Magical Ethics

[Rick]

Hey, ya'll, how ya'll doin'?

What does everyone think about using magical means to aid someone without that person's permission or knowledge, expressed or implied? Is this right or wrong? And let's take this further than "and it harm none". What are the moral & ethical ramifications of using magic in someone's behalf without their knowing? What if failing to do so leaves them in grave peril?

OK, my 2 cents worth (remember, I am an Odinsman; I see the world a little differently than most). I take care of my own. I could no more stand idly by if a loved one needed help (magically) than I could will myself to stop breathing. It's pretty automatic (the effort comes in NOT acting, sometimes). And I can't truly say that I always stop to consider the consequences (and, of course, there are ALWAYS consequences-my, but don't we give that word a negative feel?). But I've learned to trust my instincts/Divine guidance/etc.

Well, come on, everybody, jump on in here.

[Mairwen]

I agree with you, Rick. :D

FWIW, I am an Elder in a Tradition without a Rede or a 3-Fold Law ~ we are followers of "Knowing what needs to be done and doing it". ;)

[Fawn]

I have to go along with you all I have done binding spells on molestors, rapists, murderers, and predators. It is necessary for I do not believe anyone truly wishes to be any of these things its a mental illness to me. When I do these bindings I always ask that the victim(s) as well as the violator be healed.
And any who would harm mine--I would definitely react FIRST then think LATER!!!

[Vinga]

Ok I'll be the oddball and will have to disagree. I thought about it by putting myself in the shoes of the unknowing party, I would not want anyone else performing any magic, spells or whathaveyou on my behalf without my knowing and consent. If someone offered then chances are I would accept, but at least it would be my decision and I would have the opportunity to decline if I didn't think the spell would be in my best interest. I don't think anyone has the right to meddle in other peoples lives without their expressed consent. If you feel like praying for whatever is in my best interest to happen, go right ahead, but please don't take it upon yourself to alter my direction no matter how good your intentions are.
JMHO :)

[Rick]

Isn't praying simply another way of manifesting one's will, or desires? Not just trying to split hairs, but wouldn't that be about the same?

[Emerald Sky]

I have to agree with Vinga. We all have our own paths to follow. If someone else performs a spell on us without our knowing, that could change our path and possibly cause us to miss a lesson that needed to be learned. If we were to consent to the spell and missed the lesson, it would still be our own doing... our own path.

[Mariposa De La Luna]

Originally posted by Rick
Isn't praying simply another way of manifesting one's will, or desires? Not just trying to split hairs, but wouldn't that be about the same?

It depends on who's praying and how. If you're just asking the Gods to help you, you're not necessarily expecting help or for it to go one way or another. If when you pray you visualize the outcome you want/expect, that is magick. So there are different types of prayer, the first more common to non-Pagans, the second more common to Pagans. So when you ask people to pray for you, you may get a mix of both. But if you pray for someone, or light a candle, do magick, etc., say for healing, and that person does not know it, the energy is wasted because they do not use it, do not know it is available. For a person familiar with magick/energy it may be different because they might be trying to pull in energy/visualize already, so are more receptive to sent energy.

I personally would not do more than light a candle for a person who asked for a prayer. If they asked for a spell, I would do it, but otherwise I wouldn't.

[Rick]

OK, let's mirk up the waters a little more.

What if it's your child that's ill? Act or not? Only beseech the Divine?

Also, someone posted earlier about "binding" (I took it to mean "restraining"). If the energy is wasted because the person(s) being "bound" don't know it's there, then how can it work?

PS This is great! So many opinions filling my little mind, so little time!

[Emerald Sky]

Originally posted by Rick
OK, let's mirk up the waters a little more.

What if it's your child that's ill? Act or not? Only beseech the Divine?



Oh, sure, make me *think* !!

For me, it's usually a whole different ball game if my kids are involved. :) Since my kids are under the age of 18 I'm their guardian so I guess I would be the one to make the decision for them. ;) For my two year old, I'd still ask her. She's a wise, little soul and would completely know what I was meaning if I asked her if she wanted me to cast a spell for her!

[Rick]

Originally posted by Emerald Sky
We all have our own paths to follow. If someone else performs a spell on us without our knowing, that could change our path and possibly cause us to miss a lesson that needed to be learned.

Again, it may just be my "sidewise" outlook, but there have been times when I am certain I have been directed to be the "instrument" of bringing home another's lesson (generally, it seems, when the lesson is "there are consequences to your actions, you don't live in a void").

Or I could just be delusional. :D

[Emerald Sky]

Originally posted by Rick


Again, it may just be my "sidewise" outlook, but there have been times when I am certain I have been directed to be the "instrument" of bringing home another's lesson (generally, it seems, when the lesson is "there are consequences to your actions, you don't live in a void").

Or I could just be delusional. :D

Nah, not delusional. If you're *certain* that you're to be used as a tool of the universe, then by all means, you *should* do what is necessary. I guess I personally just haven't felt that calling yet. Maybe I will one day, and my opinion will change.

Thanks for the chance to ponder these things. ;)

[Fawn]

With my children in a heartbeat and I posted that when I do a binding I also do a healing for all involved.
Sorry but I am sticking to my opnion on this.

[Rick]

Seems to me if you're putting out positive energy, in this instance, to stop and/or heal a hurtful action, ya can't go wrong. I'm sticking to your opinion, too. :D But I am also giving consideration to all the opinions expressed here. Good show, everyone!

That doesn't mean the thread is necessarily finished. :) We'll keep the light on for ya...

[EasternPriest]

Pray for me?...please do:)....with the intention that the Divine Will be made manifest in the situation.

Cast a spell for me without my knowledge or permission?.......no thank you :(...for to do so would be an intrusion on my life, whether you intend it that way or not.

As for my children, I am their Guardian in this physical realm.

[Dria El]

Originally posted by Rick
What does everyone think about using magical means to aid someone without that person's permission or knowledge, expressed or implied?

Well, it's a complicated issue and I doubt I could give any definitive answers unless faced with a specific situation but my general answer is 'no, I wouldn't do it cus it's wrong.'


