Liars.

[Danustouch]

What do you do when you discover that an acquaintance of yours is a pathological liar. She lies to everyone, telling each another story, and then tries to cover her tracks, by saying..."Oh..I never said THAT" or..."What I meant was..." or..."Well..that was a while ago..but I changed my mind..." all that junk. They continue to lie, even when you catch them smack dab in the middle of it. Red handed. You confront them with it, and they change the story, or simply refuse to admit it, even though the evidence is all there?

Do you just keep your mouth shut, and slowly drift away from them? Or do you confront them on their lies, and say.."you can't lie to me. I know the truth. You can continue to try, but I see through you. And because I know the truth, I don't want to be friends". Is it a waste of time to confront them, or is it sort of a responsibility to tell them that you know what they are up to, and you think it sucks? Which is better, to slowly let it fade, or to tell them openly WHY you don't want to be friends anymore?

I don't think this individual is capable of seeing her mistakes. I don't think she has the ability to "come clean" and admit that she's lying, or to learn any lesson from it. In other words..if I told her I knew about her lies, and told her that I don't approve of what she's doing, and of her lying to everyone she knows...it's not going to teach her a damned thing. As I said..it seems to be pathological. I think she has some severe mental issues, and psychosis. If I DID tell her that I know about her, it would mainly just be therapy for ME... getting it off my chest, and putting a stamp of finality on it. Letting her know that she's not fleecing me in the slightest.

Is that a waste of time?

[Radocs]

I knew someone like that. I just walked away...

[SagaDraco]

While we all tell white lies, outright liars are to be avoided at all costs. Most also steal and manipulate to boot.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Do you just keep your mouth shut, and slowly drift away from them? Or do you confront them on their lies, and say.."you can't lie to me. I know the truth. You can continue to try, but I see through you. And because I know the truth, I don't want to be friends".

I've tried to confront someone in a strictly non accusatory way on two occasions, as in "I've noticed you seem to ____, am I misinterpreting? Is something wrong?" and had them insist adamantly they didn't know what I was talking about.

When you have proof that there's an issue and the other "friend" won't admit it exists or address it, even when you're being understanding and just trying to correct it (even it's your *own* behaviour you have to correct), what more can you do? Obviously the person doesn't want to solve it, and is more content spreading strife and being miserable.

Personally, after you've tried to address it and gotten nowhere, I'd say let it go. You might get it off your chest by telling them but it'll only be seen as an attack. If they've already refused to address it, they know you know, and either don't have the time or inclination to fix it. The other person has already ended the friendship effectively, it just hasn't been made official.

Some people like to live in drama and create big problems. Don't waste time on them.

[Danustouch]

Some people like to live in drama and create big problems. Don't waste time on them.

Funny you should say that. Because John said the other day, that whenever this person comes into our house, she just seems to bring negativity with her. That trouble just seems to follow her wherever she goes. I agreed, and said.."Yes..and the saddest part of it is, that she has no clue that she creates MOST of that trouble, and negativity, herself, by her lies".

I guess part of the reason that I was tempted to confront her once and for all on it, is that she's done the same thing the entire time I've known her. And I managed to get her out of my life for almost a year, because I couldn't take it anymore. Then she showed up with a bunch of apologies, and explanations, saying how much she had changed, etc, and she seemed "lucid" and real for the first time since I'd known her. Little did I know, that she was merely playing the part that she thought I wanted her to play. Why? Well...This person never does anything, unless it personally benefits her. She's excessively plotting, and manipulating. She tries to map out her life, time and time again, to get where she wants to go, and do what she wants to do, and she will stop at nothing to see her goals reached. She will use people over and over and over, to try to get to where she wants to be. And I just happened to *uncover* her little plan for me. Through comparing the lies that she'd told two other people, against eachother..and then with the lies that she'd told me. So I suppose my wanting to confront her, is a type of knee-jerk pride reaction...."You thought you were going to use me, like you are using everyone else, eh? You thought I would help you with this monstrous plan of yours? You thought I would cover for you, be your little tool,....well...you were wrong. I know it all now. And so do they. You can't get what you want from me.". Basically, under the guise of needing friendship, and a common circumstance in our lives (which is not common at all, because she CREATED her circumstance, and recreates it time and time again. And half of it is made up anyway). And wanting to help me with my circumstance..etc, etc... She was putting a plan into motion to benefit herself. At the cost of many other people. Including me. I am so furious that I could scream...and I guess the part of me that wants to get it off my chest, is that feeling of "You almost had me. I almost believed you. You are seriously deranged!".

But..yes...since she will never learn..and she will only turn around and make me the bad guy...... you're right. I shouldn't waste my breath. In the meantime, I'll just find somewhere else to let it out. Argh!

[Xander67]

Danus, I think the best thing to do is to break it off,
and tell her WHY, so she knows it is her own doing.

Honesty is a major important thing to have in a friendship.

[Ravens_Tears]

This is just hitting way to close to home for me... my ex has put me through a year and a half of pure hell. When someone has problems like this and they refuse to see them or do anything about it, you HAVE to walk away. You don't need that kind of stress and negativity poisoning your life. You can try to let it just "fade away" but if she is persistant be very short, sweet and to the point with her and mean it. The longer this kind of thing goes on, the more they will believe they can continue it. I wish you luck.

Also, might I suggest the Primal Scream thread for stress relief.. :D I have used it and plan to again in the future!!!:D

[Thistle]

Danustouch, I feel for you. Just walk away. This person sounds like my daughter's boyfriend. I put up with his baloney for w-a-y too long, because of her.

If you're dealing with someone who likes to create drama and create problems, you're just giving her what she wants by confronting her. Why give her the satisfaction? She won't listen to a word you have to say anyway, she'll just shrug it off. If you need to vent, we'll listen.

[Semele]

Originally posted by SagaDraco
While we all tell white lies, outright liars are to be avoided at all costs. Most also steal and manipulate to boot.

Everyone sit down, something amazing is about to take place. I completely agree with SagaDraco!! :cool:

You can't change her. If you have caught her or even implied that you might have misunderstood her, she knows that you know she lies and that hasn't encouraged her to stop...what will? It is not worth it in my opinion.

[Yvonne Belisle]

I also agree with SagaDraco and Semele. Cut your ties they aren't worth it.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by Danustouch
That trouble just seems to follow her wherever she goes. I agreed, and said.."Yes..and the saddest part of it is, that she has no clue that she creates MOST of that trouble, and negativity, herself, by her lies".

You've got to wonder what mentality makes those lies ok in her own head - has she honestly fooled herself and pushed the truth out? What kind of backwards thinking is involved? What kind of negative experience or feeling does she have that she satisfies by lying - impressing people, making others look bad, blaming others for her problems, or..?

Someday I bet you'll feel bad for her, but for now I can totally understand your frustration.

[WynterWynd]

I had a very good friend like that, almost exactly like you described, Danustouch. And five years ago after some very horrendous lies that she had told (to my son, no less) I broke off the freindship, cold! No looking back, no regrets. And my life has been all the more peacefull and serene because of it. Dont feel bad, its her problem and she must live with it, but you do not have to deal with it.

[Rubi Waters]

Sadly I too had a friend like that, but I think my friend knew she was doing it . I'm still not sure about that. I just stopped calling her and she didn't bother to find out why.

[Flaire-FireStar]

I had a friend like that too.... She moved a couple of years ago, and although we kept writing back & forth, I learned to keep secrets from her, because I noticed that, along with her lying, she also had a big mouth.

I agree with everyone who has said to break it off with her. These types of people are just so negative......

