Wicca, Neopaganism and The Mysteries

[KenazFilan]

[from http://kenazfilan.blogspot.com (http://kenazfilan.blogspot.com/)]


One of the members of Witch Essentials (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Witch_Essentials/) was commenting about a youth who showed up on another list demanding "The Mysteries." He was informed that The Mysteries must be experienced: they can only be transmitted through ritual, not through a mailing list. Unfortunately, our Adept-to-Be took this rather poorly: how dare those fascists withhold The Mysteries from him?!?! The fact that he was unsure of what The Mysteries entailed and unable to tell the other listmembers exactly which of The Mysteries he wanted didn't phase him. He was sure that there were Mysteries out there and by God-and-Goddess, somebody was going to give them to him or he was going to stomp his feet and hold his breath until he turned blue.

It struck me that this went to the heart of a long-standing debate in the Pagan community: the value of initiation. In the mists of pre-Christian Europe (OK, in the mid-20th century when Gerald Gardner first started dancing naked in the woods with Mrs. Clutterbuck and company), Wicca was exclusively an initiatory tradition. There were no books on the subject: the only way to learn about the Craft was to find a teacher and become initiated into a coven.

Gardner peeked his head above the hedge a bit, releasing books like Witchcraft Today (http://www.amazon.com/Witchcraft-Today-Gerald-Gardner/dp/0806525932?ie=UTF8&tag=kenfil-20&link_code=btl&camp=213689&creative=392969) and The Meaning of Witchcraft (http://www.amazon.com/Meaning-Witchcraft-Gerald-Gardner/dp/1578633095?ie=UTF8&tag=kenfil-20&link_code=btl&camp=213689&creative=392969). Later other authors would raise Aradia's veil even further. Paul Huson's 1970 Mastering Witchcraft (http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Witchcraft-Practical-Witches-Warlocks/dp/0595420060?ie=UTF8&tag=kenfil-20&link_code=btl&camp=213689&creative=392969) presented a non-Gardnerian version of the Craft, while on Halloween of that same year over 1,000 people came to New York's Central Park for a "Witch-In" presided over by Strega priest and gay rights activist Leo Louis Martello (http://www.controverscial.com/Dr.%20Leo%20Louis%20Martello.htm). But the few books which were available were hard to find: typically one had to go to an "occult shop" or rely on mail order. And even if you could find those precious tomes, they would still tell you that you needed to find a High Priestess and train at her feet.

Then in 1988 Scott Cunningham released Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner (http://www.amazon.com/Wicca-Solitary-Practitioner-Authors-Shadows/dp/0875421180?ie=UTF8&tag=kenfil-20&link_code=btl&camp=213689&creative=392969). Cunningham knew that many people were unable to find a nearby coven and presented them with information which would allow them to honor the God and Goddess on their own. Cunningham did not present his material as a replacement for initiation: he was quite clear that the best way to learn Wicca was from an elder and the best way to practice was within a coven. But the die was cast and the occult explosion of the 1970s became the mass-marketed witchcraft of the 1990s - a trend which only continued as the Internet allowed people from around the world to communicate and form magical orders, working groups, and online covens.

Cunningham gave the world books which they could use if they could not find an elder. This new generation wasn't so sure they needed elders at all. British Traditional Witchcraft had formed in England where the state-sponsored Anglican church retained many of the traditions of Catholicism, including apostolic succession. These new movements were largely centered in America, the land of the Puritans and other Protestant sects that favored a direct personal relationship with the Divine. Within the Wiccan mystery tradition there were no congregants, only clergy: this new Neopaganism followed that model, but it insisted that anyone could be a Priest/ess of the God and Goddess without all those pesky hierarchies and ordinations.

Once magical books and supplies could be had only at a few select stores. Now anyone with a web browser could purchase their grimoires and tomes on Amazon and their athames and chalices on eBay. Thanks to free websites like Geocities and Angelfire, Books of Shadows and Guides to Wiccan Practice were now available within a few clicks. Once you could only join a coven after a year and a day as a dedicant (assuming you could find a coven that was accepting members, that is). Now many forums and mailing lists offered membership and the Secrets of the Craft to anyone who cared to join.

But in this transition from a mystery religion to a mass movement the initiatory ceremonies disappeared, replaced by "self-dedication" and "self-initiation." The knife carved its own handle: the Priest/ess established the connection to the Gods and let them do the work. This neglected the historical accounts of shamans who actually were "trained by the spirits" -- generally the process was far more terrifying, arduous and dangerous than any initiatory ritual.