Is this right or wrong? And let's take this further than "and it harm none". What are the moral & ethical ramifications of using magic in someone's behalf without their knowing? What if failing to do so leaves them in grave peril?

I'd have to say that interfering with someone else's karma is absolutely wrong. We can't possibly know the long term ramifications of what our interference would bring.

Let's take an example from a previous post. Someone said that they would do a binding on predators, etc. Let me tell you a story.

Once upon a time there were 3 souls. One day they were hanging out in the Summerland (heaven, whatever...) and they started to discuss their next lives and the lessons each of them still had to learn. Two of the souls were a little ahead of the other one and decided to help their friend to catch up. They talked about it, agreed, and in turn, each were born.

Now, living life according to 'the plan' the first becomes one of those horrible people and the second and third become father and son. Life rolls on.

When the youngest is about 8 years old, the first goes about the chosen plan and kidnaps, molests, and kills kids.

Someone, decides to take action and without hesitation does a binding on him. They do such a good job that he never hurts another kid which prevents him from taking his next victim, the son.

Now, I'm sure that most of you would think that this would be a good thing. You've stopped this filthy predator. He will NEVER touch another kid. Right?

Let me change the story ever so slightly.

It starts out the same as above with the exception of one little thing. No binding.

He goes on and takes his next victim, the boy of 8.

The father grief stricken. He searched high and low for his son. One day he found part of him and knew that his beloved son was dead. He'd been molested and mutilated.

But instead of wallowing in grief and feeling sorry for himself. He decided to do something about it. He would fight against predators like that until the day he died!

From that day forward he worked very hard to raise awareness. He helped to enact legislation and new laws. He helped to start programs to find other missing kids. He never stopped fighting. He made it alot harder to get away with crimes of all sorts. From his humble beginnings, other's decided to help. People got together, criminals were caught, and even some kids were found. Things were getting better, even if it's just a little bit.

I know this is an extreme story but are you seeing where I'm going with this?

Just something to think about...

Dria El

BTW, the story is based on a real story.

[Semele]

Ok now this is a little different than doing a reading about someone. I don't think that I would do any type of spell on someone without thier knowledge. I could only make one exception for a binding spell to prevent someone from harming themself. I guess that really wouldn't be against thier will either though because I would tell them. Sounds strange but if I am concerned for their welfare it will be someone close to me who knows who and what I am all about. I would try to help them every way possible, including prayer, which I absolutely know is Magik when done correctly. If I can't help them that way then I would bind them...right to their face. Maybe the sheer act of it will open thier eyes.

As for my child/husband...absolutley I do magik. I ask for healing and guidance...above all guidance. I pray each day that my son begins to hear his guides and follow thier advice. And I know he will! As for casual friends from work...if they are ill or in need of prayer I will tell them they are in my prayers. That, I believe, is sufficient enough. No need explaining that their prayer may look very different than mine. I may kneel like they do but I may light a candle or whatever I need to do. But I am still concentrating on sending healing energy to them and asking for guidance for them to help themself. All is magik!

Semele

[mol]

Originally posted by Semele
Ok now this is a little different than doing a reading about someone. I don't think that I would do any type of spell on someone without thier knowledge. I could only make one exception for a binding spell to prevent someone from harming themself. I guess that really wouldn't be against thier will either though because I would tell them. Sounds strange but if I am concerned for their welfare it will be someone close to me who knows who and what I am all about. I would try to help them every way possible, including prayer, which I absolutely know is Magik when done correctly. If I can't help them that way then I would bind them...right to their face. Maybe the sheer act of it will open thier eyes.

As for my child/husband...absolutley I do magik. I ask for healing and guidance...above all guidance. I pray each day that my son begins to hear his guides and follow thier advice. And I know he will! As for casual friends from work...if they are ill or in need of prayer I will tell them they are in my prayers. That, I believe, is sufficient enough. No need explaining that their prayer may look very different than mine. I may kneel like they do but I may light a candle or whatever I need to do. But I am still concentrating on sending healing energy to them and asking for guidance for them to help themself. All is magik!

Semele

She speaks. ;)

[Rick]

(I was wondering where I was...)

I am simply agog at the depth of thought expressed here, & nobody is ripping anybody else for having an opposing opinion! <sniff, wipes tear> Odin's Eye, I do love you people! :heartthro :sunny:

[Jazzmine]

Let me tell you a little true story. My son is 16 years old. I bought him a car last year. I asked him if I could put a protection pouch in his car to help keep him safe. He said he didn't want me to do that. Well, he only had his car for 3 months and he blew the head gasket. My husband and I got that fixed. One month later, he was driving behind a semi truck and the roads were very slick and icy and a snow storm was coming, anyway, a huge chunk of ice fell off the semi's back tires in front of him and he hit it and it threw him off the road and slammed his car into 2 trees. He was not injured in the accident, but his car was totalled. Although he was not injured in either incident, I still wonder if these things would have happened if I would have made him the pouch anyway, without his knowledge. He is still without a car and will have to buy the next one himself.

Any thoughts on that?

[Dria El]

Originally posted by Jazzmine
Let me tell you a little true story. My son is 16 years old. I bought him a car last year. I asked him if I could put a protection pouch in his car to help keep him safe. He said he didn't want me to do that. Well, he only had his car for 3 months and he blew the head gasket. My husband and I got that fixed. One month later, he was driving behind a semi truck and the roads were very slick and icy and a snow storm was coming, anyway, a huge chunk of ice fell off the semi's back tires in front of him and he hit it and it threw him off the road and slammed his car into 2 trees. He was not injured in the accident, but his car was totalled. Although he was not injured in either incident, I still wonder if these things would have happened if I would have made him the pouch anyway, without his knowledge. He is still without a car and will have to buy the next one himself.

Any thoughts on that?

It's possible (I believe anything is possible) but I still think it would be wrong though.

Dria El

[Rick]

Well, I would just velcro my kids to the ceiling 'til they take the charm... :rolleyes:

You can't feel badly if you offered protection that was turned down, & the results were less than desirable. You CAN say "I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!". ;)

Dria El is so very correct: this is a VERY complicated issue. That's why it so important to discuss it; not to try to sway anyone to our own points of view, but to hear & try to understand the points of view of others.

