Why does it have to be all about the Goddesses? What happened to the Gods?

[aluokaloo]

Pagan music can be lovely frrom Moving Breath to Lisa Thiel to Kellianna, but it is soooo lopsided. the fee references to male deities are usually very generic, the Horned One or Father Sun for every ten songs about Gaia, Kali Ma and Demeter. Pagans are *supposed* to have a good sense of balance. (yes i know i'm generalizing) Why aren't the guys getting their due as well?

[brymble]

Because Goddesses are more saleable right now, duh. God has been over-marketed, and nobody's buying him anymore.

[aluokaloo]

YHWH and Jesus maybe. But not Zeus or Quetzlcoatl or Daikoku

[realityeater]

For me, worship of the God comes a lot harder than worship of the Goddess. A lot of it has to do with the fact that I've broken from a long and painful lifetime of Christianity and having an image of what God should be in my mind for so long, that even after a few years of practicing my craft I still struggle with the God. The lover, brother, hunter, friend aspect of Him comes as something of a total reversal from what I was taught, and the resentment I carry makes it hard to believe Him even when I'm being sincere. Perhaps the reason that most worship is directed at the Goddess is for similar reasons; others like myself can't wrap our heads around it and so stay shy of it for a while. It doesn't make it right, persay, but emotions and past difficulties have heavy influences over people when they might not even realize it.

[aluokaloo]

@RealityEater-alright but that seems a little off to me. for example say when you were in school, some of the girls (this is hypothetical mind you) treated you like complete and utter crap. would you shun ALL possibility of friendship with girls, because of a few catty little twits? hell if that were the case, i wouldn't have many friends. i'm not trying to tell anyone what to do mind you, i'm just pointing out that a relationship with deities shouldn't be about gender only, it should be based on personal experiences, just like with real people why not judge on their merit and personality rather than what you hear? that's my 2 cents for what it's worth :)


and plenty of pagans worship male and female deities alike, just like plenty of people have friends and accquaintances with chicks and dudes

[brymble]

I think reducing gods and goddesses to human reproductive gender roles is a little narrow, anyway.

[aluokaloo]

same here

[Lavender Rainflower]

I know for me it hard to connect with a god because of growing up in religious schools; I dont think people understand the amount of fear and self loathing that can happen when raised in a religious path that doesn't fit you. i remember being 6 or 7 and knowing i was going to hell because God didn't love me; i was different then everyone else around me. so when i found my new path and the goddess its was so loving that its still hard for me to go to a God.

[realityeater]

alright but that seems a little off to me. for example say when you were in school, some of the girls (this is hypothetical mind you) treated you like complete and utter crap. would you shun ALL possibility of friendship with girls, because of a few catty little twits?

I would reference Lavender Rainflower's post. There is a difference between being pushed aside by some girls and being taught that the male form of divinity is constantly watching for you to mess up so that he can punish you. The former is annoying, damaging to your self-esteem, and something to be overcome. The later causes severe emotional trauma. It might sound dramatic, but being on your knees night after night praying to a god that does not hear you tends to instill negative connotations from a relatively early age.

Again, I don't mean to insinuate that it makes it alright, or fair, simply that the human mind tends to go directions it doesn't even realize that it can. Many people will do things without understanding the reason, or without realizing they're doing it.

At any rate, it's only my opinion on the subject.

[Louisvillian]

To me, the whole "well, the god has had overexposure due to Christianity" thing just doesn't fly. There is a qualitative difference between the Christian (or other monotheistic) notion of a masculine god, and a polytheistic notion of a masculine god. It's not remotely comparable, and pretending that it is constitutes a major amount of arrogance, by imposing one's own religious views into the views of another.

To answer the OP's question: I blame feminists, partly. And not the sane, rational, "women should be equal" kind. No, I mean the insane, women-supremacist, "PENIS BAD" kind. They seem to have picked neopaganism as their new spawning ground, and it's pushed the veneration of masculine deities further away from the norm. Which irks me on a personal level, since that's part The Cancer That Is Killing /W/, if I may use a 4chan-related euphemism; if a religion is predicated on the balance of masculine and feminine forces, it seems like a silly idea to exaggerate the feminine. Especially since, as I pointed out my first paragraph, it's completely unnecessary.

[Gaudior]

To me, the whole "well, the god has had overexposure due to Christianity" thing just doesn't fly.


I agree with you, but I have seem some pagans and wiccans use that very excuse "I joined for the Goddess, not the God!" "Christianity has overemphisized the God, so I worship the Goddess instead." Like you said, the Christian God and the Wiccan God...or many of the pagan Gods, really, are different.

[aluokaloo]

I would reference Lavender Rainflower's post. There is a difference between being pushed aside by some girls and being taught that the male form of divinity is constantly watching for you to mess up so that he can punish you. The former is annoying, damaging to your self-esteem, and something to be overcome. The later causes severe emotional trauma. It might sound dramatic, but being on your knees night after night praying to a god that does not hear you tends to instill negative connotations from a relatively early age.

Again, I don't mean to insinuate that it makes it alright, or fair, simply that the human mind tends to go directions it doesn't even realize that it can. Many people will do things without understanding the reason, or without realizing they're doing it.

At any rate, it's only my opinion on the subject.



perhaps it wasn't the best comparison, but, my point was still the same, it's ridiculous to believe that because of a bad experience that everyone is the same without compromise. besides, wouldn't the problem be with pushy and/or fanatic followers rather then the deity or the religion itself?

[Tiberias]

I think it's a result of a number of reasons, some of them closely related, others not so much. For a start, there's certainly a large element of radical feminism playing a role - just take a look at Dianic Wicca. But with radical feminism (at least according to the radical feminists) dying out fairly rapidly in the last couple of decades, I'm not sure how much of a role that's playing with newcomers. And of course, many radical feminist pagan authors still have introductory books in circulation for new readers to pick up as their first exposure to paganism, which will tend to have some effect on their religious development.

For people who grew up after the real explosion of radical feminism, I suspect (based on listening to people here and in the broader pagan community) that the vast majority of it has to do with unresolved childhood issues, which could take several distinct forms. Some people undeniably did have traumatic religious upbringings in one of the big monotheistic faiths and, as some have suggested, just can't bring themselves to deal with a male god for the moment. Others (and I would suggest a far greater number) are blaming other, unrelated, childhood trauma on early exposure to Abrahamic religion because that's something they find easier to confront than poor parents, for instance. Still others have never snapped out of their angsty teenage rebellion phase - I know I've certainly run into plenty of pagans in their thirties and forties who still haven't realized that it's time to grow up and stop doing whatever mom and dad will hate for that reason alone. And still more feel the distinct need to fit in, which means that suddenly they convince themselves that they TOO had traumatic visits to Church, etc. At this point, claiming to have been oppressed by Christian parents and teachers is practically the equivalent of a union card for pagans. And for whatever reason, the simplest way to be un-Abrahamic is to worship a goddess.

And of course there are always those that just connect more closely with goddesses. This is probably the minority, since I find it hard to believe that the seemingly clear (or at least more vocal) majority of pagans simply feel closer to one gender of deity to the other without any of the other above factors playing into it.

[Louisvillian]

I agree with you, but I have seem some pagans and wiccans use that very excuse
Then those people are stupid, irrational, or immature; and thus shouldn't be taken seriously. :toofless:

[realityeater]

To me, the whole "well, the god has had overexposure due to Christianity" thing just doesn't fly. There is a qualitative difference between the Christian (or other monotheistic) notion of a masculine god, and a polytheistic notion of a masculine god. It's not remotely comparable, and pretending that it is constitutes a major amount of arrogance, by imposing one's own religious views into the views of another.

I would agree with you that they are not similar. I've said many times that these are my personal experiences and a personal reason as to why I have problems, and mused that it is not unthinkable that others may have had these experiences as well. While I know in my head that the God I now worship is altogether different from the God I worshiped as a child, my heart has yet to get with the program.


perhaps it wasn't the best comparison, but, my point was still the same, it's ridiculous to believe that because of a bad experience that everyone is the same without compromise. besides, wouldn't the problem be with pushy and/or fanatic followers rather then the deity or the religion itself?

I think one would have to know the full story, not something I am rightly capable of divulging on a message board for all to see, before understanding quite how deep the scars from being raised as a Christian are (in my personal experience, mind you). However, you are quite right that the fault is in the ones who push the beliefs I was taught, and that the Christian God is not to blame. Again, I'm not suggesting that this is the reason that everyone with a difficulty connecting to the God has, however I don't believe that it would be too far fetched to suppose that there are others in my situation.


Some people undeniably did have traumatic religious upbringings in one of the big monotheistic faiths and, as some have suggested, just can't bring themselves to deal with a male god for the moment. Others (and I would suggest a far greater number) are blaming other, unrelated, childhood trauma on early exposure to Abrahamic religion because that's something they find easier to confront than poor parents, for instance. Still others have never snapped out of their angsty teenage rebellion phase - I know I've certainly run into plenty of pagans in their thirties and forties who still haven't realized that it's time to grow up and stop doing whatever mom and dad will hate for that reason alone. And still more feel the distinct need to fit in, which means that suddenly they convince themselves that they TOO had traumatic visits to Church, etc. At this point, claiming to have been oppressed by Christian parents and teachers is practically the equivalent of a union card for pagans. And for whatever reason, the simplest way to be un-Abrahamic is to worship a goddess.

And of course there are always those that just connect more closely with goddesses. This is probably the minority, since I find it hard to believe that the seemingly clear (or at least more vocal) majority of pagans simply feel closer to one gender of deity to the other without any of the other above factors playing into it.

I would agree with you on all points. There are many reasons, not all of them valid, but reasons all the same. Thank you for expressing them better than I seem to be doing :P

[EntwinedScylla]

To view this from the angle of Mass-market Neo-Wicca (what you find in most book-stores, the 101 market...etc):

The Goddess is about love, life, joy, spring, bunnies, colorful eggs, bountiful harvests, eternal life and unending cycles.

On the flipside, The God is about Death and What Lies Beyond. He's the hoof and horn, the wild green, the mad howling, the rending of soul from body, and the sweet rest of death. That's - er... challenging. And most people don't like to be challenged.

Which is less threatening, less demanding for those looking for a faith of lay-worship, rather than pursuing a priesthood? The Goddess.

YMMV, but that's my take on it.

[Gaudior]

Then those people are stupid, irrational, or immature; and thus shouldn't be taken seriously.


lol! Yeah :weirdsmil

This reminds me of a feminist blog I saw that stated, "we need to switch to the Goddess! Male Gods are dangerous!"

Because, you know, Goddesses like The Cannanite Anat are just misunderstood sweetie pies.

[brymble]

To view this from the angle of Mass-market Neo-Wicca (what you find in most book-stores, the 101 market...etc):

The Goddess is about love, life, joy, spring, bunnies, colorful eggs, bountiful harvests, eternal life and unending cycles.

On the flipside, The God is about Death and What Lies Beyond. He's the hoof and horn, the wild green, the mad howling, the rending of soul from body, and the sweet rest of death. That's - er... challenging. And most people don't like to be challenged.

Which is less threatening, less demanding for those looking for a faith of lay-worship, rather than pursuing a priesthood? The Goddess.

YMMV, but that's my take on it.

I think in part, it does come down to marketing.

Just saying, I really did experience an abusive religious environment. And I found in time (ok a lot of time) that confronting & making peace with my feelings, my father, his madness, his god, and mine was, if certainly not at all easier, then without a doubt more fulfilling than running away, sticking my fingers in my ears, and singing "LA LA LA WE LOVE THE GODDESS" at the top of my voice to drown out the painful multi-faceted realities of my present and past.

[aluokaloo]

To view this from the angle of Mass-market Neo-Wicca (what you find in most book-stores, the 101 market...etc):

The Goddess is about love, life, joy, spring, bunnies, colorful eggs, bountiful harvests, eternal life and unending cycles.

On the flipside, The God is about Death and What Lies Beyond. He's the hoof and horn, the wild green, the mad howling, the rending of soul from body, and the sweet rest of death. That's - er... challenging. And most people don't like to be challenged.

Which is less threatening, less demanding for those looking for a faith of lay-worship, rather than pursuing a priesthood? The Goddess.

YMMV, but that's my take on it.


then those people never realized that some Goddesses can be scary as hell!

[EntwinedScylla]

then those people never realized that some Goddesses can be scary as hell!

As Brymble said - It's about marketing. Specifically, (IMO) marketing to people who want to be spoon-fed. "Scary" goddesses won't sell well, unless you're selling a book to people into heavy eyeliner and loud music, and that's a small niche. It's silly, but it's an unfortunate fact.

Goddesses like Sekhmet and T.M. getting re-written to be loving, gentle, mother-deities is sickening. But people will do a lot of sickening things to turn a buck.

I've been reading through a plethora of "Wicca 101" type books lately to get a better bead on what the kids are getting into these days, and it literally gave me a headache (and an eye-lid twitch). Phrases like "If you ever feel fear, or like you're being challenged to do something uncomfortable it's not a god/dess, it's a demon! Banish it from your life!" - UM WHAT?!

Why bother having a religion if it does nothing beyond being an ornament? But that is what it comes down to. People want something easy, unchallenged, gentle and totally void of anything that might make them think - and if you wanna make a buck, that's what you sell to them.

The Gods are alive, male and female alike they are alive, beyond gender, beyond race, beyond species, they are ALIVE. They are, IMO, LIFE. Life is scary, life is painful, life challenges your pre-conceptions, your fears, and your shortcomings. Meeting them as they are, not as you want them to be, is the only way to have a relationship with them.

On the topic of Gods.. well... I'm female.

We have our own trials, and Mysteries, as it were. Unfortunately, a lot of those Mysteries are about men doing things we don't appreciate, and our in/ability to stop it.