I think that many people within Neopaganism are starting to feel the loss of the initiatory model and the mystery tradition. Solitary practice can certainly be meaningful, but it is no substitute for being part of a community: the Internet cannot replace the power of face to face teaching and group ritual. The young folks are crying out for the Mysteries, even if they aren't sure what they are or how they can attain them. And I think the next generation of magical spirituality -- Neopaganism 2010 and beyond -- will move away from the freeform eclecticism which has been such a hallmark of late 20th and early 21st century American Neopaganism and back toward a more traditional, more hierarchical and more exclusive model.

I don't think the free-form be-your-own-High-Priestess model isn't going to go away any time soon (although John Michael Greer (http://www.thearchdruidreport.com/) has suggested that within a few years Gardnerian-inspired Paganism may look as quaint and outdated as Theosophy, Spiritualism and Nehru jackets). But I think that there are going to be a growing number of Neopagans who want Something More, who want a spirituality which challenges them, one which declares that the Mysteries only reveal themselves to those who are willing to earn them.

(Apologies to those folks from non-Gardnerian traditions who feel slighted by my glossing over a topic which could easily rate several books. I have concentrated on that which I know slightly and avoided that which I don't know at all).

[David19]

I think that many people within Neopaganism are starting to feel the loss of the initiatory model and the mystery tradition. Solitary practice can certainly be meaningful, but it is no substitute for being part of a community: the Internet cannot replace the power of face to face teaching and group ritual. The young folks are crying out for the Mysteries, even if they aren't sure what they are or how they can attain them. And I think the next generation of magical spirituality -- Neopaganism 2010 and beyond -- will move away from the freeform eclecticism which has been such a hallmark of late 20th and early 21st century American Neopaganism and back toward a more traditional, more hierarchical and more exclusive model.

I'm one of those same young people, even though, I guess you could say I'm eclectic in my spiritual tastes (not in the "chuck some Native American dancing, throw some watered down Buddhist meditation, while waving incense about, declaring myself a Shaman"), I want to experience what people call the Mysteries, I want those experiences, and I think I do need a teacher (I'm actually hoping to find a Kabbalah teacher, and I know there are some classes here, which I may go too, I also want to start going to a Buddhist center, just 'cause I can't proceed on my own).

Anyway, good post, lots of good things to think about :) :thumbsup:.


I don't think the free-form be-your-own-High-Priestess model isn't going to go away any time soon (although John Michael Greer (http://www.thearchdruidreport.com/) has suggested that within a few years Gardnerian-inspired Paganism may look as quaint and outdated as Theosophy, Spiritualism and Nehru jackets). But I think that there are going to be a growing number of Neopagans who want Something More, who want a spirituality which challenges them, one which declares that the Mysteries only reveal themselves to those who are willing to earn them.

I'm not sure if you know, but, that John Michael Greer link appears to be broken, it just goes to a bunch of ads for energy.

[KenazFilan]

I'm not sure if you know, but, that John Michael Greer link appears to be broken, it just goes to a bunch of ads for energy.

I fixed the broken link to JMG's blog (http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com) on my blog, but that was after I had posted this. Thanks for letting me know!

[Aominay]

Solitary practice can certainly be meaningful, but it is no substitute for being part of a community: the Internet cannot replace the power of face to face teaching and group ritual. The young folks are crying out for the Mysteries, even if they aren't sure what they are or how they can attain them. And I think the next generation of magical spirituality -- Neopaganism 2010 and beyond -- will move away from the freeform eclecticism which has been such a hallmark of late 20th and early 21st century American Neopaganism and back toward a more traditional, more hierarchical and more exclusive model.

I don't think the free-form be-your-own-High-Priestess model isn't going to go away any time soon (although John Michael Greer has suggested that within a few years Gardnerian-inspired Paganism may look as quaint and outdated as Theosophy, Spiritualism and Nehru jackets). But I think that there are going to be a growing number of Neopagans who want Something More, who want a spirituality which challenges them, one which declares that the Mysteries only reveal themselves to those who are willing to earn them.

This may be true of some, but it really comes down to the individual and how an individual connects to the Divine. Some people find they have a more authentic experience within a group of like minded people, others have a more authentic experience when practicing independently. To say one is somehow more meaningful and carries more depth than the other comes off as a bit, well, condescending, though I get the feeling that wasn't necessarily your intent.

The Pagan and Wiccan community is large and varied, there are LOTS of us out there. We can be a part of that community, we can forge lasting friendships, and we can learn from one another, whether or not we practice within a group environment.

As far as a spiritual challenge goes, it's really quite subjective to the particular individual. If someone is looking for a challenge, s/he will challenge her/himself with or without a group. In my experience, there are quite a few people out there who are challenged by simply walking their own talk, much less doing some serious study.

This is a personal path, it is a path of self exploration, and of becoming aware of and embracing our individual connection to the Divine. If a person finds more depth and meaning within a group, then that is where that person should be. The same goes for solitary practice. Either way, there's not a human being out there who can reveal 'the Mysteries' to you, you have to do it for yourself. Like the Charge of the Goddess says, if you can not find it within, you will not find it without.

