Build a Wiccan Altar? Not in My Shop Class, Teacher Says

[Avariella]

link (http://www.parentdish.com/2010/03/03/build-a-wiccan-altar-not-in-my-shop-class-teacher-says/)


An Iowa shop teacher who refused to allow a student to build a Wiccan altar in class has been placed on leave in a flap over religious freedom of expression.

Dale Halferty, who has taught industrial arts at Guthrie Center High School in Guthrie, Iowa, for three years, admits he forbade the student to construct an altar dedicated to the religion as part of a class assignment, The Des Moines Register reports.

Wicca is known as the modern form of witchcraft and typically involves the worship of multiple gods.

A 20-year veteran of the classroom, Halferty asserts that he was well within his rights to prevent the teen from building the structure, which he says poses a threat to the separation of church and state. He previously prevented another student from building a cross in the class.

"... This kid was practicing his religion during class time, and I don't agree," Halferty tells the Register. "I don't want any religious symbols in the shop. We as Christians don't get to have our say during school time, so why should he?"

[winterelf86]

Sounds more like it was about " witchcraft being evil" then "separation of church and state". *eyeroll*

If I'm not mistaken, separation of church and state is more about authority and religion then a student wearing a cross or building an altar in shop class.

[willybilly]

From this article I don't see the kid saying anything only the shop teacher.
Doesn't seperation of church and state just mean you can't practice religion in class?
What's the big deal I mean was the kid planning on praying to the cross or The Wiccan kid gonna dedicate the altar in class?
His shop his rules I guess.

[Nox_Mortus]

seems fair, seeing as he prevented someone from building a cross as well.

[David19]

seems fair, seeing as he prevented someone from building a cross as well.

QFT, on one level, he might seem a bit paranoid, like saying "Witchcraft scares him" (it shouldn't, considering the kid probably reads SRW, or Scott Cunningham, it's like being scared of the Big Bird!), but, if he stopped a Christian kid from building a cross, he is treating all kids equally, isn't that a good thing?.

Interestingly, I think this was posted on The Wild Hunt recently, and they seemed to be going on about how this was "persecution", or something similar, and, if I'm recalling right, they didn't mention anything about the teacher also stopping the Christian kid, it makes me wonder, why The Wild Hunt didn't also defend that kid's art project (unless, as I suspect The Wild Hunt wants one rule for Pagans, one rule for everyone else).

Personally, I'd be ok with the kid building the altar, or any kid using their religious symbols in an art project, as long as they weren't jerks about it (i.e. saying "look at me, I'm a _whatever_").

[Adalai]

I totally get the teacher. It's ridiculous if he's being forced on leave, on the simple grounds of not allowing any student to make any religious symbols in his class.

It's his class. And to keep things safe, I stay away from anything religious as well in my classroom.

If he told the Christian not to make a religious symbol.. then he would be playing favoritism to the Pagan if he let him. Seriously, people need to find bigger things to worry about.

[TheWomanMonster]

If he is sticking to the same rules with everyone I don't see it as being a problem. (Example being the Christian student who wanted to make a cross).

ASIDE: This leads me to wonder, what does an 'altar' really look like? if no one knew what it was I'm sure it could be created without any notice.... not like you have to run around saying "I'm building an altar to practice witchcraft" or anything.

[Kraheera]

I read this quite some time back. AT first, I sided with the shop teacher... and then...

He turned around in the news and said that he was only disallowing the cross so that a heathen COULDN'T build anything in his class. He started going on in the articles about how he couldn't allow such a thing to be built in his class.

[memnoch]

I agree with the teacher, no matter his reasons. The reality is atheists, wiccans, and pagans are fighting to keep religion out of everything, they can suck on it when they are on the losing end of the smackdown.

[Kraheera]

I agree with the teacher, no matter his reasons. The reality is atheists, wiccans, and pagans are fighting to keep religion out of everything, they can suck on it when they are on the losing end of the smackdown.


I still think he was right to be equal across the board... I just find his reasoning distasteful. :(

I definitely don't think he should have been fired... but I do wonder if perhaps that sort of thinking made him a bit prejudicial.

[gatto]

"It scares me. I'm a Christian," Halferty tells the Register. "This witchcraft stuff -- it's terrible for our kids. It takes kids away from what they know, and leads them to a dark and violent life. We spend millions of tax dollars trying to save kids from that."


and that is what makes this crap, he shouldn't be in a classroom if he can't separate his own ideas from what he teaches.

[*~Amora~*]

Seems fair to me.

[Twinkle]

Yep, it's fair.

[Crysiira]

It would be fair, if not for his ignorant reasons behind the "fairness."

On the one hand... it's pretty simple, if you're in shop class, to just make a damn table, then go home to carve a pentacle in it or whatever. You don't need to go around spouting about what you're gonna do with a table. Keep the religion part of it to yourself.

On the other hand, the teacher did make some pretty stupid comments regarding a religion he knows little to nothing about.

[willybilly]

I didn't know about about the predjudice part hew should be fired if he's going to be prejudice.

[Kraheera]

I didn't know about about the predjudice part hew should be fired if he's going to be prejudice.

Not necessarily. Everyone HAS prejudice. Me? I tend to be a little impatient with hispanics after living here in Idaho... mostly because most of them do not put any effort into learning english, or learning how to drive properly. They also have this entitlement attitude going.

But that doesn't mean that I try to kick them all out of the country either.

The teacher didn't allow an altar to be made. He also didnt' allow a cross to be built. So while his reasoning may suck, and I would totally love to see him go through some sort of sensitivity class, he hasn't actually done anything illegal.

[Twinkle]

We cannot dictate people's thoughts. People can have any prejudice, hatred, bias, etc that they want.

What they do have to do is abide by the law - and as long as no law is being broken it just doesn't matter how bigoted or wrong *we* think he is.

[zionwood]

On the one hand, he was being fair in that he wouldn't allow the cross or the Wiccan altar be made. On the other hand, public school students do have some rights regarding religious expression in school and school work (although not every teacher or administrator is aware of this evidently), so i think it would have been better if he had allowed both the cross and the altar.

