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PaganSpirit
May 31st, 2010, 11:23 PM
Is anyone here or has anyone in the past had any experience with any of the G.D. orders out there? Which ones? What were your experiences? Positive? Negative?
I'm planning on, one day, when I'm financially stable and living on my own hopefully somewhere geographically convenient, joining some kind of mystical order such as the G.D. I've been looking at the different ones out there lately, and I'm a little confused, as there seems to be some tension between some of them, and if makes it difficult to discern which ones are really authentic.
The first one I found that seemed to me to be the real thing is the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn (esotericgoldendawn.com (http://esotericgoldendawn.com)), but I later found some complaints concerning that particular order, so I'm not entirely sure what to think. Then there's the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega (golden-dawn.com (http://golden-dawn.com)). Both groups seem to claim to teach the traditional G.D. system, and yet they seem to be in conflict with each other. So that's got me confused, which is the first reason I'm posting this here, the second being that I'd like to see more discussion on this particular path section. :hahugh:

Mider
May 31st, 2010, 11:38 PM
Originally, i believe it was the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which boasted members such as Aliester Crowley, and Bram Stoker.

There is a group out there which calls itself the H.O.G.D, however it is almost certainly a watered down version of the original..due to the fact that members were only allowed to join via Invitation, and the fact that it was a "secret" organization.

So..to answer your question. I wouldn't trust any of them to be authentic, as the real group is probably still out there as they have always been, finding great amusement at the claims of these groups you mentioned.

PaganSpirit
May 31st, 2010, 11:46 PM
I believe you're referring to the group started by Chic Cicero in 1977? (http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org (http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/)/) That also had me a little confused, as it shares the same name with the HOGD I mentioned in my first post above. Although that one also keeps the name Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega, which was Macgregor Mathers' name for all three orders as a whole, so out of all of them, that one seems to me, currently, to be the closest to traditional. Overall, though, I'm staying skeptical for the time being until I find out more concrete information.

Adalai
June 1st, 2010, 09:38 AM
I don't have anything to add, other than i'm going to be watching this thread for a while. I'm very interested in this as well! I hope more people reply to help you (and me :P)

Mider
June 1st, 2010, 01:26 PM
I believe you're referring to the group started by Chic Cicero in 1977? (http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org (http://http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/)/) That also had me a little confused, as it shares the same name with the HOGD I mentioned in my first post above. Although that one also keeps the name Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega, which was Macgregor Mathers' name for all three orders as a whole, so out of all of them, that one seems to me, currently, to be the closest to traditional. Overall, though, I'm staying skeptical for the time being until I find out more concrete information.


Yes. That is the one. There are a lot of feux organizations. I would leave it up to them to explain the origins of their group, but I would still remain very skeptical as well.

sidhe
June 2nd, 2010, 08:40 AM
The Rundown:

1) The Original Hermetic Order of the G.'.D.'. no longer exists; it tore itself apart over Mathers elevating Crowley without the consent of the other inner order members. A lot of the teachings lived on through Stella Mautina and Argentum Astrum.

2) Israel Regardie made some people very angry and published most of the teachings of the G.'.D.'. - with intentional errors that are pretty bleeding obvious. He'd been both Crowley's secretary and a member of Stella Mautina and feared that the traditions would die out when the last members of SM died. Crowley, also, published many G.'.D.'. teachings, intentionally to make people angry, because he was awesome like that.

3) The Ciceros studied with Regardie, and thus have a semi-legitimate claim to a continuance of the G.'.D.'. traditions.

4) See (2), and it doesn't matter because most of the G.'.D.'. orders are reconstructing from Regardie and Crowley's publications, including the Ciceros.

5) Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn (http://www.osogd.org) for the win!

Adalai
June 2nd, 2010, 07:21 PM
5) Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn (http://www.osogd.org) for the win!

I trust anyone who uses the phrase FTW! :)
No, j/k, seriously though, organizing that information has been very helpful!

Mider
June 2nd, 2010, 09:11 PM
The Rundown:

1) The Original Hermetic Order of the G.'.D.'. no longer exists; it tore itself apart over Mathers elevating Crowley without the consent of the other inner order members. A lot of the teachings lived on through Stella Mautina and Argentum Astrum.

2) Israel Regardie made some people very angry and published most of the teachings of the G.'.D.'. - with intentional errors that are pretty bleeding obvious. He'd been both Crowley's secretary and a member of Stella Mautina and feared that the traditions would die out when the last members of SM died. Crowley, also, published many G.'.D.'. teachings, intentionally to make people angry, because he was awesome like that.