We're put under a lot of pressures related to being female, kept at a dual standard of "slut or mother", that is often uncomfortable and difficult to break out of (without becoming "one of the guys"... though, I've always rather liked being one of the guys). For some, the idea of a female figure who's very, very, very, girly... but ultimately controls -everything- is a powerful idea.

The idea that her male counterpart is little more than a "consort", who dies every year and is exchanged for a new model - well, equally appealing to those who've had a bad go of it.

It's psychology, and that is a sticky area. For every time someone has told me "smile more", "look pretty", "get a boob job, it's more professional", "don't look clients in the eyes and use a limp handshake, strong women scare people", "you should wear heels, they make your butt look better", "You could do with some makeup", "women are made to raise babies, you should have a few."... etc. There's a guy who won't say those things, -will- look me in the eye, and only cares exactly enough about my boobs.

Thankfully, I think that most godforms don't care about our boobs*, or us conforming to social or societal roles, don't care how we look as long as we let the inner light shine out ("and as a sign that you are truly free, be naked in your rites!"), and come to them in honest seeking. Male, and Female alike.

* Baron Samedi is the exception. Say what you will on the topic, the Lwa likes a "healthy woman". I've heard it said more than once he prefers to be horsed by well-endowed women, even over suitable male candidates just so he can - er... get acquainted with their frontal lobes (so to speak).

[brymble]

then those people never realized that some Goddesses can be scary as hell!

True that. After my house burned, I just left the ash all over the statue of Kali that we pulled out of the ruins. I figured it was the offering she "demanded", so it was hers!

[aluokaloo]

True that. After my house burned, I just left the ash all over the statue of Kali that we pulled out of the ruins. I figured it was the offering she "demanded", so it was hers!

aye yi yi! at least you don't live by a volcano or something.

[brymble]

aye yi yi! at least you don't live by a volcano or something.

Well my son's almost a teenager. Close enough.:aburst:

[WildThing]

Well for me...the female aspect of the divine spoke to me first.
Growing up I tried very hard to talk to christianity's God, to fit the whole christian thing, and I got...basically, judgement and DEAFENING silence.

The Goddess called, shouted, demanded my attention...and it's not easy for me at all working with cosmic powers. I feel awkward, shy, unworthy alot of the time...and this is bad, but something I'm growing and working my way out of. There are a few Gods who've had a thing or two to say as well...but I feel like they'd rather I sought them out. I simply don't feel ready. I was awful slow in answering the Goddess, too (years). And I figure there's nothing wrong with babysteps so long as I'm paying attention.

I'm not so easygoing with spirituality as I know some can be. My HUMAN relationships have been somewhat traumatic and unhealthy so there's still some "Aaahhh" nervousness when I'm dealing with the divine. I love and trust the deities I work with, but that doesn't take away what's going on with my psychology. It's a process, I'm trying, I'm working on it.

Perhaps my patron's consort, Dumuzi will be what nudges me out of my comfort zone next -- I really don't know.

[petrus4]

Female chauvanism is fashionable at the moment, although it isn't politically correct to say that. You're meant to talk about, "embracing the divine feminine," or some similar euphemism; but female chauvanism is truthfully what it is. Watch the feminist responses of, "well, that's ok, because it's about time, anyway!" that this statement will very predictably (and quickly) get, as well.

Equilibrium would be nice, but that would require maturity on both sides...and we all know that that's never going to happen. ;)

The pendulum will probably swing back again at some point, but we can hope that not too many people end up dying to bring that about; or that said reversal involves a return to patriarchic excess, either; which isn't in anybody's best interests, including those of men themselves.

[mountainpeace]

because this society is dominated by patriarchal god religion and

people are looking for the natural solace of the ancient religion of worshipping the Mother nurturing essence of the Goddess!!!!

[Tiberias]

the natural solace of the ancient religion of worshipping the Mother nurturing essence of the Goddess!!!!

By "ancient religion", would it be safe to assume you're referring to the 19th and early 20th century myth of a pre-agricultural Goddess Cult?

[Gaudior]

people are looking for the natural solace of the ancient religion of worshipping the Mother nurturing essence of the Goddess!!!!


And there are nurturing Goddesses, but not all of them are. Sometimes, the Goddesses are worse and crueler than the Gods. And anyhow, the Gods can be loving and nurturing. Gender has nothing to do with it.

[RoseKitten]

because this society is dominated by patriarchal god religion and



I'm quite happy with having both my god and goddesses. There's no reason to put one down.




people are looking for the natural solace of the ancient religion of worshipping the Mother nurturing essence of the Goddess!!!!

Which "ancient" religion would that be? Or are you referring to the one that never *actually* existed?


the Gods can be loving and nurturing. Gender has nothing to do with it.

QFT

[Louisvillian]

because this society is dominated by patriarchal god religion and
Modern society, patriarchal? Ha. Haha. Wait a moment while I laugh my balls off.
Furthermore, monotheistic religions have an entirely different conception of god and deity than polytheistic religions. It's not even remotely comparable, and I have pointed that out earlier in this thread.


people are looking for the natural solace of the ancient religion of worshipping the Mother nurturing essence of the Goddess!!!!You mean the one that didn't exist, in any way, shape, or form? I mean, not only were ancient societies far more patriarchal than modern, or hell even mediaeval, society. There was never a "mother-nurturing The One Goddess" in any of these societies. Stop trying to impose this ultra-feminist claptrap on ancient history. It's insulting to them, and is insulting to historians.

[Gaudior]

Even if there was a matriarchy somewhere in history, who is to say it would have been a peaceful one?

Again, look at Goddesses like Sekhmet, Anat, and even the Goddess Pele, who is known for having a horrible temper and punishing those who steal from her home most severely.


"I believe in a God and a Goddess, But I only worship the Goddess because Christianity has so overemphasized the God."
The Wiccan God and the Christian God are very separate concepts. Speaking of the two as one in the same is absurd and insulting to both sides. The Wiccan God is one-half of a greater whole. Christians view their God as the supreme entity in itself. Moreover, Christians have not decided to ignore the Goddess out of spite. She does not exist in their world view. One cannot spite what does not exist. Therefore,basing your religious views and practices upon those of another religion makes no sense, and in this case leads us to do what we accuse Christianity of doing - rebuking one aspect of the whole, even though we acknowledge their existence. That is spite.
http://wicca.timerift.net/gods.shtml

[mountainpeace]

ancient is referred to as Goddess Worship being the first of all religions!

Goddess Worship predates god worship

read Restoring the Goddess by Barbara G Walker

the ancients (way back) didn't know that sperm produced life and only saw the female as the creator...
when they found out about sperm then came the myths of the numerous gods etc. into the picture

[Gaudior]

MountainPeace, can you provide some proof that Goddess worship predates God worship? That the ancients didn't know that sperm helped with the reproductive act? As for Barbara Walker, I can't comment on her, as I know little about her.

But otherwise, it simply sounds like the Matriarchy Myth that was debunked long ago.

[Agaliha]

MountainPeace, can you provide some proof that Goddess worship predates God worship? That the ancients didn't know that sperm helped with the reproductive act? As for Barbara Walker, I can't comment on her, as I know little about her.

But otherwise, it simply sounds like the Matriarchy Myth that was debunked long ago.

Well, I read her Wiki and it sounds interesting :2G:


Barbara G. Walker (born July 2, 1930, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania) is a U.S. author and feminist. She writes about religion, cultural anthropology, spirituality, and mythology from the viewpoint of Pre-Indo-European neolithic matriarchies. She often uses the imagery of the Mother Goddess to discuss these Neolithic Matriarchies. Her most important book is The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets (1983).

Barbara G. Walker describes herself as an atheist. In the book, The Skeptical Feminist: Discovering the Virgin, Mother, and Crone, she writes about her belief that there is no deity. However, she believes that people, and women in particular, can use the image of the Goddess in their day-to-day lives. Her book Woman's Rituals: A Sourcebook is an attempt to show how she puts her "meditation techniques" into practice, and is meant as a guide for other women to do the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_G._Walker

:hrmm:

Not someone I'd take an a source. But that's just me.

[Gaudior]

I see.

I think feminism is a wonderful thing, and I do have many Goddesses that I love dearly. But I see no reason to exclude the Gods, because they can be just as kind. I know that Shiva has always been very gentle and fatherly towards me, and I would not trade that relationship with Him for anything in the world.

http://wicca.timerift.net/matriarchal.shtml

^^^ I like this essay very much ^_^

[RoseKitten]

ancient is referred to as Goddess Worship being the first of all religions!

Goddess Worship predates god worship

read Restoring the Goddess by Barbara G Walker

the ancients (way back) didn't know that sperm produced life and only saw the female as the creator...
when they found out about sperm then came the myths of the numerous gods etc. into the picture

Made up stories are not facts. Can you provide actual evidence? What "ancient" culture are you referring to? If it's "so old nobody knows its name" then, well, we have no way of knowing who or what they worshiped.

Actually, the first civilization we know if was ruled by a male deity, not a female. While statues have been found that predate Sumer, at this point it is pure speculation as to what or who they represent.

[Tiberias]

ancient is referred to as Goddess Worship being the first of all religions!

Goddess Worship predates god worship

The only evidence I can think of that would securely posit a Goddess-oriented religion prior to God-oriented religion would be Mellaart's work at Catalhoyuk. Work that has been fairly thoroughly dismissed in light of Ian Hodder's later excavations.

[Tiberias]

Barbara Walker's degree is in journalism, by the way, and the majority of her books are on knitting, with the remainder addressing a wide variety of feminist issues. In other words, about as far from a reliable source on prehistoric spirituality as one can imagine.

[sari0009]

Pagan music can be lovely frrom Moving Breath to Lisa Thiel to Kellianna, but it is soooo lopsided. the fee references to male deities are usually very generic, the Horned One or Father Sun for every ten songs about Gaia, Kali Ma and Demeter. Pagans are *supposed* to have a good sense of balance. (yes i know i'm generalizing) Why aren't the guys getting their due as well?

I think it has something to do with learning new roles, definitions, parameters. Our societies and religions have been and still are so completely saturated with male-deity-only religions, with dualism instead of duality, with a very different understanding of "deity" and "worship" that people feel the need to react and flood the consciousness with things Goddess.

We're learning new parameters.

For example, at first, many still used more traditional sex roles/attributes to define "masculine" and "feminine" correspondences and deities. Our parameters now allow for male, female, and "other" deities. We've continue to explore and include more understandings and versions of these in varying contexts, some of them similar, some very different.

This doesn't mean, however, there isn't a need for balance, for male deities or other representations of the male divine/spirituality/figure while all this is going on. Writers like Isaac Bonewits, for example, addressed this in his book The Pagan Man.

But the need for that balance in one's personal life and/or worship isn't going to dampen all of the tremendous focus on the female divine. It should tweak it, but it's not going to quiet it all just yet. Not in a lot of corners of Paganism and art yet. There's a lot of work being done.

Of course, the individual is free to focus and work on what makes sense to them, what they connect with, their need to grow, experience, and so on. They don't necessarily need to mirror the greater patterns of focus and study out there.

[Fiamma]

ancient is referred to as Goddess Worship being the first of all religions!

Goddess Worship predates god worship

read Restoring the Goddess by Barbara G Walker

the ancients (way back) didn't know that sperm produced life and only saw the female as the creator...
when they found out about sperm then came the myths of the numerous gods etc. into the picture


How about read The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory: Why an Imagined Past Will Not Give Women a Future by Cynthia Eller.

[mountainpeace]

isn't it obvious that the ancients didn't know about sperm and therefore didn't see the male as any type of creator!!!!

while the women would grow and birth babies

the ancients had no way of knowing about sperm

and since no one can for sure say that Barbara G Walker is not a credible source I would suggest reading her book and studying up on the ancient religions

It is obvious that Goddess Worship predates god worship

the ancients saw the Mother as birthing and creating all life into existence!!!

[MonSno_LeeDra]

mountainpeace wrote: isn't it obvious that the ancients didn't know about sperm and therefore didn't see the male as any type of creator!!!!

Actually your logic is pretty faughty. Seeing as our earliest ancestors were hunter - gather groups the idea of fertility and cycles would have been real apparent to those that hunted for a livelyhood. The domestication of animals would also have been pretty apparent.


while the women would grow and birth babies

Even when anthropologist visit remote tribal groups they have a knowledge of birthing and how children are conceived. they again can see it in the animal kingdom and the fertility cycles of their prey, domesticated animals, etc.


the ancients had no way of knowing about sperm

Again a great assumption of what was or was not known. A hunter - gather society would have a greater association with the fertility cycles of the prey animals and domestic animals and when was the most likey time for them to conceive.


It is obvious that Goddess Worship predates god worship

Actually no its not. The archeology records do not support it one way or the other. At best there would be a female oriented support system something akin to the moonlodge riutals and ceremonies of the Native Americans. Equaly there would be rituals and ceremonies associated with the hunt and horned or forest gods.

Then their also would be no organized religious system until a surplus would be available to the community to allow for the development of skills other than those needed to survive.

What you are hyping is more of the psuedo history that had been presented and artifacts presumed to be for this or that and other items and artifacts ignored to support ones position.

[Secretsofthesoul]

I find with the Islamic beliefs that the women are barely there, which really doesn't surprise me (no offense). I tend to prefer the female deities over the males usually because they show that women are at least equal to men, sometimes higher. A lot of the Greek gods aren't exactly what you'd call faithful. Quite a few of the goddesses have been cheated on, at least in myth. Don't want to sound sexist, but it seems like the goddesses are the more...reliable? They also have variety. Like in men, not often there is a male with a 'feminine' duty. Aphrodite is the goddess of love, while Morrigan is the goddess of death and war, for example.

