Forgiveness?

[Raevyn]

When have you forgiven, and has it helped you? Is there someone you would forgive now if you could? Is there a reason where, you'd forgive the person, but you're afraid to disrupt their life or call attention to it? When is forgiveness *not* constructive? When is it just said to get someone to leave you alone? Is forgiveness always "divine"?

Today and yesterday I've been realizing the power of forgiveness, not only how it might affect others, but how it affects myself. I've been realizing how ma'at it can be to let the feelings of hurt, anger, and blame go, and how when you let go of the past (not forget it, or even necessarily forgive, as much as accept it happened and move on) it gives you that Zep Tepi - the new beginning, where everything is possible and all hope exists.

Forgiveness doesn't mean saying "it's ok, you never screwed up, let's act like nothing happened", it means accepting the past, letting it go, and moving on. You don't have to become best friends again with someone who has hurt you, because maybe the time for the friendship has passed, but you can look on it and say "well at some points we both forgot to be ma'at, we both made mistakes, but we can move on". It doesn't mean forgetting what happened, or pretending it never did, but moving on from it and chalking it up to learning and growing.

Also in Kemet, with the Zep Tepi, there's the idea that it's ok to screw up something. There's a responsibility to find ma'at, and doing so guides our lives, but in the end ma'at works itself out. So even if you screw something up, in the end it just meant ma'at was longer to get to, and that's only resulted in hardship for those who haven't been ma'at. Netjeru forgives.

When Sekhmet almost destroyed mankind, she was ashamed, but the Netjeru still loved her and wanted her back. Djehuti was sent out to bring her home. Even though she'd screwed up by letting her wrath get away from her, ma'at was served in the end, and for that she was forgiven.

So, as I've rambled on and on :D I'm taking time to forgive everything that's happened. Every time I perceived an attack, everytime someone hurt me, I forgive them for it. Everytime someone said something wrong, or didn't choose the best action, I forgive them for it. At the same time I forgive myself for all the screwups, and I release them.

If you're reading this you might know I'm talking about you, or you might have no idea what I'm talking about. At any rate, feel free to discuss your own perceptions, beliefs, and memories involving forgiveness.

[Danustouch]

Wow..this is a tough subject for me. Sometimes, I feel that certain things cannot be forgiven, until the situation is resolved in one way or another. Either the person realizes they were wrong, apologizes, or you each move on from eachother. THEN there can be forgiveness. But..i guess my point in this thinking, is that when some painful situation is going on, sometimes, what is needed is a "Change" ANY change, in order for forgiveness to occur. Whether it takes the form of an apology, mutual apology, or simply taking space from eachother, some sort of difference needs to occur. If not...and the situation is still happening, the wounds are still too open, and far too painful. It's like a cut that was stitched up. The skin needs to heal back together, before the stitches and the bandage can be removed.

Another part of me says that forgiveness should always be the goal. Unfortunately, I often fall short of that goal. Yes, I agree that forgiving doesn't mean forgetting, or even trying to be friends with the person...but simply trying to air it out, and let it go. To not hold onto it any longer.

Sometimes forgiveness to me, can only be found in a "turning away" from the person, and then turning my thoughts away, in time as well.

One thing that helps me, is that for a while, I will just tune the person out of my thoughts, as if I never even knew them. I will do this for as long as it takes, until suddenly one day, that first moment they pop into my head doesn't hurt, or make me angry anymore. Then... I know I've reached the point where I can forgive.

The thing is..what do you do with it once you know? Call them/write to them out of the blue to tell them? Sometimes, I think that's almost counter productive. Depending on the argument which occurred, one party might still feel as if they've done nothing wrong. And just saying.."I just called to say I forgive you". might come across as an attack. Or pompous. I've had people do that to me, and I take a moment, and take a breath, and beat down that instinct to say.."Forgive me for WHAT?" and just say..."Thank you. And I forgive you too.". And I mean it. Whole heartedly. I may still feel that I am innocent, and the other person was guilty. But.. I can also say..."Okay, we probably both screwed up somewhere. Let's not argue about all of the details, and just release eachother".

