Can't stand a fellow coven member...

[Sacreligioushippie]

Ok maybe that was a little harsh but I'm having a really hard time working with a fellow coven member. Our coven just started at Imbolc but we've all been Wiccan for years. We all agreed this is an eclectic learning coven without a hierarchy. One of our members is really rubbing a few of us the wrong way. Not like in a creepy way. He just questions everything we try to do. For example, we all got together to write our Ostara ritual and he argued everything from the colors to the gods to what everyone was bringing for a potluck afterwards. Now he's asked that we cancel our Ostara ritual so he can attend an Ostara ritual that one of the pagan temples is having the same night as ours. We've all been nice & most of us have tried to be understanding but for me I'm starting to dread meeting with the coven. Any suggestions on how I can be more tolerant of my fellow coven member?

[Caitlin.ann]

Ok maybe that was a little harsh but I'm having a really hard time working with a fellow coven member. Our coven just started at Imbolc but we've all been Wiccan for years. We all agreed this is an eclectic learning coven without a hierarchy. One of our members is really rubbing a few of us the wrong way. Not like in a creepy way. He just questions everything we try to do. For example, we all got together to write our Ostara ritual and he argued everything from the colors to the gods to what everyone was bringing for a potluck afterwards. Now he's asked that we cancel our Ostara ritual so he can attend an Ostara ritual that one of the pagan temples is having the same night as ours. We've all been nice & most of us have tried to be understanding but for me I'm starting to dread meeting with the coven. Any suggestions on how I can be more tolerant of my fellow coven member?

**** him. Do whats best for the whole group, and forget about the hang ups of one single person.

[Phoenix Blue]

Any suggestions on how I can be more tolerant of my fellow coven member?
Tell him you want him to feel valued, but that the power trips have to stop. He's not going to always get his way, and the group's not going to cancel events just because he wants to attend somewhere else.

Who's in charge of the coven? This is something s/he needs to deal with, if possible.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

We all agreed this is an eclectic learning coven without a hierarchy.


Your problem is addressed right there. When any group gets together they have to have a hierarchy to address group dynamic issues. Without one you have no group only a social club that happens to meet. A strong personality will always rise to try and take control when none is present and establish order and structure.

The are no rules and can be no rules when there is no one to enforce those rules. More importantly there is no one to mediate between opinions and positions so all are seen to be of equal importance and validity.

Hate to say it but it sounds as if you (collective) do not understand the dynamics of group interaction and member importance..

[Sacreligioushippie]

Well I guess we have someone in charge. I mean we wouldn't meet if she wasn't available but she's not like a complete dictator or anything. We were trying to have a “majority rules" group.
I think part of the problem with this guy is that he's very awkward socially. I also think he's read more than he's practiced. We asked if he wanted to cast circle for the Ostara ritual & he wants us to tell him exactly what to say so he can practice beforehand. He's not very confident in what he does. Which is why I'm trying to be understanding.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Ah now you have the horse of a different color. It sounds like you got the person who is trying to impress about what he does know but is insecure with other's who appear to know. Actually a pretty common trait to hide your limitations by appearing forward and demanding.

Were I in a group like that and in charge I would assign the person something to do that would be thier task alone. Provide guidance but leave the bulk to them. It gives them a chance to grow and gain experience but inversely many times it shuts them up as well.

But it still takes a centeral figure with a position of authority to implement and encourage such a idea.

[Ivy Artemisia]

I'm sorry- this gets a little tangenty.

I agree with the points already explained. IME, someone has to be in charge in order for things to go smoothly. This includes fixing the issue with the coven member that bugs you. The person in charge should move the meeting along, or if everyone is having issues with this person, speak to him individually about it. Or work with that person individually, if they are less learned than the others. It’s obvious that there is an unofficial leader- someone needs to assume some sort of authority and work with him, and be a confidant so he doesn’t have to feel so socially awkward or unpracticed compared to the rest of you.

Many people associate hierarchy with a dictatorship, but that’s not how it usually functions. A leader needs to be elected to coordinate, make decisions, and enforce any rules. It doesn’t mean that you need to have a high priest/ess, but you could easily elect a leader, or share leadership on a rotating basis. Some sort of structure seems to be necessary for a group to be –or develop into- a strong working group. Someone needs to be the one to tell your fellow covener that its not going to be about him- its about the needs of the group and what's best for the group. Someone needs to be looking out for the good of the group as a whole.