Blessings,
Heather

[KenazFilan]

This is a personal path, it is a path of self exploration, and of becoming aware of and embracing our individual connection to the Divine. If a person finds more depth and meaning within a group, then that is where that person should be. The same goes for solitary practice. Either way, there's not a human being out there who can reveal 'the Mysteries' to you, you have to do it for yourself. Like the Charge of the Goddess says, if you can not find it within, you will not find it without.

Blessings,
Heather

Heather: the idea that "no one can reveal 'the Mysteries' to you" is a comparatively modern one. Most traditional religions place a great deal of emphasis on learning from a teacher. A Yoruba proverb declares that "the knife cannot carve its own handle" -- in other words, the initiate must be assisted on the path. Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism both declare that one cannot become a guru without first receiving initiation and training from a guru. People traveled from all over the classical world to undergo the Rites of Eleusis and become initiates of the Eleusinian Mysteries.

There is definitely precedent for people being "initiated by the spirits" and reaching a new state of being through spirit teachers: powerful life-changing events can also serve as initiations. I've heard recovering addicts describe their struggles as a rebirth experience - hell, MY recovery from alcoholism and mental illness was a rebirth. I've also heard people who had survived cancer, sexual assault or other traumas talk about how they had been reborn upon rebuilding themselves. But by and large these "solo initiations" were far more painful and traumatic than ceremonial ones. (I suspect the initiation ceremonies came about because the attrition rate for "spirit-taught" shamans was so high).

If you mean that the initiate must be an active participant in the initiation and that s/he must be prepared to accept the Mysteries, I would agree 100%. But I wouldn't underestimate the life-changing power of an initiatory ceremony for those who are ready to receive the initiation.

[Dio]

Heather: the idea that "no one can reveal 'the Mysteries' to you" is a comparatively modern one. Most traditional religions place a great deal of emphasis on learning from a teacher. A Yoruba proverb declares that "the knife cannot carve its own handle" -- in other words, the initiate must be assisted on the path. Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism both declare that one cannot become a guru without first receiving initiation and training from a guru. People traveled from all over the classical world to undergo the Rites of Eleusis and become initiates of the Eleusinian Mysteries.

There is definitely precedent for people being "initiated by the spirits" and reaching a new state of being through spirit teachers: powerful life-changing events can also serve as initiations. I've heard recovering addicts describe their struggles as a rebirth experience - hell, MY recovery from alcoholism and mental illness was a rebirth. I've also heard people who had survived cancer, sexual assault or other traumas talk about how they had been reborn upon rebuilding themselves. But by and large these "solo initiations" were far more painful and traumatic than ceremonial ones. (I suspect the initiation ceremonies came about because the attrition rate for "spirit-taught" shamans was so high).

If you mean that the initiate must be an active participant in the initiation and that s/he must be prepared to accept the Mysteries, I would agree 100%. But I wouldn't underestimate the life-changing power of an initiatory ceremony for those who are ready to receive the initiation.
It's early....:)

Having had a traditional initiation myself, within a traditional coven, I actually agree with the "no one can reveal the mysteries to you" concept. My opinion on traditional initiation may bother some, but my belief is that the rite itself is not the end-all "this is it" moment. The mysteries continue to reveal themselves to you as time goes by if you're diligent in learning and listening for them. No priest or priestess can do that for you, whether it be coven, tradition, or none at all.

That being said, a traditional initiatory rite does give you a push along your path whether you are on your own or still within a practicing spiritual group. I've actually always thought that one must already be walking the path and the initiatory rite is merely a recognition of that. Whether a spiritual group acknowledges it, or just the gods or spirits, it's really up to the individual initiate to decipher what they are to be learning on their path.

Not everyone can find a teacher. Sometimes teachers are taken away, and none are replaced. Yet the initiate and the initiatory path remains. It would *have* to, otherwise the initiatory rite means nothing at all.

[KenazFilan]

It's early....:)

Having had a traditional initiation myself, within a traditional coven, I actually agree with the "no one can reveal the mysteries to you" concept. My opinion on traditional initiation may bother some, but my belief is that the rite itself is not the end-all "this is it" moment. The mysteries continue to reveal themselves to you as time goes by if you're diligent in learning and listening for them. No priest or priestess can do that for you, whether it be coven, tradition, or none at all.

That being said, a traditional initiatory rite does give you a push along your path whether you are on your own or still within a practicing spiritual group. I've actually always thought that one must already be walking the path and the initiatory rite is merely a recognition of that. Whether a spiritual group acknowledges it, or just the gods or spirits, it's really up to the individual initiate to decipher what they are to be learning on their path.