[Terra Mater]

The student in question reportedly told the teacher that he is, indeed, a practicing witch. Halferty tells the Register he initially permitted the student to build the altar, on the condition that the teen keep any religious materials out of the classroom. However, Halferty says, the boy continued to bring a book about witchcraft to class.



Regardless of the teacher's personal views, he was willing to allow it at first. The kid refused to keep his religion out of school.

[gatto]

Regardless of the teacher's personal views, he was willing to allow it at first. The kid refused to keep his religion out of school.


yes, and the problem here is children do have the right to express their religious opinions in school.

[Kraheera]

Regardless of the teacher's personal views, he was willing to allow it at first. The kid refused to keep his religion out of school.


Yes, and children are ALLOWED to bring their religious books to school. You don't see most teachers complaining if you bring a bible into school, or a torah. I raised some eyebrows bringing a Quran once, but they didn't say anything about that either.

If you allow one religiously themed book into the building, all the others must be allowed as well.

[Crysiira]

If you allow one religiously themed book into the building, all the others must be allowed as well.

This I definitely agree with.

In my personal opinion, the separation of church and state is not about keeping religion OUT of schools and stuff, but allowing ALL religions a chance to be heard in these places. Again, that's just my thoughts.

Personally, I'm quiet in general, so I went through most of school without ever saying a word about my religious beliefs. I took what I learned/made in school home and applied it however I wanted to. I know not everyone is like that, though, and wants to express their thoughts/feelings on religion. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as long as it's done in a fair manner.

I don't know all the details in the situation, but if the kid was being extremely showy and pushy about his religion, then it's a little understandable why the teacher would put his foot down. I don't care what religious book you bring to class and read - quietly. If you start pushing that book in my face, I will care. But again, I really don't know what exactly was happening.

[Phoenix Blue]

Yes, and children are ALLOWED to bring their religious books to school. You don't see most teachers complaining if you bring a bible into school, or a torah. I raised some eyebrows bringing a Quran once, but they didn't say anything about that either
Thing is, the kid was there to learn shop, not theology. It's one thing to bring a book to school and another to bring it into a classroom ... especially a shop class, where the only thing it's going to do is get in the way of the tools.

[gatto]

The reason the teacher is in trouble is because even if this kid was being a huge pain in the ass it's ILLEGAL to tell him he can't make an altar. Schools don't work the way of my classroom my rules, there are laws in place.

[Nox_Mortus]

The reason the teacher is in trouble is because even if this kid was being a huge pain in the ass it's ILLEGAL to tell him he can't make an altar. Schools don't work the way of my classroom my rules, there are laws in place.

is it? from a constitutional viewpoint that would be questionable, are there specific laws in that jurisdiction that make it explicitly illegal.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Perhaps I am just to old but this seem's a stupid situation to me. Every school system I have ever been associated with, as a student, parent of students, or employed by the school system, there have always been a set of things one is allowed to build. Occasionally a teacher may allow a student to build something outside the list but that was seldom and far between.

The other thing is that the school does have a say in what can or can not be built. Most school systems provide the material that is used in the shop classes through school funds. I have yet to see one where the student or thier parents go out and buy the material for class usuage.

So from that perspective if he wants to build an altar then let him buy the material at his expense not the tax payers.

But then like I said I am a bit older and come from a time when we did this type stuff in private and through our own abilities.

[Phoenix Blue]

The reason the teacher is in trouble is because even if this kid was being a huge pain in the ass it's ILLEGAL to tell him he can't make an altar.
Nonsense. The kid's using school materials for a school project. The school has every right to set restrictions on what he can or can't do. If he wants to make an altar during after-school time, that's his business.

[gatto]

Nonsense. The kid's using school materials for a school project. The school has every right to set restrictions on what he can or can't do. If he wants to make an altar during after-school time, that's his business.

yes, the school administration, or even the department head, the teacher has no right to say he's scared of witchcraft and therefore the kid can't build an altar. Clearly this teacher was the one causing trouble about this or else this wouldn't be news and he wouldn't be in danger of losing his job.

[Nox_Mortus]

yes, the school administration, or even the department head, the teacher has no right to say he's scared of witchcraft and therefore the kid can't build an altar. Clearly this teacher was the one causing trouble about this or else this wouldn't be news and he wouldn't be in danger of losing his job.

Actually he kind of does, since he actually had a blanket "no religious stuff" rule that he was enforcing, what he said afterward is pretty much irrelevant from a legal perspective, it's in the news because he said that, which was freakiing stupid of him, and because the kid raised a huge fuss about it, the school is doing what they can to prevent being sued, which even if they win would still be a huge drain on resources.

Like I said before, this is questionable, but the courts tend to give schools a lot of latitude on 1st amendment issues.

[Kraheera]

Thing is, the kid was there to learn shop, not theology. It's one thing to bring a book to school and another to bring it into a classroom ... especially a shop class, where the only thing it's going to do is get in the way of the tools.


It doesn't say that he was READING it during shop class. This kid may simply have had it with his other things. We had FOUR minutes between classes in my school. Shop class was WAY at the other end of the building. You did not go to your locker... you hustled from my class to the shop class, and you might have 1 minute left to settle down and get everything ready.

It's entirely possible that the book was just THERE, and that the kid wasn't using it at all during class.

[Zibblsnrt]

Thing is, the kid was there to learn shop, not theology.

How exactly would building the altar in shop class prevent him from learning how to build the altar in shop class?

[Terra Mater]

Yes, and children are ALLOWED to bring their religious books to school. You don't see most teachers complaining if you bring a bible into school, or a torah. I raised some eyebrows bringing a Quran once, but they didn't say anything about that either.

If you allow one religiously themed book into the building, all the others must be allowed as well.

Wrong. If you are commiting the wrong of allowing one religious book into school, then you are not making it right by allowing more students to bring religious books into school.