[Danustouch]

Someday I bet you'll feel bad for her, but for now I can totally understand your frustration

Actually..I have felt sorry for her. And that is why I keep getting tangled up with her. The story she tells of how her parents supposedly treated her, have made me feel very bad for her. But..on the other hand..she lies so often, that it's hard for me to believe that even THAT much is true. Honestly..i'm pretty convinced at this point, that it IS psychosis. That it is pathological. When I spoke to the guy she lives with, he told me that a while back, he basically gave her an ultimatum.."Go Seek Mental Help, or I'm leaving.". Apparently, they diagnosed her with some sort of psychosis, though he couldn't recall the name of the specific disorder (yeah..I know..he SHOULD remember it...but..he's immature himself). He said that at one point, she was hearing things alot. And honestly....I see alot of evidence of Hysteria, or Paranoia in her. She constantly thinks that everyone is out to get her, and ruin her life. Everyone! She blames people for things which she created...not only does she blame them..but she magnifies it into "They just want to ruin my life. They just can't stand to see me happy. They just want to 'keep me down' ". Etc. For instance, she got pregnant, and had to move back in with her parents for a while..she told them it was temporary...because she had no place to go. She took extreme advantage of this. She never helped them with anything...threw fits over the slightest thing (such as her younger sisters playing their music upstairs, when she could still hear it downstairs)..and when the baby was born, expected her mother, and sisters to watch the baby while she napped, while she went to school, while she took baths, while she went out for walks, and out to see friends...etc. Many times, when the baby cried in the middle of the night, she would sleep through it, until her mom would come downstairs and wake her up, and say.."Are you going to pick her up, or feed her?". And she would be angry at her mother for 'butting in'. If her mother refused to watch the baby, for ANY reason... her theory was..."she doesn't want me to have a life, because she never had a life. She just wants me to be miserable. She hates me.". Eventually, her mother got sick of it, and they became distant. At one point, her mom and dad decided to move to New Hampshire, to be close to her Dad's new Job. She flew into a rage, and said.."They're just doing this to destroy my life. They know I have to stay here, so I can go to school. They just don't love me. They hate me. They're 'kicking me out' because they dont' care about me, and they want to destroy my life!". This is only one minor example. How about this one. She's now living with the father of her child. She goes to college, and the baby goes to a daycare. The father of the child, picks the child up from day care, and watches her until she get's home. Then, he watches the baby while she does her homework. And when she wants to go out, he volunteers to watch her, too (when he's not working..he works a split shift). This weekend, she asked him to give her a ride down to our apartment, since her car was in the shop. She said if he did, she'd take the baby with her, so that he could go out with friends for the night. He said.."Okay" and drove her down. She didn't set a time as to when he was supposed to pick her up, nor check with us to see if we could drive them home. (which we couldn't..because our car isn't running). After about two hours, the baby is getting fussy. She tries to get her calmed down, and to go to sleep..but..the baby just wasn't comfortable in a differen't environment. So...although we didnt' mind the fuss, she decides she wants to go home. When we tell her we can't drive her, she tries to call the father of the child...who was out with friends. Obviosly, she couldn't reach him. She spent the remainder of the night, whining, and complaining, about how he "just wants to ruin her night." and "She never get's to do anything. Or go anywhere." "He doesn't want her to have fun". Etc, etc, etc.

These stories go on and on. ANY time she is even mildly displeased with anyone. Any time ANYONE tells her "no" or doesn't rearrange their lives to cater to her every wish...she developes this strange fantasy that "They're just out to ruin her life". In most cases, the truth is, she's making unreasonable demands. Or she didn't think ahead. In short..it's almost always a fault on HER part.

Why does she lie? Because it's part of whatever paranoid psychosis she has. In order to validate her bizzarre paranoid fantasies, she must create lies to "justify" them. That's what I mean..in HER world, the lies she tells really ARE real, alot of the time. She really SEES things that way. Other times, she KNOWS she's lying..but is too scared to admit the truth. She is completely afraid of handling her own life, and her own reality. She can't deal with the situations she gets herself into, time and again. And wants other people to come in and clean up the mess she makes for herself. So she lies, to gain sympathy. She lies to manipulate the feelings of others. She lies to get 'help'. Because she knows that most of us see the mistakes she is making, and she can't STAND to hear..."Well..ya know..you kind of made this bed for yourself. And we're tired of bailing you out!". And then other times, its simply because it's the shortest route to getting what she wants.

She needs a smart guy, to do her homework for her? Tell him that the father of her child is an alchoholic bum, and she can't trust him with the kid, so she can't make it to the Library to study. That'll gain his sympathy. Then he'll do my homework! That sort of thing. She cannot take responsibility for her own life, and her own problems, and her own realities. And tries to change them...all in the wrong ways.