Not everyone can find a teacher. Sometimes teachers are taken away, and none are replaced. Yet the initiate and the initiatory path remains. It would *have* to, otherwise the initiatory rite means nothing at all.

Dio: absolutely. A worthwhile initiatory group can also save you from reinventing the wheel and from wasting time wandering on unproductive paths. Having a structure within which to weigh and measure your visions and intuitions may stifle them -- but it may also stop you from mistaking wish-fulfillment and fantasy for genuine contact with Deity. It can give you relatively quick access to techniques and shortcuts you might never have figured out on your own.

Much as I hate to put it this way, there's also a bit of the "McDonald's effect" with established groups. McD's became a worldwide phenomenon because around the country and later around the world you knew exactly what you were getting when you ordered their Big Mac or their Cheeseburger and Fries. In a similar vein, you have a fair idea of what a recognized Gardnerian coven or Feri group has to offer: you know that the HP and HPS have a certain amount of experience and that their rituals don't diverge too widely from those practiced by other Gardnerians or Feris. You know that the leader isn't preaching a heady blend of Silver Ravenwolf and J.K. Rowling with a sprinkling of Just F****g Nuts on top.

[Vampiel]

Heather: the idea that "no one can reveal 'the Mysteries' to you" is a comparatively modern one. Most traditional religions place a great deal of emphasis on learning from a teacher. A Yoruba proverb declares that "the knife cannot carve its own handle" -- in other words, the initiate must be assisted on the path. Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism both declare that one cannot become a guru without first receiving initiation and training from a guru.

Im curious while so much emphasis was placed on learning from a teacher and the view that the initiate must be assisted on the path when the persons who first found the path did it themselves with no assistance from another person with more experience. Mind you I see the value of a teacher, and could understand encouraging one, but to say they must be assisted almost rings of indoctrination.

[KenazFilan]

Im curious while so much emphasis was placed on learning from a teacher and the view that the initiate must be assisted on the path when the persons who first found the path did it themselves with no assistance from another person with more experience. Mind you I see the value of a teacher, and could understand encouraging one, but to say they must be assisted almost rings of indoctrination.

You could go years eating one grain of rice a day until you nearly die from starvation, then spend a few months sitting under a bodhi tree meditating. Or you could just find a Buddhist teacher who would lead you along the path and save you the trouble of reinventing the wheel (or, in this case, the way off the wheel).

If you are of a mathematical bent, I'm sure I could leave you alone in a room for a couple decades with a large quantity of pencils and paper and you might come up with the basics of Newtonian calculus through trial and error. Or you might just take a Calc 101 class and get just as far in a few months.

Also keep in mind that within many (probably most) cultures, there is less emphasis on the individual as an individual and more on the individual as part of the group -- the family, the village, the tribe, the neighborhood, the nation, etc. Why would someone want to go out away from the group and its support to seek out enlightenment solo? Why would they turn their backs on their ancestral faith and their cultural identity (typically tied very closely to their religion) to go find the gods on their own. Either they would be looking for someone else's gods (which would be a betrayal) or they would be trying to find the same gods outside of the practices set down by tradition (which would be hubris at best).

So, yes, a big part of initiation historically WAS indoctrination. But keep in mind that wasn't always seen as a bad thing. Teaching the youths the customs, history and lore of your culture, and reinforcing their place as members of that culture, was seen as a good thing rather than "Brainwashing."

[David19]

I fixed the broken link to JMG's blog (http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com) on my blog, but that was after I had posted this. Thanks for letting me know!

No problem, and, it's working fine now :).


Heather: the idea that "no one can reveal 'the Mysteries' to you" is a comparatively modern one. Most traditional religions place a great deal of emphasis on learning from a teacher. A Yoruba proverb declares that "the knife cannot carve its own handle" -- in other words, the initiate must be assisted on the path. Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism both declare that one cannot become a guru without first receiving initiation and training from a guru. People traveled from all over the classical world to undergo the Rites of Eleusis and become initiates of the Eleusinian Mysteries.

There is definitely precedent for people being "initiated by the spirits" and reaching a new state of being through spirit teachers: powerful life-changing events can also serve as initiations. I've heard recovering addicts describe their struggles as a rebirth experience - hell, MY recovery from alcoholism and mental illness was a rebirth. I've also heard people who had survived cancer, sexual assault or other traumas talk about how they had been reborn upon rebuilding themselves. But by and large these "solo initiations" were far more painful and traumatic than ceremonial ones. (I suspect the initiation ceremonies came about because the attrition rate for "spirit-taught" shamans was so high).

If you mean that the initiate must be an active participant in the initiation and that s/he must be prepared to accept the Mysteries, I would agree 100%. But I wouldn't underestimate the life-changing power of an initiatory ceremony for those who are ready to receive the initiation.