Boy..talk about rambling ;)

[Semele]

I always try to forgive as quickly as possible because it makes me feel better. I guess sometimes it could be considered non-constructive to tell someone you forgive them if they are continuing to harm you. However you don't have to tell them either.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Depending on the argument which occurred, one party might still feel as if they've done nothing wrong. And just saying.."I just called to say I forgive you". might come across as an attack. Or pompous.

*nods* I know of at least one person who still refuses to admit she had any part of it - she says "I know I screwed up too" but then everything is "well you did this, and you did that first, and you only did it becaus of this and that and I can't help it". If the person is still making up excuses or apologies, or still feels so justified in their ways that they "didn't do anything wrong" there's no point in offering forgiveness.

At the same time, we're always told to "forgive and forget", and I think that tends to harbour resentment. Some people feel so obligated to extend the hand and say it's ok, when in reality maybe nothing was solved, and they still harbour resentment. In some cases they just want to feel better (which isn't to say it's bad to feel better by forgiving at all, but I mean if you don't really forgive the person and just want to feel better about yourself because you were the "bigger person"), well then what worth does that forgiveness have?

You also brought up another point, in saying "what do you do", for me. Sometimes what happens, though you forgive for it, you can't forget. In one case, this person I know - it's not that they did anything really horrible, that's not why I'm still not friends with them, it's that they still won't admit everything went wrong and that it doesn't just go away and be ok again. Once you've been hurt a lot by someone, you just may not be able to open up your heart and trust them again. Or, you've just grown apart, or the argument was about fundamental beliefs that won't change. Sometimes things just can't be "ok" between you again, and you don't want to even try going down that avenue. This person I forgive, but what I've seen in the past is that they think forgiveness just means you forget about it and pretend it never happened, so I probably won't tell them.

[Armitage]

I sometimes wish I didn't feel the need to forgive so quickly. It makes me feel (and seem, I guess) weak, or like a pushover. Sometimes it seems like that part of me is a big sign saying 'Hey, it's ok to screw me over! I'll forgive you!'

[Saphra]

I have a bad habit of forgiving everyone really easily, I need to learn to be so non-forgiving sometimes and make the person I'm mad at come to me. I say I'm sorry even when I'm not, and act like I am just because I don't want everyone mad at me. I don't know, maybe I need more of a backbone.

[Mnemosyne]

Me too, Saphra! I have the habit of forgiving people to easily- mainly because I want things to be peachy again. Hey, what can I say, I have a good heart! But my forgiving heart gets me into to trouble. Before I know it, the person whom I just forgave is making the same mistake again.

When you forgive someone, should you be certain that they are genuinely apologetic? I suppose that my problem is that the person just says that they are sorry for a given situation and really don't mean it. Or perhaps I'm just a naive woman. I should give more time for the wounds to heal after an event and take more time when considering to accept an apology.

[MzNeko]

Forgive and Forget?!?

I'll forgive, sure - but forget? Not bloody likely!

I come from the school of "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I think that I really do forgive - feelings of bitterness, hurt, anger do go away over time. However, I'm not tremendously likely to lend money a 2nd time to someone who's stiffed me before.

[Stacy]

Originally posted by MzNeko
Forgive and Forget?!?

I'll forgive, sure - but forget? Not bloody likely!

Exactly!

Everyone deserves a second chance, but for the third one I have to give a long and serious thought..

[ChelleOfShadows]

Life is a wheel. It continually turns and come back onto itself. Call it Kharma, the Wheel of Time, the Rule of Three or just plain old an eye for an eye. Whatever name you wish to give it, there is no changing what occurs.

To hold hatred, anger, judgement or malice in your heart does you no good. You are only hurting yourself and keeping your Chakras in a whirl which is not only physically unhealthy but mentally unhealthy as well.

Forgiveness is the first step in the healing process of growing and maturing. To forgive and to forget and to pronounce such out loud for the Goddess to hear is essential in your spiritual growth. Once you have said you have forgiven someone, and placed it in your heart to do so, you have opened your heart up to the Goddess to bring healing into it. This path is a path of choice, and unless you CHOOSE to open your heart to forgiveness and therefore to healing, how can you expect healing to occur.