3) The Ciceros studied with Regardie, and thus have a semi-legitimate claim to a continuance of the G.'.D.'. traditions.

4) See (2), and it doesn't matter because most of the G.'.D.'. orders are reconstructing from Regardie and Crowley's publications, including the Ciceros.

5) Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn (http://www.osogd.org) for the win!

Sidhe, thanks for taking the time to do some research. I would have done so if i would have had more time on my hands.

However, considering i was shooting from the hip, my initial response was rather accurate, yes? :thumbsup:

PaganSpirit
June 3rd, 2010, 12:27 AM
5) Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn (http://www.osogd.org) for the win!

I have looked at the OSOGD a bit before, but I don't know, I tend to be a little iffy when it comes to Crowley and Crowley-influenced stuff.

sidhe
June 3rd, 2010, 08:37 AM
I have looked at the OSOGD a bit before, but I don't know, I tend to be a little iffy when it comes to Crowley and Crowley-influenced stuff.

Anything outside of Reconstructionist traditions in modern paganism has some Crowleyan influence - Gardner quoted directly from Thelemic texts for Wiccan rituals, Victor Anderson drew on Crowley for some of Feri philosophy (and theology!), Starhawk drew from Feri, etc.

So, Recons and Dianics...though some Dianics I know have a thing for Babalon as an image of the liberated, independent woman. So it goes.

Crowley really isn't that scary once you get the inside jokes, mainly, and assuming you separate Crowley the rather typical sexist, racist man of the late 1800s (a failing he admitted to...could not break his own upbringing as a "Child of the Old Aeon") from Crowley the Magus of Epic Win there's a lot to be learned from him.


Sidhe, thanks for taking the time to do some research. I would have done so if i would have had more time on my hands.

However, considering i was shooting from the hip, my initial response was rather accurate, yes? :thumbsup:

It was a good shot from the hip. Quick draw with a kung-fu action grip! ;) :thumbsup:


I trust anyone who uses the phrase FTW! :)
No, j/k, seriously though, organizing that information has been very helpful!

"FTW" is actually a sacred Formula. A word of power, if you will. Let us examine it in the QBL!

"F" is represented in Hebrew by "Peh," if we're transliterating. Value - 80. It represents the mouth, Mars, and The Tower.

"T" we'll assume refers to "Teth," 9, the serpent, Leo, and the Lust/Strength or Adjustment/Justice trump.

"W" is "Vav," 6, "pin," the Hierophant, and Taurus.

So, just looking at it from a Tarot perspective, the Tower collapses, destroying the accomplishments of the magician, but through the Strength of Lust and with proper adaptation, the magician may rebuild him/herself into the Hierophant and Master of the Temple.

Or, if we do "T" as "Tau," - the cross, Saturn, and the Universe/World - then you get the destruction of the accomplishments, the self-sacrifice (like Odin, hanging on the World-Ash) of the magician, and then the recreation as the Hierophant. ;)

So, yep, QBL FTW!

RedRaven
August 2nd, 2010, 07:01 PM
The first one I found that seemed to me to be the real thing is the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn (esotericgoldendawn.com (http://esotericgoldendawn.com)), but I later found some complaints concerning that particular order, so I'm not entirely sure what to think.

I would avoid EOGD at all cost. I don`t want to bring the Golden Dawn flame war to this site so I`ll just say "buyer beware". If you are serious about the Golden Dawn either go with the Cicero`s group, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, or you can go the route of self-initiation through the book "Self-Initiation into the Golden Dawn Tradition" (**NOTE**: working through the book wont make you an official member of the Order, but it is good for tapping into the GD current). This is also the option of looking for a local "start-up" group. These are groups of people who take the published material and form a group where an official temple doesnt exist. Some of these start-up groups are better at filling in the holes of the material than other groups, only way to really know for sure is to check them out. All in all, even if you cant find a local group there is plenty of material out there to keep you busy for a very long time. I hope this helps.

SoulFire
October 6th, 2010, 08:31 PM
Anything outside of Reconstructionist traditions in modern paganism has some Crowleyan influence - Gardner quoted directly from Thelemic texts for Wiccan rituals, Victor Anderson drew on Crowley for some of Feri philosophy (and theology!), Starhawk drew from Feri, etc.

