Catholic Church sex abuse scandals around the world

[Cassie]

So The Pope will issue a pastoral letter to the people of Ireland to apologise for the glut of child sex abuse scandals which have recently surfaced. (Meanwhile in some parts of Ireland Bishops are urging members of their church to contribute towards the legal fees of defending Priests accused of child abuse)!
In Germany another glut of paedophilia scandals are dominating the news and some of these come quite close to implicating the Pope himself in the cover up of some of these cases.
Similar things are happening as far apart as The USA, Austria and The Netherlands.
The following link from the BBC gives a summary of recent Catholic child abuse scandals and cover ups around the world and links to similar recent stories. Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8576268.stm)

Do you think the Catholic Church can survive this? Should it? Why do you think this has happened? Should the Pope resign?

[Twinkle]

I think the Church will survive. It went through a huge scandal not to long about with a Catholic priest (the guy on Oprah) was found out to be having an affair with a woman. The guy resigned and became an Episcopalian priest. The faithful were angry and threatening to leave the Church, but they don't.

The child abuse scandals in the Church years ago haven't changed anything either. John Paul II didn't resign, but made the Church's position clear.

Back then they were just shuffling pedophile priests around. I believe now the Church is getting rid of them.

I think ultimately, what men of the cloth do as *human beings* has nothing to do with the Church as a whole. All humans are sinners after all. The greater sin is hiding it when the Church *knows*. That (I believe) has been rectified.

The Church will make it through this one too. They have been dealing with it for I daresay decades already.

[Nicholas]

It will survive this. In 100 years time some pope will appologize for the sins of the Catholic church and these incidents will be among them.

They do that every hundred years or so.

[Cassie]

I think the Church will survive. It went through a huge scandal not to long about with a Catholic priest (the guy on Oprah) was found out to be having an affair with a woman. The guy resigned and became an Episcopalian priest. The faithful were angry and threatening to leave the Church, but they don't.

The child abuse scandals in the Church years ago haven't changed anything either. John Paul II didn't resign, but made the Church's position clear.
I also think the church will probably survive. However I think the sheer scale and geographical spread of all the recent revelations is making this into an issue far bigger than anything the Catholic hierarchy has had to deal with in many decades. Also the fact that some of the cover-ups involve involve Bishops and priests at the top end of the Vatican.


Back then they were just shuffling pedophile priests around. I believe now the Church is getting rid of them.
The problem is that according to many of the latest revelations the Catholic Church has not been getting rid of them;- they have indeed just been moving them around and keeping things quiet. A German Bishop admitted yesterday that he had "persuaded" a complainant to sign a virtual gag order.


I think ultimately, what men of the cloth do as *human beings* has nothing to do with the Church as a whole.
It is if they abuse the position of authority the church itself has given them.

All humans are sinners after all.
Luckily, I don't buy into that doctrine!

The greater sin is hiding it when the Church *knows*. That (I believe) has been rectified.
Sadly, I think you are mistaken there.

[Twinkle]

I don't buy the doctrine either, but that's the spin they give to the faithful, and they buy it hook, line, and sinker. That's why the Church will survive. They believe it...it's the Doctrine.

Pope John Paul II said, and I quote ""there is no place in the priesthood and religious life for those who would harm the young". The problem it would seem then, would be more about ignoring Papal edicts then it would the Church itself. CYA seems to be more important than what the Central Authority of the Church says.

The other issue is that the reforms set in place by John Paul II were not adequate in being able to stop sexual deviants into the priesthood. Background checks don't cut it and looking for obvious homosexuals is just plain wrong thinking. And yes, those are the reforms they made in an attempt to stop it.

The priests are not the Holy Catholic Church. They were never meant to be authorities. Unfortunately, many Catholics have taught their children to revere the priest at all costs because he is "A Man of God". It places an ultimate trust where there should be none. A priest is still a man. Did he use his position and use his authority to abuse a child? Yes. But that is the profile of any child predator.

[EntwinedScylla]

I think it's telling when the Vatican head of exorcisms says that the Church itself is under the oppression of demonic forces, and desperately needs to be individually and collectively purged of that influence.

If it wants to survive, The Church must change, evolve... and yes, cast out it's literal and metaphorical demons.