Amazing how many times people would would say that two wrongs do not make a right will ignore it when it comes to things like this.

[RoseKitten]

Wrong. If you are commiting the wrong of allowing one religious book into school, then you are not making it right by allowing more students to bring religious books into school.

Amazing how many times people would would say that two wrongs do not make a right will ignore it when it comes to things like this.

Since when is it "wrong" to allow kids to bring religious books into school?

[Phoenix Blue]

How exactly would building the altar in shop class prevent him from learning how to build the altar in shop class?
Whether he's making an altar or an ashtray, why would he need to bring a book on Paganism into the classroom?

[RoseKitten]

Whether he's making an altar or an ashtray, why would he need to bring a book on Paganism into the classroom?

I used to carry all of my books together because I rarely had time to stop at my locker during the day. It's not unusual for students to have their school books and personal books together during the day.

[Kraheera]

Wrong. If you are commiting the wrong of allowing one religious book into school, then you are not making it right by allowing more students to bring religious books into school.

Amazing how many times people would would say that two wrongs do not make a right will ignore it when it comes to things like this.


Are you saying that students can't bring their religious tomes with them for when they have no schoolwork?

I used to bring books with me all the time for when I finished my work. Religious toned and otherwise.

The teachers are not allowed to preach, the administration is not allowed to coerce, but students ARE allowed to be religious. That has been ruled on many times.

[zionwood]

Are you saying that students can't bring their religious tomes with them for when they have no schoolwork?

I used to bring books with me all the time for when I finished my work. Religious toned and otherwise.

The teachers are not allowed to preach, the administration is not allowed to coerce, but students ARE allowed to be religious. That has been ruled on many times.

when i was in high school i didn't always have time before school to read my Bible (i like to read it at the beginning of each day) so i'd sit in the classroom before the first period started and read it then.

[memnoch]

This I definitely agree with.

In my personal opinion, the separation of church and state is not about keeping religion OUT of schools and stuff, but allowing ALL religions a chance to be heard in these places. Again, that's just my thoughts.

Personally, I'm quiet in general, so I went through most of school without ever saying a word about my religious beliefs. I took what I learned/made in school home and applied it however I wanted to. I know not everyone is like that, though, and wants to express their thoughts/feelings on religion. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as long as it's done in a fair manner.

I don't know all the details in the situation, but if the kid was being extremely showy and pushy about his religion, then it's a little understandable why the teacher would put his foot down. I don't care what religious book you bring to class and read - quietly. If you start pushing that book in my face, I will care. But again, I really don't know what exactly was happening.

I agree with you 100% that the first amendment is about allowing all religions to be heard. However in the past 50 years atheists, agnostics, and pagans have been fighting to prevent that from happening...now it is backfiring on them. While I am with you in spirit, I am taking some pleasure in seeing their fight against christianity (as it is the dominant religion) backfire like this.

[Toriach]

I agree with you 100% that the first amendment is about allowing all religions to be heard. However in the past 50 years atheists, agnostics, and pagans have been fighting to prevent that from happening...now it is backfiring on them. While I am with you in spirit, I am taking some pleasure in seeing their fight against christianity (as it is the dominant religion) backfire like this.

hmm. So what would you suggest people do? Just shut their mouths and accept being relegated to second class citizenship while Christians act as if their religion is the only valid one in existence?

I can certainly accept that some have gone over board. But sometimes when many Christians seem to have an attitude that they will never consent to allow any religion but their own to be considered valid, what is to be done except adopt the stance of "Okay then nobody gets to have any!"?

[memnoch]

hmm. So what would you suggest people do? Just shut their mouths and accept being relegated to second class citizenship while Christians act as if their religion is the only valid one in existence?

I can certainly accept that some have gone over board. But sometimes when many Christians seem to have an attitude that they will never consent to allow any religion but their own to be considered valid, what is to be done except adopt the stance of "Okay then nobody gets to have any!"?

Oh the poor non christians...wait...that's me. I've lived in areas that are vastly christian...no one ever forced me to go to their church or read a bible. I've seen 10 commandments, even on courthouses, yet I've never been treated differently in the eyes of the law. I've had christian teachers, never was I failed for being different. I served in the army, where some of the preachiest of the preachy serve, and only once did I have an issue, and it was resolved immediately.

Yet here we are, people preaching the christians are evil and should never be allowed to utter their beliefs in public, but the moment your religion is attacked it is a problem...that is the exact reason I find great humor in this happening.

[Toriach]

Oh the poor non christians...wait...that's me. I've lived in areas that are vastly christian...no one ever forced me to go to their church or read a bible. I've seen 10 commandments, even on courthouses, yet I've never been treated differently in the eyes of the law. I've had christian teachers, never was I failed for being different. I served in the army, where some of the preachiest of the preachy serve, and only once did I have an issue, and it was resolved immediately.

Yet here we are, people preaching the christians are evil and should never be allowed to utter their beliefs in public, but the moment your religion is attacked it is a problem...that is the exact reason I find great humor in this happening.

Okay, so that has been your experience. Do you believe that automatically invalidates those who have had a negative experience?

[winterelf86]

Oh the poor non christians...wait...that's me. I've lived in areas that are vastly christian...no one ever forced me to go to their church or read a bible. I've seen 10 commandments, even on courthouses, yet I've never been treated differently in the eyes of the law. I've had christian teachers, never was I failed for being different. I served in the army, where some of the preachiest of the preachy serve, and only once did I have an issue, and it was resolved immediately.

Depends on where you live. Where I live (the Bible Belt) there are quite a few churches here that do all they can to stop the "evil" pagans from running their own shops, practicing their religion in an open area and even stopping pagan campgrounds. Look up what is going on in Livingston Parish, its just a 30 minute drive from where I am.


Yet here we are, people preaching the christians are evil and should never be allowed to utter their beliefs in public, but the moment your religion is attacked it is a problem...that is the exact reason I find great humor in this happening.

