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View Full Version : And the Goetia Discussion Continues



KenazFilan
March 17th, 2010, 12:46 AM
[from http://kenazfilan.blogspot.com]

In his latest post, Frater Rufus Opus (http://headforred.blogspot.com/2010/03/waking-up-from-goetic-sleep.html) says:

Have you noticed how quick people are to blame the spirits in Goetia when things go badly? I've never seen any system so quick to get booted to the curb in spite of previous successes. Magicians can have years of good results with a spirit, but if they have one bad experience, all the spirits of the system are bad bad bad.

There are so many assumptions and prejudices surrounding these spirits that the skills required to use them effectively, consistently may never be gained, documented, and disseminated to the occult community. It's annoying as hell. If people shelved Angelic Magic, Planetary Magic, or even your average Pagan conjurations of Hekate every time they had a ritual provide results they didn't like, no one would do any magic at all.
I think one of the reasons for this is that when Goetic workings go bad they tend to do so in a spectacular fashion. Planetary or Pagan workings don't generally explode with quite that degree of messiness. (I have, however, seen this kind of blowback from lwa and orisha workings that went awry. I've talked to at least one person who sought Oya's assistance in solving the problems with the money pit house he had just purchased. Oya solved them by burning said house down. Unfortunately, he had been so busy paying for repairs that he neglected to purchase homeowner's insurance. He later on became an initiate in Lukumi: I don't recall whether or not Oya was his crowning orisha, but I trust that in any event he was more careful about asking her for favors).

If lots of people who have worked with the Goetia tell horror stories about the Goetic spirits turned on them, they may all be falling prey to their Judeochristian conditioning. Or they may have decided the risk outweighs the reward. It seems that lots of people who have worked with the Goetia talk about getting their fingers burned. Not all of them are cowards, Christian fundamentalists or incompetent magicians.

That being said, I would be interested in seeing a useful system which allowed magicians to work with the Goetic entities safely, consistently and effectively. Such systems exist for the lwa and orisha: those who get badly burned generally do so because they don't know those systems or think they are unnecessary. I suspect that consistently safe Goetic workings will involve many of the trappings which some modern magicians believe are unnecessary.

The really funny part though? When things go well with Goetia, it's because the magicians are following the grimoire's instructions properly, or are psychically shielded, or somehow appropriately initiated, or otherwise prepared the way a good magician should be, but if things go badly, the spirits themselves are somehow corrupt, kick you when you're down, or are "corrosive."If a spell works, I presume it is because the magician did things correctly. If a spell blows up in the magician's face, I presume it is because said magician made a mistake. I'm not sure why Frater R.O. would object to that classification. If one keeps a magical diary, presumably one of the reasons is to ascertain what works, what does not work, and what really, really, really does not work.

I hear many more tales of Goetic workings gone awry than Angelic, Enochian, Wiccan, Planetary, etc. workings. My own experience suggests that the spirits I worked with had detrimental effects on my mental and spiritual well-being. (I believe that I could have avoided much if not all of that pain by being more careful with shielding and coming at the ritual from a place of calm rather than a highly emotional state: I found that Goetic work, like boxing, requires concentration and focus and once you start fighting rather than boxing you've lost the match... ). So I think it is reasonable to at least entertain the idea that these creatures are hard to handle at best and actively hostile to humanity at worst.

Again, I am not using the words "corrupt," "evil," "demonic," etc. to describe the Goetic entities. I am simply suggesting that there may be some good reasons for their bad reputation. I believe they are more difficult to handle than many other spirits and less forgiving of mistakes on the part of the summoner. This is not the same as saying they are "evil." Venomous snakes are no more "evil" than nonvenomous snakes -- but I don't recommend handling a king cobra the same way you handle a boa constrictor.