QFT :thumbsup:, speaking of spirit-taught Shamans, Raven Kaldera is also one of those who was solely trained by the spirits and Gods of the Northern Tradition (correct me if I'm wrong?), his experiences are definitely really interesting, and actually quite cool, to understand what it means to be spirit (& God)-taught.

[Vampiel]

You could go years eating one grain of rice a day until you nearly die from starvation, then spend a few months sitting under a bodhi tree meditating. Or you could just find a Buddhist teacher who would lead you along the path and save you the trouble of reinventing the wheel (or, in this case, the way off the wheel).

If you are of a mathematical bent, I'm sure I could leave you alone in a room for a couple decades with a large quantity of pencils and paper and you might come up with the basics of Newtonian calculus through trial and error. Or you might just take a Calc 101 class and get just as far in a few months.

I understand the metaphor you are using but I wouldn't compare religion to mathematics as to they are completely seperate things. Perhaps we view religion differently.

Religion is a personal path of self discovery, mathematics is a search of discovering the working mechanisms of the universe using imperical objectifiable observable evidence. You could argue that religion is a search of discovering the working mechanisms of the universe but it's still a path of self thats not verifiable with emperical evidence. I think we can both at least agree that religion is a very personal belief as opposed to math is more universally held as truth. Such as 1+1 will always = 1 as opposed to religion their will always be disagreements in many different regards.

I think Heather said it best.




This may be true of some, but it really comes down to the individual and how an individual connects to the Divine. Some people find they have a more authentic experience within a group of like minded people, others have a more authentic experience when practicing independently. To say one is somehow more meaningful and carries more depth than the other comes off as a bit, well, condescending, though I get the feeling that wasn't necessarily your intent.
..........
As far as a spiritual challenge goes, it's really quite subjective to the particular individual. If someone is looking for a challenge, s/he will challenge her/himself with or without a group. In my experience, there are quite a few people out there who are challenged by simply walking their own talk, much less doing some serious study.

This is a personal path, it is a path of self exploration, and of becoming aware of and embracing our individual connection to the Divine. If a person finds more depth and meaning within a group, then that is where that person should be. The same goes for solitary practice. Either way, there's not a human being out there who can reveal 'the Mysteries' to you, you have to do it for yourself.

Of course I have my preferences of religion(s) but I also believe that it's a personal truth that one finds in themself. Instead of looking at it as "re-inventing the wheel" I see it as simply finding your own wheel.


Also keep in mind that within many (probably most) cultures, there is less emphasis on the individual as an individual and more on the individual as part of the group -- the family, the village, the tribe, the neighborhood, the nation, etc. Why would someone want to go out away from the group and its support to seek out enlightenment solo? Why would they turn their backs on their ancestral faith and their cultural identity (typically tied very closely to their religion) to go find the gods on their own. Either they would be looking for someone else's gods (which would be a betrayal) or they would be trying to find the same gods outside of the practices set down by tradition (which would be hubris at best).

Speaking to an atheist who's most family is mormon this just seems self evident. Because its a personal path and if I raised a child I would expose them to as many religions as possible and allow them to choose and encrouage them to find what makes the most sense to them even if it currently doesn't exist.



I think that many people within Neopaganism are starting to feel the loss of the initiatory model and the mystery tradition. Solitary practice can certainly be meaningful, but it is no substitute for being part of a community: the Internet cannot replace the power of face to face teaching and group ritual. The young folks are crying out for the Mysteries, even if they aren't sure what they are or how they can attain them.


To be honest you sound a bit condescending toward solitary practioners as if they would never be able to obtain the same amount of this "mysterious knowledge" that only "the elders that were taught by spirits" can provide. Sounds rather..... elitist.

I know there are elitest Pagans who claim to have myserious knowledge thats only obtainable through initiation into their covens which is an attraction to young impressionable minds such as the one you gave in the example.

[KenazFilan]

No problem, and, it's working fine now :).



QFT :thumbsup:, speaking of spirit-taught Shamans, Raven Kaldera is also one of those who was solely trained by the spirits and Gods of the Northern Tradition (correct me if I'm wrong?), his experiences are definitely really interesting, and actually quite cool, to understand what it means to be spirit (& God)-taught.

Raven's apprenticeship involved gender reassignment and a near-death experience. I had a shamanic death/rebirth experience in 1994 that left me homeless and seriously mentally ill on the streets of New York. I don't know anyone who went through an unscripted initiatory experience who found it anything but a harrowing nightmare.

If you are interested in modern Shamanism and Ordeal work, Raven is one of the true masters in the field: his work is absolutely invaluable and some of the best advanced Pagan material out there.