Keep up the good work!

[The Mad Vitiki]

to teach some one a lesson and there to hard heded to learn any other way. I say there is no reason not to teach them by magik...........................u do what u got to do
but just silly love spells on me well thats just pissis me off
if you want my love or my body just ask

what is unsaid is unknown

[BearDancing]

When my daughter was 2 yrs old she was sick with a fever, I was doing hands on healing for her and I was distinctively told...by her spirit guide.....She is capable of healing herself, that I am not to interfere.

Has anyone ever experienced anything like that?


Love and Respect FairieSpirit

[Jazzmine]

I have never experienced anything like that. It sounds like it was quite an event.

[Dria El]

Me either, but it sounds like it was a good thing you listened.

[Jazzmine]

I will still ask my sons permission. But I thought that was quite coincidental none the less.
He did recently ask me to mix him up something for his acne. I thought that was great. He's never wanted anything to do with that part of my life and I think it's wonderful that he asked. YAY!:D

[Emy]

Oki

doing magickal work without permission, hmmm sure, well don't do it to me without asking me if I want it, I can take care of myself, and if I want help I would ask... :) however, if someone I know is in trouble of some sort, and he/she has no knowledge of magick and therefor wouldn't think of doing something magical for him/herself, then I might consider to do so :) see it's different when it comes to others right ;)

Anyways it is hard just to stand by, doing nothing, but I try not to interfere to often, it may not be my place to interfere, like you said FairieSpirit your daughter had the ability to heal on her own, sometimes people have to handle things on there own... however, if a friend asks me for help, I would do my best to try and give it...

And I don't consider prayers the same as doing a ritual or a spell of somesort... however they do come from the same tree so to speak... but a in a prayer you don't necessarily envolve other energies than your own, but you often do that in a spell... Do you know how I mean?

Blessed be

[Rick]

Bump

[Dria El]

I'll second that bump!

Ok, I'm just being a smart-@$$! hehe

[Rick]

Bump

[EasternPriest]

"WE need the bump, gotta have the bump".....oh, music forum for that??..ok......:)

[Mairwen]

Who put the bump in the bumpdebumpdebump
Who put the ram in the ramalamadingdong?

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by Mairwen
Who put the bump in the bumpdebumpdebump
Who put the ram in the ramalamadingdong?

hmmm...almost sounds like adult forum........lol

[Myst]

We visited friends last night and they had Grease on for the toddler. So I was subjected to Grease. Twice. Blah.

[Rick]

How unethical of your hosts (he said, returning the thread to subject :D ).

[Myst]

What is the subject of this one anyway...? err :p

Oh now I know what it is and everyone's already said what they think and I think and so on so I have nothing constructive to add anyway...

[Rick]

...BTW... love your avatar...

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by EasternPriest
hmmm...almost sounds like adult forum........lol

*blush* :rolleyes:

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by WillowRaven
We visited friends last night and they had Grease on for the toddler. So I was subjected to Grease. Twice. Blah.

What's wrong with Grease? I snuck out of the house twice in the fourth grade to go see it! 8O

*sheepishly* But as an adult, I see how very unethical that was! :D

[Myst]

uhh I hate musicals.. ?

:)

[Rick]

...it's so realistic when they break into song & dance. We do it everyday in our house. Doesn't everyone?

[Mairwen]

At least I'm trying to save it. LOL! :D


But of course, Rick? Being honest (because it's the ethical thing to do), I have been known to burst into song for no apparent reason! And that's the truth! :D People say I have a song lyric for every occasion. More fun than a greeting card. :p

[Silver Venus]

LOL ~ Every morning in the shower ~ I have a little dance and sing :D

I cant belive I missed this thread first and second time around!
Im swaying to both sides, kind of ~ I believe in wishing people well and casting spells and prayers for them to help them and show your love for them ~ I do this as a regular blessing every week.... but ultimately I dont try and sort out any of their lifes ~ its their life and they have to sort out their own problems ~ If they ask me to cast a spell (has only happened twice) ofcourse I will but I never suggest or volunteer to do a spell for them. & I respect the same from people with me in mind.

I have already thought/found out (still dont know if Im right or not but trust my inner guide and my intution on this...) that someone has cast a spell on me ~ and I can tell you that its not a very nice feeling!

I dont agree with Love Spells at all, but the binding spells that were talked about earlier for rapists and murderers ~ To help them and ultimatley the victims is something that I think is very kind and respect ~ but again personally I would not take these on.. in fear of if something did go wrong..

I do believe in the three fold rule (I know not all do) and always cast with this in mind.

Blessed be :sunny:

[Kiya]

Got the thread back on track!

Me being rather new at this, I'll err on the side of caution - I'm happy saying prayers etc for people in my thoughts, but I wouldn't try to help magickally without their express permission - and possibly them signing a disclaimer!!!

PS Silver babes...... you mispelt cast and put cats!! Not excited about your two new kitties much then!!! LOL

[Rick]

Originally posted by Silver Venus
LOL ~ Every morning in the shower ~ I have a little dance and sing :D[B]

Now that's a visual...


[B]I cant belive I missed this thread first and second time around!
Im swaying to both sides, kind of ~ I believe in wishing people well and casting spells and prayers for them to help them and show your love for them ~ I do this as a regular blessing every week.... but ultimately I dont try and sort out any of their lifes ~ its their life and they have to sort out their own problems ~ If they ask me to cast a spell (has only happened twice) ofcourse I will but I never suggest or volunteer to do a spell for them. & I respect the same from people with me in mind.

I have already thought/found out (still dont know if Im right or not but trust my inner guide and my intution on this...) that someone has cast a spell on me ~ and I can tell you that its not a very nice feeling!

I dont agree with Love Spells at all, but the binding spells that were talked about earlier for rapists and murderers ~ To help them and ultimatley the victims is something that I think is very kind and respect ~ but again personally I would not take these on.. in fear of if something did go wrong..

I do believe in the three fold rule (I know not all do) and always cats with this in mind.

Blessed be :sunny:


A very sensible approach.

