Questions about being a heathen in the millitary

[Reinhilde]

Recently I've been considering joining the local army reserve part time as a Combat medical attendant. Currently there are no positions in my area for this stream, and I have been considering communications and artillery as possible options. This has made me have a good hard think about my whole ethical standpoint on 'killing for the greater good'. I've been told that as a reservist it's highly unlikely that I'll be deployed unvoluntarily, although there are plenty of options for voluntary deployment in East Timor and the Solomon islands if I should so choose.

I guess what I'm really asking is: From a heathen perspective how do you deal with this concept of killing for good? What primary sources do you turn to for guidance? How do your relationsips with the gods come into play in your service?

I feel its important that I unravel this, even if I decide not to join in the end, this is something I need to figure out. I'd really like some people with some personal experience in the armed forces to help me with this, I feel at a loss. Any comments, servicemen or not, would be greatly appreciated.

[Kraheera]

I suppose I've never seen Heathens as pacifists. I very much see them willing to get up and smack people with axes (so to speak) if they are messed with.

So it depends on what you consider the greater good.

Regardless, a country must always have its warriors, just as every tribe that has ever survived must have its warriors. Those warriors do not always have a say in what they will be used for. I believe that so long as you carry yourself with honor and dignity, harming no innocents to your knowledge, then that is all that can be asked of you.

People often bring war upon themselves. Civilians would be much less difficult to have as casualties if they would just stop hiding the enemy amongst them. Unfortunately, how can we ask them to turn over their fathers, brothers, cousins?

It is a complex situation, and in the end, only you can make that choice.

[Reinhilde]

I more or less agree with you, I think that as long as violence is a part of many peoples natures then we will always have methods of protecting ourselves againts that violence. I used to believe that any sort of death or killing was bad, but it is a part of a life and as much as people don't like to admit it, in the end we're all animals with a certain amount of instinct with regards to this.

True, soldiers often do not have a say in how they are used, and this is where my mind starts going in circles. Some of my friends have said that if I disagree with anything the army does then I should not be a part of it. But things aren't so black and white, there will always be good and bad points so these conversations with friends often frustrate me.

It is my belief that as an individual (as you said also) as long as I conduct myself in ways that are true to myself and my faith, with repect and great care, then I could learn alot and do alot of good (especially in a medical role). I guess I am afraid that the army may take this away from me, that I would be ordered to do something which goes against what I believe e.g. deliberately targeting buildings with civilians inside to kill a far smaller amount of enemies, being told not to help someone medically because they arent' one of ours. Although I don't really know what would be asked of me in these situations, I guess thats something for me to ask the force themselves. If I end up applying, I'll definatly be taking a thesis of questions with me for specifics.

In the end (you're right) it is my decision, and this scares me a bit because this will be a life changing experience.

[Kraheera]

As medical, you can't be ordered to kill save in self defense. Medics are armed only for defense.

Same with chaplains.

You also CANNOT be forced to ignore enemies or civilians who are wounded, per the Geneva conventions that we claim to follow. To do so would be dishonorable, and if caught, you could get jail time.

As a medical being, you'd actually be far safer with your morals than if you were a typical soldier.

[Reinhilde]

Ah great, thanks for that. I was resonably certain they couldn't do stuff like that but I wasn't certain.

Yeah I figured that :) its part of what drew me to the position anyway. I just hope the position reopens, otherwise I don't know what I'll do.

[wyrd_dottir]

First off if we look to the ancient past that honored these Gods... these Heathens killed for the good of their community: be it in defense of their community, as they might wage war against another people for gain, or in human sacrifice to the gods.

So they certainly didn't have a problem with killing per se. But murderers, those who were within the bounds of frith (the laws of a community) who preyed and killed their own people for no good reason WOULD be considered as 'bad' people. And in those cases they would be punished, either with a financial penalty, exiled (permanently or for a set period of time), or would be executed.

We know that in death, ancient heathens believed they went to any of a number of places:

Hel - simply put is the place of the dead. Etymologically it's believed this roots to simply the word for grave. As the place where the dead reside. It has no connotations of good or evil in and of itself.
But within hel there are 2 places known for where those who committed evil in life (oathbreakers, murders, etc.) were known to go:


Nifolhel - where those who have committed evil go
Nastrond/possibly also Wyrmsele (in OE)- where the most evil are sent
Battle-slain - if not evil go to Valhalla or Sessrumnir

Vingolf (according to Snorri some of Odin's dead go here instead of Valhalla, but it may refer to a hall hosted by the Goddesses instead... this one is unclear).

Those who die at sea - go to Ran

Geofon (aka Gefion/Gefjon) - takes maidens

And that's only the places and/or Gods/Goddesses I remember off the top of my head. I seem to think there are more halls that are said to play host to the dead. But what this shows to us is that5 there was a concept of good and evil in the culture... but it's NOT synomous with what you might find in let's say Christianity. The ruling wisdom was that so long as you behaved appropriately within the laws, morals and ethics of your community that you are in the clear. If you were traveling, and as aguest did killed a host without due cause... even if they were outside your community this was considered bad etiquette and form.

Each heathen must make their own choice. But many will look to the ethical pieces of advice and wisdom in the Havamal, as well as the legal codes that survive from many of the ancient groups such as Icelandic, various Anglo-Saxon laws, etc. to make an informed decision.

But once you've joined the military (especially if you were not conscripted), then as a soldier you must do so by the guidelines of what you've been taught by your government via your branch of military service, including things like the Geneva convention. If you were conscripted into service, then it to my mind is the responsibility of an individual to make any ethical protestations clear before you ever get close to the field of battle where this may be a consideration.

Really, what the bottom line comes to is this: what is frithful, or lawful, for your community (although communtiy in this case comprises national identity + your local city/state identity + your religious community).

And remember the 'religion' never says anything like thou shalt not kill. Really it left it to individual communities to codify their own laws for such things. Although our religion does say if you see evil, to speak out and act out against it.

[Reinhilde]

Thanks so much wyrd dottir :)

Yeah I've been going through different translations of the Havamal searching for advice on this particular issue. It's amazing how much you can go back to it, and just see things that you didn't before. Amazing.

After advice from the military themselves and my family, at this stage I will not persue a career in the reserves. However, this has definately been interersting and confronting to think about and I'm sure I'll be pondering this for many months.

[wyrd_dottir]

You're welcome. :)

It's nice when my past research and knowledge is useful to somebody! :)

[AsatruarMarc]

I thought I'd weigh in on this for you R.

I'm a serving member of the Armed Forces, and am curently deployed (though I am at home on leave at the moment). You should take what Wyrd Dottir has to say to heart-we have priciples that can guide you through the tough parts of ANY decsion you may have to make on foreign soil.

I personally have no heart ache with the services I provide for my country overseas-after all, even a farmer would have been expected to come to the defense of his or her Chieftain.

I wish you all the best in your possible future decisions:thumbsup: