If Paganism was THE state religion, would you be arrested?

[Laisrean]

Similar to the other thread, except the question is if a Pagan theocracy rose to power and forced everyone to join would you be arrested? :thumbsup:

[patch]

To answer this we first need to know what kind of pagan?
As it is an umbrella term, two paths can be polar opposites, but still qualify as pagan.

[Twinkle]

If you forced me to practice magick and say I was "earth based", I probably wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut and would most likely be arrested.:toofless:

[Libris]

I would fight against any state mandated religion, even if it were my own.

[Solya]

I dislike any kind of 'forced' religion, so I would most likely be arrested because I was defending the rights of non-Pagans. :hahugh: Also, I think Paganism in itself is way too much of an "umbrella term" in order to be able to form a coherent theocracy.

[Phoenix Blue]

Yup. I wouldn't want to live under a theocracy of any kind.

[sari0009]

Similar to the other thread, except the question is if a Pagan theocracy rose to power and forced everyone to join would you be arrested? :thumbsup:

Yes.

Besides the fact that Paganism is a broad term upon which no consensus definition has been reached, Pagans often are quite eclectic/explorative, reading from a variety of sources including monotheism, atheism and nontheisms. Additionally, the vast majority of today's Pagan paths/religions do not prohibit delving into or being involved in a variety of religions, hence, it's not uncommon for a Pagan to belong to not one but several religions. For example, I'm an eclectic Non-Monist Panentheist Pantheist Polytheist Wiccan-Druid-Hindu-Buddhist and I view robust egalitarian pluralism (http://sari0009.xanga.com/603410074/imagination-and-virtues-of-equality/), something integrally at odds with theocracy, central to my path.

The best state religion is one that isn't.

[sidhe]

How the hell could "paganism" be the state religion? That's like saying "Abrahamic" or "Dharmic" is the state religion...

Anyway, I'm willing to bet I'd still be arrested for being the wrong kind of pagan.

Or for deciding to fight the powers that be.

One or the other. :D

[Nox_Mortus]

yes, blowing up government buildings in protest of theocratic government tends to get you shot or arrested no matter which religion is charge.

[brymble]

Same answer as before, I have children to think of. Only in this instance, instead of going into hiding, I would work for change from the inside.

Otherwise, I would probably become a liberal Catholic, so that I could continue to piss off both my family and the mainstream at the same time. :p

[Erebos]

If we're talking state religion in the ancient polytheistic sense, all it really required was participating in public sacrifices and festivals. What you really believed and who you worshiped at home was your own business, so honoring the gods of the state on the festival days wasn't really a big inconvenience or infringement on those who believed in other things.

For example, the reason Rome had issues with early Christianity wasn't because it was a different religion (as Rome was quite tolerant of foreign cults), it was because the Christians were rather obnoxious about not participating in what they perceived to be idolatry and demon worship. The Romans respected Judaism because it was ancient, but Christianity seemed like this new fad that silly women and other gullible people were joining, so they didn't appreciate it when these people refused to honor the state gods, threatening Rome's future military success and sovereignty. It is pretty rude, if you think about it, to disrespect the gods of the nation they were living in because they would rather be martyrs, when they could have just poured libations during a public festival and gone to home to do whatever they wanted.

[Caitlin.ann]

My answer is the same..I would lie low and do whats best for me and mine.

[Laisrean]

yes, blowing up government buildings in protest of theocratic government

It also makes you a murderer.

[aluokaloo]

probably, but hopefully i'd flee the country before they realized i'm a free-for-all sort of girl

[Twig]

No but I might garner a cabinet post!!!

[David19]

Yup. I wouldn't want to live under a theocracy of any kind.

Definitely agreed, that's the same reason why I wouldn't want to live in ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt, or any ancient culture really, yes, there were some things that were quite cool about them, but, they were all theocracies, religion was a part of everything, the Romans prayed and looked to their Gods for everything, especially in State matters.

Religion should be kept private.

So, yes, I'd definitely be arrested and/or killed if a Pagan religion rose to power, be it Wicca, Hellenismos, Asatru, Religio Romana, whatever, etc.