I wasn't gonna say anything about the 'cats' thing... :p

[Myst]

I don't know if when you bind someone you're too concerned with whether they want it or not. :)

If you want to do a healing or blessing spell for someone without asking you can send the energy to a spiritual well from which they can draw if their higher being desires, or from which energy can be directed to those who do need it and do want it. :)

[Rick]

... pooling positive energy... I like the concept...

[BrigitCayenne]

I think that if at all posible u should explain the situation and ask permission

[mato]

I have a hypathetical question... Suppose that a murderer was to come to you with a fatal condition (heart failure) and ask for a healing. This particular case you see is easily cured, just an 'oil change' so to speak, but without it he will die... Do you heal someone who has killed and say that you only saw a man in need: Or do you let him die and say that you couldnt intervine with karma? Difficult question, Do you follow that medical oath (hepacatic sp) when healing and as a witch, or do you only follow the reed (harm none but it says nothing about helping, or atleast the ones i've seen dont) and heal on your own terms. In other words if you are healing do you heal all that are suffering and want help or do you just heal those that you dont see any karmic links to. Theres also the whole thing with the relieving someones fate or taking on someones fate which comes in here, if you heal them are you then responsible for that life and his actions for the rest of your life? Are you two bonded at that point?

(I hate to use this but...) Is that what could be being depicted in the Jessus myth???

[Myst]

First, a heart condition is never "an oil change", for one thing. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

But it's your hypothetical situation, so I'll go with it and pretend it is. :) So.

Second, no, I don't do healings for anyone I don't love and/or care deeply about.

Assuming I did, I would never do a healing for a stranger. Oh yeah that's partially because I don't know them and don't want my energy possibly entangled in theirs (so I'm standoffish ;)), but also because I don't believe in helping any old joe that goes by. People go through life learning lessons, maybe this guy's lesson is to die now. Who knows. I'm not implicating my energy in mucking about with that.

I don't see it at all connected to Jesus.

[mato]

That he took on the collective karma of the people he healed and suffered the pain that he healed in them??? You dont see that?

[Myst]

Originally posted by mato
That he took on the collective karma of the people he healed and suffered the pain that he healed in them??? You dont see that?

'Fraid not. One guy on a cross doesn't quite equate to everyone he's said to have healed.

[mato]

eh just thinking online, nothing new...

[Joy]

My answer would be yes, I would help someone like this. This is the kind of person that needs healing before he can cause more damage to anyone else. All diseases are caused by wrong thinking leading to wrong actions and diseases. By healing this person it is posible to heal the root cause of his murderous actions. I have seen it heal a person from being abusive, and this is pretty much on the same lines just more severe. When I do healing work, I heal the root causes for the illness, not just the illness itself. To me that would be a waste of time. The other way the lesson is learned and the ailment is healed.
Hope this made sense, it is pretty late. lol

[Rick]

Originally posted by mato <SNIP>Do you follow that medical oath (hepacatic sp) when healing and as a witch, or do you only follow the reed (harm none)<SNIP
Why would you think that any one (witch or not) who isn't a board certified physician, dentist, psychiatrist, etc. has taken (or is otherwise bound by) the Hippocratic Oath? Just curious...

[story]

actually the mentioning of Jesus remninded me of a bit from Mark (maybe). Jesus is doing his thing, and a large crowd forms around him. Several men who were casrryinga paralyzed friend of thiers saw that they couldn't get thru the crowd, so, they got a bunch of ropes and lowered the paralyzed guy froma roof. Jesus, touched by thier faith, forgives the mans sins, and THEN heals his paralysis.
Seems to me taht the order in which he did these two things are important. He was , I think, setting things in perspective. He was saying that a mans spiritual (or psychological or whatever) health was more important that his physical.
In the case you mention, ther mental disorders of the murderer are probably a higher priority that his heart failure. Hey- if you have the talent to take care of CHF, you could probably knock out a few serious emotional problems no sweat.
just a thought.

[Rick]

bump

[The Mad Vitiki]

some time you have to teach some one a lesson and if it takes magik to to this then so be it. but if some one cast some cahos my way. I look at there life and ask can they deal with more miss foruten whene they manifest bad things into there life. can they handle more? hope this makes sence
ramble on bother rambel on

[Lavender]

Interesting that you should bump this back up, Rick.

My son has been bothered by a bully at school for a while now. When it started, we sat down & talked & he decided that he wanted to handle it. I spoke with his teacher & she agreed & would keep an eye on the situation. My son did quite well & the bully eventually became a friend when they found out they had a lot of similar interests. But unfortunately, the bully's friend didn't like the two of them becoming friends & started picking on my son. This one was a lot tougher. this second bully got 2 other of his friends as well. I ended up putting a mirror spell around my son. That to let all energies be reflected back to the sender. For good positive energies to reflect good positive energies to be sent back & for bad negative thoughts & energies to be returned likewise. I also put into the spell to give my son the strength & wisdom to guide him through each situation. I also put a lot of my love into it so that he may feel that I'm with him if he comes across a bad situation.

The long & short of it was that bad things started happening to the new bullies. They were getting into trouble & were caught more often. Usually things that had nothing to do with my son's situation. One of the bullies picked on my son so badly that he was sent home. Another one slapped my son but we couldn't do anthing about it because there were no witnesses. But 2 days later, they were all expelled out of the class for something that was totally unrelated to my son.

I have no regrets about this spell. The choice was up to these kids. The energies returne were mirrored of what they put out. They were warned not to pick on others. Unfortunately for them, they picked on a kid whose mother is a witch.

Edited to say: I'm not wiccan & don't follow the rede. My first inclination was to do a lot worse.

[Myst]

I would've done the same Wildchild.

[Rick]

...yeah, I probably would have gone with the first inclination, & done much worse... I believe you did well to show so much restraint.

[Lavender]

:D Bullies of the world: Beware!

It's amazing that surge of angry energies & what you REALLY want to do with it! But though I don't follow the rede, I do have my own code of ethics. The hardest thing was to do a spell that would keep my son from harm & yet at the same time, let him deal with the situation AND not smacking those bullies with a magickal baseball bat! :D

[Laiste]

Originally posted by Rick
Isn't praying simply another way of manifesting one's will, or desires? Not just trying to split hairs, but wouldn't that be about the same?