[Gaudior]

It is obvious that Goddess Worship predates god worship


You keep saying this, yet you offer no proof.



isn't it obvious that the ancients didn't know about sperm and therefore didn't see the male as any type of creator!!!!


No, it isn't obvious. It's actually a rather faulty statement, as stated in the post above.


and since no one can for sure say that Barbara G Walker is not a credible source I would suggest reading her book and studying up on the ancient religions


*shrug* Again, I can't comment on her, as I know nothing about her. But, I do know that the statements you are making are wrong and have been disproven long ago. Do a simple google search *shrugs once again*

For what it's worth, Catherine Breyer, the author of Wicca for the Rest of Us, does quote Barbara Walker in a critical manner in this article.

http://wicca.timerift.net/matriarchal.shtml

[RoseKitten]

isn't it obvious that the ancients didn't know about sperm and therefore didn't see the male as any type of creator!!!!



No, it's not. If they were smart enough to survive, they were smart enough to figure out that "hey, if I put this in here, we get young." It's biological, and natural, even if they didn't know the scientific facts behind it.




while the women would grow and birth babies



That's the way it still is...




and since no one can for sure say that Barbara G Walker is not a credible source I would suggest reading her book and studying up on the ancient religions



I *follow* an ancient religion. The first official one that we have any real record of. Care to tell me that I'm wrong, again? I suggest you take your own advice, and listen to the people who specilize in that filed. You know, historians, antropologists... and not just ones with titles or degrees, but ones that are respected.

If you want a wider view of who is respectable or not, go to yahoo groups and join: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DatePalmForum/

Aside from feminist junk, what real research have you done? You still haven't provided any proof.




It is obvious that Goddess Worship predates god worship



No. It is obvious that the first know civilizations were polytheistic, and that while individuals had patrons, that didn't make the entire culture matriarchal.



the ancients saw the Mother as birthing and creating all life into existence!!!

There was usually only a few of those in any given pantheon, some male, and some female. At least, in Sumerian culture.

Actually, I've found that some of the deities from Sumer are either male *or* female depending on the translation. I think it has something to do with the way their language is set up, but I'm not really sure.

[Gaudior]

they were smart enough to survive, they were smart enough to figure out that "hey, if I put this in here, we get young."


lawl.

[RoseKitten]

lawl.

:p

[Caelestis ♥ Raven]

Feminist Bashing.. _tsk_:flamer:

Anyways I think as others have stated it is just marketing and really has nothing to do with paganism or the deities in general.

Also while many people find it a stupid argument there are alot of people out there who do feel bashed over the head by the male deity in religions and so are attracted to the whole Goddess energy. So it may not be pagans but just those curious or looking for something different that first get attracted to that type of stuff.

Or maybe us crazy feminist Goddess only types just make and buy more music then the rest of you lol idk...

[Agaliha]

I think the problem many people have isn't necessarily with feminism, but with people revising history to fit a belief or idea that isn't accurate historically.

Personally, I don't care if people worship the Goddess (or goddesses) only. Or if they beleive in a monotheistic goddess instread of a god. It's the un-sourced, badly sourced and historically inaccurate claims that are my issue. And I think that's what a lot of the recent posts are about, the inaccurate history and claims being made.

[mountainpeace]

Feminist Bashing.. _tsk_:flamer:

there are alot of people out there who do feel bashed over the head by the male deity in religions and so are attracted to the whole Goddess energy. ...


I agree with this very much!!!!

As for me needing sources to back up what I say, actually Barbara G Walker uses many sources throughout her book and has a reference list at the back of the book so before throwing stones at me I would research this topic that in fact Goddess Worship was the first religion... it makes tons of sense since the ancients saw how much pain it was to create a life and how the female had to do this to bring forth the life!! the whole birthing process!!!

all this feminist bashing is uncalled for when the world is so extremely patriarchal even the monetary system we are all controlled by!!!!!!

[aluokaloo]

ancient is referred to as Goddess Worship being the first of all religions!

Goddess Worship predates god worship

read Restoring the Goddess by Barbara G Walker

the ancients (way back) didn't know that sperm produced life and only saw the female as the creator...
when they found out about sperm then came the myths of the numerous gods etc. into the picture

umm actually people have always worshipped both male and female deities in polytheistic religion and i'm fairly sure that even caveman were bright enough to figure out that "Happy Time" resulted in pregnancy sooner or later. that's a pretty natural instinct. it's one thing for the ancients to not know what eggs are, but sperm does come out of the body. c'mon. as stupid as people can be, they aren't quite that dumb.

[Gaudior]

all this feminist bashing is uncalled for when the world is so extremely patriarchal even the monetary system we are all controlled by!!!!!!


I'm not bashing feminism. I am a feminist myself. I am bashing revisionist history.

[Tiberias]

I agree with this very much!!!!

As for me needing sources to back up what I say, actually Barbara G Walker uses many sources throughout her book and has a reference list at the back of the book so before throwing stones at me I would research this topic that in fact Goddess Worship was the first religion... it makes tons of sense since the ancients saw how much pain it was to create a life and how the female had to do this to bring forth the life!! the whole birthing process!!!

Common sense and reality are not even remotely the same thing. The fact of the matter is that Barbara Walker is a two-bit hack who is NOT trained in history or archaeology and is perpetuating myths that date back to the Romantic movement. The primary evidence has been debunked time and time again by Ian Hodder and others (if you want a decent introduction to WHERE the myth came from and how and why it was formed, try Hutton's Triumph of the Moon). The Venus figurines are decontextualized and, archaeologically, more or less useless. Catalhuyuk's supposed matriarchy doesn't stand up to statistical analysis. And on and on. That Walker is perpetuating this nonsense suggests to me that she has nothing resembling a critical eye when it comes to source material. I suggest reading recent, up-to-date archaeological studies of the topic. Prehisotric Goddess Cults are a modern fiction.


all this feminist bashing is uncalled for when the world is so extremely patriarchal even the monetary system we are all controlled by!!!!!!

Boo-hoo. Educated opinion is now anti-woman? Western Feminism has died of old age having achieved its purpose and radical feminism is a chauvinistic joke (don't believe me? ask a Radical Feminist about voluntary wearing of burqas). Your opinions need to stand on their own, without the specter of "patriarchal oppression" being thrown about to try and shame people into agreeing with you.

If your notion of gender equality requires a disconnect with reality, something is very wrong.

[Tiberias]

This same Walker book, by the way, apparently repeats the familiar old lie about 9 million women being killed in the "Burning Times"
http://socrel.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/63/1/134.pdf

[Gaudior]

I can't believe people still believe that. It's been debunked ages ago.

[mountainpeace]

patriarchal oppression is for real and it is hurting lives especially women's

as for debunking how many women actually lost their lives in the witch hunts, well may I ask how was that number of 9 million debunked... by patriarchal society's studies???

as for Barbara G Walker bashers, then what is her whole reference list at the back of the book about if she is so not for real?

and I think the Goddess should be worshipped because the feminine essence and spirit goes through more pain in life... birthing, sacrificing , nurturing

while the males seem to have all the fun (sorry to be graphic but just squirt and they are done!) then on with more pleasure while the woman is left in pregnant agony
so worshipping the Goddess makes sense!

[Tiberias]

patriarchal oppression is for real and it is hurting lives especially women's

There is a clear distinction between men and patriarchy. I'm absolutely certain that there are men who are oppressing women. What I find extremely dubious is that patriarchies are still at play in most Western societies.


as for debunking how many women actually lost their lives in the witch hunts, well may I ask how was that number of 9 million debunked... by patriarchal society's studies???

9 million was a number made popular by Matilda Joslyn Gage in the 19th century. It's since been debunked by Brian Levack's statistical analysis and Ronald Hutton's analysis of the trial documents. Of course, as men, these scholars are in your mind somehow contaminated, so I'll point out that Anne Barstow, who is herself considered a quack although that's irrelevant at the moment, complained about the size of Levack's numbers and inflated them to 100,000 - a mere fraction of Gage's claim. In the American colonies, for instance, only 36 "witches" were executed between 1300 and 1800. The largest number in that period was in Germany, where only 26,000 were killed according to the trial documents. Only Scotland, Switzerland, Poland, Poland, Germany, France, Bohemia, and Austria managed to top 1,000, and of those only France and Germany broke 5,000. 9 million is simply a ludicrous number in almost every respect.

And if you really think that the social sciences are patriarchal, you've quite obviously never set foot inside a university social science department.


as for Barbara G Walker bashers, then what is her whole reference list at the back of the book about if she is so not for real?

If I write a book about modern cosmology and reference 13th century philosophers extensively while inserting a smattering of inaccurate references to Hawking and Einstein, does that make it a good book? No, it makes it thinly-veiled claptrap. The proof is in the pudding, and Walker's pudding seems to exist in an alternate reality.


and I think the Goddess should be worshipped because the feminine essence and spirit goes through more pain in life... birthing, sacrificing , nurturing

while the males seem to have all the fun (sorry to be graphic but just squirt and they are done!) then on with more pleasure while the woman is left in pregnant agony
so worshipping the Goddess makes sense!

Huzzah for sexism.

[Gaudior]

as for debunking how many women actually lost their lives in the witch hunts, well may I ask how was that number of 9 million debunked... by patriarchal society's studies???





This number was first calculated by an 18th century German who used a single location over a short span of time as his sample and then multiplied it to cover the entire period of the trials across the entire continent. Unfortunately, he picked a particularly brutal incident as his sample - which is exactly why survey samples are supposed to be of significant size. The number was the made popular by Matilda Gage in the 19th century and has been repeated time and time again in an example of how even good writers can repeat stupid things. We speak out about hysteria and about how fallacy becomes accepted as fact when it's repeated often enough, yet that is exactly what we're promoting. Historians put the numbers squarely between 40,000 and 100,000, based upon trial records and taking into consideration that not all records have survived or were even taken in the first place. Is a "mere" 40,000 lives not tragic enough? This is the heart of the More Persecuted than Thou Syndrome. If nine million of "us" were really killed, that puts us above even the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. And some people think that gives them permission to approach the rest of the world with a chip on their shoulder, because the world owes them something. It wasn't nine million, it wasn't "us," and even if it was, that is no excuse to behave badly toward those who happen to share a religion (Christianity) with the witch-hunters of four hundred years ago.

http://wicca.timerift.net/burning.shtml





as for Barbara G Walker bashers, then what is her whole reference list at the back of the book about if she is so not for real?


So? Who cares how many references she has? You can have a big ass citation list with false information. And how are we bashing Barbara Walker by telling her that her information is wrong? That's not a personal attack. I could write a book on how the earth is made of cheese and cite references and sources too, but that doesn't make anything I wrote correct, does it? And in fact, no matter how many sources I provide, I am wrong, because I got my information from other people who are wrong.



and I think the Goddess should be worshipped because the feminine essence and spirit goes through more pain in life... birthing, sacrificing , nurturing



Go ahead and worship the Goddesses. I worship Goddesses too. But I don't act as if they are all part of a big happy ancient family. Worship what you want, believe what you want, but just as you have right to say what you want, I also have the right to challenge it.

[mountainpeace]

What I find extremely dubious is that patriarchies are still at play in most Western societies.



.

Hmmmm did you see when the president was sworn in how the masses prayed as he said "oh Heavenly Father"blablabla

the three main religions of the world are patriarchal religions

most of the leaders in the world are male

and you say this?

this goes to show I know more of what I'm talking about!!!

and yes I think science is more patriarchal as they know more about men's science health then they do women because they have done more health tests on men through the years such as for heart problems, etc. etc.
I learned that when I took a class at the university on women's history!!!!

and as for the number of women killed during the witch hunts I don't see how they can debunk this since they weren't there...
they are going off of recorded documents and lists...
how many are not in those records that were killed is the real question!

[Tiberias]

Hmmmm did you see when the president was sworn in how the masses prayed as he said "oh Heavenly Father"blablabla

How does this oppress you?


the three main religions of the world are patriarchal religions

Hinduism is patriarchal?


most of the leaders in the world are male

Yep. And women keep voting for them. What's your point?


and you say this?

this goes to show I know more of what I'm talking about!!!

It goes to show you have a poor grasp of vocabulary and an overdeveloped victim complex.


and yes I think science is more patriarchal as they know more about men's science health then they do women because they have done more health tests on men through the years such as for heart problems, etc. etc.
I learned that when I took a class at the university on women's history!!!!

Would it be safe to assume your computer was designed and built by women using non-scientific methods and that you refuse to use cars, phones, or any of those other tools of male patriarchal oppression that those patriarchal scientists have invented to keep you down?


and as for the number of women killed during the witch hunts I don't see how they can debunk this since they weren't there...
they are going off of recorded documents and lists...
how many are not in those records that were killed is the real question!

Damn the facts, if there's room for doubt, even if only because of an ignorance of the facts, then ANYTHING goes! Right?

You know, come to think of it, I only know that Harriet Tubman and Betsy Ross existed because of male historians. Clearly they're fictional characters!

Seriously, though, when did "feminism" jump in bed with anti-science barbarity? How does rejecting reality improve women's lives?

[mountainpeace]

hearing "oh heavenly father" and having it believed by the masses while the Goddess is forgotten does hurt me on a deep level being a woman!
also they are getting to the masses subconscious by saying god is a father this creates so many different levels of control and oppresses the female

and you totally ignored the fact that more scientific studies have been done for men than women

and it is easier for men to get labor jobs and money than women in this society

women vote for male politicians because there is really no one else in power to vote for its not that women really want these men in power (other than being brainwashed through the years by patriarchal society and not having much choices to vote for anyone else)

and as far as the number of women killed in the witch hunts no one will ever know since things aren't always accurately recorded and some of the records could have been lost as well (conveniently or otherwise)

[Tiberias]

hearing "oh heavenly father" and having it believed by the masses while the Goddess is forgotten does hurt me on a deep level being a woman!
also they are getting to the masses subconscious by saying god is a father this creates so many different levels of control and oppresses the female


So a great many people don't believe in a Goddess. WHY does this "hurt you as a woman"? What of the many women who consciously reject the notion of a Goddess?