.....I wouldn't doubt that there are a few pagans doing this but the majority of pagans I do know are -VERY- tolerant of other religions. Quite of few of my own friends are Christian. They respect my beliefs and I respect theirs, we even have very "intelligent" conversations about religion.

On the other hand, I have lost two "so called Christian" friends due to my beliefs...and not once did I criticize their beliefs but they were quick to criticize mine.

Its the radicals on both sides that create problems but I'm not going to stand by and let a member of another religion tell me what to do and what to believe in and then listen to them whine and complain about Obama no longer declaring that the government should tell people to pray on the National Day of Prayer.

So, your logic goes for both sides.

[memnoch]

Okay, so that has been your experience. Do you believe that automatically invalidates those who have had a negative experience?

No, my point is that when you fight against religion in public then your religion is "banned" you only have yourself to blame.


Depends on where you live. Where I live (the Bible Belt) there are quite a few churches here that do all they can to stop the "evil" pagans from running their own shops, practicing their religion in an open area and even stopping pagan campgrounds. Look up what is going on in Livingston Parish, its just a 30 minute drive from where I am.



.....I wouldn't doubt that there are a few pagans doing this but the majority of pagans I do know are -VERY- tolerant of other religions. Quite of few of my own friends are Christian. They respect my beliefs and I respect theirs, we even have very "intelligent" conversations about religion.

On the other hand, I have lost two "so called Christian" friends due to my beliefs...and not once did I criticize their beliefs but they were quick to criticize mine.

Its the radicals on both sides that create problems but I'm not going to stand by and let a member of another religion tell me what to do and what to believe in and then listen to them whine and complain about Obama no longer declaring that the government should tell people to pray on the National Day of Prayer.

So, your logic goes for both sides.

I agree it goes both sides, and I have lived in the bible belt...you don't get much more conservative christian than Columbus GA...but I got to the point above, when you try to get religion out of public, and then someone does the same to your religion...it is amusing to me...that goes both ways.

[David19]

hmm. So what would you suggest people do? Just shut their mouths and accept being relegated to second class citizenship while Christians act as if their religion is the only valid one in existence?

I can certainly accept that some have gone over board. But sometimes when many Christians seem to have an attitude that they will never consent to allow any religion but their own to be considered valid, what is to be done except adopt the stance of "Okay then nobody gets to have any!"?

How are Pagans (or for that matter, Atheists) "relegated to second class citizenship"?. I think a lot of the Pagan anti-Christian agenda is due to Pagans wanting to feel like victims "it's not the Jews who suffered, we had our own Burning Times" (forgetting most of the people burnt or hung as "witches" were most likely Jews, as well as other Christians (be they Catholic, Protestant, or Christian "heretics")). IMO, most American, or Western Pagans, don't really know much about persecution, try Tibet, certain parts of Africa, certain parts of the Middle East, and then talk about persecution.

It's funny, on a Witchcraft Yahoo Group I'm on, they actually mentioned, it's doubtful any Western Witch faces persecution, if a Witch wants to find persecution, go to India, or Africa, and see how they take to someone declaring themselves a Witch, I think you'll be begging to come home.


Oh the poor non christians...wait...that's me. I've lived in areas that are vastly christian...no one ever forced me to go to their church or read a bible. I've seen 10 commandments, even on courthouses, yet I've never been treated differently in the eyes of the law. I've had christian teachers, never was I failed for being different. I served in the army, where some of the preachiest of the preachy serve, and only once did I have an issue, and it was resolved immediately.

Yet here we are, people preaching the christians are evil and should never be allowed to utter their beliefs in public, but the moment your religion is attacked it is a problem...that is the exact reason I find great humor in this happening.

QFT, and great post :thumbsup:. It's kind of funny, I wonder, how many Pagans would jump to the defence of a Christian teen who was stopped from bringing Christian symbolism in their artwork, probably not many, I'd imagine you'd get snide remarks or even support for the teacher who stopped it. I notice that not many people on The Wild Hunt, as far as I know, didn't defend the right of the Christian teen who the teacher also stopped.

It's that type of hypocrisy that really disgusts me, and makes me ashamed of certain elements in the Pagan community.

[David19]

Its the radicals on both sides that create problems but I'm not going to stand by and let a member of another religion tell me what to do and what to believe in and then listen to them whine and complain about Obama no longer declaring that the government should tell people to pray on the National Day of Prayer.

So, your logic goes for both sides.

I definitely agree it's the radicals on both sides that create the problems, it's just a shame they're so loud that there the only ones you hear most of the time.

[Toriach]

How are Pagans (or for that matter, Atheists) "relegated to second class citizenship"?.

*raises an eyebrow* Where precisely did I specify any particular non Christian group?



I think a lot of the Pagan anti-Christian agenda is due to Pagans wanting to feel like victims

I find it fascinating that some people seem to be incapable of tolerating any minority group seeking to receive fair treatment. Rather than dealing with the question of how to address inequalities that have occurred against non Christians in this country in a way that is effective, without being out of proportion to the situation it seems that some like yourself prefer to simply dismiss out of hand that there might be any validity to the problems that people have had at various times in the history of this country with what is considered by many of its adherents to be it's dominant religion.


IMO, most American, or Western Pagans, don't really know much about persecution, try Tibet, certain parts of Africa, certain parts of the Middle East, and then talk about persecution.

Ah yes. The above is a classic example of what I like to call the "You think you've got it bad?" fallacy. Wherein any problem that a person might bring up, is dismissed because since someone out there does, or might have a worse problem it immediately invalidates the problem under discussion.

It's quite frankly tantamount to holding up a large sign saying, "I have nothing constructive to say about this situation so I'm going to do my best to make the person with the problem shut up and go away by devaluing their experience."


It's funny, on a Witchcraft Yahoo Group I'm on, they actually mentioned, it's doubtful any Western Witch faces persecution, if a Witch wants to find persecution, go to India, or Africa, and see how they take to someone declaring themselves a Witch, I think you'll be begging to come home.