As I am an initiate of Cora & Victor's and a member of their last coven, I'm just wondering how you know that Victor "drew on Crowley for some of Feri philosophy?"

sidhe
October 8th, 2010, 06:54 PM
As I am an initiate of Cora & Victor's and a member of their last coven, I'm just wondering how you know that Victor "drew on Crowley for some of Feri philosophy?"

Either that or there's some unusual overlap between the descriptions of Quakoralina and Nuit, as well as the concept of the Black Heart of Innocence and the conception of the Thelemic ideal.

At least as I see it. It is, after all, all conjecture...I merely see parallels between the two. Of course, I'd also suggest that anyone who really taps into the divine is probably going to be saying some very similar things.

SoulFire
October 11th, 2010, 09:08 PM
Either that or there's some unusual overlap between the descriptions of Quakoralina and Nuit, as well as the concept of the Black Heart of Innocence and the conception of the Thelemic ideal.

At least as I see it. It is, after all, all conjecture...I merely see parallels between the two.

Conjecture is one thing. One must be careful when presenting conjecture as fact or firsthand knowledge.


Of course, I'd also suggest that anyone who really taps into the divine is probably going to be saying some very similar things.

That I'd agree with. Scientists talk about "parallel discovery." Victor was a shaman, and he had a saying, "Perceive first, and then decide what to believe." He was a big proponent of direct encounters. The only Crowley books I remember seeing on his bookshelf were Diary of a Drug Fiend, Magick, and perhaps Book of Thoth. Many of the Andersons' books were gifts from students and friends. Reading was also laborious for him, as he had to hold a magnifying glass right up to his eyes. He usually listened to books on tape from the library through a service for the blind.

Many modern Witches have heard or been taught the Charge, but that does not necessarily mean that everyone has read or knowingly borrowed from Crowley. ;) To go so far as to say that's where Victor got his theology is a leap. One must be careful with comparisons. As Starhawk once wrote: "To equate Witches with Nazis because neither are Judeo-Christians and both share magical elements is like saying that swans are really scorpions because neither are horses and both have tails." Incidentally, Victor thought Crowley was a conman trying to see how many people he could fool.

I have heard others (non-initiates) "conjecture" that Victor must have gotten his material from Golden Dawn, and at least one "scholar" has written that Aidan Kelly supplied the theology, which is amusing considering that Victor was teaching in the '50s before he ever met Kelly, and this is attested in Gwydion Pendderwen's own writings. ;)

In fact, Cora says in her book that the idea for the Black Heart of Innocence was inspired by the African symbol of Sankofa. Finally, Victor used multiple names for the Star Goddess including Isis, Kali, and others. People say things like he just borrowed from Gardner or Crowley, or Arkon Daraul or Robert Howard (incidentally, there were no Howard or Daraul books in his house, nor were any found in his garage after he died). Actually, Victor was more influenced by Robert Graves, Charles Leland, and Ajit Mookerjee (author of Kali: The Feminine Force (http://www.amazon.com/Kali-Feminine-Force-Ajit-Mookerjee/dp/0892812125)) than most people know.

DHR
October 11th, 2010, 10:34 PM
i do not have much to add here but i can say people in which ever group can help you in great ways. i was able to study and learn from afew different people.

The K is taken from the word "Magick". The 3 stars around eack letter are just 6 things i see when i travel out of my body. The "o" when right side up is nothing but turn it on its side and its an eye. the eye is closing to dream or to travel. The markings where done with blessed ink, and it was tapped in. When ever i wish to go out of my body i will rasie my astral bodys left hand and draw myself out. when i wish to do so.

back to the Golden Dawn Orders, you will meet fine great people that will help you with this walk in life. Even if you do not stay with them they will help.

sidhe
October 12th, 2010, 11:58 PM
Conjecture is one thing. One must be careful when presenting conjecture as fact or firsthand knowledge.

Agreed. I apologize for any offense. I have a tremendous respect for Anderson and the Feri tradition (my library at this point being roughly split between ceremonial magick and books on Feri), and meant no disrespect.



That I'd agree with. Scientists talk about "parallel discovery." Victor was a shaman, and he had a saying, "Perceive first, and then decide what to believe." He was a big proponent of direct encounters. The only Crowley books I remember seeing on his bookshelf were Diary of a Drug Fiend, Magick, and perhaps Book of Thoth. Many of the Andersons' books were gifts from students and friends. Reading was also laborious for him, as he had to hold a magnifying glass right up to his eyes. He usually listened to books on tape from the library through a service for the blind.