If you're hurt by people not believing the same things you do, your life is going to suck.



and you totally ignored the fact that more scientific studies have been done for men than women

Source?


and it is easier for men to get labor jobs and money than women in this society

Source?


women vote for male politicians because there is really no one else in power to vote for its not that women really want these men in power (other than being brainwashed through the years by patriarchal society and not having much choices to vote for anyone else)

So women are not in control of their own votes? It seems to me you're suggesting that women's suffrage is a farce because women are either too deluded or too weak-willed to vote in their own best interests. Now which one of us hates women...


and as far as the number of women killed in the witch hunts no one will ever know since things aren't always accurately recorded and some of the records could have been lost as well (conveniently or otherwise)

Your evidence of 9 million deaths is that the evidence that SHOULD be there is "lost"? Seriously? Do you routinely believe in things because there is no evidence for them?

[mountainpeace]

you are clearly a man tiberias for your agression to me and your lack of understanding of how it does hurt me that women do not believe in a Goddess because this was brutally taken away from them through wars and agression and oppression for them not to believe in a Goddess anymore but instead a singular god the father!!


and as far as women not being in control of their votes oh common
women don't have much choice in the ballot box either vote for this man or that man yeah real power they have!!!!

and as for the sources to back up what I'm saying of how there have been more male health studies done than female health studies you bet I will search for the source in my old book I will dig it up just for you!!!!!

and yes I believe the evidence could have been lost since the people in power back then were trying to promote their partriarchal religion and cover up the evidence of the violence and means they used to promote it!!!!!!!

and you need a source to know that women are the main people in poverty in this world and a source to know that it's harder for women to get labor jobs than men !! common now don't be a total douche you don't need a source to know this is fact but if a source is what you need I will be a busy bee and get to work on it!!

[Gaudior]

hearing "oh heavenly father" and having it believed by the masses while the Goddess is forgotten does hurt me on a deep level being a woman!


Well hearing you talk about the Goddesses and ignoring the Gods hurts me deeply too!

Christianity is a monotheistic religion. It believes in one God. They aren't forgetting or ignoring the Goddesses or other Gods because they don't exist to them.

I love you, dear, but I'm sorry, you're facts are wrong.

[mountainpeace]

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/10/women_poverty.html

here is one of numerous links on women being poorer than men

just google it you will find tons mr tiberias

and it's quite common sense that more health studies have been done on men than women
as they just found recently that bayer aspirin isn't a heart attack prevention for women as much as it is for men for example!
but if sources is what you need well busy bee me will try to provide

and the monotheistic god came to be from all the brutality they put on anyone who believed otherwise!!!

[Gaudior]

you are clearly a man tiberias for your agression to me and your lack of understanding of how it does hurt me that women do not believe in a Goddess because this was brutally taken away from them through wars and agression and oppression for them not to believe in a Goddess anymore but instead a singular god the father!!



Most of the crusades and the inquisition was political oriented and if anything, were directed towards heretics, not pagans. The Church honestly didn't give a damn about the pagans.




and as far as women not being in control of their votes oh common
women don't have much choice in the ballot box either vote for this man or that man yeah real power they have!!!!



Why do you say that? Can you show me a source? :)

[MonSno_LeeDra]

mountainpeace wrote: hearing "oh heavenly father" and having it believed by the masses while the Goddess is forgotten does hurt me on a deep level being a woman!

Upon what source do you hang this conclusion? I know from my studies of ancient religions one seldom heard another god / goddess acknowledged or honored at certain ceremonies.


also they are getting to the masses subconscious by saying god is a father this creates so many different levels of control and oppresses the female

Sources to support this please. THough if one looks to the biology of things it does take male and female to create, unless one is born from sea foam.


and you totally ignored the fact that more scientific studies have been done for men than women

You totaly ignore the fact most medical break throughs and advances occur in times of war and many times within the battlefield medical services.

You further ignore that many times those experiments occur on unwilling combatants that each occurence is something new to the doctor's trying to save them.

Of course in the modern age more women are now being placed on battlefield conditions so I'm sure more advances will be seen in that arena. So long as other's don't worry to much about the killing and maiming that will go along with it. After all look what was done for young Jessica Lynch.


and it is easier for men to get labor jobs and money than women in this society

Now your ignoring the requirements of physical strength. In my life I have seen plenty of women in jobs that were routinely identified as male due to strength requitements. I've equally seen just as many men in professions once labled mainly as female.


women vote for male politicians because there is really no one else in power to vote for its not that women really want these men in power (other than being brainwashed through the years by patriarchal society and not having much choices to vote for anyone else)

Dang your really good. I suppose Margaret Thatcher was really a man. I suppose all the females that have taken on roles as senators, congresswomen, mayors, governors, etc were all men in disguise.

Heck I even suppose that Hillary Clinton was a man in disguise as she ran for the nominaton.


and as far as the number of women killed in the witch hunts no one will ever know since things aren't always accurately recorded and some of the records could have been lost as well (conveniently or otherwise)

Keep saying it and maybe some day you'll actually convience others to believe it. Until then I'm afraid most will actually use population models, written accounts, legal accounts, all sorts of various documents that are available to provide actuall believeable amounts.

[mountainpeace]

http://www.iisd.ca/4wcw/dpa-017.html

yet another link to how women are more poor than men since ya'all need links and don't believe what I say

just do a google search on it you will find tons of links!!!

and as far as the female politicians who have been or are in power they are few and far between and even the ones in power
lack a real feminine essence... they are more masculine than feminine (aka hilary clinton)

why would the persecutors of these women keep the documents alive to proove that they in fact used brutality to push on their
monotheistic one god?

and as far as labor jobs and women who have the strength to do them , great for them but they are few and far between compared to most of the males who find these jobs much easier

and the whole society system is structured on male masculine patriarchal energy, for example they teach in school to use the right hand (when the left corresponds with the feminine creative aspect, etc.)

[Gaudior]

I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with you about women being abused around the world...

[mountainpeace]

I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with you about women being abused around the world...

actually tiberias did and sent me a bad karma so now my whole line is red hence another example of how women are abused by men
i knew right away that tiberias was male from how agressive and mean he was to me from my thoughts

so i sent links here to look up articles on how women are more poor than men because he asked for them, he can do a google search too as well for all these sources he wants to see instead of attacking me

[Gaudior]

But mountainpeace, all men are not aggressive and mean. And I fail to see how he was just because he happened to disagree with you...

In fact, did you know that in many cultures, the Gods were kinder than the Goddesses? Take El, the God of the Cannanites for instance. He had a daughter named Anat, who threatened him constantly about treating her brother, Baal (whom she was in love with to the point of obsession) better and...gosh, I haven't read the myth in ages...give him a home. She threatened him graphically, it's pretty bad stuff.

My point being, women are not always the sweet ones. In Hinduism, Shakti (Goddess) is known as the active force in all things, while the Gods are seen as passive. It's the opposite.

Feminism is about eqaulity. It isn't about "Women are better than men/men are better than women"

[MonSno_LeeDra]

mountainpeace wrote: yet another link to how women are more poor than men since ya'all need links and don't believe what I say

Actually I do not think that has been contested, nor the fact that there are actually more children that are poor and in poverty than women.


and as far as the female politicians who have been or are in power they are few and far between and even the ones in power lack a real feminine essence... they are more masculine than feminine (aka hilary clinton)

Actually there are quite a few and have been quite a few in the political arena, in many Christian Organizations outside of the Catholic Church and behind and in control over many other service organizations.


and as far as labor jobs and women who have the strength to do them , great for them but they are few and far between compared to most of the males who find these jobs much easier

Ugh perhaps because men by nature possess the body construction to possess the upper body strength that the jobs call for.


and the whole society system is structured on male masculine patriarchal energy, for example they teach in school to use the right hand (when the left corresponds with the feminine creative aspect, etc.)

Actually they teach use the right over the left which goes back to the notion of RHP / LHP and association with the Devil. I know I was born left handed and had it smacked many a time until my right hand became the predominate hand. That was in public schools.

[mountainpeace]

actually tiberias wanted sources to back up my statement that more women in this world are more impoverished than males so I sent links

he even gave me bad karma so now it's a red bar

i'm not saying all men are mean but from my experience in life most men are.... tiberias giving me bad karma and wanting me to list sources of what most of us already know is one example

so thank you mr tiberias for giving me a red line, i like red much better anyways it's one of my favorite colors

and the reason they associated the left hand with the devil was because they associated the feminine with the devil (because they wanted to decrease woman's power in the world and all things feminine, matriarchal,etc.) and from there the left hand became of the devil , the left in ancient worlds was always about the feminine aspect, the nurturing aspect, for even the heart is on the left side (the feminine caring side)

[Tiberias]

you are clearly a man tiberias for your agression to me and your lack of understanding of how it does hurt me that women do not believe in a Goddess because this was brutally taken away from them through wars and agression and oppression for them not to believe in a Goddess anymore but instead a singular god the father!!

Which wars were fought against Goddess worship?

Also, I find your suggestion that I'm clearly a man because I've been "agressive" towards you is blatantly sexist, insulting, and derogatory. It's no different than if one were to claim that you're clearly a woman because your posts are hysterical nonsense. The difference between us is that I don't buy into such ridiculous, insulting stereotypes. That you evidently do says a great deal about your beliefs concerning gender.



and as far as women not being in control of their votes oh common
women don't have much choice in the ballot box either vote for this man or that man yeah real power they have!!!!

Men, oddly enough, have the same choices at election time that women do.


and as for the sources to back up what I'm saying of how there have been more male health studies done than female health studies you bet I will search for the source in my old book I will dig it up just for you!!!!!

I'll wait.


and yes I believe the evidence could have been lost since the people in power back then were trying to promote their partriarchal religion and cover up the evidence of the violence and means they used to promote it!!!!!!!

The European witch hunts occurred hundreds of years after Christianity became very nearly the only religion on that continent, and killed, predominantly, Christians. How on earth is that a promotion of patriarchal religion?


and you need a source to know that women are the main people in poverty in this world and a source to know that it's harder for women to get labor jobs than men !! common now don't be a total douche you don't need a source to know this is fact but if a source is what you need I will be a busy bee and get to work on it!!

Common sense again? I'm not sure that term means what you think it means.


http://www.americanprogress.org/issu...n_poverty.html

here is one of numerous links on women being poorer than men

just google it you will find tons mr tiberias

Like this one?
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba392


and it's quite common sense that more health studies have been done on men than women
as they just found recently that bayer aspirin isn't a heart attack prevention for women as much as it is for men for example!
but if sources is what you need well busy bee me will try to provide

I'm not sure aspirin's effectiveness can really be blamed on anything other than chemistry.


and the monotheistic god came to be from all the brutality they put on anyone who believed otherwise!!!

Could you elaborate?


and as far as the female politicians who have been or are in power they are few and far between and even the ones in power
lack a real feminine essence... they are more masculine than feminine (aka hilary clinton)

Hillary isn't really a woman. Okay...


actually tiberias did and sent me a bad karma so now my whole line is red hence another example of how women are abused by men
i knew right away that tiberias was male from how agressive and mean he was to me from my thoughts

I give plenty of people bad karma for posts I find ridiculous. Most of them are men. You're free to do the same.


so i sent links here to look up articles on how women are more poor than men because he asked for them, he can do a google search too as well for all these sources he wants to see instead of attacking me

There are also plenty of studies, such as the one I provided, suggesting that the lower wages and higher poverty rates for women in America are often better accounted for by factors other than patriarchal oppression. I never said women are not abused in this world. I said patriarchy is a bogeyman.


i'm not saying all men are mean but from my experience in life most men are.... tiberias giving me bad karma and wanting me to list sources of what most of us already know is one example

Sexism is ugly regardless of which group you're talking about.

[mountainpeace]

why mr tiberias my favorite person on here thanks for your reply lol

and yes i knew you were male from your actions call it womanly intuition and i was right!

which wars were fought against Goddess Worship? common you don't know that the male monotheistic religions of the world came into power through brutal force and oppression? you need tons of sources and links!!!!!
you can do a little clicking and find this out easily!!!

aspirin's effectiveness being blamed on chemistry? not the fact that for years they promoted it as helping with heart attacks and then recently when women are finally being put in studies they say oh well for women it doesn't work quite as well!!
blatant chemistry you say? hmmmm

[Gaudior]

Hillary isn't really a woman.


*gigglesnort*



which wars were fought against Goddess Worship? common you don't know that the male monotheistic religions of the world came into power through brutal force and oppression? you need tons of sources and links!!!!!
you can do a little clicking and find this out easily!!!





The persecutions targeted women.
Yes, and no. Most of the victims were indeed women, and being a woman certainly made you a suspect. But that is not to say that the point of the persecutions was to destroy women. The point of the persecutions was to destroy witches, but there were reasons why people thought women were more likely to be witches than men, and the reasons extend far beyond simple misogyny. For more information, read the Women and Witchcraft (http://wicca.timerift.net/women_essay.shtml) and Witches and Saints (http://wicca.timerift.net/saints_essay.shtml).
And on a final historical note, stop talking about those poor witches burned at Salem. No one was burned at Salem. One was pressed to death; the rest were hanged.
http://wicca.timerift.net/burning.shtml

[mountainpeace]

*gigglesnort*

lol hun thanks for adding some comfort and lightheartedness to this forum

and i didn't say that the persecutions targeted women, they targeted Goddess Worship in any form to wipe out the feminine aspect of
spirituality that was their aim
so surely anyone who worshipped this feminine aspect of spirituality (male or female were then persecuted)

hence why I stick up for Dear Goddess!!!!!! who was wiped out long ago by brutal force by patriarchal religion

[Tiberias]

why mr tiberias my favorite person on here thanks for your reply lol

and yes i knew you were male from your actions call it womanly intuition and i was right!

which wars were fought against Goddess Worship? common you don't know that the male monotheistic religions of the world came into power through brutal force and oppression? you need tons of sources and links!!!!!
you can do a little clicking and find this out easily!!!