I wish I had a degree in psychology. I could psychoanalyze her then. But..as it is, it seems to me that there is layer upon layer to her mental problems.

Pathological Lying, Paranoia, Escapism, Compulsive Behavior, Obsessions, and the list goes on and on.

I TRY To feel sorry for her..but the truth is, that at some point, I have to say..."this is the way that she is. And I don't need it in my life. Yeah..she's mentally ill, and that's a shame. But..I can't allow this bull into my life anymore!".

[WynterWynd]

are you sure you dont have a degree in psychology?? Wow!! You seem to have her figured out! Just be done with her and let her go on about her deluded life. Yo will be much happier in the long run.

[Amulet]

Hi Danustouch,

Here I am , a complete stranger & new member, about to butt into your life with advice. But, so be it!

This person obviously is based on manipulation as a lifestyle & that's it. She can't offer anyone real friendship. If it were me in your boots, (I somehow think you must have boots) , I would really be wondering what she was making up about me behind my back.

You are no doubt tired of wasting time & energy - confrontation would require both. In this convenient new age when we can make our own cards on our home pcs or online, why not make her something special to get your message across as best you can without personal contact.

I suggest something misty like, "When it comes time for friends to part, their paths must separate for the good of all..." blahblahblah. "There is an end to all things..."
Finishing up with maybe, "And though we will never see each other again, we will not regret..."---"Wishing you well on your journey without me.."

And then you must not listen to one syllable from her in person or any other way. Fini. If she persists, just keep sending her the same card over & over until she finds you boring.

Best of Luck-
Amulet

[Sequoia]

It's really sad, but when someone's life is that far based around such constant lies, there really isn't much you can do, for them or yourself. I agree with what everyone's said - the best thing is probably to confront her, and if it's the same old, same old. . . drop the ties. When folks are that comfortable in their world of lies and half-truths to themselves, it's really next to impossible to get in. If they don't want the truth, they won't see it six inches from their face. It's sad, but true.

[TornadoAli]

Oh, walk away!!!

The "love of my life" was the biggest pathological liar ever. Course, I didn't know that in the beginning, and so was sucked in...To this day, 7 years after I met him and 4 years since I've seen/heard from him, I continue to discover the truth to some his lies...

Nothing hurts worse than that, I don't think. There is a difference between telling little white lies to protect someone or something, and telling blatant lies for the mere sake of telling them. Because it's "fun." It used to amaze me that he could so carelessly hurt me, and think nothing of it.

So yeah, walk away. You won't change her, she is who she is. If you have things that need to be said for your own conscience, maybe write her a letter, and then do or do not send it. I've found that the mere act of writing it out helps sometimes!

[Phoenix Blue]

I agree with Puma except in one facet.

Don't bother confronting the individual. Simply walk away. A pathological liar believes his/her own lies - all you accomplish by trying to confront them on those lies is wasting your own energy and raising their defenses because, to them, you are trying to destroy their worldview.

Simply say, "Right, whatever," and walk away. If they confront you as to why you're taking your leave of them, tell them why; otherwise, don't waste the words or the energy or the time.

[shnen]

hmmm... reminds me of a certain roommate, although it has gotten a tad better with her.

though, if it was something I could walk away from, i think i would keep her at a distance and accept you can never help her. If she hurts you and you won't be able to handle it, then walk away. sometimes walking is better then the emotional and mental abuse they cause to you. be selfish.. think of you, cuz I bet you they aren't.

[Sequoia]

Originally posted by Phoenix_Blue
I agree with Puma except in one facet.

Don't bother confronting the individual. Simply walk away. A pathological liar believes his/her own lies - all you accomplish by trying to confront them on those lies is wasting your own energy and raising their defenses because, to them, you are trying to destroy their worldview.

Simply say, "Right, whatever," and walk away. If they confront you as to why you're taking your leave of them, tell them why; otherwise, don't waste the words or the energy or the time.

