Research: Why use the word Witch?

[moonmorgan]

I was having a conversation with my mom today and she asked me why we use the word witch for ourselves and on books related to the craft when it has such bad connotations. She said that if we didn't use the word witch, people would assume we were evil. I told her I'd look into it.

I also told her that it was something like the reason that same homosexuals call themselves queer and why some african americans call themselves ******s. (sorry, normally wouldn't type that word but needed to make sure everyone understood)

Then I tried to explain to her what Witch means and realized that I'm not really sure. I've studied it and come up with a new answer each time. So I've started a personal project to write an article on the use of the word witch. This is where you guys come in.

I would like to know (asap) if you call yourself Witch and why you think we use it. What does it mean and should we just eliminate it from our vocabulary. Please also say whether I can quote you in my article. It probably won't be published but if it is, it would only be to Witchvox and my own webpage.

Thanks.

[ShadowStorm]

It's who I am. It is what describes me.

I am Pagan - yes. But there are many sorts of pagans.

I do not believe that the two words "witch" and "wiccan" have the same meaning, because to me, they do not. Wicca is a new religious "path". It is based on the principles of one Mr Gardner, who I am sure was a nice guy, but my religious choice goes way back...much further back than this new wiccan movement. I believe that Wicca mimics the Olde Ways, but a lot has been lost in the attempt to do so. (no offence to anyone...this is just my view.)

I am Witch. The old lady at the end of the village, who lives in a cottage and brews potions for the people. The young maiden that sits upon the forest floor with animals beside and around her. The mother who looks down at her infant and sees the Goddess in her child's eyes.

I am not Wiccan.
I am not a sorcerer.
I am not a druid.
I am not a shaman.
I am not many things.

Somewhere, there is a saying that boils down to this:- You have to know what you're NOT in order to know what you ARE.

I believe this to be true.


I am a Solitary Witch. And I am proud of it. I harm none. I practise the Olde Ways. I am very connected to the elements and the earth. I live within nature. I hold the fundamentals of life close to me.

And there is nothing that describes the mystical feeling my religion gives me, other than that ONE word.

"Witch".

'tis just me. and I am proud of who I am.

And yes...you can quote me on that.

:boing:

[Raevyn]

There are many who point to witch having a different meaning prior to the trials etc., and they point out they are reclaiming it and have no need to accept the concepts others have associated it with.

There are many others who point out witch probably wasn't used by the people themselves before the trials.

There are discussions of the etymology of the world, and the importance of usage.

I'm sure Ben or PB, Wanderer or Azure, etc. could probably give you much more information and historical reasoning then I could.

Personally, I've never used the word witch in company of those who might take it the wrong way. Even when I considered myself a witch I often used the term Paganm, because I always practiced witchcraft within the confines of some Pagan religion. Now I'm not a witch anyway so it doesn't matter ;)

[Yvonne Belisle]

Your question made me curious about the origin of the word so I looked it up. I have found several interesting articles on it via yahoo search. I think in many ways I am a witch in the sense of a person who does some herbery and has an affinity for things of a more earthy nature ie weather, green and growing things...

[Old Witch]

I am a witch.........I am almost exactly what ShadowStorm said....and ShadowStorm, I could not have said it nearly as well as you.............

The only difference is I will throw out a curse now and again, but only when really pushed.......

[Ben Gruagach]

I definitely consider myself a Witch, but also a Wiccan and Pagan. I tend to use the term that is most appropriate depending on who I'm talking with. For instance, with people who don't know about my religious path if the question comes up I usually say I'm a Pagan, or even use Wiccan if I know the person is aware what that means.

Identifying Gardnerian and Gardnerian-derived or inspired religions as Wiccan is actually a pretty new thing. When Gardner was alive, he apparently used the term Wica or Wicca only a few times, and to him it appears to have been interchangeable with the word Witch or Witchcraft. A lot of the early writers tended to follow that interchangeability so it's not really a surprise when people are still confused about it all.

It's probably best now, though, to use the term Wicca to refer to Gardnerian witchcraft or witchcraft based on Gardner's ideas (a philosophy usually including things like those described in the Principles of Wiccan Belief, found on the web at places like http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_stat1.htm)

Some people have said that the word witch means "wise one," but that is a recent attempt to give it a positive spin. Etymologists (who study word origins) tend to point to links with the word "wicker" and "willow" as being related, and say that witch means "one who bends" as in bends things to their purposes or goals. It is a big question whether anyone prior to Gardner really called themselves witches or not in any organized way. Most spellworkers of the folk-magick type seem to have preferred to call themselves "cunning men" or "cunning women" or "wise women" or "herbalists" or "astrologers" -- almost anything except for "witch" it seems, if they gave themselves a title at all.

Isaac Bonewits has a good intro to witchcraft called "Witchcraft: A Concise Guide" that talks a lot about the meanings and origins of terms as well as a historical overview. Ronald Hutton's book "Triumph of the Moon" is another excellent resource to check to see how the term "witch" was used in the past, and how it changed when Gardner came on the scene.

[ShadowStorm]

Originally posted by Old Witch
I am a witch.........I am almost exactly what ShadowStorm said....and ShadowStorm, I could not have said it nearly as well as you.............

The only difference is I will throw out a curse now and again, but only when really pushed.......


Firstly.....the only reason I wrote it like that is because, for some reason, I am very passionate about that word. and about my choice of path. It came from the heart!! Thanks for the compliment!!!

As for the cursing..... don't feel alone. I do it too, if needed. But only when pushed, as you said.
I don't think that the Olde Ways had a moritorium on curses and hexes.
They were part of the trade, as long as they were used wisely. You know...everything has it's place and all that.

Once again, this is a difference between wicca and Withcraft. Wicca has a problem with this subject. Harm none and all that.

But if you rape a child, I'm sorry, a little hex in your path can only do you good. No harm in arranging that justice be handed down. Call me an instrument of Karma, if you will.