I'd fight against any religion that become a State power, or imperialistic power, if a Pagan government got into power, and told everyone to worship their Gods and honour the President first (like the Romans did), then, I'd oppose that, just like if a Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist did the same.

[David19]

If we're talking state religion in the ancient polytheistic sense, all it really required was participating in public sacrifices and festivals. What you really believed and who you worshiped at home was your own business, so honoring the gods of the state on the festival days wasn't really a big inconvenience or infringement on those who believed in other things.

For example, the reason Rome had issues with early Christianity wasn't because it was a different religion (as Rome was quite tolerant of foreign cults), it was because the Christians were rather obnoxious about not participating in what they perceived to be idolatry and demon worship. The Romans respected Judaism because it was ancient, but Christianity seemed like this new fad that silly women and other gullible people were joining, so they didn't appreciate it when these people refused to honor the state gods, threatening Rome's future military success and sovereignty. It is pretty rude, if you think about it, to disrespect the gods of the nation they were living in because they would rather be martyrs, when they could have just poured libations during a public festival and gone to home to do whatever they wanted.

That's still a theocracy, IMO, it's a bit rude for the Romans to expect people to bow to their Gods, revere or throw incense at statues at their Emperors, etc. Would you really appreciate you were suddenly expected to worship Jesus in public, or honour past Presidents, despite what they may have done (I mean, seriously, would you honour Bush?)?.

Theocracies are theocracies, no matter what the religion. I'd fight against Christian theocracies, Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and Pagan. If I were in ancient Rome, I'd fight to defend the early Christians.

No doubt I'd be killed (if my bitching about their "honour/shame" culture, and the idea of women being veiled didn't get me killed first!).


It also makes you a murderer.

That depends, though, yes, it's murder, but, what if it's for a good cause, would you consider those Americans who fought the British for Independence evil murderers?.

[WildThing]

I'd probably be arrested for opposing paganism being instated as the only or main religion, of the country, yeah...I'm an activist at heart, discrimination is discrimination whatever the flavor...and I don't much care for oppression whomever does it, either.

So yeah. Rah rah rah, fight fight fight.

Besides, it's always more fun spell-slinger vs spell-slingers, anyway. xD

[Infinite Grey]

Maybe si, maybe no.

I can't really say how I would act until I'm that situation.

In all likelihood I would leave the country.

[Laisrean]

That depends, though, yes, it's murder, but, what if it's for a good cause, would you consider those Americans who fought the British for Independence evil murderers?.

If they had blown up buildings with people in them, then yes. That was what Timothy McVeigh and friends did to the FBI building in OKC. They specifically targeted it because it was a government building just like Nox Mortus said he would do, but there were lots of people inside including a daycare full of children.

Nox Mortus would not only be a murderer for doing that, but he would also severely harm his cause as well because no one likes terrorists. And that would give the pagan theocracy propaganda to use against rebels. By portraying them as murderers of children.

[Nox_Mortus]

If they had blown up buildings with people in them, then yes. That was what Timothy McVeigh and friends did to the FBI building in OKC. They specifically targeted it because it was a government building just like Nox Mortus said he would do, but there were lots of people inside including a daycare full of children.

Nox Mortus would not only be a murderer for doing that, but he would also severely harm his cause as well because no one likes terrorists. And that would give the pagan theocracy propaganda to use against rebels. By portraying them as murderers of children.

well, you see, unlike McVeigh, I would at least make a attempt to go after buildings of particular military significance, not just a random office building, I'd also go at it at night to minimize civilian casualties but like I said in the other thread, when you get to the point of government mandated religion, passive resistance probably isn't going to do you a whole lot of good.

[Erebos]

That's still a theocracy, IMO, it's a bit rude for the Romans to expect people to bow to their Gods, revere or throw incense at statues at their Emperors, etc. Would you really appreciate you were suddenly expected to worship Jesus in public, or honour past Presidents, despite what they may have done (I mean, seriously, would you honour Bush?)?.

Theocracies are theocracies, no matter what the religion. I'd fight against Christian theocracies, Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and Pagan. If I were in ancient Rome, I'd fight to defend the early Christians.

I don't know, I think taking part in public festivals would have had more to do with respecting the the land in which one resides and its native religious and political systems rather than forcing anyone to conform to any religion. It's about community and the well-being of said community rather than the individual.

I don't think things are really that different now. From what I've heard, not celebrating Independence Day in the southern United States is a bad idea, because it's a time when citizens are expected to show their nationalism and loyalty to their country, and if people don't, there is a reaction from the rest of the community.

Honestly, I think nationalism is idiotic, but nationalism and piety were pretty much the same thing in the ancient world, and I'd rather be required to honor gods than moron presidents and an ugly flag. However, respecting the nation in which one resides is a small price to pay for the autonomy and liberty it gives in return. If Christians hadn't been so keen to play martyrs, they probably could have co-existed happily with other Romans.

[Kaliayev]

Almost certainly.

Christian hierarchies, Pagan hierarches....all are equal opportunity targets as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, I notice Laisrean didn't specify the kind of Pagan theocracy he posited. If some group like The Order came to power, I'd be pre-emptively imprisoned for my own good.

[Cassie]

Similar to the other thread, except the question is if a Pagan theocracy rose to power and forced everyone to join would you be arrested? :thumbsup:
Yes.

[Laisrean]

well, you see, unlike McVeigh, I would at least make a attempt to go after buildings of particular military significance, not just a random office building, I'd also go at it at night to minimize civilian casualties but like I said in the other thread, when you get to the point of government mandated religion, passive resistance probably isn't going to do you a whole lot of good.

Any building of significance will always have some people in it. Otherwise, the building isn't worth anything and you might as well be blowing up a toll booth.

[David19]

I don't know, I think taking part in public festivals would have had more to do with respecting the the land in which one resides and its native religious and political systems rather than forcing anyone to conform to any religion. It's about community and the well-being of said community rather than the individual.

I don't think things are really that different now. From what I've heard, not celebrating Independence Day in the southern United States is a bad idea, because it's a time when citizens are expected to show their nationalism and loyalty to their country, and if people don't, there is a reaction from the rest of the community.

Honestly, I think nationalism is idiotic, but nationalism and piety were pretty much the same thing in the ancient world, and I'd rather be required to honor gods than moron presidents and an ugly flag. However, respecting the nation in which one resides is a small price to pay for the autonomy and liberty it gives in return. If Christians hadn't been so keen to play martyrs, they probably could have co-existed happily with other Romans.

I think saluting a Flag, or pledging alligience to the President is also pretty dumb, people should only pledge alligience to something they themselves want too, if an American wants to salute the Flag, they should, but, kids in schools shouldn't have too (correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but, in U.S. schools, don't kids have to pledge alliegience to the Flag and the U.S. every morning or something?), the same thing applies to ancient Rome, why should Christians (or Jews) be required to worship the Gods of Rome, or honour them in any way, if they didn't want too?, I mean, in India, Jews, and Christians, have lived alongside Hindus for thousands of years, in peace (although now, there seems to be some tension), and India has never required either group to honour the Hindu Gods, if I'm remembering correctly, I don't think the Jews in Egypt had to honour the Gods of the Egyptians either, it seems something peculiar to Rome.

I think it's a bit superstitious to believe if the Gods aren't honoured, somehow it'll be a disaster, it just seems to me to be imperialistic propaganda, like Rome wanted to make sure everyone was loyal to their Empire.

If someone told me, I had to honour Jesus for "the good of the community", I wouldn't (and I'd love to see what my Mum's reaction would be too!).


Almost certainly.

Christian hierarchies, Pagan hierarches....all are equal opportunity targets as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, I notice Laisrean didn't specify the kind of Pagan theocracy he posited. If some group like The Order came to power, I'd be pre-emptively imprisoned for my own good.

QFT, BTW, sorry if this is a dumb question, but, who are The Order? _inabox_.