In my group, we have a hierarchy. I am the high priestess, but really- that doesn’t mean that I make all of the decisions. The only time I ever make a decision on my own is when a) there is no time to get everyone’s opinions, or b) everyone can’t come to an agreement. Usually we come to an agreement, but that’s because we are so like-minded- a product of our membership process. As HPS, I don’t write all of the rituals- we all compile our sabbats together, we all grow as a group. I’m not the queen bee – just because I have the fancy letters.

If a bunch of random people come together and call themselves a coven, that’s not going to automatically mean that everyone is going to like one another. Or that everyone will have the same (or even similar) goals or expectations. We have a long membership process that enables aspirants and current members to really get to know one another before initiation- and it will naturally weed out those who are argumentative, or who don’t have similar goals to ours. A coven compact or set of bylaws can outline expectations of the members in the group- including attendance, etc.

I was in a group like yours, once. It was structured, but not really- no one enforced the rules, no one set expectations, no one talked about the goal of the group. It was disjointed, not close-knit, hive mind was next to nothing, and it was all over the place. The lessons I learned there helped me understand group dynamics a lot better.

My suggestion to you is to talk to the person who is unofficially in charge. Talk about some expectations and goals of the group. What happens if someone flakes out on a gathering? What are the attendance expectations? Let me tell you- this is a biggie. When the person who is supposed to be bringing drinks to the potluck flakes out- who will pick up the slack? Who will do their part of the ritual?

You are an eclectic learning coven right now- how eclectic is eclectic? Any pantheon? Any path? What exactly are you going to be studying together- eclecticism is such a wide spectrum, to learn anything in depth under such an umbrella would take years. Especially if everyone has different knowledge levels. Will all knowledge levels be taken into account in regards to lessons? Do you plan on developing into a working coven? Where does the coven expect to be in a year? Three years? Five years? Is there a learning plan? Is it more a casual group than a coven?

Most covens fold within a year- I believe the main cause of this is lack of structure including the lack of common expectations and goals. This ends up causing member dynamic issues, unresolved conflicts, and unhappy members. IMO, a coven is like a family- you should be able to trust your fellow members, and accept their issues, like you would a sibling. It takes a long time to get to that place- it’s not instant, but it’s worth all the work to get there.

[Juniper138]

Could you take him aside and gently ask him to tone it down a little? tell him he is intimidating some of the other members and not letting them have the space the express themselves?

[Sacreligioushippie]

Were I in a group like that and in charge I would assign the person something to do that would be thier task alone.
But it still takes a centeral figure with a position of authority to implement and encourage such a idea.

Oddly enough, the woman who organized the group has did this last week, so hopefully he'll calm down now.

Ivy - Your group sounds similar to what mine is. We have a high priestess (she's the one who put the group together), she's taken the same stance as you. The rest of the group gets along fine except for this one guy. I even think she's losing patience with him.

I may actually ask her what she thinks about the whole situation.

Thank you to everyone who posted.

[Jenett]

You've already gotten some great advice - definitely talk to the woman who's done more of the organising.

As well, some stuff oyu might want to consider:
- A meeting focused on exactly what your ground rules are. (What's the process for designing ritual? When do you decide to reschedule or cancel plans? What happens if someone has to miss a ritual or event they've got a specific role in?) All of those things are good simple things to have everyone understand. (They don't need to be everyone's first choice for how to handle the situation, either - just something everyone can live with.)

So, for example, you might all decide that you plan rituals together, but that there's a process to keep the planning meetings from taking all day, or getting derailed. You might decide that it's okay for individuals to miss a ritual for another event, but that you won't cancel or reschedule unless *everyone* needs to be somewhere else. (In these cases, there's often also a rule that if someone misses more than X group events in a year, their membership in the group is in question - so everyone gets a chance to be elsewhere a couple of times if needed, but not all the time.)

You might also talk about coming up with some baseline ways to do common tasks - cast circle, for example. Alternatives might be welcome, but it'd give you a shared framework that you could all fall back on at times when you didn't want to explore a new method.

One other final thing - it often takes quite a few meetings for group dynamics to settle out. What you're talking about here is actually a really important part of a group coming together. Chances are, the end result will work really well for some people - but there may be a couple of people who end up deciding that the end result or the way the group got there isn't for them. That's not a failure of the group or the process automatically. (It can be, if people are stupid about managing the process, of course) But often it's just that the group gels, and that's a better fit for some people than for others.

One thing that can help is planning to include exercises for 3-6 months that help you all get on the same page about what you know, want to share, and want to do together. They don't need to be a big deal (many of them can be done in 15 minutes or so) but they'll help get everyone closer to the same page. Amber K suggests a number in her book Coven Craft, but most of the books about running a coven include at least a few.