Oh yes it's absolutely huging HI LARIOUS to live in a country where depending on where precisely you live, you might be one of the lucky ones who just get's ignored or perhaps teased good naturedly, or maybe you aren't one of the so lucky ones. So your openness about your beliefs leads your Christian boss to find an excuse to fire you. But since he's smart enough to lie about his reasons you can't prove anything. And even if he does let something slip, fighting it, unless you have means or get lucky and get the ACLU to take time out from defending the rights of convicted serial killers to help you, is highly unlikely.

Or perhaps you get a judge who because of your untraditional beliefs (usually a code word for non Christian) gives full custody to your born again Christian ex.

Or maybe you get really really unlucky and just happen to be a little too open around someone who takes that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" shit really really seriously.

But since other people in other countries have it worse (and FTR I'm not debating that there are places a lot worse than here) anyone who has ever been discriminated against for not being a Christian should just sit down and shut up about it.

And the wimmins should get back in the kitchen and get back to makin' sammiches.

And all those uppity dark skinned types should get to the back of the bus and be grateful they are even allowed to have a water fountain.

Right?

[memnoch]

*raises an eyebrow* Where precisely did I specify any particular non Christian group?




I find it fascinating that some people seem to be incapable of tolerating any minority group seeking to receive fair treatment. Rather than dealing with the question of how to address inequalities that have occurred against non Christians in this country in a way that is effective, without being out of proportion to the situation it seems that some like yourself prefer to simply dismiss out of hand that there might be any validity to the problems that people have had at various times in the history of this country with what is considered by many of its adherents to be it's dominant religion.



Ah yes. The above is a classic example of what I like to call the "You think you've got it bad?" fallacy. Wherein any problem that a person might bring up, is dismissed because since someone out there does, or might have a worse problem it immediately invalidates the problem under discussion.

It's quite frankly tantamount to holding up a large sign saying, "I have nothing constructive to say about this situation so I'm going to do my best to make the person with the problem shut up and go away by devaluing their experience."



Oh yes it's absolutely huging HI LARIOUS to live in a country where depending on where precisely you live, you might be one of the lucky ones who just get's ignored or perhaps teased good naturedly, or maybe you aren't one of the so lucky ones. So your openness about your beliefs leads your Christian boss to find an excuse to fire you. But since he's smart enough to lie about his reasons you can't prove anything. And even if he does let something slip, fighting it, unless you have means or get lucky and get the ACLU to take time out from defending the rights of convicted serial killers to help you, is highly unlikely.

Or perhaps you get a judge who because of your untraditional beliefs (usually a code word for non Christian) gives full custody to your born again Christian ex.

Or maybe you get really really unlucky and just happen to be a little too open around someone who takes that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" shit really really seriously.

But since other people in other countries have it worse (and FTR I'm not debating that there are places a lot worse than here) anyone who has ever been discriminated against for not being a Christian should just sit down and shut up about it.

And the wimmins should get back in the kitchen and get back to makin' sammiches.

And all those uppity dark skinned types should get to the back of the bus and be grateful they are even allowed to have a water fountain.

Right?

I find your views HI LARIOUS. People of all categories have something go bad because of who they are, whether it be race, religion, gender, sexuality, whatever. The point is you cheer when it is someone other than you who is discriminated against. Great, a christian got fired for wearing a cross. Great, a republican got fired for sharing their beliefs. Great someone who is racist got beat up...yet then when it is someone you support you cry victim. That is what makes it so amusing. People with your views have been fighting for decades to keep religion (code for christianity) out of schools, and when that standard is applied to your religion it is discrimination. This hypocrisy is exactly why I laugh at this situation.

With this said, I will address your other points about how discriminated against some random theoretical person may be. I'm sure there are cases where parents are denied custody because of their religion...although I'm sure it happens to christians as well from the judges you support the most. This isn't a case of the government as a whole, or society as a whole, discriminating, this is an individual and should be dealt with as such. Same for the boss. However because there are isolated cases you believe the world is out to get you, this is a victim mentality, if something you deem unfair happens it must be a certain group out to get you. However instead of trying to deal with these individuals on a case by case basis, you go out of your way to be no better than they are, showing the same biases, bigotry, and discrimination against anyone you view as not being like you. In short, instead of trying to be part of the solution, people like yourself are the problem. Attitudes like that are the reason I stopped labeling myself. I was once goth, then realised there were goths so hateful of people different than them they became what they hated. I was once wiccan and once called myself pagan, but I see the same thing. I really think you should do some soul searching and deal with your issues, it really would help take care of your us vs. them mentality and much of your hatred. A psychologist would have a field day with this.

[Kraheera]

I just want equal treatment of all religions when it comes to a public area, like schools, parks, cemeteries, etc.

It has been my misfortune, however, to usually end up on the bad side of such wishes. Let me give an example.

Just recently, in the last two years, we decided to start a group up on base. We had excellent support from the chaplains, btw. After about a year, we got brave, and decided to use the advertising sign (which is perfectly fine. Mass gets advertised for high catholic holidays on that sign).

All it said was "Earth Fellowship on Saturdays. Call this number" that number was the chaplain's office.

Now, MOST people ignored it. The sign was supposed to be up for a month It made it about 2 weeks. There were a LOT of complaints about it.

Is that a 'bad' one? No. But you didn't see Catholics getting harassed for advertising mass. You didn't see protestants getting harassed for advertising prayer meetings or bible classes.

Fair? Hardly.

it is situations like this that make a lot of the 'me vs them' attitudes. Just saying.

[memnoch]

I just want equal treatment of all religions when it comes to a public area, like schools, parks, cemeteries, etc.

It has been my misfortune, however, to usually end up on the bad side of such wishes. Let me give an example.

Just recently, in the last two years, we decided to start a group up on base. We had excellent support from the chaplains, btw. After about a year, we got brave, and decided to use the advertising sign (which is perfectly fine. Mass gets advertised for high catholic holidays on that sign).

All it said was "Earth Fellowship on Saturdays. Call this number" that number was the chaplain's office.

Now, MOST people ignored it. The sign was supposed to be up for a month It made it about 2 weeks. There were a LOT of complaints about it.