I'm sure there's many an old witch that can tell you a thing or two about hexery. It wasn't forbidden. It's was practised quietly and effectively.

Heheheheh...there I go again. You got me talking!!!!

:boing:

[Emaleth]

Your question made me think and I'm really not sure about the answer.

What I believe is that a Witch and a Wiccan or Pagan don't mean the same, although I consider myself to be a Witch as well as Wiccan/Pagan, as Ben. I guess Wicca to me is more about religion or ideology, and being a witch simply means that I practice magick. But this is all very subjective and only IMHO.

[shnen]

Just because certain groups of people over the centuries have made Witch into a bad word (in society) doesn't mean I am going to stop using it.
A dear friend of mine uses the word witch instead of bitch around his children.. he didn't realize what he was saying until I told him it offended me thew way he used the term... he never actually THOUGHT about it, which is funny, considering he is looking towards paganism as his path ;)

I am a witch...
hear me chant, sing, bless and energize :)
and like ow... sometimes curse ;)

[SuperHeroGirl]

You know moonmorgan, think about what you said in the origianl post. You apologized for typingthe n" word ( whch I will ot...sory! ) but didnt for saying "queer". Sorry i thought I'd point that out. I dont mean anyhtin mean by it toward you but remember...all hate crimes start with words! Try to not say anything that is biased againt anyone....KARMA! An ts the right thing to do :)

[moonmorgan]

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far:

Yvonne:
>Your question made me curious about the origin of the word so >I looked it up.

I looked in a variety of online dictionaries to find that most of them have added practitioner of Wicca under the term Witch.

SuperHeroGirl:
>You know moonmorgan, think about what you said in the >origianl post. You apologized for typingthe n" word ( whch I will >ot...sory! ) but didnt for saying "queer".

That is because queer is used more often in a good way than the N word is. Funny how you pointed that out and yet you wouldn't type the N word but would type the Q word!

>all hate crimes start with words! Try to not say anything that is >biased againt anyone....KARMA! An ts the right thing to do

You will notice that I used the words demonstrating examples of people who use words to describe themselves that are more often known as discriminatory words. I do not believe that I was being biased against anyone.

[Ben Gruagach]

I've heard the use of words which are considered offensive described as acceptable when they're used by someone "within the community."

I'm gay, so I understand it isn't meant to be offensive when someone who I know who is "in the community" uses the word "queer" or "fag" or "sissy" or whatever. But when someone who doesn't appear to be "in the community" uses it, it does tend to come across as offensive.

It's a matter of being aware of who the audience is you're speaking to, and using words that are appropriate for the circumstances. A word can mean lots of different things that change depending on circumstances and expectations of the audience.

As magick-users and weavers of spells and subtle influences, the study of language and careful highly conscious use of words can easily become a focus of personal study.

Judy Grahn wrote a book called "Another Mother Tongue" which is quite interesting and goes into a lot of depth on this topic. And Mary Daly's book "Webster's First New Intergalactic Wickedary of the English Language" illustrates one feminist-based attempt to consciously use language to defuse negative connotations and empower women in particular. I'd recommend both books for witches who want to strengthen their own spell-weaving skills. Language is powerful and certainly one of the tools at our disposal as magick-users!

[Phoenix Blue]

I don't know all that much about the historical concept, actually. I use it because it seems to fit. **Smiles** As ShadowStorm, I use majick as I need to use it - if something considered "harmful" is necessary according to my beliefs and my ethics, I will do it. This is no different, to me, from shooting someone if they pose an imminent threat to my life or priority government resources (such as aircraft). I'm happy to say I don't shoot people very often ;), and that my practice of "harmful" majick is similarly limited.

Of course, I also believe that majick must complement mundane practices, not replace them. A binding on someone does no good if you don't actively work in a mundane sense to remove them from your life. You have to work on both planes - the physical and the spiritual - because you live in both planes.

[Skye]

Originally posted by Old Witch
I am a witch.........I am almost exactly what ShadowStorm said....and ShadowStorm, I could not have said it nearly as well as you.............

The only difference is I will throw out a curse now and again, but only when really pushed.......

I agree with you both, in my greatgrandmas day, they called themselves heathens( in thier part of the world). But in todays world I find that the word witch is more suitable for my purpose.

However, I have been known to use both terms interchangeably. To me it is a way of life, not a religious practise

[ShadowStorm]

Originally posted by Skye
I agree with you both, in my greatgrandmas day, they called themselves heathens( in thier part of the world). But in todays world I find that the word witch is more suitable for my purpose.

However, I have been known to use both terms interchangeably. To me it is a way of life, not a religious practise


Now...there is where you and I disagree!! (This is such fun....I love debating these issues!)

I understand the word "heathen" to mean "godless" or one who does not believe in any type of god.

I assure you, I very much believe in the Lord and Lady.

I'm sure that you're grandmothers had a different meaning for this. Can you enlarge?? I'm curious!!!!!

*grins*

:boing:

[Skye]

Originally posted by ShadowStorm
Now...there is where you and I disagree!! (This is such fun....I love debating these issues!)

I understand the word "heathen" to mean "godless" or one who does not believe in any type of god.

I assure you, I very much believe in the Lord and Lady.

I'm sure that you're grandmothers had a different meaning for this. Can you enlarge?? I'm curious!!!!!

*grins*

:boing:

I am not sure there is much of a debate here, as I said, to me the meaning is a way of life, not a religious practise. My greatgrandmother was a village healer with no referrence to any type of god, that was just what she did.

We,(my family) believe our way of life is not a religious path, but one that has be handed down to us by our ancestors( the guardians). We are protecters of the land, with little reference to any gods.
I have never concidered it to be a bad thing not to follow gods/goddesses, it just has never been part of our life. Therefore, I would not consider a heathen to be a godless person, just one that does not put a god in the forefront of thier existance.

