ever need to give PROOF?

[shnen]

I have a dear friend who is very open, but in the same sense has no direct path of his own. He has gifts, but doesn't quite know how to harness them and use them. The other night we were talking and he said to me...

"you know, this wicca thing is good and everything... (he knows I am) , but I want proof."

hes not asking in a demeaning way or anything... he is just curious... how would you respond to this?

[Phoenix Blue]

**Shrugs** Some things in life you really can't prove. Beliefs are unprovable by definition: if you believe, no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway you. If you don't believe, no amount of evidence will convince you.

Ask him if he loves his parents. Then ask him to prove it. ;) If he still can't work past that block, let him be.

[Old Witch]

If we're talking about "faith" here, I don't think there is "proof".
You can't prove Wicca any more than you can prove Christianity.....or any other religion or path.
But that's just my opinion.

[shnen]

i think he still has the ideas of wicca that the general public does... that all we do is cast spells and turn people into frogs...

[MammaStar]

My answer is simple, and maybe not enough, but I'd probably either take them outside or hand them a mirror and say "There's your proof"

[Semele]

I don't guess I understand the question. What is he asking you to prove exactly?

I guess for me spirituality is not something that needs to be proven to another person. Maybe you could find a tactful way to express that and still offer any info about Wicca that he may want to know. The way I see it you can't prove anything to him..he would have to find the truth for himself.

[Phoenix Blue]

Maybe what he needs is a reason to believe? That sometimes means physical evidence, but sometimes not. . .

[shnen]

I think he is asking to prove that wicca is real.. I really think he is talking about the whole magic part of it... casting circles, lighting candles, energy and such... he asked me at 4 in the morning when I was pretty much asleep, so I didn't exactly answer him, because I was sleeping... but I think he means it to ask, because I really think he is searching for something...

[Earth Walker]

I think that it shouldn't have to be proven, it is there in every
person -- they just need to look deep down inside of them-
selves. The memory of our ancestors is there, in our genes,
and people need to use their spirit eyes to see this.
The Great Mystery....is just that.....the Great Mystery.

Mitakuye Oyasin
In The Spirit Of Crazy Horse http://users.skynet.be/gedi/emoticons4u/dressed/bek127.gif

[Semele]

Originally posted by shnen
but I think he means it to ask, because I really think he is searching for something...

I think you may be right. Just try to tell him what makes it real to you. If nothing else he can see how it works for you and at least respect it for that. Who knows, maybe you are to teach him something and in the process learn something yourself. Those are my favorite lessons I think.

[Raevyn]

Has he ever been astounded by the beauty of a sunset, the magnificence of mountains, the awesome power of volcanoes or storms?

Has he ever met a child who had insisted on carrying a favoured blankie or toy - where the blanket or toy itself calmed them even though there's no logical reason for it?

Has he ever been in love, or felt the power of hate?

These things are magic.

We just seek to proactively harness the energies in the sunet, the mountains, and volcanoes. We seek to recreate the power in a favourite blankie, a lucky charm, or the power of emotions.

All magic is is a method for us to try to create or alter those energies to a desired ends. Our tools are the ceremonies and practices we employ. He looks for the extraordinary, when magic is just the ordinary.

[Semele]

Originally posted by Raevyn
He looks for the extraordinary, when magic is just the ordinary.

That is an incredibly simple yet poetic sentence that says so much. Thank you for that.

[shnen]

Thank you Raevyn, that was beautifully written :)

and thanks to everyone else for their opinions :) very helpful.

[kblackthorne]

Couple of thoughts here:

If he wants proof it's "real", and you think he's legitimately seeking (maybe not seeking his path, but at least seeking understanding), why not cast a Circle with him?

(Not <i>for</i> him, as a show, but <i>with</i> him, in a small, private ritual.)

Did you have a teacher? If so, do you remember your first Circle with them? Wasn't it amazing? Why not... offer him that?

A bit of guided breathing & relaxation, a bit of chanting -- "ohm" is good for this -- to get you both in the same place & help him get the energy flowing, then... Cast. Offer him parts to play, but don't push. {"Offer" can mean make inquiring eye-contact, expecting a "no".} Keep it simple, keep the "props" to a minimum. And let him experience the reality first-hand.

[fire_Raven]

i had a simular situtation... a friend of mine was asking me about the religion... and i was explaining things to him, then he asked for proof... i asked him what he meant, he replied "i dunno, like a spell or something..."
i looked at him "i can summon the wind..."
he said "as soon as i see it, i'll count it as proof, so we walked outside, and i called the wind. he smirks and asked if he could try... i told him what to do, and as soon as he had done it, the wind kicked up... i joined in and the trees around my backyard were trashing about, but the wind wasn't touching us...
so now he believes... sometimes proof is as simple as that...

[Wyrdsister]

Originally posted by fire_Raven
sometimes proof is as simple as that... But for some of us, offering that kind of proof might not be that "simple." Something tells me I'd have a hard time calling up the wind! :)

Wyrdsister

[flar7]

Originally posted by Wyrdsister
But for some of us, offering that kind of proof might not be that "simple." Something tells me I'd have a hard time calling up the wind! :)

Wyrdsister

I have no problem with summoning the wind! :T


hmmm, try turning him into a frog. But warn him it cant be reversed!


or say, "abra cadabra!"

[Pan]

I agree with everyone that's posted so far. Raevyn's words were quite beautiful, but that doesn't always work.

Some, who are more inclined toward being Christian, might not see it as magic and "proof" of the pagan path. It could just be God's will and all that, just as it is magic for us. I don't mean to sound uppity, if I am, and I don't mean to offend, if I am. I've always jsut wondered why many use that to "prove" to those who question their path.. when it could be used under any other connotation.

I just get confused, I suppose. But, yeah, asking for proof is like saying to prove that you love your parents.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by Loki Panwit
Some, who are more inclined toward being Christian, might not see it as magic and "proof" of the pagan path. It could just be God's will and all that, just as it is magic for us.

Yeah, but for many people magic is God's will. Magic is the manifestation of divine. So to me, that fits in perfectly.


I've always jsut wondered why many use that to "prove" to those who question their path.. when it could be used under any other connotation

Not sure what you mean, what's "any other connotation" it could be used in to disprove it?

[Wyrdsister]

Originally posted by flar7
I have no problem with summoning the wind! :T Well, I guess it would depend on the type of wind you're trying to summon ;), but I don't think that's what shnen ment! :p :D

Wyrdsister

[Raevyn]

:lol:

[shnen]

:rotfl:

nah, he isn't asking to be snooty, or objective, as I mentioned before I think its pure curiosity, and I know that as soon as my friends found out I was a witch they asked SO many questions.. they jsut want to know. :)

[StormChaser]

Originally posted by LdyStarlite
My answer is simple, and maybe not enough, but I'd probably either take them outside or hand them a mirror and say "There's your proof"
That is EXACTLY what I have said and done in the past.

[Eudaimonia]

For those who have faith, proof isn't neccesary. For those who don't, no proof is enough.