It is the other persons loss if they choose otherwise. Once you have chosen forgivness, light a candle for them, raise a chant, say a prayer, whatever you choose. However in doing so you are the better person and you are letting the Goddess work on not only your heart but theirs.

I spent many years of my life holding grudges, plotting revenge and hoping for retribution. It only brought me face to face with a hell you cannot imagine, me who was raised in the path. Once I matured enough to realize the truth and accept it, I have truly started becoming the person I always wanted to be.

Myst, I know not what your situation is, however, on this trust me and the hardship I have endured taking the wrong trails pretending to run parallel to the true path. I have learned the hard way and was shown a vision of such beauty I was awestruck. When I consulted the cards the only answer given was forgiveness. This was many years ago and I am still making up for my spite and malice. Do not let the anger go to far. For the making up is hard.

Brightest Blessings and Happy New Year!

[Danustouch]

*nods* I know of at least one person who still refuses to admit she had any part of it - she says "I know I screwed up too" but then everything is "well you did this, and you did that first, and you only did it becaus of this and that and I can't help it". If the person is still making up excuses or apologies, or still feels so justified in their ways that they "didn't do anything wrong" there's no point in offering forgiveness

Yep. That's why I think that there are some situations which just need to be labeled "irreconcileable differences", and said goodbye to. There are always two sides to every story. And often times, one person really DOESNT feel they did x, y, or z. Sometimes, it's a matter of two separate perspectives, looking at the same thing. When people are very differen't from eachother, and hold differen't core beliefs, and differen't communication methods, or when they've had very differen't experiences in their lives, this can often contribute to a stalemate in the problem. One person see's the problem one way, because of past experiences with this person, or others that they may have had. And the other person has NO idea where that perception is coming from, and see's it entirely differently. Therefore, One person feels justified in saying "You did this" while the other person feels quite sure, and justified in saying "no I did not. And I can't apologize for something I didn't do...I can only apologize that you saw it that way, and that it hurt you". If that isn't enough, if the trust isn't there, if it has been destroyed, then there is usually no sense in continuing the friendship. File it away as a memory. In those situations, Forgiveness doesn't mean mending fences. Or building bridges. It means forgiving enough, to know that you are just too differen't to proceed any further, and that that is allright, and you wish the other person no ill.

[Magestya]

Originally posted by Armitage
I sometimes wish I didn't feel the need to forgive so quickly. It makes me feel (and seem, I guess) weak, or like a pushover. Sometimes it seems like that part of me is a big sign saying 'Hey, it's ok to screw me over! I'll forgive you!'

This is a bit of how I feel as well. I personally have been run over so many times, and on the same hand know that others have as well. But I also feel that my love for people is so intense sometimes that forgivness is automatic. It takes time to get over situations, but after thinking about them long and hard, forgivness isn't just for the other person, its for you too. Its a way for all parties involved to heal.
Its in my nature to love and help others and I do believe that you know people for a certain amount of time, and then when you've reached a certain point the relationship can't grow anymore. Maybe it's not supossed to. It's like the seasons we live, like the wheel. Things are born, they grow, then eventually they die off and are reborn again. There's always hope... that forgivness given can bring forth rebirth.