Is that a 'bad' one? No. But you didn't see Catholics getting harassed for advertising mass. You didn't see protestants getting harassed for advertising prayer meetings or bible classes.

Fair? Hardly.

it is situations like this that make a lot of the 'me vs them' attitudes. Just saying.

ah, but the difference here is working with others instead of attacking them for believed injustices and becoming the person you hate.

[kagemori1989]

i dont see what the big deal is. Now if it was strictly forbidding one religion from building something then that would be one thing but seeing as he forbid the other kid from making the cross too then he's treating them all equal and to me thats not a problem. as long as its the same for everyone then it doesnt bother me cause he's not going out of his way to pick on one spacific relgion.

[Toriach]

The point is you cheer when it is someone other than you who is discriminated against. Great, a christian got fired for wearing a cross. Great, a republican got fired for sharing their beliefs. Great someone who is racist got beat up...yet then when it is someone you support you cry victim.

Oh I have have I? Wow thanks for letting me in on my secret life. Any chance you've got a few video clips? Newspaper clippings? Hell even links to posts I've made in these forums? I'd love to catch up on what I've been up to. Darn black outs.


That is what makes it so amusing. People with your views have been fighting for decades to keep religion (code for christianity) out of schools, and when that standard is applied to your religion it is discrimination.

hmm. Which view would that be precisely? The one where I agree with the idea that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"? Or is it the one where I have been attempting to find a reasonable balance where no one's religious freedom is impinged? Or could it possibly be the one where I thought that asking a serious question about how a person with a generally different point of view about things from mine might address the question of ensuring fair treatment that was not out of proportion to the situation wasn't a total huging waste of my time?


I'm sure there are cases where parents are denied custody because of their religion...although I'm sure it happens to christians as well from the judges you support the most.

Really? A lot of Buddhist judges out there trodding on the rights of the poor poor Christians? Or maybe it's those Jew bastards. It's as if killing Christ wasn't enough for them. Or I know, it must be that famous case of the openly Wiccan family court judge who claimed that the defendants Christian beliefs weren't a real religion.

By the way, again please do bring me up to speed because due to these blackouts of mine I can't quite recall, which judges is it that I support? I mean you speak so assuredly on the subject that I'm guessing my voting record must be floating around teh intertubes somewhere. I'm just dying to find out more about this secret life of mine.


This isn't a case of the government as a whole, or society as a whole, discriminating, this is an individual and should be dealt with as such. Same for the boss. However because there are isolated cases you believe the world is out to get you, this is a victim mentality, if something you deem unfair happens it must be a certain group out to get you. However instead of trying to deal with these individuals on a case by case basis, you go out of your way to be no better than they are, showing the same biases, bigotry, and discrimination against anyone you view as not being like you. In short, instead of trying to be part of the solution, people like yourself are the problem.

Wow. Tell me more about what I believe. Because you see I was so deluded. Here I thought I was addressing one particular poster and his apparent attitude that anyone who felt discriminated against should just SDASTFU. But apparently because I believe that merely eating a load of crap from bigoted people and smiling and asking for more is the wrong thing to do, that means I believe the "world is out to get me", and that I have a "victim mentality". And silly me I thought a victim mentality was sitting passively by and accepting unfair treatment without saying a word. Boy is my face red.


Attitudes like that are the reason I stopped labeling myself. I was once goth, then realised there were goths so hateful of people different than them they became what they hated. I was once wiccan and once called myself pagan, but I see the same thing. I really think you should do some soul searching and deal with your issues, it really would help take care of your us vs. them mentality and much of your hatred. A psychologist would have a field day with this.

So you'll be dropping that whole "Conservative" label? Or are you okay with how hateful some Conservatives and Republicans are of people different from them.

And frankly I think that maybe some searching of your own soul is in order. I made an honest attempt to reach out looking for some consensus, actively seeking an opinion from someone with a different perspective on things as to how they would address the very real problem of religious discrimination that has happened and does still sometimes happen.

Furthermore I've generally tried to keep my terminology as non specific as possible. In fact the only reason that I was as specific as I was in my reply to david19 was because I was trying to make it clear that I was responding specifically to what I felt was narrow minded bigotry in his post, and that I was not taking a back handed swipe at your earlier response.

And what do I get for my troubles? Belittled, insulted, told what I think and believe by someone who I can assure you doesn't know the first thing about me, and best of all, for daring to ask a question of how someone might suggest approaching the problem in a way that was constructive but not reactionary, get to hear that I'm "part of the problem".

Thank you for reminding me of a timeless truth. My first instincts about people are usually right on the money.

[Terra Mater]

Since when is it "wrong" to allow kids to bring religious books into school?
Some schools actually have rules against bringing religious books to schools and do not carry them in their libraries. Others are more tolerant and don't care unless it becomes a problem.

In this specific case, the teacher was willing to allow the teen to build his altar as long as he did not bring any religious materials into the class, which included books. The teen continued to bring a book about witchcraft into the class.

In this case it was not only wrong to bring the book for the religious implications, but also because the student had agreed to not bring such things and did so anyway.

As has also been pointed out, this was a shop class, not a theology class. The student had no need of bringing the book into the class to build the altar. The required information could have been copied onto a sheet of paper as part of the project blueprints.

[RoseKitten]

Some schools actually have rules against bringing religious books to schools and do not carry them in their libraries. Others are more tolerant and don't care unless it becomes a problem.

In this specific case, the teacher was willing to allow the teen to build his altar as long as he did not bring any religious materials into the class, which included books. The teen continued to bring a book about witchcraft into the class.

In this case it was not only wrong to bring the book for the religious implications, but also because the student had agreed to not bring such things and did so anyway.

As has also been pointed out, this was a shop class, not a theology class. The student had no need of bringing the book into the class to build the altar. The required information could have been copied onto a sheet of paper as part of the project blueprints.