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by ShadowStorm
I understand the word "heathen" to mean "godless" or one who does not believe in any type of god.

You'll probably hear more about this pretty soon, but I understood the modern use of the term "heathen" to mean groups like the Asatruar, who apparently don't really like being called "pagan."

In the same way that many of us are claiming positive meanings for terms like "witch" and "pagan," there are groups who are making "heathen" a positive thing too.

[Amethyst Rose]

And to me, the term "heathen" means a person who is Asatru, because that is what they call themselves. :)

I am a witch, and my definition is different than what I've read here so far. I've never researched the word, so I go on how it feels to me.

To me, a witch is one who bends energies to his/her will to achieve a desired end. That's what I do, that's what I am. Anyone can be a witch, religion doesn't matter, so to me it has nothing to do with nature or gods or goddesses or any of that.

[Skye]

Originally posted by Amethyst Rose
And to me, the term "heathen" means a person who is Asatru, because that is what they call themselves. :)[QUOTE]

Don't konw about that, We are not, what you say, Asatru, just simple people in a vast world.


[QUOTE]To me, a witch is one who bends energies to his/her will to achieve a desired end. That's what I do, that's what I am. Anyone can be a witch, religion doesn't matter, so to me it has nothing to do with nature or gods or goddesses or any of that. [/B]

Yes a witch (heathen) is one who bends energies, and yes it has nothing to do with gods?goddesses.

[Amethyst Rose]

Don't konw about that, We are not, what you say, Asatru, just simple people in a vast world.

What I meant was that because the people I know who refer to themselves as heathen are Asatru, that is who I think of when I hear the word "heathen". To me, heathen means Asatru, not godless (as is the common definition).


Yes a witch (heathen) is one who bends energies, and yes it has nothing to do with gods?goddesses.

I don't understand why you said "a witch (heathen)..." I'm a witch, but I'm not a heathen, so I don't really understand how the two coincide...

[Skye]

Originally posted by Amethyst Rose


I don't understand why you said "a witch (heathen)..." I'm a witch, but I'm not a heathen, so I don't really understand how the two coincide...

For myself, the two words mean the same. I understand that is not true for everyone, no disrespect intended.

[Amethyst Rose]

Ah, I gotcha. No problem. :D

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by Amethyst Rose
To me, a witch is one who bends energies to his/her will to achieve a desired end. That's what I do, that's what I am. Anyone can be a witch, religion doesn't matter, so to me it has nothing to do with nature or gods or goddesses or any of that.

Amethyst Rose, you've illustrated well with yourself as an example that there is a difference between witchcraft as a craft or practice and witchcraft as a religion (for example in Wicca, which I don't think could be considered non-religious witchcraft.)

Not all witches are Wiccans, and not all witches (you for example) necessarily make their witchcraft as part of their religion.

Some people make the distinction between non-religious witches and religious witches by using capital letters. For example, a religious person is a Witch but a nonreligious one is a witch. It's one way some people try and keep the two types of witch clear, at least to themselves as they write.

[Skye]

Originally posted by Ben Gruagach
Amethyst Rose, you've illustrated well with yourself as an example that there is a difference between witchcraft as a craft or practice and witchcraft as a religion (for example in Wicca, which I don't think could be considered non-religious witchcraft.)

Not all witches are Wiccans, and not all witches (you for example) necessarily make their witchcraft as part of their religion.

Some people make the distinction between non-religious witches and religious witches by using capital letters. For example, a religious person is a Witch but a nonreligious one is a witch. It's one way some people try and keep the two types of witch clear, at least to themselves as they write.

ben, I really had never considered the capitalization of the word witch to mean anything other than witch. If you are into a religious practise such as wicca, would you just not say so, why confuse folks with such actions?

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by Skye
ben, I really had never considered the capitalization of the word witch to mean anything other than witch. If you are into a religious practise such as wicca, would you just not say so, why confuse folks with such actions?

Not all religious witches are Wiccans. Wiccans are just one group within the larger group known as witches (including both religious and nonreligious types.) It's the same as not all pagans are witches, either. There are lots of pagans who are not witches, but most religious witches (although again not necessarily all) tend to be pagans.

[Skye]

Originally posted by Ben Gruagach
Not all religious witches are Wiccans. Wiccans are just one group within the larger group known as witches (including both religious and nonreligious types.) It's the same as not all pagans are witches, either. There are lots of pagans who are not witches, but most religious witches (although again not necessarily all) tend to be pagans.

Ok,I understand that not all religious witches are wiccans, but I did not think that all wiccans considered themselves witches (I do not think they do), what does this have to do with capitalization of the word witch?

[mol]

I wish I could call myself a Witch. It would be soooooooo much easier!

[Skye]

Originally posted by mol
I wish I could call myself a Witch. It would be soooooooo much easier!

Ah, yes it would

[Sequoia]

I don't call myself a witch. :)

Mostly, I think of the term "witch" to mean either someone who practices Wicca, or someone who is more into the herbals and greenery and more nature-y side of magick. I consider myself a mage (hey, don't scoff!). I do a lot of energy-work, much of which really hasn't got so much religion in it as philosophy. Sometimes I pray, or have a small alter-ish type area (a windowsil in my case, with a space for a candle, and various small things that mean important things to me). Sometimes the energy work I do has absolutely nothing to do with the gods at all, so far as I can tell. Energy work and religion are often seperate for me. I use the term "mage" because it doesn't nessicarily imply any religion to me at all. *smiles*

Then again, I wouldn't exactly tell a fundie I was a mage. . . I might explain that I'm Pagan. But that's because it's a simpler umbrella term *wink* usually I dont' speak up on it much. Why draw attention to yourself, when others are more than willing to do it themselves? :lol:

[Amethyst Rose]

Originally posted by Ben Gruagach
Amethyst Rose, you've illustrated well with yourself as an example that there is a difference between witchcraft as a craft or practice and witchcraft as a religion (for example in Wicca, which I don't think could be considered non-religious witchcraft.)