[Newbieoffractals]

Depends, is it my sort of paganism? If so, probably not. I might allow other people to practice their faith and not report on them, defend the idea as needed, but I certainly wouldn't change religions. Also, many places have a state religion, but allow other religions(UK comes to mind.).

[Æon Flux]

If they managed to get their hands on me before I left the country, yes.

I am way to opinionated, and while I am disgustingly law abiding (when it's laws that I agree with) I wouldn't be able to keep my gob shut. So my solution would be to go back to Sweden and cozy down with all those Atheists and Agnostics in my family.

That or I'd start a revolution. It's about a 50/50 chance.

[WildThing]

I think they meant "The Order of the Golden Dawn", David. =o

[Wandering Bear]

I would fight against any state mandated religion, even if it were my own.

These are my thoughts, exactly.

[Erebos]

I think it's a bit superstitious to believe if the Gods aren't honoured, somehow it'll be a disaster, it just seems to me to be imperialistic propaganda, like Rome wanted to make sure everyone was loyal to their Empire.

It is superstitious and Rome certainly did do its share of imperial propaganda, although those were more the realms of the emperor cults. When it comes down to it, religion is inherently about community. According to Durkeim, religion serves to unite a society as a community based on shared ideas of sacred and profane. Religion is communal and unites a culture, and the state facilitates that. It shouldn't just be something a person does at home in private, at least, that's what I believe. I think it was Mauss who distinguished "religion" as what what public and communal, and "magic" as what was private, individual, and not part of organized cult, though they were the same in essence. I think in Western culture we are so cut off from the idea of a communal culture and shared religious identity, so we're conditioned to be suspicious of it. I think it serves a function, though.

Oh, and as a side note, once Rome converted to Christianity and abandoned the state gods who they believed had ensured their victory and sovereignty for hundreds of years, the empire crashed and burned. Maybe it wasn't so superstitious :lol:

[TheWomanMonster]

I don't do anything I'm told to do.
Why would I start here?

:cutie:

[Nox_Mortus]

Any building of significance will always have some people in it. Otherwise, the building isn't worth anything and you might as well be blowing up a toll booth.

sure, but that would be within the acceptable number of casualties, we're talking about a war here after all.

[David19]

I think they meant "The Order of the Golden Dawn", David. =o

Thanks :).

[David19]

It is superstitious and Rome certainly did do its share of imperial propaganda, although those were more the realms of the emperor cults. When it comes down to it, religion is inherently about community. According to Durkeim, religion serves to unite a society as a community based on shared ideas of sacred and profane. Religion is communal and unites a culture, and the state facilitates that. It shouldn't just be something a person does at home in private, at least, that's what I believe. I think it was Mauss who distinguished "religion" as what what public and communal, and "magic" as what was private, individual, and not part of organized cult, though they were the same in essence. I think in Western culture we are so cut off from the idea of a communal culture and shared religious identity, so we're conditioned to be suspicious of it. I think it serves a function, though.

I guess I just have a different view, maybe it's just me, but, I think a religion or any Philosophy (including Atheism) should be kept private, it shouldn't really be enforced on everyone.

There might be exceptions to that, like with Christmas, but, while it's a Christian Festival, it's also a Secular one too.

I guess, I wouldn't last long in either Rome or pretty much any ancient culture, a Christian theocracy or an Islamic nation!.


Oh, and as a side note, once Rome converted to Christianity and abandoned the state gods who they believed had ensured their victory and sovereignty for hundreds of years, the empire crashed and burned. Maybe it wasn't so superstitious :lol:

Or, was it 'cause their Empire just ran out of steam?, it had lasted a long time by the time of Christianity, it was just it's time, just like the end of the British Empire.

[Laisrean]

sure, but that would be within the acceptable number of casualties, we're talking about a war here after all.

IIRC, that was how McVeigh looked at it too.

[Circe3]

I've yet to know a pagan who would even try to convert someone from another religion let alone force them but let's twilight zone it for a moment and pretend. First, I am pagan so I don't see why I would be arrested. Second, I would be seriously annoyed and dissapointed as I'm very into freedom of religion.