As has also been pointed out, public schools in America do not have the right to ban students from bringing religious texts to school. As has also been pointed out, not all students have time to go to their locker before every class. If the student actually agreed to not bring the book to class, he wouldn't have brought it with him.

[memnoch]

Oh I have have I? Wow thanks for letting me in on my secret life. Any chance you've got a few video clips? Newspaper clippings? Hell even links to posts I've made in these forums? I'd love to catch up on what I've been up to. Darn black outs.

Nevermind how you have said anyone who disagrees with you politically should leave our country, but you would have some of them kill each other http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=229013 ah or your support of what you admit is a publicity stunt because their religion is so inferior to your greatness http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=4172745&postcount=13 although in fairness you do defend christians if they go against anything christian http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3381864&postcount=11 but no, I must be totally wrong about your victim mentality...or maybe not http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=92018

Honestly I was going to give a more thorough response because while going through all of that I was reminded of my self imposed vacation from PP...the reality is that it is pointless to continue arguing, everything will be denied, you will make some pity me or "look how evil people who disagree with me are" threads, and we will be back in the same spot tomorrow. If you are happy constantly posting in a way that makes you appear constantly angry and somewhat sad, who am I to stop it...and the reality is while you ask for opinions from people with a different view you shoot them down...considering you already view David as a bigot I don't expect you to take anything he posts seriously either. So it really has become pointless to continue

[Terra Mater]

As has also been pointed out, public schools in America do not have the right to ban students from bringing religious texts to school. As has also been pointed out, not all students have time to go to their locker before every class. If the student actually agreed to not bring the book to class, he wouldn't have brought it with him.

Then maybe he should have brought a book bag and kept the darned thing in it? He made an agreement and failed to honor it and people want to excuse him breaking his own word. Ba-freakin-loney.

My own kids tried using that excuse for bringing all sorts of things to class that they should not have and I told them the same thing. Either bring a bag and keep those items in the bag so no one knows you have it, or quit yakking between classes.

When I was in high school, I carried a backpack to all my classes. When I got to school, I dumped off all the books I would not need for the first half of the day. At lunch, I traded them out for the books I needed for the second half of the day. No problems getting to class on time, no issues from teachers with what I had in my backpack, and no back problems from carrying all the weight. If anything, by back is all the stronger for it, but then again I went hiking a lot and knew how to properly carry weight on my back.

So I don't buy the old "didn't have time" excuse. People make time for what they consider important and obviously this kid did not think keeping his word in this matter was important. I got no pity at all.

[Kraheera]

My school didn't let you take backpacks into class. Columbine, it screwed us all over.

:S

[RoseKitten]

My school didn't let you take backpacks into class. Columbine, it screwed us all over.

:S

Same here.

Granted, I did get hassled once for bringing a pagan book to read during our imposed reading time that happened twice a week. I politely informed them that I'd be happy to, so long as no religious material was allowed to be read or carried around the school. They let me keep my books.

[Toriach]

Nevermind how you have said anyone who disagrees with you politically should leave our country, but you would have some of them kill each other http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=229013 ah or your support of what you admit is a publicity stunt because their religion is so inferior to your greatness http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=4172745&postcount=13 although in fairness you do defend christians if they go against anything christian http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=3381864&postcount=11 but no, I must be totally wrong about your victim mentality...or maybe not http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=92018

Honestly I was going to give a more thorough response because while going through all of that I was reminded of my self imposed vacation from PP...the reality is that it is pointless to continue arguing, everything will be denied, you will make some pity me or "look how evil people who disagree with me are" threads, and we will be back in the same spot tomorrow. If you are happy constantly posting in a way that makes you appear constantly angry and somewhat sad, who am I to stop it...and the reality is while you ask for opinions from people with a different view you shoot them down...considering you already view David as a bigot I don't expect you to take anything he posts seriously either. So it really has become pointless to continue

I have finally grown weary of reaching out to someone who justifies everything he does as right, even when he is proven wrong. I wish you well Memnoch. I'm not certain what it is within you that tears you up so that you feel the need to direct your pain outward to others, but this will be my last direct reply to anything you post.

In the end what may have been said by another with sarcasm, I say with true grief,
You are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity.

[gatto]

My school didn't let you take backpacks into class. Columbine, it screwed us all over.

:S

same thing happened to my little brother, no backpacks allowed

[~Elise~]

I have finally grown weary of reaching out to someone who justifies everything he does as right, even when he is proven wrong. I wish you well Memnoch. I'm not certain what it is within you that tears you up so that you feel the need to direct your pain outward to others, but this will be my last direct reply to anything you post.

In the end what may have been said by another with sarcasm, I say with true grief,

*sigh* discuss the post, not the poster.

[Toriach]

*sigh* discuss the post, not the poster.

Given the lack of public comment from the powers that be am I to assume that that this comment was deemed acceptable?


I really think you should do some soul searching and deal with your issues, it really would help take care of your us vs. them mentality and much of your hatred. A psychologist would have a field day with this.

[Terra Mater]

Backpacks aren't the only way to hide something as any teen knows.

My statement still stands, people make time for the things they think are important and this kid demonstrated that honoring his agreement wasn't on his priority list.

He said he would bring no other religious materials into that class; so the world would not have ended had he left that book at home for a few days, or stuffed it down the back of his pants, or in a large pocket, or or or or or. For every rebuttal people can give in favor of this I can come up with 20 options he could have taken.

[Kraheera]

Backpacks aren't the only way to hide something as any teen knows.

My statement still stands, people make time for the things they think are important and this kid demonstrated that honoring his agreement wasn't on his priority list.

He said he would bring no other religious materials into that class; so the world would not have ended had he left that book at home for a few days, or stuffed it down the back of his pants, or in a large pocket, or or or or or. For every rebuttal people can give in favor of this I can come up with 20 options he could have taken.


And I am saying he didn't have to. If they aren't allowed to take bags into class, and he doesn't stop by his locker, he has every RIGHT to carry his book with him.

Just because it was THERE does not mean that he was reading it, or not doing his job.