Not all witches are Wiccans, and not all witches (you for example) necessarily make their witchcraft as part of their religion.

Some people make the distinction between non-religious witches and religious witches by using capital letters. For example, a religious person is a Witch but a nonreligious one is a witch. It's one way some people try and keep the two types of witch clear, at least to themselves as they write.

I agree with you one hundred percent, Ben, in that not all witches are Wiccans. I also believe, however, that not all Wiccans are witches. It's rare, but it happens.
My non-capitalization of the word really meant nothing. I, myself, am a wiccan. (My non-capitalization of that word IS relevant, because I am not initiated into a Trad., however that's a different argument all together).
Because I believe that the two are separate, I am two things. I am a witch, and I am wiccan. I don't capitalize the word witch, because, to me, it is not a religion. Any witchcraft I do IS non-relgious witchcraft. I don't call upon gods or goddesses to cast a spell, I use my own will and possibly items to focus that will, but that is it. There's nothing divine to it...it's simply skill.

[LadyV]

I was a Witch and used the word LONG before all the wannabes and the now cool word to be called, "Wiccan" so I continue as I always have!

[Xentor]

Greetings,

I don't use the word "witch" to describe myself. I have been known to call myself a "magician" (but only when performing entertainment magic) and a "mage", much like Puma Hime, and much for the same reasons. I bend energy. I use it to heal and persuade. I would even use the term "motivator" to describe myself, or "inspiror".

I use spells mainly to get people's attention, not to make reality change. I will persuade people, but never considered that witchcraft. I have healed people ever since I learned how to, and never considered that witchcraft. Therefore, according to me I don't practice witchcraft and I'm not a witch.

Which makes me wonder if I even have a clear view what witchcraft encompasses.

[WynterWynd]

Witch, that is who I am and will always be.




heathen

\Hea"then\ (?; 277), n.; pl. Heathensor collectively Heathen. [OE. hethen, AS. h??en, prop. an adj. fr. h?? heath, and orig., therefore, one who lives in the country or on the heaths and in the woods (cf. pagan, fr. pagus village); akin to OS. h??in, adj., D. heiden a heathen, G. heide, OHG. heidan, Icel. hei?inn, adj., Sw. heden, Goth. haipn?, n. fem.

This is the only deffinition of heathen that I know of (other than the non-religious one)..........and it something my grammy called me as a child when I was being wild:p

[Raevyn]

The people on the heaths (heathens) were the last to be converted (if ever) since they lived the furthest away from churches and lords, etc. Thus why heathen is sometimes used as equivalent to barbarian, though it's closer to a loose term relating to "pagan".

What amuses me is those who steadfastly hold onto being called witches, proudly flying against its connotations then have a conniption about Satanists (who don't worship Satan at all) but use that label because of the negative connotations that word suggests. If we were to stop using every word that has been misused many would be lost.

As to the capitalization, it only serves as useful to the person writing the word, and perhaps some people who read it if they know that standard. But then, people who write the word and read it knowing that standard don't have to be told the difference.

For me, I capitalize or don't willy nilly anyway ;)

The answer I've liked most is - "I call myself a witch because that's what I am."

[Morrighana]

Oh, wow. Such diverse opinions on such a small word! Here's my $0.02, although I am mostly echoing the sentiment of others.

I use the word "witch" to describe myself, and to me it means a practitioner of magick of any type or color (i.e. green, white/black, ceremonial, religious, etc). Not to say that to be a witch one must practise ALL types, just that a practitioner of any type can be called the same. Like many others, capitalization, or lack thereof, makes no difference to me. Usually, I capitalize it when referring to a specific person, simply because it is a title, and don't capitalize when simply mentioning the word, but that is more a choice based on how I write than how I think about the word.

Raevyn's definition of the word "heathen" suits to a T how I think of that word. I've always thought of a heathen with a "hearth worshipper" connotation. Again, the capitalization comes in here, as most Asatruar *I* know tend to capitalize the word when referring to themselves. So, if I'm referring to my religious practises, especially among non-Paganism-literate individuals, I might refer to myself as a heathen.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by LadyV

I was a Witch and used the word LONG before all the wannabes and the now cool word to be called, "Wiccan" so I continue as I always have!

Just a note here - I found this post somewhat offensive. "Wiccan" isn't the "cool" word for witch, and many of those who use it do so for reasons as valid as you use your own labels. It's like you're implying you've been a witch longer so your use is valid.

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by Raevyn

Just a note here - I found this post somewhat offensive. "Wiccan" isn't the "cool" word for witch, and many of those who use it do so for reasons as valid as you use your own labels. It's like you're implying you've been a witch longer so your use is valid.

By the way, Gerald Gardner used the word "Wica" (spelled with one C) back in his book "Witchcraft Today" which was published in 1954. The word "Wiccan" has been used by lots of people since then.

[LadyV]

I'm sorry you found it offensive, but I stand by it! I see, and am around, what I call the "wannabes" on a weekly basis....wearing big (and I mean big) Pentagrams, and spouting off that their "Wiccan". Here in the Highlands of Louisville, to be "wiccan" is indeed the "popular, cool thing", hence my outlook. If my first post here doesn't "fit" you, then don't worry about....it obviously wasn't directed at you. I also did not mean that "all" Wiccans are wannbes...again, you took it that way......

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by LadyV
If my first post here doesn't "fit" you, then don't worry about....it obviously wasn't directed at you. I also did not mean that "all" Wiccans are wannbes...again, you took it that way......