Ah, that's true. That may be where I screw up all the time ;) I try to give folks another chance. I figure maybe if I call them on it, show them the truth, they'll realize they were wrong. Ah well *shrugs* such is the world, I suppose. What's that saying "mundus vult decipi"? "The world wants to be decieved." something like that. I saw it in a book.

[Scarlettvixen]

Danustouch
this person sounds to me like she has schizophrenia
i worry about the baby - it sounds like a child at risk

other than that i agree with the advice

[materra]

SV you took the words out of my mouth..... Sorry DT but you don't need the kinda of pain and problems someone like this can cause. Don't tell her about your decision, just stop.

[Danustouch]

Thanks guys. I'm going to just cut ties again. It may be harder than you'd think, she's very manipulative, and persistant. If she can't get at me one way, she'll find another. Call with a crisis involving the child.."She's sick, and I don't know what to do." or.."Roger and I are having a fight, and I don't want Sierra in the house right now...could I bring her down there" etc. If even that fails..she'll go through John..."I had an idea for your website, mind if I come down to tell you about it". etc.

But..I'm going to try to cut her out.

Scarlett..I wouldn't be surprised if it WAS schizophrenia. I know that she has a thyroid problem, and that if she misses her meds, she acts more crazy than ever. Maybe the dosage isn't right? Apparently, she IS seeing a therapist, so...if the therapist is worth her salt, she'll know if the baby is in danger..

[Raevyn]

*nods* I know how it can be very hard to cut ties. You start feeling sympathy for the person, or that they need your help, and you get involved again until you realize "oh wait, they're STILL like that *sigh*".

[Danustouch]

Yep. She had come over one night, and said she wanted to talk to me, and explain all of her previous crazy behavior to me. She apologized for everything, and made some "logical" excuses..and I was willing to give her another chance. Then, in the course of a WEEK, i discovered that she's still acting crazy. Still lying, and manipulating, and still *herself*.

[WynterWynd]

a person like that wil never change, even when they way they will.:(

[tabcat]

Thought I'd throw something out. Your friend may not be schizophrenic; she may have borderline personality disorder. The refusal to take responsibiltiy for anything and all the nonesense about other people hating her and wanting to ruin her life rings pretty close to the BPD tone. So does the need to create drama and chaos; borderlines thrive on these things because 1) they crave the attention and 2) they're typically adrenaline junkies and 3) they're absolutely incapable of being quiet and alone with themselves because there's so much crap bouncing around in their heads. The seeing and hearing things goes along with BPD as well.
Bottom line is until this woman is ready to take responsibility for EVERY area of her life, no one is going to be more than something for her to reflect off of. You can't change her and you can't fix her. She has to fix herself, and that's not going to happen until there is absolutely no one left in her life to bail her out, clean up her messes, and listen to her lies. Whether or not you confront her is something only your heart can tell you. I suggest you detach with love, hold her in whatever prayers you offer to your deities, and go on with your life. At some point, she will burn herself out, and if she survives the process and gets help, then she will possibly be capable of being a friend.
I'm a recovered borderline. I wasn't interested in getting help until I was absolutely and utterly alone. But...I did get help, and when I look back at who I used to be, it's like watching someone else's life.
Hope this helps.

[Night_Goddess]

Originally posted by tabcat
2) they're typically adrenaline junkies
Hi DT--This comment by tabcat is so true! By the way, how about the (oh my god!) Selfish approach:Q: How much attention and energy do we owe someone who is a psychopath? A: none!
--People who thrive on drama and bad behavior are 'emotional terrorists'...somehow, many are convinced they would not/do not have the smarts or resources to do what everyone else is busy doing: having a life!!! The flip side is that rescuers assume these types will crash and burn unless someone helps out. Perhaps the help isn't help at all. It is simply reinforcement of negative behavior. Perhaps the best lesson for her is to crash and burn. Some call it co-dependancy.....to remain hooked into the drama and big noise....and rescue-behavior. Whatever it is, you don't need it. Your kids, (don't know if you have any) will benefit when they see you refuse to waste your time. They learn to value their time/energy and avoid people like that. Good luck, DT. You deserve better friends than that piece of work! Your kindness and good actions are to your credit, even if the boob can't see what a good friend you are. Next......?!