A teacher has no right to tell a student whether they can have a bible/torah/quran/random book with them when they go into class. All they can say is that they can't READ it while working.

[David19]

*raises an eyebrow* Where precisely did I specify any particular non Christian group?




I find it fascinating that some people seem to be incapable of tolerating any minority group seeking to receive fair treatment. Rather than dealing with the question of how to address inequalities that have occurred against non Christians in this country in a way that is effective, without being out of proportion to the situation it seems that some like yourself prefer to simply dismiss out of hand that there might be any validity to the problems that people have had at various times in the history of this country with what is considered by many of its adherents to be it's dominant religion.



Ah yes. The above is a classic example of what I like to call the "You think you've got it bad?" fallacy. Wherein any problem that a person might bring up, is dismissed because since someone out there does, or might have a worse problem it immediately invalidates the problem under discussion.

It's quite frankly tantamount to holding up a large sign saying, "I have nothing constructive to say about this situation so I'm going to do my best to make the person with the problem shut up and go away by devaluing their experience."



Oh yes it's absolutely huging HI LARIOUS to live in a country where depending on where precisely you live, you might be one of the lucky ones who just get's ignored or perhaps teased good naturedly, or maybe you aren't one of the so lucky ones. So your openness about your beliefs leads your Christian boss to find an excuse to fire you. But since he's smart enough to lie about his reasons you can't prove anything. And even if he does let something slip, fighting it, unless you have means or get lucky and get the ACLU to take time out from defending the rights of convicted serial killers to help you, is highly unlikely.

Or perhaps you get a judge who because of your untraditional beliefs (usually a code word for non Christian) gives full custody to your born again Christian ex.

Or maybe you get really really unlucky and just happen to be a little too open around someone who takes that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" shit really really seriously.

But since other people in other countries have it worse (and FTR I'm not debating that there are places a lot worse than here) anyone who has ever been discriminated against for not being a Christian should just sit down and shut up about it.

And the wimmins should get back in the kitchen and get back to makin' sammiches.

And all those uppity dark skinned types should get to the back of the bus and be grateful they are even allowed to have a water fountain.

Right?

Memnoch pretty much addressed your post, but, seriously, if someone gets fired 'cause of their beliefs, there are channels that people can go down (not to mention, it's illegal, as far as I know, for a boss to even ask what you're beliefs are), if a Judge gives custody of your kid(s) to your ex, 'cause of religious reasons, then, appeal, try and get a fairer Judge appointed, and, hopefully, that Judge will do what's in the interest of the kid(s), which may, or may not, be with the Pagan parent.


I just want equal treatment of all religions when it comes to a public area, like schools, parks, cemeteries, etc.

That's what I'd like to see to, unfortunately, some people want to create this "us (Pagans) vs. them (Christians, and/or Islam)" situation.


i dont see what the big deal is. Now if it was strictly forbidding one religion from building something then that would be one thing but seeing as he forbid the other kid from making the cross too then he's treating them all equal and to me thats not a problem. as long as its the same for everyone then it doesnt bother me cause he's not going out of his way to pick on one spacific relgion.

QFT - unfortunately, some Pagans seem to think that 'cause the Wiccan kid couldn't build his altar, it's unfair, but, don't seem to think it's unfair that the Christian kid couldn't include Christian symbolism in their art project. Now, the teacher may be a idiot (he should have just kept his private opions to himself), but, he was being fair, it's just some Pagans don't seem to like it when a decision backfires on them (basically, some people want seperation of Religion and State, unless it's a Pagan religion).

[David19]

Backpacks aren't the only way to hide something as any teen knows.

My statement still stands, people make time for the things they think are important and this kid demonstrated that honoring his agreement wasn't on his priority list.

He said he would bring no other religious materials into that class; so the world would not have ended had he left that book at home for a few days, or stuffed it down the back of his pants, or in a large pocket, or or or or or. For every rebuttal people can give in favor of this I can come up with 20 options he could have taken.

QFT.


And I am saying he didn't have to. If they aren't allowed to take bags into class, and he doesn't stop by his locker, he has every RIGHT to carry his book with him.

Just because it was THERE does not mean that he was reading it, or not doing his job.

A teacher has no right to tell a student whether they can have a bible/torah/quran/random book with them when they go into class. All they can say is that they can't READ it while working.

To be honest, I've no idea why anyone would be bringing a religious book into a classroom, I mean, I never saw anyone in my school bringing a Bible/Koran/Torah/Bhagavad Gita/Buddhist Scripture/or whatever into a classroom.

If they aren't allowed to take bags into a classroom (which is something else I don't understand why), then, there must be a place they can leave their bags, why didn't he just leave it in his bag, and read the book at breaktimes, lunch, etc?.

[Terra Mater]

And I am saying he didn't have to. If they aren't allowed to take bags into class, and he doesn't stop by his locker, he has every RIGHT to carry his book with him.

Just because it was THERE does not mean that he was reading it, or not doing his job.

A teacher has no right to tell a student whether they can have a bible/torah/quran/random book with them when they go into class. All they can say is that they can't READ it while working.

You are saying he did not have to honor a promise he made? Interesting.

[Kraheera]

You are saying he did not have to honor a promise he made? Interesting.

Legally? No. The teacher should not have made him make such a promise in the first place. We don't know WHEN this shop class took place. Did it happen directly after homeroom (which is when I would have been reading such a book). Does his school not allow bags in class rooms?

Like I said, at first I sided with the teacher, because he was fair across the board. I don't think he should be fired, even if his personal opinions do seem rather off to me.

But I do think that the school board should speak to him about keeping his religious opinions quiet when it comes to students. He had no right, in the first place, to ask that child to not bring such a book to class. He should have said that no books NOT PERTAINING TO SCHOOL were to be in his class, and he would have been fine.

[~Elise~]

Given the lack of public comment from the powers that be am I to assume that that this comment was deemed acceptable?

You have been here long enough to know the rules. If you have a problem with an admin mode, you take it to PM. If you have a problem with a post, you report it.

One more...you're outta here on temp vacation.