Actually, I didn't say anything about wannabes, I said


Originally posted by Raevyn "Wiccan" isn't the "cool" word for witch,

It's the name of a beautiful religion that means a lot to many people here. Your wording suggests that "Wiccan" is the "cool" word for witch; I'm not arguing about the people you know or whether you said all Wiccans are wannabes, I'm saying that's not what Wicca is.

I'm actually thinking the difference between Wicca and witch was dissected a couple pages ago in this thread.

[mol]

Originally posted by LadyV

I'm sorry you found it offensive, but I stand by it! I see, and am around, what I call the "wannabes" on a weekly basis....wearing big (and I mean big) Pentagrams, and spouting off that their "Wiccan". Here in the Highlands of Louisville, to be "wiccan" is indeed the "popular, cool thing"

So, how big can a Pentagram be before it is considered to be a 'wannabe' symbol? Maybe these folks you are speaking of are truly Wiccan? Whats wrong with announcing Your Path to everyone around!? People should be proud of their Path!

I think all religions and Path's are cool.

Its fun to be me. :D

[Theres]

i am a Wiccan, and i am a witch.
a witch because i practice the old crafts, and a Wiccan NOT because i completely buy into what Gerald Gardner created, but because i believe in the concepts on which he based his creation.

there are endless threads (here and everywhere else) on whether or not one must be a Gardnerian to be a true Wiccan. i think not, and find even the arguement to be rather silly.
Gardner may have given 'Wicca' it's birth, but it has certainly taken a life of it's own.

one needn't be Wiccan to be a witch, but perhaps the opposite is also true.

i am both.

[Morrighana]

Originally posted by mol

So, how big can a Pentagram be before it is considered to be a 'wannabe' symbol? Maybe these folks you are speaking of are truly Wiccan? Whats wrong with announcing Your Path to everyone around!? People should be proud of their Path!



I definately agree here. While some people DO use Paganism for it's shock value, I see nothing wrong with wearing big symbols of our faiths. I, personally, carry a big purple canvas bag with a six inch white pentacle on it (along with some fancy decorating knotwork and such). If you, LadyV, saw me on the street, would you assume I'm just a wannabe?

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by Greenman one needn't be Wiccan to be a witch, but perhaps the opposite is also true.

That really would depend on your own use of the terms magic and witch, I think. Some Wiccans don't do spells, and consider witchcraft to involve (folk) spells, so don't consider themselves witches. Some consider magic to be specifically spellwork, so don't think they do magic at all (although others would suggest the rituals necessary to Wicca, and just connecting as you do as a Wiccan, is magic in and of itself).

I don't consider spells to be necessary to Wicca, but I do think it requires a certain level of ritual or at least prayer - communion with the Gods and their divinity in nature, that sort of thing. But of course it's not like I have the answers :)

[LadyV]

This is SO ridicules! What I am talking about, which in all fairness to you, you can't understand because you are not in my mind and, I am assuming, do not live in Louisville, are the people running around here with 2" think black eyeliner, pink hair, huge pentagrams spouting off how they can cast spells at you. NOW before everyone gets all offensive AGAIN....nothing wrong with black liner OR pink hair...I front a band, I have my nose pierced...it's just very hard for me to explain to you on a board what I see here, and I regret coming here and even answering as I am not very good explaining myself. You cannot see my expressing, nor can you hear inflection within my voice and yes, I call them wannabes and you have taken me out of context. In case you are not aware of it, there is a trend going on in where it is "cool" to be witchy/wiccan goth at the moment. No offense to any goths out there either. I think you all know, there are those that are true to what they are and those that follow the current trendy thing...I guess I will now just leave here and let you take it in any way in which you choose to regardless of how I may of meant it....if you want to be offended...have at it!

[Raevyn]

LadyV, I think the point is that if you're going to say "Wicca is the 'cool' term for wannabes" people who use that term legitimately are going to be a bit concerned. No one's arguing that there aren't wannabes, but I think the idea is that a) they aren't that easy to judge and b) why judge them.

It's like if someone said "facial piercings are the 'cool' thing for wannabes". You'd explain that not all people with facial piercings are wannabes, and the comment would probably draw your attention if not raise your hackles. You'd probably think the person shouldn't make broad statements like that because they imply things, even though you know some people do get facial piercings just to be 'cool', and even if they said "well don't get offended, you're reading more into it, I didn't say all people with facial piercings are wannabes!".

You'd probably even think "what business is it of anyone what jewelry I wear, or how I express myself!".

I'm pretty sure no one's offended at all, but I do think people are trying desperately to get points across both ways in a discussion that admittedly isn't easy online.

[Ben Gruagach]

It is rarely wise to "judge a book by its cover."

If you look through some of the books about the occult which happen to include photos of people, it's quite common to see people dressed in robes, sometimes with heavy makeup (if they're women, usually), with obvious Pagan jewelry. A recent book, "Wiccan Wisdomkeepers" by Sally Griffyn has lots of colour photos of people who look very Pagan. There are photos of Doreen Valiente posing in black with a pointy black witches' hat on her head, and many of the photos I've seen of Gerald Gardner and Alex Sanders really play up the wild Pagan look.

If we were to judge people based on how they look, or how flashy their jewelry, then I really wonder if Gardner, Sanders, or even Valiente would pass the test? Laurie Cabot in Salem certainly wouldn't - she tends to wear the black robes, heavy eye makeup, and flashy jewelry all the time from what I've seen of her. And I respect her, as it takes a lot of guts to live so openly as she wishes.

"An it harm none, do what you will" is a Wiccan guideline acknowledged by many. Some people will hate us no matter what we look like. Letting others decide for themselves how open they want to be about their religion, how they want to express themselves, whether they want to use labels like "witch" or "Wiccan" or whatever (so long as they're not claiming specific titles without earning them), and what exactly they want to do with their religious lives is one of the greatest strengths of our path, in my humble opinion.