Burden of proof.


aspirin's effectiveness being blamed on chemistry? not the fact that for years they promoted it as helping with heart attacks and then recently when women are finally being put in studies they say oh well for women it doesn't work quite as well!!
blatant chemistry you say? hmmmm

I'll wait for your sources on medical study demographics before responding, if that's okay with you.

[RoseKitten]

why mr tiberias my favorite person on here thanks for your reply lol

and yes i knew you were male from your actions call it womanly intuition and i was right!



It's sexist and disgusting.

I'm sad that I missed real feminism in my life. All there is now is man bashing. I'm a huge fan of equality. Such is life I suppose.




which wars were fought against Goddess Worship? common you don't know that the male monotheistic religions of the world came into power through brutal force and oppression? you need tons of sources and links!!!!!
you can do a little clicking and find this out easily!!!



You seem to think that somehow "old pagan religions" means "man bashing goddess loving pansies." How about instead of making ridiculous claims, you provide some sources? You're spouting off a lot, making very little sense, and seem to be making up quite a bit as you go.

I'll change the font on this so you can read it better.

I personally follow a Sumerian Goddess. Sumer is the first known civilization (note, civilization, not town or city. This distinction matters). Inanna was a well respected, powerful goddess. She was mean, hateful, and down right evil at times. She was powerful, dark, and scary. The pantheon was lead by An, a male deity who was very loving and kind, most of the time. I fail to see how this "ancient civilization was goddess based. While individual towns would have been, there were also towns that were god based. Different towns tended to have their own patron deities, so it was not uncommon to find one that was solely dedicated to a specific deity.

[RoseKitten]

hence why I stick up for Dear Goddess!!!!!! who was wiped out long ago by brutal force by patriarchal religion

Many goddesses are quite alive and well. They hardly need someone to alter history for them.

My goddess doesn't need me to "stick up for her" because she wasn't wiped out. She's quite powerful on her own.

[Tiberias]

I'll change the font on this so you can read it better.

I legitimately lolled.:hahugh: But I suppose, tempting though it may be, we should remember that old adage about the message and the messenger, eh?

[Gaudior]

and the monotheistic god came to be from all the brutality they put on anyone who believed otherwise!!!


There are several monotheistic Gods, and the one I think you are referring to seems to have mellowed down considerably over the years.



hence why I stick up for Dear Goddess!!!!!! who was wiped out long ago by brutal force by patriarchal religion


Which Goddess are you referring to? Goddess worship is alive and well, in Shinto, Daoism, Hinduism, and in Buddhism (Okay, they aren't Goddesses, whatever. But still).

[mountainpeace]

oh its rosekitten,
oh it's the girl who ignored my post on coconut water
when i was trying to be nice and friendly...so i deleted that post

well missy you can read up the sources yourself what I say is true
and my womanly intuition let me know that tiberias was male from his
actions it isn't sexist it is what my intuition told me from what he did to me

and what you said doesn't make any sense you need sources to know that they wiped out the Goddess with brutal violence and force?
what planet are you living on that you need sources to know this!!!!
well instead of attacking me you look up the sources because you know I'm right!!!! or how about you find sources to disproove this since you are so keen on attacking me and you won't find any sources to disproove what I say because I am right!!!!!!!

[RoseKitten]

I legitimately lolled.:hahugh: But I suppose, tempting though it may be, we should remember that old adage about the message and the messenger, eh?

I'm glad I could make you lol. :lol:

However, what message and messenger are we talking about? It's likely a combination of sunburn, lack of sleep, and a need for sex, but my mind isn't functioning properly at the moment. I'm taking a lot long to attempt to formulate thoughts then usual. :weirdsmil

[Tiberias]

I'm just concerned that some of this is starting to veer towards what may be construed as personal rather than topical. *shrug*


and what you said doesn't make any sense you need sources to know that they wiped out the Goddess with brutal violence and force?
what planet are you living on that you need sources to know this!!!!

This may come as a shock to you, but not everybody on this planet is going to agree with your assertions just because you say so.

[Gaudior]

and what you said doesn't make any sense you need sources to know that they wiped out the Goddess with brutal violence and force?


Again, the Goddesses were not wiped out. In fact, Christianity seemed to have helped Paganism along, if not steal from them (which is fine, because every religion is guilty of it, lol). The Church mostly left the Pagans alone and tortured Protestants, Muslims, and other heretics.

[Tiberias]

Again, the Goddesses were not wiped out. In fact, Christianity seemed to have helped Paganism along, if not steal from them (which is fine, because every religion is guilty of it, lol). The Church mostly left the Pagans alone and tortured Protestants, Muslims, and other heretics.

See, now things are getting complicated. To be best of my knowledge, the more horrendous witch trial activities were undertaken in predominantly Protestant regions. While the Church in Rome has undoubtedly acted out against Protestants in the past, we need to be clear about what we're discussing here, both geographically and chronologically.

[Gaudior]

Ah. Good point. I always get these confused >_<

[mountainpeace]

I'm just concerned that some of this is starting to veer towards what may be construed as personal rather than topical. *shrug*



This may come as a shock to you, but not everybody on this planet is going to agree with your assertions just because you say so.

this is coming from the man who gave me bad karma and made my line red, how was that not personal?
thankfully i like red better
anyways it is personal when i'm trying to get through to your brains that it is more than obvious how with brutal violence they completely wiped the Goddess and Sacred Feminine out of mainstream society and religions

[RoseKitten]

oh it's the girl who ignored my post on coconut water
when i was trying to be nice and friendly...so i deleted that post



You mean this thread? http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=231206

Where I was specifically looking for help finding a website, and you posted something irrelevant. I don't respond to posts just because they happen to be in my thread. Hardly any reason to throw a pity party and get an attitude.




well dear you can read up the sources yourself what I say is true
and my womanly intuition let me know that tiberias was male from his
actions it isn't sexist it is what my intuition told me from what he did to me



Dear child, I think you have quite a bit to learn about life still. I can't read up on sources if you don't provide them.




and what you said doesn't make any sense you need sources to know that they wiped out the Goddess with brutal violence and force?



My goddess wasn't wiped out. To which goddess are you talking about? I know many, personally, that are alive and quite well.



what planet are you living on that you need sources to know this!!!!



One where history is something real, and not made up because it's convenient for my "argument"?



well instead of attacking me you look up the sources because you know I'm right!!!! or how about you find sources to disproove this since you are so keen on attacking me and you won't find any sources to disproove what I say because I am right!!!!!!!

I'd like to say that this made me lol, but instead it made me die a little inside. In order to have an intelligent discussion, one must be able to do more then spout of crap. One must have some sort of proof, evidence, *something* to go on that is reliable. I'm not attacking you, and I've already proven to you (did the purple not come through?) that you're wrong about the "ancient goddess society." The exclamation points don't prove anything either. Nor does saying "I'm right" make you correct.

[Gaudior]

this is coming from the man who gave me bad karma and made my line red, how was that not personal?


Mountainpeace, my friend, it's just a forum. If someone gave me bad karma for something I said, then so be it. I don't see how it is personal, but please know that Tiberius just does not want you to remain in error. Yes, he's a little firm about it...that doesn't mean he has something personal against you. :) <3

[mountainpeace]

You mean this thread?


My goddess wasn't wiped out. To which goddess are you talking about? I know many, personally, that are alive and quite well.





You know that I mean from mainstream masses worshipping them

most of the masses follow what brutal force and opression has led to the monotheistic one male father god that they used brutal force
for years to instill on a mass scale

that is what I meant by the Goddesses being wiped out sorry to not be so specific to say wiped out from mainstream worship like duh!!

and if you have time to post here to my posts then you have time to look up sources to proove or disproove what I say (if you are that passionate and sure of your position and beliefs that is)

[Gaudior]

You know that I mean from mainstream masses worshipping them

most of the masses follow what brutal force and opression has led to the monotheistic one male father god that they used brutal force
for years to instill on a mass scale

that is what I meant by the Goddesses being wiped out sorry to not be so specific to say wiped out from mainstream worship like duh!!

But she hasn't been! Do you know how many people worship Kali? How many temples in the US alone are dedicated to Hindu Goddesses? Shakta Hinduism is one of the main denominations of Hinduism.

Maybe it isn't as popular as it once was, but it is far from gone.

[RoseKitten]

You know that I mean from mainstream masses worshipping them

most of the masses follow what brutal force and opression has led to the monotheistic one male father god that they used brutal force
for years to instill on a mass scale

that is what I meant by the Goddesses being wiped out sorry to not be so specific to say wiped out from mainstream worship like duh!!

Perhaps you should learn to say what you mean instead of jumping your posts around, refusing to cite sources, and posting all out lies and trying to pass them off as fact.

Quite simply, it was *thousands* of years before the old gods "died" out from mainstream worship.

This is the way humanity works. Things evolve and change over time. Some things survive, others don't. The world was much less pleasant 4000 years ago for women in society, even in the main cities dedicated to goddesses like Inanna.

[Agaliha]

actually tiberias did and sent me a bad karma so now my whole line is red hence another example of how women are abused by men
i knew right away that tiberias was male from how agressive and mean he was to me from my thoughts

so i sent links here to look up articles on how women are more poor than men because he asked for them, he can do a google search too as well for all these sources he wants to see instead of attacking me


actually tiberias wanted sources to back up my statement that more women in this world are more impoverished than males so I sent links

he even gave me bad karma so now it's a red bar

i'm not saying all men are mean but from my experience in life most men are.... tiberias giving me bad karma and wanting me to list sources of what most of us already know is one example

so thank you mr tiberias for giving me a red line, i like red much better anyways it's one of my favorite colors

and the reason they associated the left hand with the devil was because they associated the feminine with the devil (because they wanted to decrease woman's power in the world and all things feminine, matriarchal,etc.) and from there the left hand became of the devil , the left in ancient worlds was always about the feminine aspect, the nurturing aspect, for even the heart is on the left side (the feminine caring side)

Public discussion of Karma pokes and PMs is against the rules. You've done it twice. Knock it off unless you want more infractions. Since you seem to mention it as much as possible, I'll be keeping a look out.

Also, you can hate or dislike men or gods all you want, but you can't be disrespectful to our male members. We'll be looking though your other posts. Consider yourself, for the time being WARNED.

If you don't like or want to discuss things with Tiberius, put him on ignore.

ETA: to remove my comment, don't need people replying to an Admin Mode.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I would have to disagree on goddess worship being taken out. If one looks to many of the Christian religious groups you find many of the goddesses still alive and Worshipped.

Take Mary mother of Jesus for instance, some identify her to Sophia. Some have used Mary of Ephesos as her persona and layed on the atributes of the earlier Artemis and even Cyebe as parts of her standing. One might even lay the origin of the Cult of Mary to Ephesos and the earlier goddess worship centered there.

One trully can not even lay claim that becasue a name was changed it is not the same former goddess. Artemis alone had so many names in so many regions that it would fill pages just to equate all her names to each other. Hekate holds the same truths actually if one looks to the various incarnations she has undergone over time.

[mountainpeace]

Perhaps you should learn to say what you mean instead of jumping your posts around, refusing to cite sources, and posting all out lies and trying to pass them off as fact.

Quite simply, it was *thousands* of years before the old gods "died" out from mainstream worship.

This is the way humanity works. Things evolve and change over time. Some things survive, others don't. The world was much less pleasant 4000 years ago for women in society, even in the main cities dedicated to goddesses like Inanna.

until you provide me sources to disproove what I'm saying this all only comes as an attack to what I'm saying and nothing more
and I'm not jumping all around or posting lies...
for you to be ignorant to the fact that Goddess Worship was wiped out by brutal violence is just that ignorance so stop posting attacks towards me calling me a liar until you have sources here to disproove what I'm saying!!!

and if someone posts in a thread i start something i think they meant to benefit me I would at least say thanks as you were looking for a site to lose weight and I said well coconut water helps with that, but no you ignore me because it wasn't completely on topic to what you posted i mean common it shows your character !!!!!!!

and i'm not attacking males or male gods i'm just saying why today it's more about the Goddess since for years the Goddess has been
brutally violently oppressed.... do you all realize what's going on in the middle east that the word Goddess cannot be used but male agression goes on and brutal force continues towards women and yet I cannot come on here to defend the Goddess without being attacked!!!!

also i didn't see the warnings before i went on and on about the karma so point taken!!!!

[Tiberias]

Tiberius just does not want you to remain in error. Yes, he's a little firm about it...that doesn't mean he has something personal against you. <3

This. I don't avoid confrontation, and I see little value in beating around bushes. That doesn't mean I consider internet debates personal. Heck, if blunt arguments meant something that personal to me or those who know me, my marriage would be in horrible shape!:P

[RoseKitten]

until you provide me sources to disproove what I'm saying this all only comes as an attack to what I'm saying and nothing more
and I'm not jumping all around or posting lies...
for you to be ignorant to the fact that Goddess Worship was wiped out by brutal violence is just that ignorance so stop posting attacks towards me calling me a liar until you have sources here to disproove what I'm saying!!!