[Twinkle]

That's the thing. It thrives on Tradition. Tradition can adapt, but it cannot change into something else or else it's no longer Traditional, and no longer the Church.

This pedophile thing is really not anything new. Pedophiles hide in all areas where they have close proximity to children and use their authority to do so.

Unfortunately, it's more publicized because they are "priests.".

But they're also soccer coaches, teachers, Principals of Schools, Boy or Girl Scout Leaders, the ice cream man, the comic book salesman, longtime friends of the family, or relatives.

The Church needs to kick all of them out and hand them over to the authorities. I'd recommend psych testing to rule out those tendencies, and strict monitoring of those that are working with children.

Parents need to teach their kid not to trust anyone, including priests, and come forward should someone want to touch them in areas that they know are private.

[Erebos]

This pedophile thing is really not anything new. Pedophiles hide in all areas where they have close proximity to children and use their authority to do so.

Unfortunately, it's more publicized because they are "priests.".

But they're also soccer coaches, teachers, Principals of Schools, Boy or Girl Scout Leaders, the ice cream man, the comic book salesman, longtime friends of the family, or relatives.

Yup, it's not just priests, pedophiles can be anyone. Priest pedophiles get more publicity, but, from what I've read, there really aren't that many.

I do think the lifelong celibacy is a problem, however. I'm not saying it causes people to be perverted, but sexually predators are probably more likely to strike if they have no other sexual outlet.

[Twinkle]

I don't know that celibacy creates an environment where pedophiles can act out.

Pedophiles are often married with their own children.

There are different types of pedophiles, and depending on their "preference" they act in different ways.

Celibacy is not really a trigger for these tendencies. It's a compulsion that can't be stopped, even if they are sexually active with adults.

[Erebos]

I don't know that celibacy creates an environment where pedophiles can act out.

Pedophiles are often married with their own children.

There are different types of pedophiles, and depending on their "preference" they act in different ways.

Celibacy is not really a trigger for these tendencies. It's a compulsion that can't be stopped, even if they are sexually active with adults.

That's true, celibacy doesn't really cause pedophiles to act out. I just don't agree with priestly celibacy, in general :p

[Twinkle]

Neither do I. I do think that a priest can serve his God and community while still being married to his wife and even having children.

Celibate priests creates scandal. If they could marry or even date, no more scandal.

[Nuadu]

Do you think the Catholic Church can survive this?

It survived having 2 anitpopes at one go, centuries of crusading and schizm not to mention reformation... or the fall of the roman empire.


Should it?

IMO yes it should survive. Religion isnt 'an old means of social control' its a modern means of social control. Older forms of religion like roman catholicism are intertwined with cultures and serve a cultural function. It allows people to cope with great losses individual and communal, it sacralises the landscape people inhabit, it provides a forum for ethical debate in the culture at a time when all ethics take a back seat to personal gain... That cultural function its why christianity is so diverse in different parts of the world despite being monotheist and heavily codified . [edit: removing roman catholicism from those cultures is like boning a fish, it may someday be replaced by an indigenous religious belief, but it cant just be surgically removed.]


Why do you think this has happened?
Im not up on world history but I would guess that either some deliberate reform took place throughout europe in the 19th century or it took place just in Ireland cos the social status of religion changed with economic and political cirumstances in the country. [edit: That change put the church in a position of unqestionable authority and it allowed for bad things to happen. Personally I find the magdalene laundries far more offensive given our countries traditional distain for the concept of illigitimacy]

Theres a good book called priests and people in pre famine Ireland 1780 - 1845 by a lecturer here in maynooth that illustrates the change in the church if anyones interested



Should the Pope resign?
Popes die but they cant resign because they are appointed by god. From hence comes the hellish concept of papal infallability and the reason that letter from Ratz is so carefully worded.

[David19]

Back then they were just shuffling pedophile priests around. I believe now the Church is getting rid of them.

That's very true, apparantly, my Mum was saying that one pedophile Priest got sent to a Church very near us, and it was known he was a pedophile. I wasn't in danger, 'cause I wasn't raised Catholic, but, that's really disgusting to think how he may have abused kids near me.