I'm familiar with the LoC Talking Books program...I worked in one of their libraries for the first 2.5 years of my library career. :D

I'd also strongly agree with the importance of direct encounters - reading is one thing, but experience is what matters.


Many modern Witches have heard or been taught the Charge, but that does not necessarily mean that everyone has read or knowingly borrowed from Crowley. ;) To go so far as to say that's where Victor got his theology is a leap. One must be careful with comparisons. As Starhawk once wrote: "To equate Witches with Nazis because neither are Judeo-Christians and both share magical elements is like saying that swans are really scorpions because neither are horses and both have tails." Incidentally, Victor thought Crowley was a conman trying to see how many people he could fool.

Actually, that first one more strikes me as sad - not a lot of pagans (especially around my age) know the history of modern paganism. The emphasis isn't even on establishing a practice, but on rote memorization without full comprehension. To draw to the thread at hand - the LBRP is taught regularly. The way the pentagram lines up with the Tree of Life as a symbol of balance and harmony is not. Of course, I'm a third-generation librarian...everything has to be cross referenced. When I read about the Golden Dawn, Crowley, and Regardie in my very first beginning paganism book, I ran to the fledgling internet to do my own research.

Ironically, I'd largely agree with Victor on Crowley - I think he received a divine revelation which he didn't fully grasp, and his predilection for attention-grabbing and sensationalism ran with it from there. P. T. Barnum with more demons, sex, and political intrigue.


I have heard others (non-initiates) "conjecture" that Victor must have gotten his material from Golden Dawn, and at least one "scholar" has written that Aidan Kelly supplied the theology, which is amusing considering that Victor was teaching in the '50s before he ever met Kelly, and this is attested in Gwydion Pendderwen's own writings. ;)

...I'm utterly taken aback by that. Makes as much sense as the guy I knew who swore he had seen a picture of George Pickingill, Gardner and Crowley together taken in 1891...when Crowley was 16, and Gardner was 7 (and in the Canary Islands)...thus proving that both Gardner and Crowley were initiates of Pickingill's.


In fact, Cora says in her book that the idea for the Black Heart of Innocence was inspired by the African symbol of Sankofa. Finally, Victor used multiple names for the Star Goddess including Isis, Kali, and others. People say things like he just borrowed from Gardner or Crowley, or Arkon Daraul or Robert Howard (incidentally, there were no Howard or Daraul books in his house, nor were any found in his garage after he died). Actually, Victor was more influenced by Robert Graves, Charles Leland, and Ajit Mookerjee (author of Kali: The Feminine Force (http://www.amazon.com/Kali-Feminine-Force-Ajit-Mookerjee/dp/0892812125)) than most people know.

I can very much see the Leland influence. I can't see how anyone could see an influence from Gardner. Crowley, yes (or, rather, Thelema...at least if one was a Radical Liberal Thelemista seeking to liberate Thelema from the bounds of patriarchy and rigidity that seem to have a habit of surrounding it). Graves, yes. And I haven't read Mookerjee...though I'll have to put it on my reading list.

Lastly, I must say (in all seriousness) it's a privilege to be corrected on this by an initiate of Victor Anderson's. Thanks for the information, which I'll be sure to remember in the future. :)

Gaudior
October 26th, 2010, 09:56 PM
I think it would be kinda cool to join an occult order someday. I'll have to look into this.

7 of Swords
January 13th, 2011, 11:44 AM
I know this discussion is a little old but I will add to it anyway. I just finished reading Secret Societies by David V. Barrett and it has a very nice explanation in it about the rise and fall of the original HOGD, and which members are known to have gone off to form other groups etc.

The entire book is very interesting and I personally was concerned mostly in the Golden Dawn aspects of it, but found the entire perspective and narrative of the book very interesting. There is an extensive but concise history of secret organizations, a large marjoity of which deals with freemasonry and rosicrucian development but if anything this really helps put the Golden Dawn into a larger perspective.

Overall I would say this book is a good read for anyone who is thinking about joining a secret or occult group. The author is unbiased and very fact based about what he writes about. He offers up very little opinion about these groups, other then comments about how many misconceptions other authors have brought down on these groups. There is a lot of information I'm sure many of us here already know about, but the way Barrett pieces it together for us into a linear history and development is very convenient.