It certainly is...using magick just enhances the results, in my honest opinion! I don't see anything wrong with using magick to help others without thier permission. I wouldn't call someone and tell them I was doing a binding spell on them...so why would I have to inform someone when I'm trying to help them.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Laiste
I don't see anything wrong with using magick to help others without thier permission. I wouldn't call someone and tell them I was doing a binding spell on them...so why would I have to inform someone when I'm trying to help them.

a) people sometimes get sick to learn something
b) people sometimes get sick because of karma
c) people sometimes would rather stay sick then let you do "that magick crap" on them (sad but true)
d) people sometimes don't want your help, or don't want others mucking about with their energy
e) a binding spell is negative, obviously you're ticked off at the person and don't care what they think about it. a healing spell is positive
f) it's possible to make a well of healing energy and let someone access it if they want to, or, if the goddess desires, She will give them that energy
g) I wouldn't do any magick on someone I cared about without their permission, to me it's like going through someone's bag without asking
h) some people want to handle their problems by themself (count me in on that one a few times)
i) some people don't want relative strangers playing around with their aura or energy (goes along with those women who hate it when strangers who pass by pat their pregnant belly, just a bit of an infringment on personal space for some)
j) when you pray you're asking someone for help (deity in whatever form) - when you do a spell or ritual you are effecting your energy to do it. Deity will only help if it's needed, you might be forcing the issue (see a and b)

just my 2 cents.

If you really want to help, you can try that healing well thing, or you can ask to do healing magick. For instance I asked my dad if we could light candles and pray for him, and he was thankful for that (and we did pray, btw, we didn't force energy).

[Rick]

Um, OK... if you prayed specifically for healing/recovery from the illness, then technically you were forcing/directing energy... if you prayed for a Deity's 'will be done regardless of outcome', then you weren't forcing/directing energy...

That's kinda the thing with this issue... I really can't find a 'black-&-white, cut-&-dried" to it, only varying shades of gray... which is precisely why it's important to explore every facet (& opinion) of it... (& why I revive the thread every so often :T )

PAX

[Myst]

Hm yeah I agree. Good point.

Anyway, I go by the other things I mentioned. :D

[Laiste]

Myst I totally understand where you are coming from. Perhaps I should have clarified my answer to this thread...when i "help someone" magically I send positive energies thier way, whether they be for strength during a tough time or whatever. Kind of like the "healing well" idea. As far as the binding spells that I have done...I was not ticked off at the person...I was in danger and needed to protect myself and my family from those involved. I would never do a binding spell motivated by anger.

[Myst]

I didn't mean to suggest you did a binding spell for anger, but I can imagine if you needed to protect yourself from that person you weren't too happy with them, right? The point is in that situation, regardless of your reason, a binding spell isn't done for the good will of the person you're doing it on, so you don't really care what they think. Whereas, with a healing spell, etc., you might care what the person thinks.

[Laiste]

Gotcha Myst!;) :) I know what your saying.

[Lavender]

Good point, Myst! You have a great way with words! :D That was exactly what I thought when I did the mirror spell on the bullies.

[The Mad Vitiki]

look at it this way let say you have a messy bed room and whith out you permission a firend comes over and starts cleaning you bed room is this right or wrong ????

[Rick]

Originally posted by The Mad Vitiki
look at it this way let say you have a messy bed room and whith out you permission a firend comes over and starts cleaning you bed room is this right or wrong ????

Hehehe... depends whether I can find my stuff later... :T

[Flar's Freyja]

Bump

[Silverfern]

Don't mean to sound stupid but whats the bump about??

I believe that theres a path for everyone to live, by changing that path A person might miss a very unpleasant expierience but they also miss that really nice thing that was next in line!

Although my life could have started so much better I woulnt want anyone to change it My friends often ask me how I managed to keep my sanity ( I dont :D )
My point is if someone had messed with my life I might have missed out on those very precious moments that make my life!

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Silverfern
Don't mean to sound stupid but whats the bump about??

I believe that theres a path for everyone to live, by changing that path A person might miss a very unpleasant expierience but they also miss that really nice thing that was next in line!

Although my life could have started so much better I woulnt want anyone to change it My friends often ask me how I managed to keep my sanity ( I dont :D )
My point is if someone had messed with my life I might have missed out on those very precious moments that make my life!

We type "bump" when we want to bump a thread to the top of the forum so that someone can find it, or to bring up an older topic so that we can discuss it again.

Bumping for a new member today :)

[adament]

i had a situation come up....and wanted ya'lls opinions...

is it ethical to cast a love spell on yourself?....here's the deal

my hubby is soooooo ill and as a result, he's very angry all the time...told me not to "do any weird witch shit" (his words not mine) and refuses counciling...living with him the past 1 1/2 years since his diagnosis is like living with a bottle of poison or a snake (sorry steve irwin LOL)

so i had wanted to cast a love spell on myself, thinking that if my feelings for him deepened, i'd have more patience...i've since decided not to but...just wondered if ya'll thought there was anything wrong with that....i don't think so but have made some really poor choices lately and just wanted some input....

i really really love ya'll and ya'll have NO idea how much comfort i find here:)

adament

[Flar's Freyja]

I am against casting love spells for any reason, period, but you could ask the Goddess Isis to step in and help salvage your relationship. She represents long-term commitment, devotion and keeping relationships sacred. She can help couples reconnect.

There are also many things you can do on the mundane level to salvage your relationship, even if it means leaving for a while.

When you say "diagnosis," are you referring to a mental illness? Is he on medication and cooperating with the necessary follow-up treatment? Is he taking his medication? Is it possible for you to attend the appointments with him?

If this is the case and he does not accept that he has a mental illness and refuses to take medication, it truly might be necessary for you to leave until he gets to this point. The prognosis for improvement is very poor when the person refuses help.

What help are you getting for yourself? Are there support groups in your area? Are you utilizing your friends, family, etc? You might need to focus more on making sure that you take care of yourself right now and get professional help.

I'll also bump up the magickal ethics thread for you.

[Flar's Freyja]

bump for Adament

[adament]

he is waiting for a liver transplant...and suffers from diabetes as well...

so i work my full time job, run our small company at night, spend weekends doing paperwork and attend all doctors appointments with him...he just refuses to take anti-depressants (sp?)...he wouldn't take ANY medication if i didn't pitch a fit...his family has their own problems but help out by doing things like hiring a houskeeper for me, mowing the lawn etc...

like i said, i decided NOT to do a spell...but the situation made me wonder...

[Flar's Freyja]

Oh boy :(

You do have your plate full. Again, it might be best to do some spell or ritual work for yourself for the patience and strength needed to live with this.

It sounds like he absolutely forbade you to do any magick for him and I know how hard it is to resist doing healing magick for someone who doesn't want it, especially when it's someone that you love.

My thinking is that if you do the magick for yourself, the other things will fall into place, so I'd do some work to protect and nurture yourself as well as utilizing the supports that you have on the mundane level. Sadly, we can't help anyone who doesn't want our help or to help themelves.

((((Adament))))

And we're here if you need to vent.

[Rick]

...check out Practical Rune Magic II in the stuck thread above... if you burn a candle with a Runic healing spell carved into it, & some of the energy released by it is "accidentally" absorbed by your husband ('cuz he's in the same house & all), well, that'd hardly be your fault, now, would it? ;)

[Mad Moya]

Regarding the anti-depressants...

Anti-depressants are not "happy pills." They won't make him feel artificially giddy. What they do is address chemical imbalances in the brain that make us over-react to certain things on an emotional level instead of a logical level. Some also regulate sleep patterns.

I literally did not sleep for more than two hours at a time for over three years. That kind of lack of sleep has devastating effects on a person. Not only was I incapable of completing basic sentences, my memory was severely impaired, and I literally couldn't think straight. After taking anti-depressants for a few nights, it was like I'd awoken from a long, foggy dream

I also take daytime anti-depressants, but I'm not sure they're working as well as I'd like. But the doctors and I are still tweaking the dosages of my medications (pain-killers too), so hopefully I can be a well-balanced crazy person again!

Let him know (or look it up himself at rxlist.com for his particular drugs), that anti-depressants are not a kind of artificial stimulant, they simply attempt to put the brain's chemicals back in balance. Also, let him know that a few days after he gets on them, as his body starts to adjust to them, he will have a period of several hours where he may get extremely paranoid or anxious. It happens every time we switch my drugs to try something else. Knowing it's going to happen helps me deal with it when it does happen, so I don't go screaming through the streets. :)

Good luck, Mad Moya

[golden_dawn_athena]

In my own personal experience, I have helped people without their prior knowledge... but it was to save their life. See, I am connected (spiritually) to this guy whom I love to death! He is my soulmate.. I guess that is why we are so close. We understand what is going on with each other, and we know when the other is in great danger. I don't think it's a bad thing to help someone. I know that you are all aware that by helping we are not supposed to harm anyone... and I don't think the consequences will be bad as long as you think that it's right. If you have doubts, like other things, it's probably not a good idea. But that's just me. I use my own judgement before I take the leap and help out... if I think it might come back on me in a bad way, I'll go to the person and see if I can help in other ways besides magically. But no matter what anyone ever says, there is always to help someone in need.

[Flar's Freyja]

:wave: Merry Meet and Welcome, golden_dawn_athena!

[Flar's Freyja]

bump

[Lunacie]

Here is one thing I have learned from taking Reiki One classes. Before, when I was doing what I called psychic healing, I would try to sense where the body or spirit was blocked or damaged and would try to direct the healing energy to go there (with permission). My Reiki master told me that the energy knows where it is needed and all I have to do is to be a conduit for the energy. And if the person is not willing to accept the energy then it simply returns to the Universe (or the healing well) until it is needed.

I still ask 99 % of the time if the person wants the energy before I send it out, but for the tiny fraction of the time when I cannot or do not want to ask, then I send the energy to be used as needed if the person is willing to accept it, and to be returned to the Universe if it is not wanted or accepted.

As far as a mirror spell or a binding, I would only take such a big step in my own self-defense, if I were personally affected, or if one of my grandchildren was affected (they are only 1 and 5 years old). Otherwise it's really none of my business. Although it's not always easy to convince myself of that.

[cydira]

I'm finding this thread to be facinating. I'm a little disappointed that I found it so late. But I guess that's what I get for being off line for almost a year. :p

That aside, I am impressed with the depth of thought that is behind the opinions expressed here and the ... maturity in the discussion. It reminds me just why I enjoy being a member of this community and restores some of my faith in my fellow members of humanity.

Now, I see people separating magic and other energy work into positive and negative, like some kind of positive charge vs. negative charge in static electricity. I'm also seeing that the trend is to argue that positive is good and negative is bad, in most cases. I'm inclined to disagree.

I see magic and any other form of energy work as neutral. Positive and negative are qualifiers that we place on it to try to gage the different results. In my mind, positive equals an increase in something. This is not always a good thing, cancer is a result of an increase in cells and in cell mutations, last I checked that's not a terribly good thing for one's health. How ever, just as an increase is not always good, a decrease is not always bad. A decrease in a feaver is a good thing for your health, though the feelings associated with a breaking feaver are sometimes more uncomfortable then the feaver itself (at least, that's been my experience).

The good and bad aspects that result from magic are a combination of our intent and how they are viewed. I believe that on a "universal" scale, the amount of good and bad in the world is relatively balanced. It doesn't mean that we're free from having to be ethically responcible or that there is nothing that is good or bad in the world. It means, in my eyes, that magic, like the world, simply exists and must be accepted at face value, with out any false pretences of good or bad/positive or negative attachments.

The ethical questions that arise in the practice of magic can be applied to virtually any and all other situations where one must take action. My personal perpective requires for me to act within a set of rules that outline what I know as honorable behavior. If my action is honorable, then it will be ethical. However, if I must choose between something that can potentially dishonor me in the eyes of others who have a similar perspective and what I know as right, then I will suffer dishonor to do what is right.