"When have you forgiven, and has it helped you?" I've forgiven others, but not yet myself. It's easier to forgive others before yourself, because it's harder to live with yourself then it is others.
"Is there someone you would forgive now if you could?" IMO I think almost everyone has someone to forgive, to some it's comes easier, and to others it doesn't. In other words, yes I do have someone to forgive.
"Is there a reason where, you'd forgive the person, but you're afraid to disrupt their life or call attention to it?" Oh definately. But that's where fear comes in to perspective as well. Especially if you know that other person is extra angry, or is being effected by something out of your hands to help. I also think ego gets in the way on every side. If I walked up to 'someone' and said 'I forgive you' I'm sure they'de be totally ripped beyond words, but I also think that's due to the ego. I think if you're not careful it can seem like an attack, like all the blame is being put on one party. This is why its difficult to bring attention to forgivness at times. But if you know the other person is mature and strong enough to talk about it, then I think it would be fine. You should know that person if they are someone who has affected your life so much. You should know if they can handle that or not. So again it would be the situation, or the party involved.
"When is forgiveness *not* constructive?" I think forgivness is not constructive if you truly do not forgive deep inside.
"When is it just said to get someone to leave you alone?" Personally, then I don't think its should be done. It seems to me that forgivness shouldn't happen if you're only doing it to get rid of someone. That's not good intentions on that other person... and its not the greatest intentions on oneself either.
"Is forgiveness always "divine"?" I think it can be. Giving someone forgivness, or forgiving oneself is devine. When you're hurt, and when another person is hurt, I don't think it helps at all to hang onto the hurt and anger. It puts a stunt in growth for both parties.

I agree Reavyn, forgivness isn't saying "it's ok, you never screwed up, let's act like nothing happened", it's accepting what went wrong, learning from your own mistakes, and those of others. Forgivness is almost like admitting there was a problem, realizing your part in it, and accepting the end results, but not letting them overcome you, especially in some cases.

I don't feel forgivness is as hard to give as it is as hard to take. Forgivness should be given only of true heart and soul, not just to get someone off your back. Forgivness is part of healing. Forgivness is growth. I also feel that telling someone you forgive them is a good start to accepting other people, and understanding that everyone is different. Because you forgive someone, doesn't make you a bigger or better person, because in reality, we are all equal... just different. Handling situations the best we can. I also feel that if you feel you can forgive someone, then maybe you still hold them in your heart, even if things can't move on... you obviously have a lot of love to share.

Blessings,
Magestya

[Danustouch]

I think its become harder for me to forgive, in the last year, then ever before in my life. Except in EXTREME cases in the past, I was able to forgive. But...in the last year or so, I've gone through so much (real life stuff) that i've found it much harder to forgive. I think sometimes, it's wiser to wait before you forgive. Somethings, you can't, or shouldn't forgive too soon. Every emotion has its purpose. Anger, for instance, serves as a protective barrier, much of the time. I've found that times when I've forgiven too soon, let go too soon, it's been a huge mistake, because i've let my guard down. To me, I can't do the "I forgive, but won't forget" thing too easily. When I really forgive, I'm trying to start over with a clean slate. In some situations, you CANT do that. You can't start over with a clean slate. To do so, leaves yourself open to further harm.

I'm going to throw this out there, as an example, and hope that I don't suffer for it......

My husband did some pretty unforgiveable things, IMO, over the summer. I was extremely hurt, emotionally, and spiritually, by his actions. I WANTED to forgive him, but there was only one problem...the things that he did this summer, were similar to other things he'd done in the past. Only magnified. The things he'd done in the past, infuriated me, hurt me, made me feel dead in side, and aching. But..I forgave him. And I started over with a clean slate, believing his apologies, and the times he asked for forgiveness were genuine. So..I wiped it away, and cleared the slate, and forgave. I forgave too soon. I didn't keep my guard up. I didn't walk away...and perhaps, I should have. This summer, he did something that was ten times as bad as the things that he had done previously, which i'd forgiven. I can't help but think that if I hadn't been so quick to forgive the last time, he would have realized I meant business, and one of two things would have happened....I would have left, and started life over, never having to endure the pain that I suffered this summer...

Or... he would have thought twice about doing what he did this summer.

Either way, I would have been spared a great deal of pain.

Sometimes, saying .."I can't forgive yet," or "I can't wipe the slate clean" or "I can't just start over" isn't about Ego. It's about realizing that this could be an unchangeable pattern in the person. And a refusal to accept any more of it.