[LadyV]

I hope what I am doing is not against board policy...but I just wanted to direct you to thread about exactly what I was talking about..
http://www.amystickalgrove.com/dcforum/DCForumID43/56.html

If is again't the rules here...it'll just get deleted.....

[Theres]

ya know, i've been a practicing witch for 27 years, the past 10 as a Wiccan, and all i can say is that this has always been a fact of life. if it seems moreso now, blame the internet.
but to sit back and declare YOUR path valid, while discounting everyone else's as superficial sounds more like arrogance to me than legitimate experience.
as far as the trappings of the craft, i don't see where wearing black, pentacles, or anything else witchy is any more outrageous than calling yourself 'Lady So-and-so' or 'Lord Mucky-muck'.

if you have a problem with the wannabes, do what i do... IGNORE THEM! they'll go away as soon as the next fad comes along.

[PeleRising]

Originally posted by Ben Gruagach
Some people have said that the word witch means "wise one," but that is a recent attempt to give it a positive spin. Etymologists (who study word origins) tend to point to links with the word "wicker" and "willow" as being related, and say that witch means "one who bends" as in bends things to their purposes or goals.

My take on the wicker/willow angle is not one that bends things to their purposes or goals... but in fact one who bends with the times. One who is able to adjust and survive whatever the condition. I would never consider bending another to my will... instead ... i accept the light and the dark... the happy and the sad... because with all of life there is balance... and i must be able to work with-in that balance as opposed to bending it to my desires. Of course that is just my opinion... :)

[PeleRising]

Originally posted by ShadowStorm

I understand the word "heathen" to mean "godless" or one who does not believe in any type of god.



I believe "heathens" meant those from the heaths... as pagans meant those from the countryside... and to the early Christians they would have appeared godless or merely superstitious ... but only because they didnt worship the Christian's God. :) IMHO anyways....

[Ben Gruagach]

Originally posted by rainn_hawk

My take on the wicker/willow angle is not one that bends things to their purposes or goals... but in fact one who bends with the times. One who is able to adjust and survive whatever the condition. I would never consider bending another to my will... instead ... i accept the light and the dark... the happy and the sad... because with all of life there is balance... and i must be able to work with-in that balance as opposed to bending it to my desires. Of course that is just my opinion... :)

Personally, I don't see the idea of "bending things to one's will" as necessarily a bad thing. When I tie my shoes I'm bending physical reality to my will to get those darned shoes fastened to my feet. When I cook I'm bending reality to my will to transform a collection of ingredients into what I hope will be a delicious dish for me to share with my sweetheart.

When it comes to using magick to bend forces or events to my will, the ethics I use revolve around the Wiccan Rede (which I see as a guideline, not a commandment) to "harm none" if possible, and also the question whether it would be wrong to do whatever by mundane means rather than magickal means. If I'd consider the goal wrong if I did it by mundane means then it's also wrong to do it by magickal means. If it's not wrong to do it by mundane means then I don't think it's wrong to attempt it by magickal means either.

So to me, the idea that the word witch might be associated with the word willow, wicker, and bending isn't a bad thing at all.

One last example of bending things to my will: when I got my cat Bub I made a point of giving him cat food I felt he'd like, along with cat treats, toys, and lots of attention to help encourage him to like me. It's worked. I've had Bub with me now for thirteen years, and he is definitely fond of me --- everyone who sees Bub comments on how attached he is to me. Did I "bend him to my will?" Yes, I did. I didn't force him to like me, any more than I force my human friends to like me. But my conscious decision to do things to encourage him to like me is a very willful thing to do.

And to me, conscious manipulation of forces, circumstances, and reality (as much as I am able) is what magick is all about to me, and what being a witch is about.

Just my opinion, of course.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by rainn_hawk

I believe "heathens" meant those from the heaths... as pagans meant those from the countryside... and to the early Christians they would have appeared godless or merely superstitious ... but only because they didnt worship the Christian's God.

If you read back a page or two I posted about that, and why heathen has come to be somewhat synonymous with barbarian to some people.

[PeleRising]

Originally posted by Raevyn

If you read back a page or two I posted about that, and why heathen has come to be somewhat synonymous with barbarian to some people.

Sorry.... I read several posts about heathens being equated with Asatru (sp?) I must have missed yours... my apologies!

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by rainn_hawk

Sorry.... I read several posts about heathens being equated with Asatru (sp?) I must have missed yours... my apologies!

No worries, I was more or less saying "yeah I agree".

[VelvetBlade]

ok, I need to vent!! I belong to a zillion yahoo groups, on a zillion different topics. I'm really getting frustrated with the interchangability (wow is that a word?) of WICCAN and WITCH. I personally do not believe that the terms mean the same thing. Am I wrong in this belief? Wiccan (from what I understand) is a religion...witchcraft is not..it is a craft, a way of life.
But....
Can a witch invoke gods/goddesses when doing spellwork..and if so, does that mean "worship", and in turn, would witchraft then be a religion? IS there actually a religion called "Witchcraft" and a way of life called "witchcraft"?
If I feel someone has hurt me or my family or anyone else, for that matter...I will pull everything out of my bag of tricks to use against you...aggressively...the old...rip of your head and spit down your neck theory. If a wicca were to do the same, given their having to follow the "rede"....would that in turn make them a witch? And then what happens to their religious aspects of it?

Ughhh...I'd like to say I feel better now...but I really don't..lol

~AW

[Aidron]

My reason for using it is quite simple:

I adore the word.

I need no other reason.

Technically, I am pagan, and do have strong wiccan influences, but referring to myself as either simply makes me cringe, especially wiccan since I denounce quite a few of their beliefs.

I scoff at anyone who refers to all wiccans as witches or vise versa. In fact, it irritates me so much that I shunned Wicca for a long time. Don't get me wrong, if that's what you care for, fine, but it's just not me. I've never been one to look to any organized religion, Wicca or Christianity and let it determine my beliefs in any way, shape, or form, and since I prefer to make my own religion, I cannot truly be affiliated with any.

