tradition. However, there are also Christian witches.
In general I'd say most witches are pagan but not all pagans are witches. I think therefore that Cochrane's ideas are very specific to his own beliefs and tradition.