[KenazFilan]

To be honest you sound a bit condescending toward solitary practioners as if they would never be able to obtain the same amount of this "mysterious knowledge" that only "the elders that were taught by spirits" can provide. Sounds rather..... elitist.

I know there are elitest Pagans who claim to have myserious knowledge thats only obtainable through initiation into their covens which is an attraction to young impressionable minds such as the one you gave in the example.

For most of recorded history, there has been a belief that religion had to be learned from the elders. There was a belief that certain mysteries could only be transmitted by someone who already held them. And while there was a belief that the gods would sometimes touch men, this was generally a fate one wanted to avoid -- take a look at the fates of the Old Testament prophets. (Or the fate of Joseph Smith, for that matter).

Is this system subject to abuse? Sure. People try to gain power over others by all sorts of means. Sometimes they claim they have a "get rich quick" scheme. Sometimes they claim to have "secret knowledge." Sometimes they claim to be shooting a movie and might be able to get you a part if only you treat them nicely, nudge nudge wink wink. It is important for anyone who is considering initiating in a mystery tradition to go in with open eyes and a healthy degree of skepticism. That being said, I don't see why we should throw out a system which has for the most part worked well for thousands of years just because it offends modern sensibilities.

I am sorry if you find the idea that some people have access to knowledge while others do not to be "elitist." I am sorry that the world does not shower its gifts equally on people. I wish I had been born with musical talent or the gift for picking up languages quickly. (A trust fund would have been nice too!) I don't have the sense of balance, coordination and physical strength required to make it as an athlete, nor the mathematical knack to gain admission to MIT or CalTech. I have other gifts, sure - but let's face it, there are some professions and talents which will never be open to me thanks to accidents of birth and genetics.

Very few people disagree that only a few people have the innate gifts to become professional athletes or concert pianists: fewer still have the drive to put up with the long hours of practice and training. Yet many are uncomfortable with the idea that similar hurdles exist in spirituality. Only those who are born with the knack and who are willing to put in the work can attain to certain spiritual experiences. Others will likely seek out other less arduous paths. (Just because you'll never make the NBA doesn't mean you can't enjoy playing basketball with your friends or coaching your child's junior high team).

I would never say that initiations are required or that everyone must, or should, join a Mystery religion. (Heck, the model of Mystery religions is that they are intended for a small, closed group which keeps their secrets safe from outsiders). But I will say that there are benefits to initiation which are not available to just anyone and that a proper initiation done on a properly receptive acolyte can be a powerful and life-changing experience for which there is no substitute. This may seem unfair to you, but as I said, the world (spiritual and otherwise) rarely concerns itself with things like fairness.

[Vampiel]

For most of recorded history, there has been a belief that religion had to be learned from the elders. There was a belief that certain mysteries could only be transmitted by someone who already held them. And while there was a belief that the gods would sometimes touch men, this was generally a fate one wanted to avoid -- take a look at the fates of the Old Testament prophets. (Or the fate of Joseph Smith, for that matter).

Is this system subject to abuse? Sure. People try to gain power over others by all sorts of means. Sometimes they claim they have a "get rich quick" scheme. Sometimes they claim to have "secret knowledge." Sometimes they claim to be shooting a movie and might be able to get you a part if only you treat them nicely, nudge nudge wink wink. It is important for anyone who is considering initiating in a mystery tradition to go in with open eyes and a healthy degree of skepticism. That being said, I don't see why we should throw out a system which has for the most part worked well for thousands of years just because it offends modern sensibilities.

I am sorry if you find the idea that some people have access to knowledge while others do not to be "elitist." I am sorry that the world does not shower its gifts equally on people. I wish I had been born with musical talent or the gift for picking up languages quickly. (A trust fund would have been nice too!) I don't have the sense of balance, coordination and physical strength required to make it as an athlete, nor the mathematical knack to gain admission to MIT or CalTech. I have other gifts, sure - but let's face it, there are some professions and talents which will never be open to me thanks to accidents of birth and genetics.

Very few people disagree that only a few people have the innate gifts to become professional athletes or concert pianists: fewer still have the drive to put up with the long hours of practice and training. Yet many are uncomfortable with the idea that similar hurdles exist in spirituality. Only those who are born with the knack and who are willing to put in the work can attain to certain spiritual experiences. Others will likely seek out other less arduous paths. (Just because you'll never make the NBA doesn't mean you can't enjoy playing basketball with your friends or coaching your child's junior high team).

I would never say that initiations are required or that everyone must, or should, join a Mystery religion. (Heck, the model of Mystery religions is that they are intended for a small, closed group which keeps their secrets safe from outsiders). But I will say that there are benefits to initiation which are not available to just anyone and that a proper initiation done on a properly receptive acolyte can be a powerful and life-changing experience for which there is no substitute. This may seem unfair to you, but as I said, the world (spiritual and otherwise) rarely concerns itself with things like fairness.