I also believe that we must allow our ethical perspective to be fluid and to adapt as we experience more in our lives. I don't think we'd be fair to ourselves if we didn't allow ourselves the opportunity to grow. Aside from that, the whole question of "what is the right thing to do?" is really at the heart of this discussion.

I'd argue that we're all reading too much into this. Even myself. If we walked up to a group of preschoolers and elementary students, they would be giving us a lesson on ethics. It's been repeatedly shown in studies that adults and young adults will tend to over analyze their answers to the question "What is the right thing to do?". That over analyzing is what gets us in the end, in my opinion. All of this posturing aside, my answer to that very basic question is simple, the right thing to do is to respect others and treat them as you would be treated.

It may sound like a rather patented answer, but if you look down through the specialized language of virtually every religion, every philosophical doctrine, that's the same basic answer that you find. It's not "xyz is wrong/unethical because God/Goddess/my parents/the law/etc. says it is wrong". It's "xyz is wrong because it is something that I would not want done to me and it is disrespectful of the person it would be done to."

There's my 2 cents.

[Myrddyn Emrys]

Originally posted by cydira


Now, I see people separating magic and other energy work into positive and negative, like some kind of positive charge vs. negative charge in static electricity. I'm also seeing that the trend is to argue that positive is good and negative is bad, in most cases. I'm inclined to disagree.

I see magic and any other form of energy work as neutral. Positive and negative are qualifiers that we place on it to try to gage the different results.


As I always teach my students, Magick is merely a tool, such as the electricity that is connected to your house. One cannot say that it is good or bad. If you were to stick a butterknife into an electrica socket in your home, because you got shocked, is the electricity bad? No, it was your intent that was in error, not the electricity. Good and bad (i.e. positive=good and negative=bad) are merely human terms. I agree with Cydria, positive CAN Equal bad and negative can be good. Another way to phrase the "poles" of magick would be "Additive and Subrtactive" . I feel this is more accurate terminlogy.


Myrddyn Emrys
:nyah:

[Flar's Freyja]

Old habits die hard.........I noticed that there are several questions in the forum about ethics, so I thought I'd bump up a classic, which can also be found in The Mystic Wicks Book of Shadows (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21667)

[Rain Gnosis]

*bump* excellent thread folks, very timely.

[Flar's Freyja]

Originally posted by Rain Gnosis

*bump* excellent thread folks, very timely.

;)

[Seamus MacNemi]

Halsa Brother,
My own feeling on the matter of helping another even against His/Her will is that we are often obligated to do so. But that depends entirely upon the circumstance. Sometimes the best way to help is not to intervene in the workings of Karma. Such as when a friend deliberately violates a Clan code despite having been warned ( I''m not talking about the KKK) Or when an individual attempts to subvert a Gheas regardless of reason. There are some things that we are absolutely not allowed to do regardless of instinct or personal feeling. One such absolute prohibition that I can think of off hand is to violate the sanctity of the Womans Mystery. The consequence of such a transgression is death regardless.

[Niah]

If one applies karma as a system of universal balance, just as in one of the laws of physics: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, then any willful act has an affect on someone or something against its will. My conscious decision to drive my vehicle to work everyday has a direct effect on many things/people (atmosphere & air quality, the possibility of causing an accident and so on) and such effects can and do interfere with another's free will. Here, I concur that it is then more of a question of intent.

I am of a tradition that adheres to the willingness to accept personal responsibility for any willful act, magickal or otherwise. So, if it were my children in need of anything, yes I would do it without question and be ready to accept the outcome, of course after caferful and thoughtful consideration of those possible results. Likewise, if my family is in any sort of danger, I would also act accordingly after exhausting mundane resources first.

[Rick]

bump

[Seamus MacNemi]

May your shield arm not fail you
may your blade be swift and strong
May Odins wind fill you sail
may your journey be not long

[Seamus MacNemi]

I pride myself on being one of Odins Crows
I am often told that I am a storm crow bringing bad news
But I often see what others don't want or refuse to see
and so I can often make them aware of the dangers or difficulties that await them.
I was born under the sigh of Saturn which is represented by the rune
Naudiz,ie. Nied, need or necessity. All of my life, that particular rune has been my teacher and guide. I have had a hard life. But I would not trade my path for that of anyone else. As the saying goes:" What is a soul if it is not as steel, forged in the fires of adversity"?

[Kalika]

I agree with Rick. I intend to take care of me and mine, regardless of being asked. And I am prepared to deal with the consequences in doing so.

And it harm none - I think is only REALLY a fair call if the other party/parties involved are cauing no harm. Too tired to go too much into that right now. :)

Blessings,

Kalika

[Seamus MacNemi]

I never inferred that I would disagree with you. All I said was that you should take care in the weaving of your spells. Magic is like a chemistry set. The wrong mix could ( spell ) disaster.
:lol:

[Kalika]

I never inferred that I would disagree with you. All I said was that you should take care in the weaving of your spells. Magic is like a chemistry set. The wrong mix could ( spell ) disaster.
:lol:

I agree!

[Seamus MacNemi]

I was just thinking today about magical symbols :hmmmmm: and I happened to look at the smilies sheet. Imediately the picture flashed in my mind:
:farmerjoe: :ballonsmi: :flamer: :fishtank: Earth Air fire water

[Rick]

Bump

[Seamus MacNemi]

I find my self in agreement with your first statement at the beginning of this thread. As a man, I would not be loathe to come to the aid of my kinsman regardless of whether he asked or not. It would be my duty and a curse upon the honor of my house if I did not.
As it is seen from the point of view of my own folk, a man is his brothers keeper. If one withholds his hand from aiding his neighbor, then he blots the fate of his own household.
A man would be indeed a fool to think otherwise.
A great many of my folk live in small villages and make their living from fishing and small farming. It has been amongst us that upon the occaisiom
there would be accidents and sometimes disasters that struck the heart of the whole community. At such times there were none who could even think to withhold his/her hand
from giving aid to those in need. It was not a matter of asking, no one even thought to ask in such circumstances.
Never has there been amongst us one who went without clothing or food, a good bed or the companionship of freinds :lol:

[Rick]

bump

[BlackMadonna]

What does everyone think about using magical means to aid someone without that person's permission or knowledge, expressed or implied? Is this right or wrong? And let's take this further than "and it harm none". What are the moral & ethical ramifications of using magic in someone's behalf without their knowing? What if failing to do so leaves them in grave peril?