Witchcraft, from my view point, is the practice and study of magick. It has no built in religious structure, though many claim it does. Religion to me comes from things such as Wicca or Native American spirituality, or whatever.

Witch is a broad term and can be used to group many people. While one person may be a strict Wiccan, the other may have satanic influences (like me). It's essentially like labeling yourself a Christian. How many denomations are there? Right... too many to count. It has become an umbrella term.

Pagan sounds too earthy and PETA lovin'. Nature is fine and dandy, but I'm definitely not a nature person and I have serious issues with PETA, but I digress.

The word witch to me evokes mystery, magick, mysticism, wisdom, and a surreal fantasy type word almost.

For those who are bothered by the word, that is simply a discussion of censorship. I find it absolutely ridiculous to let a word be so offensive and convey so much power over you that you shun it. Whether you do or don't though in the end, it does not matter, the word will still exist, so you have to deal with it. If people cannot get past the word, then I see it as a test, they are not ready to embrace things with an open mind, which saves me the trouble of having to discuss intellectual things with less than intellectual people.

[Pesha]

This is how I see it... I studied under Scott Cunningham. I am wiccan but I am a witch. I have learned and practiced witchcraft since age of 19yrs. I am a 3rd degree witch. Gerald Gardener is but one of many who brought into the modern world the old relgion and there are now so many trads followed it is hard to keep up. But I am a witch ...that is me, solitary, wiccan, witch, healer....I am who I am.

BB
DS.

[serenarian]

I do call myself a Witch. I am a Pagan and I practice magick as well as basing my beliefs on the Old Ways. However I embrace the modern expression of them in the Wiccan Way as well.

And I call myself Witch because I like the word. Yes, it has sometimes negative connotations, but I feel that rejecting the word is somewhat symbolic of rejecting the past. Whether we like it or not the Burning Times is part of the history of the Craft, and I believe that rejecting the word because of its connotations would be wrong. No offence to anyone who doesn't use the word, this is just my personal opinion.

But as I mentioned earlier, my beliefs aren't really equated to any tradition, although Wicca was the window. I believe what I believe. I am what I am. That's enough for me. :D

[Hawk Shadowsoul]

For those who are bothered by the word, that is simply a discussion of censorship. I find it absolutely ridiculous to let a word be so offensive and convey so much power over you that you shun it. Whether you do or don't though in the end, it does not matter, the word will still exist, so you have to deal with it. If people cannot get past the word, then I see it as a test, they are not ready to embrace things with an open mind, which saves me the trouble of having to discuss intellectual things with less than intellectual people.
I agree. I have a foot lightly on the Wiccan path, one foot firmly on a compilation of Native American path, and both feet very firmly on witchcraft. There is the power and denial of it is an exercise in futility. I believe a witch has or can learn to touch this power.
MISQUOTE: " A rose by any other name still smells the same." You may quote me if it pleases you.

[CelestiaSynth]

I am Wiccan and I am a Witch. So I suppose I should call myself a Wiccan Witch or a Witchy Wicca or something similar. When I'm asked about my path, I tend to use the word Wiccan
because I do seperate Wicca and Witchcraft as a religion and craft. However, if I am asked what I practice ( or what I do, as opposed to what I believe ), I'll address myself as a Witch.
My personal definiton of a Witch ( or witch ), is someone who raises, directs, or calls upon natural energies to manifest a goal and/or bring about change. I'd like to add that I agree also Raven. Words, by themselves, have not power or influence. They were created by us, meaning human beings, and we are the ones who give them their power and let them influence us. The word "witch" only has negative understandings of it because for so long that type of energy has been put into the use of the word. The only way that will change is if a positive message and influence is placed on the world and presented to the mass populus who only recognize it in a streotypical fashion. And being afraid to call yourself a "witch" if indeed you are, IMO, won't help such a cause at all be because, if you, who are personally related to this practice doesn't even want to express yourself as this, then why would someone who knows little about care about changing their perspective of something they fear?

[Aidron]

I am Wiccan and I am a Witch. So I suppose I should call myself a Wiccan Witch or a Witchy Wicca or something similar. When I'm asked about my path, I tend to use the word Wiccan
because I do seperate Wicca and Witchcraft as a religion and craft. However, if I am asked what I practice ( or what I do, as opposed to what I believe ), I'll address myself as a Witch.
My personal definiton of a Witch ( or witch ), is someone who raises, directs, or calls upon natural energies to manifest a goal and/or bring about change. I'd like to add that I agree also Raven. Words, by themselves, have not power or influence. They were created by us, meaning human beings, and we are the ones who give them their power and let them influence us. The word "witch" only has negative understandings of it because for so long that type of energy has been put into the use of the word. The only way that will change is if a positive message and influence is placed on the world and presented to the mass populus who only recognize it in a streotypical fashion. And being afraid to call yourself a "witch" if indeed you are, IMO, won't help such a cause at all be because, if you, who are personally related to this practice doesn't even want to express yourself as this, then why would someone who knows little about care about changing their perspective of something they fear?


Let me go ahead and clarify myself, since I have come across apparently incorrectly.

I believe words 'do' have power, and hence, you should be careful what you say. I'm not saying to sugar coat what you speak, but put thought into what you speak. Your words can uplift someone or crush them, and the same goes for yourself. What you say can have a tremendous affect on you without you even realizing it. Positive affirmations? Mmhmm. There are negative ones too.

What I intended to get across, however, was that we should not cower over every word and attempt to banish them from the universal unconciousness simply because they do not sit well with us. I doubt anyone who is strongly bothered by a word would put in this effort, but if a word does bother you, meditate on it and decipher exactly why it does.