I think it's telling when the Vatican head of exorcisms says that the Church itself is under the oppression of demonic forces, and desperately needs to be individually and collectively purged of that influence.

If it wants to survive, The Church must change, evolve... and yes, cast out it's literal and metaphorical demons.

QFT, Father Amorth seems a little....out there, to put it nicely, but, I'd say he was onto something when he said demonic forces had a foothold in his Church, I'd say they probably have, metephorically and, probably, literally.


Unfortunately, it's more publicized because they are "priests.".

But they're also soccer coaches, teachers, Principals of Schools, Boy or Girl Scout Leaders, the ice cream man, the comic book salesman, longtime friends of the family, or relatives.

The Church needs to kick all of them out and hand them over to the authorities. I'd recommend psych testing to rule out those tendencies, and strict monitoring of those that are working with children.

Parents need to teach their kid not to trust anyone, including priests, and come forward should someone want to touch them in areas that they know are private.

QFT - pedophiles should not be tolerated, accepted or anything like that at all, and parents need to educate their kids so they know the dangers, not to scare them for no reason and distrust all strangers, but, so, they won't be taken advantage of (and not just about Priests, but, teachers, neighbours, soccer or football coaches, etc).


I do think the lifelong celibacy is a problem, however. I'm not saying it causes people to be perverted, but sexually predators are probably more likely to strike if they have no other sexual outlet.

Twinkle already said it, but, celibacy isn't the issue, sometimes, sexual repression can lead to negative things, but, a lot of the time, people are called to give up sexual pleasures, from Catholic Priests, Monks and Nuns, to Buddhist Monks, Nuns, and many Hindu Yogis and Swamis, and even in the ancient Hellenic tradition, you had those that choose the life of Asceticism. Most pedophiles are found within normal situations - married, might have kids of their own (and, in some cases, those kids won't be harmed, but, they'll target others, whether it's neighbours, friends of their kids, etc).


It survived having 2 anitpopes at one go, centuries of crusading and schizm not to mention reformation... or the fall of the roman empire.



IMO yes it should survive. Religion isnt 'an old means of social control' its a modern means of social control. Older forms of religion like roman catholicism are intertwined with cultures and serve a cultural function. It allows people to cope with great losses individual and communal, it sacralises the landscape people inhabit, it provides a forum for ethical debate in the culture at a time when all ethics take a back seat to personal gain... That cultural function its why christianity is so diverse in different parts of the world despite being monotheist and heavily codified . [edit: removing roman catholicism from those cultures is like boning a fish, it may someday be replaced by an indigenous religious belief, but it cant just be surgically removed.]


Im not up on world history but I would guess that either some deliberate reform took place throughout europe in the 19th century or it took place just in Ireland cos the social status of religion changed with economic and political cirumstances in the country. [edit: That change put the church in a position of unqestionable authority and it allowed for bad things to happen. Personally I find the magdalene laundries far more offensive given our countries traditional distain for the concept of illigitimacy]

Theres a good book called priests and people in pre famine Ireland 1780 - 1845 by a lecturer here in maynooth that illustrates the change in the church if anyones interested



Popes die but they cant resign because they are appointed by god. From hence comes the hellish concept of papal infallability and the reason that letter from Ratz is so carefully worded.

QFT.

[Cassie]

And so it goes on...


Pope Benedict XVI has been accused of failing to act on complaints from two archbishops in the US about a priest who allegedly abused 200 deaf boys.
As a cardinal heading the Vatican office that dealt with sex abuse cases, the future pontiff allegedly failed to respond to letters about the case

The Holy See has been haunted for months by allegations that the Church sought to cover up child abuse by Catholic priests in Europe, including Ireland, Austria, the Netherlands, Spain and Switzerland, as well as the pope's native Germany.

For more than 20 years before he was made Pope, Joseph Ratzinger led the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith - the Vatican office with responsibility, among other issues, for the Church's response to child abuse cases.
Documents suggest that in 1996, the then Cardinal Ratzinger twice failed to respond to letters sent to him personally, reported the New York Times, which broke the story.
From Here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8587082.stm)

I have a feeling that all these recent sex scandals in the Catholic Church are not going to be swept under the carpet as easily as they have been before.

[ShadowcatX]

Everyone deserves a defense in court.