Had I held on to my anger a little bit longer the first time, and stood my ground, it may have made him think a little bit harder. Appreciate me a little bit more, realize that he couldn't abuse my emotions like that, and keep me around. And even if he didn't...i probably would have been better off, being alone, then dealing with the pain I did this summer. But..I forgave him, too soon. And the pattern repeated itself, and gained in force. I would have probably forgiven him eventually, had I left him, and totally released it. But..when I chose to stay in the relationship, forgive him, trust him, and have hope for our marriage, too soon, i unconciously let myself in for a great deal more pain. I let my guard down. I believed him too easily.

Now.....after this summer, I'm still with him. But he knows that I haven't really forgiven him. And he also knows that I do NOT really trust him.


I think that both of us keep hoping that one day the wound will heal, and that I'll really be able to forgive him, and trust him, and wipe the slate clean.

But for now, I'm keeping my guard up. Refusing to wipe the slate clean. Any little thing that makes me doubt him, even for a moment, I find myself getting extremely angry at. And when he doesn't understand my reaction, I automatically bring up the past, and compare what he's doing at that moment, to that thing he'd done in the past. Just so that he can understand where the pain is coming from, where the anger is coming from. And so that he KNOWS that this time I mean buisness. I'm not going to have the wool pulled over my eyes another time. I'm not going to forgive, or forget so soon, that I fail to remain on my guard. In the past, I've believed in him too easily. Trusted him too much. And kept getting hurt, over and over. Because of that trust. It won't happen again. I've been naieve in my past. Too trusting of others, too willing to accept things, and take crap, and believe people. My mother says that I'm the most gullible person she's ever met. And to be honest, I HAVE trusted far too easily, SO many people, in my past. And been hurt for it. Now I feel that it's time to smarten up. To realize that I DO have to look out for myself. Because I'm the only person who WILL. That I can't give trust blindly, nor offer forgiveness blindly in every situation.

Time is the only thing that can bring forgiveness. In time, if my husband proves that he is WORTH that forgiveness..perhaps I can honestly offer it. But at this point, I can't. I can be with him, and give him the chance to really prove he's sincere, to some extent...but in other words..now he has to prove himself to me. Repeatedly, until I feel secure. If I ever CAN feel secure. Then...I may be able to wipe the slate clean. Not now though...not yet.

[Mithrea]

This is going to be a very unpopular viewpoint. Nevertheless . . .

I don't believe in forgiveness. I don't accept it from people and I don't give it out. If I forgive someone, then what has really happened? It changes nothing--or rather any change it makes isn't real. I am responsible only to myself and I don't need anyone to forgive me for anything I've done--whether that be a person or a deity. Ultimately no one can know my motivations for anything that I do. No one can put themselves in my shoes and understand anything I've said or done in their proper context so they are in no position to judge. To forgive implies a judgement. If you forgive someone, you imply that what they did was wrong and I don't believe anyone is in a position to make those moral decisions for anyone else.

[Raevyn]

Chelle said..
To hold hatred, anger, judgement or malice in your heart does you no good. You are only hurting yourself and keeping your Chakras in a whirl which is not only physically unhealthy but mentally unhealthy as well.

Thanks Chelle, I agree!


Danus said..
In those situations, Forgiveness doesn't mean mending fences. Or building bridges. It means forgiving enough, to know that you are just too differen't to proceed any further, and that that is allright, and you wish the other person no ill.

As Xois would say, word!


Danus said..
now he has to prove himself to me.

I totally understand that. There's only so many times you can just have blind trust and faith.


Mithrea said..If I forgive someone, then what has really happened?

For some people it's a way to accept that things happened and let them go - it's a way to say "yes I screwed up here, and you did, but that's ok, I've learned from it". For me it's a) admission that something went wrong (and you'd be surprised at how some people refuse to admit when things go wrong and want to hold onto the facade that it's all ok) and b) acceptance and release.


Ultimately no one can know my motivations for anything that I do. No one can put themselves in my shoes and understand anything I've said or done in their proper context so they are in no position to judge.

I think on one hand forgiveness is *about* admitting we can't judge for others - we don't know why they did it, or understand

If anything, we've accepted that they were doing what they thought was best, and letting it go. In some cases, as Danus mentioned, you realize there's just some fundamental difference in belief, and that's all there is to it.