I just want to make sure im understanding your post correctly. Basically what you are implying is that only a select certian people have the skills required, that were given the gifts by "the world", to become elders to be able to find the knowledge that is "the mystery" and they can only communicate this to you through ritual?

[KenazFilan]

I just want to make sure im understanding your post correctly. Basically what you are implying is that only a select certian people have the skills required, that were given the gifts by "the world", to become elders to be able to find the knowledge that is "the mystery" and they can only communicate this to you through ritual?

I think only a certain number of people are going to have the combination of innate ability, interest and discipline that would (a) lead them to seek out a Coven; (b) follow through on the training provided by that Coven; and (c) carry on with that through the initiation process.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they are "better" in any sense of the word than those who don't have that particular combination of skill and desire. The raw talents required to become a police officer or a Green Beret are different than the raw talents required to become a computer programmer or an accountant.

And yes, I believe that there is certain knowledge which can only be transmitted through ritual and which results in long-lasting changes in the initiate's life. I do not believe that initiation is absolutely necessary to one's spiritual development. But I believe that initiation into a true mystery tradition can be a valuable and life changing ceremony. I believe it can provide an experience which is very difficult, perhaps impossible, to duplicate outside a mystery tradition.

[Dio]

I think only a certain number of people are going to have the combination of innate ability, interest and discipline that would (a) lead them to seek out a Coven; (b) follow through on the training provided by that Coven; and (c) carry on with that through the initiation process.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they are "better" in any sense of the word than those who don't have that particular combination of skill and desire. The raw talents required to become a police officer or a Green Beret are different than the raw talents required to become a computer programmer or an accountant.

And yes, I believe that there is certain knowledge which can only be transmitted through ritual and which results in long-lasting changes in the initiate's life. I do not believe that initiation is absolutely necessary to one's spiritual development. But I believe that initiation into a true mystery tradition can be a valuable and life changing ceremony. I believe it can provide an experience which is very difficult, perhaps impossible, to duplicate outside a mystery tradition.

I hate to say it, but any path to enlightenment, when said to be the "correct and only way" in any manner sounds a bit 'off' to me, and I can totally understand why many claim traditionalists to be elitist.

In light of all that, I have a few (okay, I looked back and it's more of a barrage) more questions because I want to get a little clarity on the point you're making with your quote, specifically the part in bold. To me, what it sounds like you're saying here, is that being an active part of a traditional coven with teachers present is the only way an initiate can learn the true mysteries.

Did you really mean that it is *extremely rare* that the Gods/Spirits will bypass the coven situation for certain individuals who may actually be worthy (oh boy, I dislike that word right now for some reason) of the knowledge and enlightenment? Do traditionalists believe that if someone either chooses, or is placed for any reason, into a solitary path, they should give up on learning the mysteries because they are not meant to have access to them? Does that mean that solitary practitioners will always be less than enlightened because they have not tried hard enough to be a part of a group or community? Or is it just perhaps traditionalists believe that solitary folks are less informed about the particular ways of a tradition and have not been privileged enough to be a part of something like that? Are the mysteries merely tradition specific, and not universal? What's up with all of this?

Personally, I agree that not everyone is cut out to understand the mysteries, but this includes all people, even some of those within traditional covens.

A belief that feels right to me is that spirituality and enlightenment is a matter of individual discernment and a personal, open communication with the Divine. I like to believe that one would need to know how to do this whether they are solo or working within a group. One can't always understand what the Gods/Spirits throw their way, and one can't always have someone there to tell them what it all means....so, in that sense, you're absolutely right about the unfairness of the universe. But isn't it possible that the Gods/Spirits would put an individual in a place where they have to figure the mysteries out for themselves? Or is it really an all or nothing sort of thing? It really comes across as all or nothing, and I don't know if I agree with that.

[KenazFilan]

I hate to say it, but any path to enlightenment, when said to be the "correct and only way" in any manner sounds a bit 'off' to me, and I can totally understand why many claim traditionalists to be elitist.

There's a difference between a Gardnerian priest/ess saying "being initiated into a Gardnerian coven is the correct and only way to practice Gardnerian Wicca" and the same person saying "being initiated into a Gardnerian coven is the correct and only way to honor the God and Goddess." I would agree with the first quote and strongly disagree with the second.


In light of all that, I have a few (okay, I looked back and it's more of a barrage) more questions because I want to get a little clarity on the point you're making with your quote, specifically the part in bold. To me, what it sounds like you're saying here, is that being an active part of a traditional coven with teachers present is the only way an initiate can learn the true mysteries.