Wait... you want me to prove that something never happened? Aside from the fact that, since it's not written about, being that they don't write history about things that didn't happen... You keep making claims, yet you refuse to cite them. If they happened, it's obvious that you should have the sources. Since I've never seen them, how can I know that what you say is truth? My guess is that there isn't any proof.

[RoseKitten]

:lol:
This thread sure has a lot of viewers currently.... :p

[Tiberias]

Well, there is one substance that attracts more flies than honey. ;)

[Gaudior]

and i'm not attacking males or male gods i'm just saying why today it's more about the Goddess since for years the Goddess has been
brutally violently oppressed.... do you all realize what's going on in the middle east that the word Goddess cannot be used but male agression goes on and brutal force continues towards women and yet I cannot come on here to defend the Goddess without being attacked!!!!
also i didn't see the warnings before i went on and on about the karma so point taken!!!!

Of course I know what's going on in the Middle East because I am Middle Eastern.

It's the same of all religions. The Taliban believes Islam to be the only religion. Which means if you even try to give an injeel (New Testement) to someone, you can get in trouble. It's all religions, not just religions that happen to include Goddesses. Christians are persecuted over there a great deal. It isn't just Pagans.

[RoseKitten]

Well, there is one substance that attracts more flies than honey. ;)

See, now I know I'm tired, because it actually took a second to "click" in my brain. :toofless: Now I feel slow... haha

[Agaliha]

also i didn't see the warnings before i went on and on about the karma so point taken!!!!

We don't have to warn you before. It's in our rules. The same rules you agreed to when you signed up to the forum. The same rules in the FAQ. It's not our fault that you failed to read or understand them. Now that you know, you can correct your error.

Also, from now on, take any questions you have about your Admining, karma and the rules to a PM (and PM an admin). Stop talking about it in this thread.

[RoseKitten]

Of course I know what's going on in the Middle East because I am Middle Eastern.

It's the same of all religions. The Taliban believes Islam to be the only religion. Which means if you even try to give an injeel (New Testement) to someone, you can get in trouble. It's all religions, not just religions that happen to include Goddesses. Christians are persecuted over there a great deal. It isn't just Pagans.

Shhh! Didn't you know facts are meaningless in this thread? ;)

[Gaudior]

Shhh! Didn't you know facts are meaningless in this thread? ;)



:boing:

[RoseKitten]

and if someone posts in a thread i start something i think they meant to benefit me I would at least say thanks as you were looking for a site to lose weight and I said well coconut water helps with that, but no you ignore me because it wasn't completely on topic to what you posted i mean common it shows your character !!!!!!!



I didn't see this before, but I'll humor you.

I didn't say "thanks" because I didn't appreciate your advice. Instead of saying so, I just let it slide, because it really isn't all that important to me. If people on the internet hurt your feelings and get you so upset this easily, then I'd hate to see what you're like IRL. There is no rule anywhere that says I *have* to respond to everything that is ever written about or towards me. What, pray tell, does it say of my character? That I ignore things that I don't care about? Well, yes, in fact that is true!

[Tiberias]

It's the same of all religions. The Taliban believes Islam to be the only religion. Which means if you even try to give an injeel (New Testement) to someone, you can get in trouble. It's all religions, not just religions that happen to include Goddesses. Christians are persecuted over there a great deal. It isn't just Pagans.

This is an important distinction! It's not exactly accurate to say that talk of goddesses is verboten in much of the Middle East. It's far more accurate to say that talk of non-Islamic religions in anything but a negative light is verboten in much of the Middle East. Similar effect, I suppose, but far different purpose and motivation.

[mountainpeace]

Of course I know what's going on in the Middle East because I am Middle Eastern.

It's the same of all religions. The Taliban believes Islam to be the only religion. Which means if you even try to give an injeel (New Testement) to someone, you can get in trouble. It's all religions, not just religions that happen to include Goddesses. Christians are persecuted over there a great deal. It isn't just Pagans.

I know hun I'm just saying originally it was the sacred feminine that was persecuted and replaced by purely monotheistic male father god

now it seems the three main male religions are attacking each other in a fight to the death :(

[RoseKitten]

Of course I know what's going on in the Middle East because I am Middle Eastern.

It's the same of all religions. The Taliban believes Islam to be the only religion. Which means if you even try to give an injeel (New Testement) to someone, you can get in trouble. It's all religions, not just religions that happen to include Goddesses. Christians are persecuted over there a great deal. It isn't just Pagans.


This is an important distinction! It's not exactly accurate to say that talk of goddesses is verboten in much of the Middle East. It's far more accurate to say that talk of non-Islamic religions in anything but a negative light is verboten in much of the Middle East. Similar effect, I suppose, but far different purpose and motivation.

Holy crap Batman! I just learned something. :lol: I guess I'm out of the loop on what's going on over there. I really should pay more attention. I guess I didn't realize that it extended to all religions. Are there just areas where this is true, or is it pretty much everywhere?

[mountainpeace]

I didn't see this before, but I'll humor you.

I didn't say "thanks" because I didn't appreciate your advice. Instead of saying so, I just let it slide, because it really isn't all that important to me. If people on the internet hurt your feelings and get you so upset this easily, then I'd hate to see what you're like IRL. There is no rule anywhere that says I *have* to respond to everything that is ever written about or towards me. What, pray tell, does it say of my character? That I ignore things that I don't care about? Well, yes, in fact that is true!

lets see some links from you to disproove all I've said .... oh that's right you can't find any!!!!!
because I'm right!!!! anyways.....

as for not caring about what I posted that's great it means more coconut water for me and more weight gain for you who cares!
and when you really need advice one day and I have some to give I will refrain from giving it to you because I don't care about you in the least!!!

[RoseKitten]

lets see some links to disproove all I've said .... oh that's right you can't find any!!!!!

and as for not caring about what I posted that's great it means more coconut water for me and more weight gain for you who cares!
and when you really need advice one day and I have some to give I will refrain from giving it to you because I don't care about you in the least!!!

I'll try a different color this time, and use less words.

I cannot give you links to something that doesn't exist. The fact is, my disproof doesn't exist because real historians write about history. If something didn't happen, it isn't written about. On the other hand, you say that you have seen sources that prove you're right, yet you refuse to present them. Hmm...

By the way, I don't want advice from you, and I really couldn't care less if you don't like or care about me. People who are so easily offended, post bunk, and demand to be correct without providing anything in the way of proof are not the type of people I respect. Keep your opinions away from me, please.

[mountainpeace]

simple links to proove your side of things then and i prefer red as i've said to green

and I did provide sources

just read through my posts do a little scrolling

as for sources to proove that Goddess was violently replaced with male monotheistic god religion,
why would that have been left in the books? if patriarchy was gaining power why would they leave it in their
records that they gained this power through brutal force and desecration of the Goddess

the fact that most lil girls growing up don't have a choice in their early years to even know of Goddess is another point
of partriarchal society and male dominated religion

why would patriarchal leaders leave it in the history books that this is how they gained power through violent brutal force and
persecution of Goddess Worshippers?

Many of the records and books were burned... do a little research!

and why would i care that you don't care it's actually a blessing someone as mean as you is not in my circle of friends

[RoseKitten]

simple links to proove your side of things then and i prefer red as i've said to green

My sources are in the form of books, would you even believe me if I cited them? Most were written by Samuel Noah Kramer, but I can provide specific titles if you'd like when I get home. If you want specific pages, you're on your own because I've read dozens upon dozens of history books in the last 2 years, and will not reread all of them just to give you a page number.

Can you even cite one author, source, or website?

[Tiberias]

Holy crap Batman! I just learned something. :lol: I guess I'm out of the loop on what's going on over there. I really should pay more attention. I guess I didn't realize that it extended to all religions. Are there just areas where this is true, or is it pretty much everywhere?

Selah probably knows much more about it than I do, but in my experience talking with people from various parts of the Middle East (disclaimer: they were all in Western post-secondary institutions, so there's an obvious sampling bias involved here), traditionally Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism were tolerated as acceptable, but today that's only really true in portions of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and in Turkey in the areas immediately surrounding Istanbul and to a lesser extend Ankara. Judaism and Zoroastrianism is borderline tolerated in Iran if it's within their own borders. But popular opinion seems to be continuing to shift against all non-Islamic religion with perhaps the exception (which I've experienced first hand) of Istanbul - I don't know if there are other exceptions.

[Caelestis ♥ Raven]

Wow I think this thread has somewhere along the lines lost its way big time lol



I'm sad that I missed real feminism in my life. All there is now is man bashing. I'm a huge fan of equality. Such is life I suppose.

Real feminism is still very much alive. Don't throw all of us into the same bag with the nutties please :)

History has been badly warped by far too many people who get an idea in their head and write a book. And some of it was (I believe) in good intentions at the time but later learned not to be quite true.

Holding on to false ideas only holds us back. It is the same thing about those who wish to believe 9 million witches were burned. It is not true and it does not help waving flags saying it is.

Basing our arguments on facts and truth will always give us more power then choosing to stick our heads in the sand and ignore them.

I also think that while history is important to learn from the present and the future needs our most attention. It just doesn't really matter IMO if we had Goddess cults or if all our ancestors worshipped the Goddess or not. They are all long dead. Alot of horrible crimes happened to women and many others in the past. But lets raise our voices for what is happening today and towards things that we can actually change (unless you are working on a time machine? lol)

But if you must argue history I think you really have to watch how you say things. Screaming as a martyr will not get you very far with your points.

I worship only a Goddess. I feel it is a personal choice on who or what you worship no matter what. I think strongly that people should have the right to worship a male God just as I do a Goddess. Or a hermaphrodite deity or a billion gods and goddesses.



and as far as the female politicians who have been or are in power they are few and far between and even the ones in power
lack a real feminine essence... they are more masculine than feminine (aka hilary clinton)

I find this terribly offensive. Our first step within feminism should be breaking down the boxes of what is feminine and what is masculine. A woman can encompasses all aspects of our whole. If I wish to wear frilly pink dresses and pick flowers and have babies or wear blue pants and play sports I am equally and beautifully a woman fully.

[Gaudior]

MountainPeace, check out Wicca for the Rest of Us. It has some good essays on Goddess worship, matriarchy, etc:

http://wicca.timerift.net/goddess_worship.shtml

http://wicca.timerift.net/saints_essay.shtml

http://wicca.timerift.net/history.shtml

http://wicca.timerift.net/matriarchal.shtml

http://wicca.timerift.net/burning.shtml

http://wicca.timerift.net/church.shtml

^^^ I hope you find them somewhat useful :)

[RoseKitten]

Selah probably knows much more about it than I do, but in my experience talking with people from various parts of the Middle East (disclaimer: they were all in Western post-secondary institutions, so there's an obvious sampling bias involved here), traditionally Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism were tolerated as acceptable, but today that's only really true in portions of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and in Turkey in the areas immediately surrounding Istanbul and to a lesser extend Ankara. Judaism and Zoroastrianism is borderline tolerated in Iran if it's within their own borders. But popular opinion seems to be continuing to shift against all non-Islamic religion with perhaps the exception (which I've experienced first hand) of Istanbul - I don't know if there are other exceptions.

That makes me sad. :( There's a lot of history being destroyed in the middle east on a far too regular basis. I would love to know more about Sumer, but not only did research get a late start, but it's all being blown up now. <_< Oh well.

[RoseKitten]

Wow I think this thread has somewhere along the lines lost its way big time lol




Real feminism is still very much alive. Don't throw all of us into the same bag with the nutties please :)

History has been badly warped by far too many people who get an idea in their head and write a book. And some of it was (I believe) in good intentions at the time but later learned not to be quite true.

Holding on to false ideas only holds us back. It is the same thing about those who wish to believe 9 million witches were burned. It is not true and it does not help waving flags saying it is.

Basing our arguments on facts and truth will always give us more power then choosing to stick our heads in the sand and ignore them.

I also think that while history is important to learn from the present and the future needs our most attention. It just doesn't really matter IMO if we had Goddess cults or if all our ancestors worshipped the Goddess or not. They are all long dead. Alot of horrible crimes happened to women and many others in the past. But lets raise our voices for what is happening today and towards things that we can actually change (unless you are working on a time machine? lol)

But if you must argue history I think you really have to watch how you say things. Screaming as a martyr will not get you very far with your points.

I worship only a Goddess. I feel it is a personal choice on who or what you worship no matter what. I think strongly that people should have the right to worship a male God just as I do a Goddess. Or a hermaphrodite deity or a billion gods and goddesses.




I find this terribly offensive. Our first step within feminism should be breaking down the boxes of what is feminine and what is masculine. A woman can encompasses all aspects of our whole. If I wish to wear frilly pink dresses and pick flowers and have babies or wear blue pants and play sports I am equally and beautifully a woman fully.

That was a beautiful and well written post. :) Thank you.

[Tiberias]

I find this terribly offensive. Our first step within feminism should be breaking down the boxes of what is feminine and what is masculine. A woman can encompasses all aspects of our whole. If I wish to wear frilly pink dresses and pick flowers and have babies or wear blue pants and play sports I am equally and beautifully a woman fully.

Yep. It's important to remember that while sex may be a physical reality with limited mutability, gender is a social construct. If you don't like it, you've got to change the shape of the construct (although you also have to realize that all social constructs, being tied into social systems that are by definition plural and generally vastly larger than the individual, carry some inertia).

[mountainpeace]

http://www.resurrectisis.org/

here is the first link I found

just type in in google

Goddess Worship Brutally destroyed

and here is another link for my fans on here

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread28491/pg1

[RoseKitten]

Yep. It's important to remember that while sex may be a physical reality with limited mutability, gender is a social construct. If you don't like it, you've got to change the shape of the construct (although you also have to realize that the weight of popular opinions of that construct gives it some solidity).

I'm so far out that people that know me know to never know what to expect. :lol:

Actually, at my most recent job I was actually called stupid for moving a heavy pallet. Not because the pallet was actually all that heavy, but because I was a girl. Needless to say, I've since quit that job.

[RoseKitten]

http://www.resurrectisis.org/

here is the first link I found

just type in in google

Goddess Worship Brutally destroyed

and here is another link for my fans on here

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread28491/pg1

Random google link does not a source make.

A source, in this context, would have to be from a historian. Someone's opinion page doesn't count. Nice try though.

[mountainpeace]

http://www.susunweed.com/herbal_ezine/November05/goddess.htm

and yet another link to proove I'm right!!!

[Tiberias]

I may have missed it, but I didn't see anything on that Isis ...source...that dealt with brutal repression of primordial goddess cults through warfare.


http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread28491/pg1

Canaanite religion was not goddess-oriented:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion

And Jeremiah ch.44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+44&version=ESV) discusses the misfortune of Israelites who turned their backs on their monotheistic God and started giving offerings to a Goddess. While it is certainly critical of this practice, there is no discussion of a violent repression or warfare against these individuals. It is only claimed that God turned his back on them and so they suffered misfortune.

[mountainpeace]

http://www.susunweed.com/herbal_ezine/November05/goddess.htm

from this link it says

Medieval midwives were also persecuted for their association with pagan matriarchy and Goddess worship. Their substantial knowledge of female sexuality, birth control, breastfeeding, abortion and birthing rituals were threatening to Christian male authorities. All pagan holy days and festivities that escaped annihilation became Christianised. The repercussions of this almighty effort to subdue the immortal power of the pagan earth dwellers’ beloved Goddess wreak increasing havoc upon this planet.

[Gaudior]

http://www.resurrectisis.org/

here is the first link I found

just type in in google

Goddess Worship Brutally destroyed

Looks like another radical Goddess feminist website to me. A lot of this is laughable, honestly. Very unsourced and fanciful.




Isis was a real person. She wasn't a just "myth."


What? Where? How? When? This is news to me!...I'm not even sure where to begin with this.



Mountainpeace, will you look at my links please? I looked at yours :)

[RoseKitten]

I may have missed it, but I didn't see anything on that Isis ...source...that dealt with brutal repression of primordial goddess cults through warfare.

Shh....

[RoseKitten]

Looks like another radical Goddess feminist website to me. A lot of this is laughable, honestly. Very unsourced and fanciful.



What? Where? How? When? This is news to me!...I'm not even sure where to begin with this.

That's about as far as I read. :lol: I like real sources, and pride myself on backing my opinions with intelligent research. I don't always get it right, but many people both here and IRL are kind enough to correct my mistakes by providing some other reliable form of evidence for me. :)

[mountainpeace]

ok people here is a real link to proove my point!!!!!!!

http://www.susunweed.com/herbal_ezine/November05/goddess.htm


The Healing Mother’s presence dwelt peacefully in the hearts of Goddess-centred societies long before Christianity’s belief in only one God came into being. Predating Christianity by thousands of years, Goddess worship revered and valued the natural healing powers of the feminine principle. The power of this most loved protectress was devotedly invoked in rituals embodying refined healing skills secretly passed from mother to daughter for many generations.

Christianity deemed ritual offerings to the spontaneous female spirits of earth and water as unclean. Labeled as malign devils, these playful spirits were seen as evil creatures wielding corrupt power. When Christianity forced the adoration of the Goddess and her rituals into seclusion, those who practised her sacred rites were named, or that which is hidden. The shining glory of this bountiful Earth Mother, so openly loved and revered since prehistoric times, was suddenly seen as sinful and shameful.
With the onset of Christianity, all who openly paid homage to the Goddess were punished as witches, tortured and burned at the stake. Many of her beautiful naked images that adorned pagan churches and temples were destroyed. Simple country women who performed homely rituals of cooking, weaving, herb gathering, singing, dancing, adorning tables and lighting http://www.susunweed.com/herbal_ezine/images/pic-mindy-forgiveness.jpg (http://www.ashtreepublishing.com/bookshop/products.php?cat=49)candles were accused of worshipping the devil.

[RoseKitten]

ok people here is a real link to proove my point!!!!!!!

http://www.susunweed.com/herbal_ezine/November05/goddess.htm


The Healing Mother’s presence dwelt peacefully in the hearts of Goddess-centred societies long before Christianity’s belief in only one God came into being. Predating Christianity by thousands of years, Goddess worship revered and valued the natural healing powers of the feminine principle. The power of this most loved protectress was devotedly invoked in rituals embodying refined healing skills secretly passed from mother to daughter for many generations.

Christianity deemed ritual offerings to the spontaneous female spirits of earth and water as unclean. Labeled as malign devils, these playful spirits were seen as evil creatures wielding corrupt power. When Christianity forced the adoration of the Goddess and her rituals into seclusion, those who practised her sacred rites were named, or that which is hidden. The shining glory of this bountiful Earth Mother, so openly loved and revered since prehistoric times, was suddenly seen as sinful and shameful.
With the onset of Christianity, all who openly paid homage to the Goddess were punished as witches, tortured and burned at the stake. Many of her beautiful naked images that adorned pagan churches and temples were destroyed. Simple country women who performed homely rituals of cooking, weaving, herb gathering, singing, dancing, adorning tables and lighting http://www.susunweed.com/herbal_ezine/images/pic-mindy-forgiveness.jpg (http://www.ashtreepublishing.com/bookshop/products.php?cat=49)candles were accused of worshipping the devil.

That's just another link claiming the same thing you are, without the "who, what, when, and where." It's vague and general, and also not sourced. I don't want opinion pages, I want historical evidence for these claims.

[Gaudior]

With the onset of Christianity, all who openly paid homage to the Goddess were punished as witches, tortured and burned at the stake


Mountainpeace, that is a lie, and I have shown you many links proving that this is factually incorrect.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040715081307/www.whywiccanssuck.com/btimes.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20040803101821/www.cog.org/witch_hunt.html




....Protestant countries had paid witchfinders, Catholic countries' specialists were Dominicans. The witchfinders was again a reason why things got out of hand very easily. They got a part of the property of every confiscated witch. And because there was no such thing as a solitary, and one of Satan's orders was to go and convert, it simply was not possible that a town would have only one witch. The rest you can imagine. I saw a 'never again burning times' sign on one of your 'favourite' webpages. I have seen the expression on other sites a few times, and I feel really uncomfortable with it. I would really appreciate it if you would strenthen your statement about this on your site. I think the expression is offensive to the people who died during these times. They were ordinary christians, for who every kind of pagan faith of the practise of magic would have been devil worshipping. They were innocent of everything they were accused of, and to link them to paganism or magic feels for me doing the same thing to them those witchfinders did. Concerning the heretics (the real ones, and not the ones who were falsely accused), they had a form of Christianity they felt strongly enough about to die for. It is one thing to admire their courage, another to link them to a faith they would have abhorred. (In other words, people, you're spitting on their graves. --4nongoths)

[mountainpeace]

my point is if history records were controlled by the people in power (which is logical)
why would they leave a lot of evidence of how they came to power

by brutally violently attacking the feminine aspect of religion

for duh that's how it became just the male father god,
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out

because most children find comfort with the mother (breast feeding, etc. while many children are abandoned by their fathers)
yet the main 3 religions that rule the world have the masses honor a male father god!! it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out this was done with brutal force and violence

just because these sites don't have sources to back them up doesn't mean they are wrong

[RoseKitten]

my point is if history records were controlled by the people in power (which is logical)
why would they leave a lot of evidence of how they came to power

by brutally violently attacking the feminine aspect of religion

for duh that's how it became just the male father god,
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out

because most children find comfort with the mother (breast feeding, etc. while many children are abandoned by their fathers)
yet the main 3 religions that rule the world have the masses honor a male father god!! it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out this was done with brutal force and violence

just because these sites don't have sources to back them up doesn't mean they are wrong

Just because a "source" fits your opinion doesn't make it right.

It's no secret that in Catholicism came to power, the pagans were forced out of the cities. It's no secret that there have been many religious wars over the years of humanities existence. You are basically saying that you would rather deny historical fact, because it isn't what you want to believe.

That's... sad.

[Tiberias]

my point is if history records were controlled by the people in power (which is logical)
why would they leave a lot of evidence of how they came to power

You'd be amazed at how much anti-establishment historical documentation is out there. The Books of Margery Kempe. Writings from the losing side of the Jewish Revolt. Statements of support for the Albigensians from rulers who lost their thrones and their lives. Statements apparently made by peasants that were executed for rebelling against tyrannical authorities (the Jacquerie, for instance).

Simply chalking up a lack of evidence to some patriarchal plot to burn all the records just doesn't mesh with what we see everywhere else in the historical record.

[Gaudior]

because most children find comfort with the mother (breast feeding, etc. while many children are abandoned by their fathers)


What are you talking about? Have you never heard the expression "Daddy's little girl"? I find that to be very offensive, and I am sure those who are fathers on here would not appreciate that at all. Mothers abandon their children too! There are single fathers as well as single mothers. Father's are very protective of their children, and I know my father is, and I know the God I worship, Ganesha, is very tenderhearted towards me. Why can't you grasp that? Man does not equal evil and woman does not equal perfect.



just because these sites don't have sources to back them up doesn't mean they are wrong


Yes it does matter, because without sources, you can say whatever the heck you want.



yet the main 3 religions that rule the world have the masses honor a male father god!!


He's actually not that bad. Yeah, some of his followers, past and present, were not the best, that's them, not him *shrug*

[mountainpeace]

Just because a "source" fits your opinion doesn't make it right.

It's no secret that in Catholicism came to power, the pagans were forced out of the cities. It's no secret that there have been many religious wars over the years of humanities existence. You are basically saying that you would rather deny historical fact, because it isn't what you want to believe.

That's... sad.


rosekitten,so you are helping to proove my point then saying I am the opposite quite interesting I guess anything to get a rise out of me?

the fact that you agree that catholocism forced out pagans through brutal force and these pagans were Goddess worshippers helps to proove my point of Goddess worship being brutally attacked

so thanks for helping to proove my point even though you won't give me any credit and just say it's human nature to fight and have wars,
mhhmmm

and Selah, the number of women's shelters for those being abused by men and whose children are being abused by these fathers is much much higher than any incidence of women abandoning children (if I need sources by gosh for this this is ridiculous)
as far as daddy's little girl sure there are fathers like this but there are many many cases of domestic violence where children are being abused more by the males in the household than females and for that that statistic will be easy to find online and elsewhere just contact any local shelter!!!!!!

[Tiberias]

so you are helping to proove my point then saying I am the opposite quite interesting I guess anything to get a rise out of me?

the fact that you agree that catholocism forced out pagans through brutal force and these pagans were Goddess worshippers helps to proove my point of Goddess worship being brutally attacked

so thanks for helping to proove my point even though you won't give me any credit and just say it's human nature to fight and have wars,
mhhmmm

That right there is the jump in logic that's at fault. Pagan does not automatically mean Goddess worshiper. Jupiter and Mithras weren't exactly, uh, feminine.

[RoseKitten]

so you are helping to proove my point then saying I am the opposite quite interesting I guess anything to get a rise out of me?

the fact that you agree that catholocism forced out pagans through brutal force and these pagans were Goddess worshippers helps to proove my point of Goddess worship being brutally attacked

so thanks for helping to proove my point even though you won't give me any credit and just say it's human nature to fight and have wars,
mhhmmm

You do realize that before Catholicism rose to power, the pantheon was made of male and female deities. What is with your obsession of making pagan = goddess worship? You're connecting the wrong dots in my post, once again manipulating and changing things to fit your view.

[Gaudior]

I just feel upset because I gave you links too, Mountainpeace. I would hope you would read them and try to understand them.



the fact that you agree that catholocism forced out pagans through brutal force


Wow, I just keep on repeating myself...

the Church didn't care about the pagans. They were too busy with the Protestants (who, actually, posed and pose more of a threat to Catholicism) and Muslims. They were going after Gnostics and Pelagians and Modalists and Nestorians...they didn't care about some Goddess. Sure, they persecuted Pagans, but it was mostly Protestants and heretics.

[mountainpeace]

That right there is the jump in logic that's at fault. Pagan does not automatically mean Goddess worshiper. Jupiter and Mithras weren't exactly, uh, feminine.

no but their main aim was wiping out feminine worship
by making it one male god
sure pagans had male gods too
but the main point of the church was to wipe out the Goddesses and
feminine powers including making child birth more painful by stating the
bible said it had to and persecuting midwives
it's obvious there were male gods too in pagan religion so i'm not at fault
im just stating what the churches main objective was,
patriarchal control by forcing one male father god on the masses
and wiping out the feminine powers (Goddesses)

Selah, I promise to read your links dear,
right now I'm defending myself to the two main people attacking me (we know who they are)
who keep going on and on about how the pagans had male gods too well of course duh i'm not an idiot
but the church's main objective was to wipe out the sacred feminine and female power in general,
destroying the Goddess was the main way for them to do this and replacing it with the only and all
powerful male god!!!!

[RoseKitten]

I just feel upset because I gave you links too, Mountainpeace. I would hope you would read them and try to understand them.



Wow, I just keep on repeating myself...

the Church didn't care about the pagans. They were too busy with the Protestants (who, actually, posed and pose more of a threat to Catholicism) and Muslims. They were going after Gnostics and Pelagians and Modalists and Nestorians...they didn't care about some Goddess. Sure, they persecuted Pagans, but it was mostly Protestants and heretics.

I've since lost my sourcing, but at one point I read that there were small groups of priests that would go out into the country and pray to the old pagan gods. As I read it (and I could be wrong, Rome isn't a specialty of mine), the Romans had made a deal with the gods that they would worship them if the gods protected them. As Catholicism rose to power, the worship of the old gods stopped, and their civilization fell.