Objectively speaking, I've had at least as many, if not more positive results that I was happy with after Working the so-called demons as I've had with alleged Angels. I've been disappointed more with the Angels, but mostly because when I want something badly enough to do magic about it, I want the results like f****g yesterday, man! Not in a couple of weeks.
This is another thing which makes me think the Goetic entities are very like the "djabs chaud" (hot djabs) of Haitian magic. They get you quick results, and tend to specialize in making changes to the material world. But they are hard to handle and can do injury to the summoner and those in the immediate vicinity if they get too riled up. It doesn't mean they are to be avoided altogether: there are many magical workings one can do with a djab as an ally or a travay (work) spirit. But it is vital that the practitioner recognizes the danger and takes the appropriate precautions.

Torey
April 14th, 2010, 10:36 PM
I agree that you hear much more from practitioners (Ceremonial) claiming that their Goetic workings have gone awry or that they have experienced negative outcomes from their 'relationships' with these Spirits - but I have only ever seen these claims coming from practitioners who are using techniques outlined in the LKS and other similar Grimoires. Many Demonolators use a different approach and I have yet to see one such person report a negative experience with any of the Goetia. It lends credibility to the idea that the practitioner's experience with the Spirits may be dictated by his or her approach.

KenazFilan
April 14th, 2010, 10:39 PM
I agree that you hear much more from practitioners (Ceremonial) claiming that their Goetic workings have gone awry or that they have experienced negative outcomes from their 'relationships' with these Spirits - but I have only ever seen these claims coming from practitioners who are using techniques outlined in the LKS and other similar Grimoires. Many Demonolators use a different approach and I have yet to see one such person report a negative experience with any of the Goetia. It lends credibility to the idea that the practitioner's experience with the Spirits may be dictated by his or her approach.

Torey: I'd be interested in hearing more about this. Where can I learn more about these "Demonolatry" approaches. I've run across Michael W. Ford's name a few times: he seems to practice a form of Luciferian Witchcraft. (Although I've also heard he borrowed liberally from Andrew Chumbley and England's Cultus Sabbati people). Are there any names you would particularly recommend?

EntwinedScylla
April 15th, 2010, 03:47 AM
I believe Frater R.O. is really highlighting the flippant, bipolar, attitudes in the Goetic community.

There are folks who have worked closely with a singular being from the Goetia for years, and begin to get too comfortable and in their comfort get sloppy. Rather than accepting the blame, they great the spirit like a rabid dog, and banish with Ye Shotgun Of Ye Arte.

It's not that the beings are "bad" it's that they are not human, and aren't particularly beholden to our ways of viewing the world. They must be approached with respect, care, and proper ritual. Why? As much for our own safety as their own assurance that we're serious about what we're looking for.

The best way to view a Goetic spirit is to watch a lot of Star Trek and realize they're not that far off from Klingons. :toofless:

Torey
April 15th, 2010, 05:04 AM
Torey: I'd be interested in hearing more about this. Where can I learn more about these "Demonolatry" approaches. I've run across Michael W. Ford's name a few times: he seems to practice a form of Luciferian Witchcraft. (Although I've also heard he borrowed liberally from Andrew Chumbley and England's Cultus Sabbati people). Are there any names you would particularly recommend?

Yes, Ford is a plagiarist and I have a hard time taking him seriously. But if you're interested, the best resource for researching Demonolatry and its practices would be the material available from the Ordo Flammeus Serpens (OFS), a modern Demonolatry sect which is one of the only sects actually publishing material online and in books.

The OFS bases much of its structure on the practices of very ancient family sects and general Hermetic borrowings. Most of their rituals are not terribly original, but their approach to working with Demons is most assuredly.

You can find their website here:

http://ofs-demonolatry.org

I wouldn't say the OFS is the end-all be-all of Demonolatry, but at least it gives one a good idea of what the path is all about.

KenazFilan
April 26th, 2010, 01:03 PM
is this like ouija using some rug instead of a board and compass thingy

Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. Do you have any other pearls of wisdom you might like to share with us?