The core of a Mystery Tradition are the secrets (mysteries) preserved by its followers and passed down to new members. So the only way a person can learn the true Alexandrian or Gardnerian mysteries, for example, is by becoming an active part of an Alexandrian or Gardnerian coven.

Those mysteries can be very important for one's spiritual development, but I'd never say they were vital. One can advance spiritually along many other paths, including quite a few which were inspired by Alexandrian or Gardnerian work. But the mysteries which are passed down by the coven and in ritual can only be passed down by the coven in ritual.


Did you really mean that it is *extremely rare* that the Gods/Spirits will bypass the coven situation for certain individuals who may actually be worthy (oh boy, I dislike that word right now for some reason) of the knowledge and enlightenment?

In my experience, those who are called to work as clergy in Haitian Vodou will be led to a teacher who will provide them with the proper initiation and training. Those who are called to the Wiccan clergy, I presume, will be led to the right coven. The gods don't like wasting energy: when there's a structure in place which will provide the desired result, they're more likely to rely on that than to bypass it.

There are situations where the current religious structures won't work, or situations where the old structures have fallen apart and the old lines of descent have been broken. In those cases, the spirits will sometimes call someone else to act as leader, prophet, shaman etc. and teach them what they need to know. But this is the exception rather than the norm.


Do traditionalists believe that if someone either chooses, or is placed for any reason, into a solitary path, they should give up on learning the mysteries because they are not meant to have access to them? Does that mean that solitary practitioners will always be less than enlightened because they have not tried hard enough to be a part of a group or community? Or is it just perhaps traditionalists believe that solitary folks are less informed about the particular ways of a tradition and have not been privileged enough to be a part of something like that? Are the mysteries merely tradition specific, and not universal? What's up with all of this?

If solitaries really feel they need access to the Mysteries of a Wiccan Tradition (and mysteries are specific to a trad or a group: access to the mysteries of Gardnerian Wicca doesn't give me access to the mysteries of Tibetan Buddhism), they can seek out a coven. If they don't feel those mysteries are important, they can follow their own path and reap their own rewards from their own spiritual practices. I'm not sure that it has that much to do with "being meant to" do anything so much as "very much wanting to do something and feeling the spiritual rewards will be worth the effort expended."


Personally, I agree that not everyone is cut out to understand the mysteries, but this includes all people, even some of those within traditional covens.

A belief that feels right to me is that spirituality and enlightenment is a matter of individual discernment and a personal, open communication with the Divine. I like to believe that one would need to know how to do this whether they are solo or working within a group. One can't always understand what the Gods/Spirits throw their way, and one can't always have someone there to tell them what it all means....so, in that sense, you're absolutely right about the unfairness of the universe. But isn't it possible that the Gods/Spirits would put an individual in a place where they have to figure the mysteries out for themselves? Or is it really an all or nothing sort of thing? It really comes across as all or nothing, and I don't know if I agree with that.

Obviously it is not "all or nothing." There are many spiritual paths which are not mystery traditions and which may offer value to a seeker. Those paths may be more, not less, beneficial than Wicca or another mystery tradition to that person. But that doesn't mean that there is nothing to be gained from a mystery tradition - it just means that there was nothing to be gained from a mystery tradition for that person.

Mystery traditions are by definition exclusive: they divide those who have been made privy to their secrets and those who have not. So in that sense they ARE elitist. Those secrets are passed down through training and ritual, and are considered to be that which marks the member off as an insider rather than an outsider. So in that sense they ARE indocrinating. (And I should note that membership in a bad mystery tradition - a cult in the pejorative rather than the anthropological sense - can be absolutely devastating to an individual's spiritual development: you may wind up spending years unlearning what you were taught, or worse...).

[Dio]

Thank you for clarifying that for me, Kenaz. I don't have much more to add or ask right now, but I'm learning quite a bit this discussion. :)

[Twinkle]

Love your posts, Kenaz!!!

I've been expressing the same thoughts for quite awhile now.

Very, very, nice!!

[David19]

Raven's apprenticeship involved gender reassignment and a near-death experience. I had a shamanic death/rebirth experience in 1994 that left me homeless and seriously mentally ill on the streets of New York. I don't know anyone who went through an unscripted initiatory experience who found it anything but a harrowing nightmare.

If you are interested in modern Shamanism and Ordeal work, Raven is one of the true masters in the field: his work is absolutely invaluable and some of the best advanced Pagan material out there.

Thanks for the info about both your and Raven's experiences, Raven's books are definitely on my list to get, and I really love his articles on Cauldron Farm (http://www.cauldronfarm.com/), I've actually seen 'Pagan Astrology' in one bookstore over here, and it does look very good (OT, I've also seen all of your books in various bookstores round here, which I was impressed by, and they all seem really good).