Everyday, on the freeway, I constantly use magic on people without their permission. Most often it is in the phrase 'may you get what you so richly deserve', which is a whole lot better than what I used to wish upon them. I also tag them if they are driving erratically, with psychic bells and whistles to attrack the attention of other drivers, especially police officers.
If someone close to me is in need of aid, I try to get permission, but for the times I can't, I do a spell with the caveot that the energy is there should they chose to use it.

[~Elise~]

Discussions around this household have been very interesting of late. Rick and I have different views on some ethics regarding magic and the same on others. I can tell now that the next few years will not be boring, in the least.

Protection for friends or family - in less than a heartbeat, and have...just ask my son or members of my group.
Healing for same - same answer. As a Reiki Master--I do ask for healing to be for highest good, at times--there have also been times I have been backed off by a person's guides and told they had lessons to learn.
Love spells-- hmm--I tend to come down on the side of not interfering, but can ALSO see the other side, as well. (have practiced both sides in the past--and the interfering side always came back to bite me.)
I consider binding spells to be part of protection--but I have excelled in these.
Banishings--have had to do this as well--(hence my dislike of Oujia-type boards being used by JUST anybody not understanding what they are dealing with.)
Exorcism work has been done as well...I still consider this a form of protection work, though.

JMO and YMMV

Elise

[Mau]

Well, I don't really follow any rules or laws...but I'll watch my karma ;)
For me, it would take some thinking. It would depend on the situation. I believe in Fate. And it's hard to say what is and isn't someone's fate sometimes. Perhaps it would be Fate that I changed an aspect of their life in turn changing their path. Of course, there's always the possibility that acting on my part would interfere with their fate, and throw them off course. But then it all depends on your views on fate, how big is it, how much is already predetermined..and can Fate even be manipulated mundanely or magically?
As I said, I would consider all options...but if I felt it was important that I do what I can to change something..whether or not that person knows it, I would do it without fear or guilt.

[zakzekezedd]

My own ethics stand--I will do magic to aid and protect myself and those I love. I will not do magic with the intent to harm another. I will not do magic that involves manipulating another's will, unless it is necessary to protect myself or others. I don't think it is a good practice to work magic for another without their permission or knowledge, but I also accept that there are times when it may be necessary. If I feel compelled to do a certain thing, then I accept the fact that "someone" is putting the knowledge in my mind and directing my actions for a specific reason.

[Romani Vixen]

I have to agree with Vinga. We all have our own paths to follow. If someone else performs a spell on us without our knowing, that could change our path and possibly cause us to miss a lesson that needed to be learned. If we were to consent to the spell and missed the lesson, it would still be our own doing... our own path.
If we are meant to learn that lesson, we will.

[blackroseivy]

I sure that you-all have seen the "hate love-spells" thread; very much the crux of the arguement. How much manipulation is too much? It's a question we all ask from time to time. I myself have sustained major damage (as I explained in that thread) by messing with someone's free will; I sure have learned my lesson!

[~Elise~]

:bumpsmili

[Salanthos]

for a healing, I would get permission, but if impossible, I would send energy saying 'if the person accepts, let it help'. as for binding, If I see someone doing harm I will try to stop it. my beleif is that if it was meant to happen for whatever reason, if it was karma, I couldn't interfere anyway. If the Gods didn't want me to try to stop whatever, I wouldn't have learned of it.

[HMoonwolf]

Magical Ethics is basically guide to being responsible when using magick.
'An it harms none, Do as ye will' is a good rule to follow, however this also includes lack of action as well as action. Remember every action (and lack of action) has a reaction. It's not good enough to have a good intent. If your magick is going to effect another, You better make sure you know what your doing. If you feel you must do something, it may be best to use magick as a last resort. If their is a mundane solution try that first. The only magick I would do right away is to ask the divine for guidance.

[~Elise~]

Hey, ya'll, how ya'll doin'?

What does everyone think about using magical means to aid someone without that person's permission or knowledge, expressed or implied? Is this right or wrong? And let's take this further than "and it harm none". What are the moral & ethical ramifications of using magic in someone's behalf without their knowing? What if failing to do so leaves them in grave peril?

OK, my 2 cents worth (remember, I am an Odinsman; I see the world a little differently than most). I take care of my own. I could no more stand idly by if a loved one needed help (magically) than I could will myself to stop breathing. It's pretty automatic (the effort comes in NOT acting, sometimes). And I can't truly say that I always stop to consider the consequences (and, of course, there are ALWAYS consequences-my, but don't we give that word a negative feel?). But I've learned to trust my instincts/Divine guidance/etc.

Well, come on, everybody, jump on in here.

bumping to renew the discussion...

Elise

[Sage Rainsong]

I tend to not ask for permission if I feel that it is really needed. If someone were about to be hit by a car and you could stop it, I would hope that one wouldn't ask if they wanted to be saved. However unless the spell is essential to their health or safety I probably would ask for their permission because otherwise it seems intrusive.

[Philosophia]

It depends on the situation. If I feel that healing is defiantly warrented, I will do it without their permission. Otherwise I wouldn't do it unless they wanted it. I've also made a promise to my Goddess that I will defend and protect any of my loved ones if I feel they are being attacked. If that means by using magick, I will. This is a vow I take very seriously.

[dolphinfire30]

I think it all comes down to the intensions behind the spell. If your intentions are for good then by all means do it if you feel in your heart you are doing the right thing. Especially if it is to prevent harm from being done.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Well, it's a complicated issue and I doubt I could give any definitive answers unless faced with a specific situation but my general answer is 'no, I wouldn't do it cus it's wrong.'


If you fully believe in what this story says about 'not interfering' - wouldn't you just not engage in any magickal workings at all?