It's very much like recycling. Why throw something away when it can be used once again? The same goes for words. Why discard them, censor our language, and give sway to those words? Create new associations for the word in a positive manner, and throw out the negative. There is no sense in discarding anything what so ever, even a word, when it can merely be recycled and given new life. The same is true of the word witch. If we were to discard it, not only would the negative association remain, but the negativity surrounding the word would build up simply due to the fact that we refuse to confront it. Eventually the word would become an all out taboo, showing that we let the word get the best of us and took no action to solve the actual problem in a sensible manner.

[Ben Trismegistus]

ok, I need to vent!! I belong to a zillion yahoo groups, on a zillion different topics. I'm really getting frustrated with the interchangability (wow is that a word?) of WICCAN and WITCH. I personally do not believe that the terms mean the same thing. Am I wrong in this belief? Wiccan (from what I understand) is a religion...witchcraft is not..it is a craft, a way of life.
To answer your question: Yes, this bothers me too. However, I'm a little more forgiving about the lapses mainly because when Gerald Gardner originally pieced together Wicca, he (erroneously) called it Witchcraft. The two terms were synonymous for a while, until someone thought (I wonder who?) that it would be best to separate them, to distinguish the religious practice from the magical craft, since they are not mutually inclusive.

Many modern pagan authors (Silver Ravenwolf springs to mind) still insists that there's no difference between Witch & Wiccan. In this day and age, she should know better.


Can a witch invoke gods/goddesses when doing spellwork..and if so, does that mean "worship", and in turn, would witchraft then be a religion? IS there actually a religion called "Witchcraft" and a way of life called "witchcraft"?
No, there's no religion called "witchcraft". But that doesn't mean that witches are irreligious. If a witch invokes gods/goddesses as part of his/her practice (but is not a Wiccan or part of another spiritual tradition), I'd simply call that witch a Pagan Witch -- "pagan" being the spirituality and "witch" being the magical craft. Does that make sense?


If I feel someone has hurt me or my family or anyone else, for that matter...I will pull everything out of my bag of tricks to use against you...aggressively...the old...rip of your head and spit down your neck theory. If a wicca were to do the same, given their having to follow the "rede"....would that in turn make them a witch? And then what happens to their religious aspects of it?
Any Wiccan who does *anything* magical or relating to witchcraft (even something like casting a circle or creating a talisman) is a witch. You don't have to curse someone to be a witch. And for that matter, you don't have to pledge blind allegiance to the Rede in order to be a Wiccan. I certainly don't.

[Aidron]

ok, I need to vent!! I belong to a zillion yahoo groups, on a zillion different topics. I'm really getting frustrated with the interchangability (wow is that a word?) of WICCAN and WITCH. I personally do not believe that the terms mean the same thing. Am I wrong in this belief? Wiccan (from what I understand) is a religion...witchcraft is not..it is a craft, a way of life.
But....
Can a witch invoke gods/goddesses when doing spellwork..and if so, does that mean "worship", and in turn, would witchraft then be a religion? IS there actually a religion called "Witchcraft" and a way of life called "witchcraft"?
If I feel someone has hurt me or my family or anyone else, for that matter...I will pull everything out of my bag of tricks to use against you...aggressively...the old...rip of your head and spit down your neck theory. If a wicca were to do the same, given their having to follow the "rede"....would that in turn make them a witch? And then what happens to their religious aspects of it?

Ughhh...I'd like to say I feel better now...but I really don't..lol

~AW


I'm a bit less irritated by this, but I completely understand. It reminds me of a quote from Charlotte off Sex and the City.

"I'm very into labels. Gay, straight, pick a side and stay there."

Labels have their place, despite how many of us despise them. If someone refers (notice I did not say is a self-proclaimed, that phrase peeves me) them as a witch, I know the following:

A.) They are generalizing and not as well informed as they should be. Many wiccans do this, especially those new to the path, and feel that all wiccans are witches and anyone who is not a wiccan, is not truly a witch.

B.) They are wiccan and feel comfortable with the title of witch as opposed to wiccan, or perhaps they even interchange the two at their leisure.

C.) They follow a path outside of wicca, such as Strega witchcraft.

D.) They are eclectic, such as me, and may incooperate many practices from various paths into their own unique style.


I have never viewed witchcraft as an actual religion. A religion comes with a built in doctrine (set of things that are no-no's and that get you brownie points). It comes with its own philosophy and approach to life.

The word 'witch' to most cultures relates to a woman or man of wisdom, who posesses healing powers, divination methods, and is generally the proverbial shaman of that tribe, clan, etc. So this has always lead me to believe withcraft is exactly that, a craft relating to all the above, plus more.

I wouldn't last two days in the wiccan path. I'm not the turn the other cheek type of person. I often will take the high road, perhaps out of laziness, or perhaps out of enlightenment. You never know though, you could push the wrong buttons and then I make no promises and will have no regrets over what I do to you. It's the same as my philosophy on fighting. I will not throw the first punch (or kick in most cases with me), but do not expect mercy from me if you do. I won't stop. I'm just that nasty and hateful. Of course, working with negativity is rarely positive, but that's not what I speak of and I digress, anyhow.

Witchcraft does not require religion to work in my opinion, but I believe most who do delve into witchcraft, and in this sense I include shamanism, druidism, etc. will sooner or later grow to develop their own spiritual beliefs and inclinations. The proof is in the (barf) pudding, per se, and when you see magick work, experience it, feel it, and live it you will simply begin to believe in things, whatever those things may be . If not, your mind is most likely closed.

My 'religion' is very personal to me, and as with almost everything, I do what I wish, believe how I wish, and generally tend to keep it to myself. It's mine, I don't need anyone to validate it or to share it with. The 'craft', however I am more than willing to share. I don't mind discussing vairous practices. Perhaps someone else has a better method for doing things, or a recipe I never thought of.

For me it's all about achieving the perfect balance of keeping religion and magick seperate to a point, and yet melding them into one at the same time. Confusing, I know, but it works for me.