Not really very relevant to the topic at hand, but hey, this thread has been bouncing all over the place already. :lo:

[Gaudior]

but the main point of the church was to wipe out the Goddesses and


The main point of the Church, and Christianity at large, is that Jesus is the Son of God.

Most of the "persecutions" were politically motivated anyhow and carried out by the government, not the church itself. That's not to say that the Church never persecuted anyone.

And my Shakta Hindu friend, who worships Kali, disagrees with your assumption that Goddessess were wiped out.

[Gaudior]

I've since lost my sourcing, but at one point I read that there were small groups of priests that would go out into the country and pray to the old pagan gods. As I read it (and I could be wrong, Rome isn't a specialty of mine), the Romans had made a deal with the gods that they would worship them if the gods protected them. As Catholicism rose to power, the worship of the old gods stopped, and their civilization fell.

Not really very relevant to the topic at hand, but hey, this thread has been bouncing all over the place already. :lo:

That's very interesting. :) Thanks for sharing



Selah, I promise to read your links dear,



That's fine hun :)

[Tiberias]

All I want is ONE SINGLE STATEMENT from an Early Church official claiming that their primary purpose in converting and eventually persecuting pagans was to stamp out Goddess worship and oppress women. ONE STATEMENT.

[RoseKitten]

All I want is ONE SINGLE STATEMENT from an Early Church official claiming that their primary purpose in converting and eventually persecuting pagans was to stamp out Goddess worship and oppress women. ONE STATEMENT.

Agreed. Now, while I agree that pagan worship was in fact, steadily removed, it was not to "kill the goddess." While that may have been a *result* it was not the *motive.* The motive was to promote Jesus as the son of God, and to pass on his word. As a result of that, pagan worship declined. Just because something is the result of an action, doesn't mean it was the motive.

[Serpent]

All I want is ONE SINGLE STATEMENT from an Early Church official claiming that their primary purpose in converting and eventually persecuting pagans was to stamp out Goddess worship and oppress women. ONE STATEMENT.

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/4929/1280453764057.jpg

[mountainpeace]

Agreed. Now, while I agree that pagan worship was in fact, steadily removed, it was not to "kill the goddess." While that may have been a *result* it was not the *motive.* The motive was to promote Jesus as the son of God, and to pass on his word. As a result of that, pagan worship declined. Just because something is the result of an action, doesn't mean it was the motive.

how do you know that was not the motive?

according to some gnostics there were many stories in the bible taken out that promoted sacred feminine worship!!!
have you read the Divinci Code?

the fact that they wanted to promote jesus as the son of god (that his male blood was shed for the world to heal) was taken from the old myths of how female blood was shed to give life (which in fact is true in human form) and they knew they were stealing this myth to make it all about the male and wipe out the female from power

the fact that you don't have sources to proove otherwise for their motives helps to proove my point as well

[Gaudior]

the fact that they wanted to promote jesus as the son of god (that his male blood was shed for the world to heal) was taken from the old myths of how female blood was shed to give life (which in fact is true in human form) and they knew they were stealing this myth to make it all about the male and wipe out the female from power



That is just off. And wrong. And off. And wrong. And off....and...wrong.

Jesus' death was supposed to be the "ultimate sacrifice" so that a lamb did not have to be sacrificed by the High Priest once every year. He would go in and sprinkle blood from the lamb on the mercy seat, and that would cover their sins for the entire year.

For a Christian, Jesus' blood covers your sins forever, not just for a year. it has nothing to do with Goddesses. It has to do with the ancient Jewish customs of sacrifice.




have you read the Divinci Code?



Fiction.

[RoseKitten]

how do you know that was not the motive?



Well, since you didn't read my post..

How do you know it was?




according to some gnostics there were many stories in the bible taken out that promoted sacred feminine worship!!!
have you read the Divinci Code?



Everyone knows that not every story made it into the bible. Some for good reason. And no, I don't read works of fiction and consider them to be fact. I'm not an idiot.



the fact that they wanted to promote jesus as the son of god (that his male blood was shed for the world to heal) was taken from the old myths of how female blood was shed to give life (which in fact is true in human form) and they knew they were stealing this myth to make it all about the male and wipe out the female from power



Actually, if a female shed blood, she was in fact *not* giving life that month. Yay for female biology! Also, what myth has a goddess shedding blood as Jesus did? Or are you saying that because women bleed, men don't? I guess I'm really just not grasping the logic. Besides, Jesus didn't give them life, he gave them salvation in death, which is something completely different.




the fact that you don't have sources to proove otherwise for their motives helps to proove my point as well

You've still yet to provide any proof, so you haven't even proven your own points. Amazing how double standards works. Besides, there have been many links already presented to you, and I've told you myself that mine are all in book for and you'll have to wait.

[Tiberias]

according to some gnostics there were many stories in the bible taken out that promoted sacred feminine worship!!!
have you read the Divinci Code?

http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/ae112/Selphos/Facepalm/double-facepalm.jpg

You do know that The DaVinci Code is fiction, right?

Serpent, I sincerely hope she is a troll. But somehow I doubt it.:(

[Gaudior]

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/funny-pictures-cat-has-unraveled-all-your-thread.jpg

[mountainpeace]

Besides, Jesus didn't give them life, he gave them salvation in death, which is something completely different.



.


actually if you get a video on the history of christianity the first christans thought jesus was coming back really soon to take them all to heaven so their concept of death was to be saved totally making irrelevant the here and now and worshipping Mother Earth and all of life in the here and now which was another plan of the patriarchal religion to make the honor of life after death more meaningful so that Mother Earth and all Her Life could be desecrated and no one would care

[Gaudior]

Well, you are half right. The early Christians did think that Jesus was returning soon, and often, many of them would stand all day staring at the sky.

And Rosekitten is right, the salvation was a spiritual one, from hell (which is actually not separation from God, but eternity with God as well, but that a whole other...ball game...).

[Tiberias]

Just so we're clear, "Patriarchal Religion", whatever exactly that constitutes (I'm guessing it's the same shadowy, anomalous cabal of mysterious no-names that constitutes The Man), has for thousands of years actively wanted to:

Make childbirth more painful
Destroy the environment
???
Profit

Just so we're clear on that.

[MonSno_LeeDra]

actually if you get a video on the history of christianity the first christans thought jesus was coming back really soon to take them all to heaven so their concept of death was to be saved totally making irrelevant the here and now and worshipping Mother Earth and all of life in the here and now which was another plan of the patriarchal religion to make the honor of life after death more meaningful so that Mother Earth and all Her Life could be desecrated and no one would care

Man you throw a lot of red herrings into the discussions.

It's pretty difficult to say just what the early Christians supported or believed for we have no bible, or full religious texts from those eras. The bible used today is at best a tradeoff of I rub your back you rub mine as the various offshoots tried to come to a universal group.

Then add that the christian religion as espoused by Jesus probally fell into disuse and recognization when his brother James was pretty much ignored by the Church though James took over the religion as leader upon Jesus' death. After that it probally was more of a cult than the Christian religion that grew from other supposed enlightened sources.

[RoseKitten]

Make childbirth more painful
Destroy the environment
???
Profit

Just so we're clear on that.

For some reason, this reminded me of an episode of South Park.

Step one: steal underpants
Step two: ????
Step three: profit!

[mountainpeace]

Just so we're clear, "Patriarchal Religion", whatever exactly that constitutes (I'm guessing it's the same shadowy, anomalous cabal of mysterious no-names that constitutes The Man), has for thousands of years actively wanted to:

Make childbirth more painful
Destroy the environment
???
Profit

Just so we're clear on that.

ok let's start with the facts Mother Earth was feminine and Goddess was the equation of ancients worshipping the Life Giving Force of the Female and Mother Earth
when patriarchal religion (one male father god) was forced on the masses through violent force and the afterlife was given supreme importance than people no longer valued Mother Earth or Life in the here and now
and women in general , in fact childbirth became seen as a punishment from god, read genesis!!!

and the church made a huge profit off of this religion,
the vatican today is a palace as proof of the huge profits they have raked in through the years!!!!!

[Gaudior]

ok let's start with the facts Mother Earth was feminine and Goddess was the equation of ancients worshipping the Life Giving Force of the Female and Mother Earth



Not always. The ancient Egyptians saw the earth as male and the sky as female. Nut and Geb.



in fact childbirth became seen as a punishment from god, read genesis!!!

Well, if she hadn't eaten the friggin fruit...

But seriously, first of all, what it actually says is, "I will greatly multiply your sorrow..." Meaning, it didn't used to hurt, but now it does. Throughout the story, God blesses the female creatures and tells them to "be fruitful and multiply". How in the world is that a curse?

And anyhow, many Christians see the Genesis story as just that...a story, and nothing more.

I'm signing off for now. Blessings <3

[RoseKitten]

ok let's start with the facts Mother Earth was feminine and Goddess was the equation of ancients worshipping the Life Giving Force of the Female and Mother Earth
when patriarchal religion (one male father god) was forced on the masses through violent force and the afterlife was given supreme importance than people no longer valued Mother Earth or Life in the here and now
and women in general

There you go... claiming facts again. When did this goddess worship take place? Prove to me how earth is feminine. Who forced the religion? Even in those days, if people hadn't been fond of it, it wouldn't have lasted this long. Also, you seem to now be implying that Christians don't like nature! Good grief your posts are full of assumptions, accusations, and facts that aren't even real! If they were, you could prove them, since you can't or won't even try, then you can't claim them as facts. Burden of proof rests with the one who makes the initial statements. It is not my job to prove your argument for you.

[mountainpeace]

There you go... claiming facts again. When did this goddess worship take place? Prove to me how earth is feminine. Who forced the religion? Even in those days, if people hadn't been fond of it, it wouldn't have lasted this long. Also, you seem to now be implying that Christians don't like nature! Good grief your posts are full of assumptions, accusations, and facts that aren't even real! If they were, you could prove them, since you can't or won't even try, then you can't claim them as facts. Burden of proof rests with the one who makes the initial statements. It is not my job to prove your argument for you.


because the earth grows things as a womb does this is what the ancients believed that the earth was feminine, that the earth itself was a giant womb and when one died and returned to the earth one was put back in the womb of the Mother Earth
read Barbara G Walker's book on this
as for sources by golly I will try to find some for the doubting mr and mrs tomisses lol

and i didn't say all christians hate nature, don't put words in my mouth and quit doing that!
what I am saying is the church saw this as propaganda to make people focus on an afterlife and therefore the here and now life (including all life on earth, trees, etc. meant little because everyone was focused on an after life and the honoring of nature that the pagans did was forgotten as the church took ever increasing power and control over people's lives

[MonSno_LeeDra]

Hm, lets see

Most native American groups refer to the earth as Turtle Island and think of it as floating in the expanse of water. Nothing female about it other than references to Mother Earth and Father sky. But then mountains are also Grandfather Mountain, rivers named after grandfathers and grandmothers, etc.

Many Indo-Asain groups also think of the Earth as a giant turtle upon whose back the world is carried.

Many early religions denoting the birth of the gods / goddesses from the celesterial egg, which happens not to be earth.

You seem to be confusing or ascribing atributes of the cthonic gods / goddesses to the earth. Beneath the soil was death and the land of the dead, HEL was beneath Midguard, Hades beneath the surface, Hell opposite of heaven thus beneath the land.

[mountainpeace]

Hm, lets see

Most native American groups refer to the earth as Turtle Island and think of it as floating in the expanse of water. Nothing female about it other than references to Mother Earth and Father sky. But then mountains are also Grandfather Mountain, rivers named after grandfathers and grandmothers, etc.

Many Indo-Asain groups also think of the Earth as a giant turtle upon whose back the world is carried.

Many early religions denoting the birth of the gods / goddesses from the celesterial egg, which happens not to be earth.

You seem to be confusing or ascribing atributes of the cthonic gods / goddesses to the earth. Beneath the soil was death and the land of the dead, HEL was beneath Midguard, Hades beneath the surface, Hell opposite of heaven thus beneath the land.

the catholic church of europe was not concerned with what native americans or asians believed
they were set to destroy female power in europe...
so european pagan deities of Mother Earth and female power of birth and creating life were destroyed
in its place one male god to save the world in the afterlife creating a disreguard for life in the here and now (including Mother Earth)
and making child birth harder for women (women who tried to make it easier for women to give childbirth, ie midwives were often killed by the early church because they promoted a god who wanted women in as much pain as possible during childbirth for taking one bite of fruit)

[MonSno_LeeDra]

I'm bowing out of this for the above statement truly paints just how ludacris this is.

Just for the record you really should read up on history of world exploration in the 1400 - 1700's you'd be amazed at the number of things that sort of support your position with regards to the influence of the church.

Though if you read up on the difference between the two Churches ie Roman Cathaloic and Bryzentine of the Eastern Roman Empire you might discover other interesting facts.

[mountainpeace]

I'm bowing out of this for the above statement truly paints just how ludacris this is.

Just for the record you really should read up on history of world exploration in the 1400 - 1700's you'd be amazed at the number of things that sort of support your position with regards to the influence of the church.

Though if you read up on the difference between the two Churches ie Roman Cathaloic and Bryzentine of the Eastern Roman Empire you might discover other interesting facts.

you are saying I'd be amazed at the number of things that support my position in regards to the influence of the church? and yet I am being called ludacris? I'm confused!

[Agaliha]

After discussion and review of this thread, we have concluded that it would be best to close it. It's gotten too far off track and is going in circles. Also, though at this moment we are not giving individual post infractions, there are many posts that have crossed the line. Mountainpeace, this means you. I suggest you read the rules you agreed to when you became a member and use the ignore feature for members you can't get along with.